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Yoda and Darth Sidious


BrandonSM

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Now, I heard multiple times from multiple posters on the old forums(Pre-Wipe) that Yoda was the most powerful Force User Until Skywalker stated by GL or LucasArts. Every time I asked for evidence.. I was either ignored, passed by or whatever. The reason I asked for Evidence was because in my opinion and my evidence of Episode 3, that Sidious was a more powerful Force User than Yoda.

 

In Episode 3, though it was an extremely close fight, Sidious defeated Yoda. That is canon. I mean was Yoda no longer in his prime during this time? Or is the statement of Yoda being the most powerful Force User before Luke not true and it is myth?

 

 

 

Because how I see my List.

 

1. Luke Skywalker

2. Abeloth(Here is a difficult decision. Until I see Abeloth do something that can truly defeat or surpass Luke, I am putting her under Luke)

3. Sidious

4. Yoda

 

 

 

Help?!?

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my opinion on this is that yoda is more in tune with the force than darth sideous but darth sideous is more powerful than yoda because of his enhanced darkside abilities. also remember that it was technically impossible for yoda to defeat darth sideous, because anakin was supposed to do it later to complete the great prophecy thingy. side note, technically, vader should be on your list somewhere because he had more mitichlorians than any jedi seen before, making him a powerful contendor. Edited by Meluna
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my opinion on this is that yoda is more in tune with the force than darth sideous but darth sideous is more powerful than yoda because of his enhanced darkside abilities. also remember that it was technically impossible for yoda to defeat darth sideous, because anakin was supposed to do it later to complete the great prophecy thingy. side note, technically, vader should be on your list somewhere because he had more mitichlorians than any jedi seen before, making him a powerful contendor.

 

Don't say the M word you fool!!! You'll attract....the fanboys....... :eek:

Edited by Meluna
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my opinion on this is that yoda is more in tune with the force than darth sideous but darth sideous is more powerful than yoda because of his enhanced darkside abilities. also remember that it was technically impossible for yoda to defeat darth sideous, because anakin was supposed to do it later to complete the great prophecy thingy. side note, technically, vader should be on your list somewhere because he had more mitichlorians than any jedi seen before, making him a powerful contendor.

 

Midichlorians is not the same as power. It just means how powerful you can become. It basically means you have more potential with more midichlorians. But Anakin lost more than half of his potential when he became cybernetic and therefore wasn't as strong as he should have been. And Luke became what Anakin could have been. The Almighty Mortal God of Star Wars.

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"Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chambers, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two entered into a spectacular duel -- a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force's light and dark sides. The Emperor proved too powerful to defeat. Though Yoda held his own for much of the duel, in the end, the Sith bested him. He realized that directly confronting the Sith would be doomed to failure. Defeated, Yoda slinked away into the shadows of the Senate chamber's cavernous depths, leaping into a waiting getaway speeder piloted by Bail Organa."

 

This was taken from Leland Chee himself. Sidious was more powerful than Yoda. Yoda realized that directly facing Sidious was doomed to failure. It also states that Sidious was too powerful for him to defeat. Nowhere does it state that Yoda wasn't in his prime. It pretty much comes down to this. Yoda may be the most powerful Jedi pre-Luke. However, Sidious was simply a more powerful Sith. If you watch the scenes you'll notice that except in two instances it almost seemed as if Sidious was playing with him. The only two times he seemed worried was when he was being pushed back in a saber lock and also when Yoda was absorbing his force lightning.

Edited by Rhyltran
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lol i was thinking about this in this very moment and was about to search for some thing about this here in the forums and then it is the top topic lol

 

hahha

 

well i belive sidious is more powerfull then yoda for sure.

 

but luck is the allmight ? really? i think i need to read thouse books about the future of Luck ^^

 

What about Darth Bane? with his orbalisks to shield him from damage and give him alot of chemicals to make him stronger?

 

he is a very powerfull Darth Lord.

 

lol :)

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"Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chambers, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two entered into a spectacular duel -- a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force's light and dark sides. The Emperor proved too powerful to defeat. Though Yoda held his own for much of the duel, in the end, the Sith bested him. He realized that directly confronting the Sith would be doomed to failure. Defeated, Yoda slinked away into the shadows of the Senate chamber's cavernous depths, leaping into a waiting getaway speeder piloted by Bail Organa."

 

This was taken from Leland Chee himself. Sidious was more powerful than Yoda.

 

Thank you.

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Thank you.

 

No problem. I edited my post with more info. Notice in the saber duel between Sidious and Windu when Sidious was being forced back the entire time he seemed very unhappy. If it was his personally not to take things seriously he'd be smiling and laughing during that too but he isn't. It's also been confirmed that Sidious did lose the lightsaber bout with mace but that's understandable given that's Mace windu's strongest element. In revenge of the sith it stated that just before Sidious stopped with the lightning Windu was going to lose his grip on his saber.

 

So.. it goes like this..

 

Sidious saber combat < Windu's saber combat.

 

Sidious Saber skill = Yoda's saber skill

 

Sidious use of the force > Both Windu and Yoda.

 

Note during Windu's duel with Sidious he gave himself more fully to his form Vaapad than ever before. He tapped into what he was afraid would corrupt him. Making him far more powerful than before. It's likely in that moment in his duel with Sidious Windu was truly at his best and most likely rivaled Yoda at that specific point. Maybe even stronger for the moment. I believe (and this part is speculation) if he did win against Sidious he probably would have fallen at that point.

Edited by Rhyltran
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There are other things going on in that fight. Yoda wasn't trying to Sidious, Sidious was in fact trying to kill Yoda, Also, Yoda was more in tuned with the Force then Sidious was, and at the time of the fight, the force was EXTREMELY unbalanced and going hay-wire (you know, the systematic slaughtering of the jedi across the galaxy messing with it. Also Yoda was not in his prime, that was about 2-3 hundred years ago. The Guy couldn't get around day to day with out a cane, let alone be prepared to face one of the most powerful Sith in the last two thousand years. Finally Yoda was on a time table, he had to beat Sidious quickly, and that changed a lot of his actions. He couldn't really have a fight like the one he had with Douku. Sidious was obviously not the most powerful. Mace Windu owned him in like 3 shots, if Anakin hadn't surprised him he'd probably could take Anakin, and Mace thought himself less then Yoda.
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There are other things going on in that fight. Yoda wasn't trying to Sidious, Sidious was in fact trying to kill Yoda, Also, Yoda was more in tuned with the Force then Sidious was, and at the time of the fight, the force was EXTREMELY unbalanced and going hay-wire (you know, the systematic slaughtering of the jedi across the galaxy messing with it. Also Yoda was not in his prime, that was about 2-3 hundred years ago. The Guy couldn't get around day to day with out a cane, let alone be prepared to face one of the most powerful Sith in the last two thousand years. Finally Yoda was on a time table, he had to beat Sidious quickly, and that changed a lot of his actions. He couldn't really have a fight like the one he had with Douku. Sidious was obviously not the most powerful. Mace Windu owned him in like 3 shots, if Anakin hadn't surprised him he'd probably could take Anakin, and Mace thought himself less then Yoda.

 

No. Yoda was trying to kill Sidious. That was the mission. He was supposed to destroy Sidious whereas Obi Wan was supposed to destroy Anakin. Proof is that when he said he couldn't. He told Yoda he couldn't do it and Yoda said he's no longer the apprentice he knew. The force was unbalanced from Sidious alone. Sidious was so powerful that the dark side was clouding everything. It was his power alone that was doing it. Windu's duel with Sidious was long. You forget it cuts off and goes to another scene. It wasn't quick and it's confirmed in Canon windu would have died anyway. Windu defeated Sidious in saber combat. Note Yoda has been known to tie Windu. So Windu = Yoda usually and considering he tapped into Vaapad further than he ever has before that would put Windu above Yoda in saber combat.

 

Note that while you point out there are other factors it doesn't change that Sidious didn't look happy in his duel with Mace. He seemed frustrated and worried. He seemed to be having FUN fighting Yoda. Not to mention it's been confirmed. Leland Chee has stated Sidious proved too powerful. Therefore, Sidious is more powerful than Yoda. You can claim Yoda was in his prime a few hundred years ago but we don't know this. While he was old he could still tap into the force and allow himself to move acrobatically. Through age often comes wisdom and learning of new techniques.

 

It's why even in life old masters have defeated younger students. While the younger students are quicker, more fit, stronger, and more agile it's the knowledge and experience that allowed the Veteran to win out.

Edited by Rhyltran
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No problem. I edited my post with more info. Notice in the saber duel between Sidious and Windu when Sidious was being forced back the entire time he seemed very unhappy. If it was his personally not to take things seriously he'd be smiling and laughing during that too but he isn't. It's also been confirmed that Sidious did lose the lightsaber bout with mace but that's understandable given that's Mace windu's strongest element. In revenge of the sith it stated that just before Sidious stopped with the lightning Windu was going to lose his grip on his saber.

 

So.. it goes like this..

 

Sidious saber combat < Windu's saber combat.

 

Sidious Saber skill = Yoda's saber skill

 

Sidious use of the force > Both Windu and Yoda.

 

Note during Windu's duel with Sidious he gave himself more fully to his form Vaapad than ever before. He tapped into what he was afraid would corrupt him. Making him far more powerful than before. It's likely in that moment in his duel with Sidious Windu was truly at his best and most likely rivaled Yoda at that specific point. Maybe even stronger for the moment. I believe (and this part is speculation) if he did win against Sidious he probably would have fallen at that point.

 

To be honest. I think Windu's saber skills are 2nd to Luke Skywalker if not equal. Especially after Shatterpoint and we go into detail on Vapaad. He rivaled Yoda and Count Dooku(During Jedi years) and he couldn't even do his best against the two sparring because Vapaad is at its best against dark side users. It channeled the user and the opponents inner darkness.

 

To add on to that, Mace's ability with Shatterpoint made him unstoppable in dueling. And, he mastered all the other Forms.

 

 

My opinion of course.

 

 

My opinion of course.

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To be honest. I think Windu's saber skills are 2nd to Luke Skywalker if not equal. Especially after Shatterpoint and we go into detail on Vapaad. He rivaled Yoda and Count Dooku(During Jedi years) and he couldn't even do his best against the two sparring because Vapaad is at its best against dark side users. It channeled the user and the opponents inner darkness.

 

To add on to that, Mace's ability with Shatterpoint made him unstoppable in dueling. And, he mastered all the other Forms.

 

 

My opinion of course.

 

 

My opinion of course.

 

No. I completely agree with you. Factor in that while it's at it's best against Dark Side users and then combine that in the duel with Sidious he gave himself fully to it in their duel. As soon as he fell Lucas states in the commentary "This is where Sidious loses his duel.." it's Canon that Windu did defeat Sidious in saber combat. Considering Sidious mastered all the forms but one.. that's pretty impressive. Many people are quick to toss Mace aside like he's much weaker than Yoda but don't realize that Windu might have been, in that moment, even more powerful than Yoda or at the very least his equal.

Edited by Rhyltran
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Personally I'm an Obi Wan Kenobi fanboy and lucky for me there's a lot of books on him. Lol

 

I haven't read much on him. I haven't read ROTS in 1-2 years.

 

 

I know, he's the master of Soresu, got one of the most strongest Force Pushes of his time and Anakin managed to match it in their duel on Mustafar. Had a small relationship with Satine, was a master negotiator and so on and so on from the movies and cartoons. I'll have to demo a chapter of one of his novels next time I'm at Barnes.

 

 

Anyway back on topic.

 

So this discussion is settled, Sidious was more powerful than Yoda. Thanks for the information.

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It would depend... Yoda absorbed most of his attacks lol.. He got lucky with that fight. Fact of the matter is. It would depend on the situation. Like Bane for example... he was smart. he would not fight someone unless he knew the odds were in his favor.

 

Everything is calculated on the current situation. Making it really hard to judge who would win.

Edited by Newsinz
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It would depend... Yoda absorbed most of his attacks lol.. He got lucky with that fight. Fact of the matter is. It would depend on the situation. Like Bane for example... he was smart. he would not fight someone unless he knew the odds were in his favor.

 

Everything is calculated on the current situation. Making it really hard to judge who would win.

 

Yoda didn't win that fight...

 

 

 

 

Whenever Bane fought it always seemed like he was outnumbered, and then he would kill everyone in the room..

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It would depend... Yoda absorbed most of his attacks lol.. He got lucky with that fight. Fact of the matter is. It would depend on the situation. Like Bane for example... he was smart. he would not fight someone unless he knew the odds were in his favor.

 

Everything is calculated on the current situation. Making it really hard to judge who would win.

 

There is no such thing as luck. A quote from Obi Wan Kenobi.

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"Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chambers, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two entered into a spectacular duel -- a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force's light and dark sides. The Emperor proved too powerful to defeat. Though Yoda held his own for much of the duel, in the end, the Sith bested him. He realized that directly confronting the Sith would be doomed to failure. Defeated, Yoda slinked away into the shadows of the Senate chamber's cavernous depths, leaping into a waiting getaway speeder piloted by Bail Organa."

 

This was taken from Leland Chee himself. Sidious was more powerful than Yoda. Yoda realized that directly facing Sidious was doomed to failure. It also states that Sidious was too powerful for him to defeat. Nowhere does it state that Yoda wasn't in his prime. It pretty much comes down to this. Yoda may be the most powerful Jedi pre-Luke. However, Sidious was simply a more powerful Sith. If you watch the scenes you'll notice that except in two instances it almost seemed as if Sidious was playing with him. The only two times he seemed worried was when he was being pushed back in a saber lock and also when Yoda was absorbing his force lightning.

 

^this

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Well I do not much about the Extendet universe and usually do not care much about "commentarys" of any kind, so I'll judge just from what I have seen in the movies...

 

..and here... well. It didnt seem to me that YOda was weaker then Sidious.... they seemed to be prety much en par.

But... since fights cant go on forever, especially in a motion picture, even with two opponents beeing an exact match, sooner or later one must win. May be out of luck, may be because he happened to react in the one critical second better then the other one.

And in that case it was Siddious.

 

To me it is that simple, but if not, there could be a couple of things said to Yodas deffense:

 

- he was old. He died with 900 years a natural death. That fight happened 25?? years before....

Means 25 years before the end of 900 years life span.

- he was exaustet. Palpatine/Siddious did spend the month before sitting arround in his office and playing a little hostage. Yoda fought in the clone wars, yoda fought his way to the Senate... So its doesnt seem that unreasonable that a part of his "resources" were already gone when he fought palpatine.

- he is small. Really. I mean, sure there is that whole message about "size doesnt matter"... but he IS small. He uses the force to OVERCOME that disadvantadges, but they are there. And if he meets and fights someone equaly strong with force that is NOT small, Yoda has to spend more "resources" to do the same thing.

 

And ultimatly: Beeing the "strongest force user" does not mean that his abilitys are conectet to fighting.

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Well I do not much about the Extendet universe and usually do not care much about "commentarys" of any kind, so I'll judge just from what I have seen in the movies...

 

..and here... well. It didnt seem to me that YOda was weaker then Sidious.... they seemed to be prety much en par.

But... since fights cant go on forever, especially in a motion picture, even with two opponents beeing an exact match, sooner or later one must win. May be out of luck, may be because he happened to react in the one critical second better then the other one.

And in that case it was Siddious.

 

To me it is that simple, but if not, there could be a couple of things said to Yodas deffense:

 

- he was old. He died with 900 years a natural death. That fight happened 25?? years before....

Means 25 years before the end of 900 years life span.

- he was exaustet. Palpatine/Siddious did spend the month before sitting arround in his office and playing a little hostage. Yoda fought in the clone wars, yoda fought his way to the Senate... So its doesnt seem that unreasonable that a part of his "resources" were already gone when he fought palpatine.

- he is small. Really. I mean, sure there is that whole message about "size doesnt matter"... but he IS small. He uses the force to OVERCOME that disadvantadges, but they are there. And if he meets and fights someone equaly strong with force that is NOT small, Yoda has to spend more "resources" to do the same thing.

 

And ultimatly: Beeing the "strongest force user" does not mean that his abilitys are conectet to fighting.

 

Sidious was ROTTING from his dark side use. If age is a disadvantage to Yoda. It's a disadvantage to Sidious as well. Not to mention his body degenerating would also be a weakness that counters Yoda's age. He was also using the force just to stay alive. Sidious also hasn't slept ever since he murdered his master because he refuses to die the same way his master did. Sidious power alone was clouding the force and diminishing the jedi's ability to use it.

 

Factor in what I said before. In his fight with Windu? He was frustrated the entire time. In his fight with Yoda? He was laughing and having fun. The first thing I thought, before Lucas and Leland Chee said anything, was that Yoda wasn't being taken seriously. Note also not long ago Sidious fought Mace Windu. So that counters your resources argument. Leland Chee controls Canon. He's the one in charge of controlling it. He said Sidious is more powerful and to me I don't really see anything conflicting that. It makes sense. Considering it was also confirmed Sidious lost his saber duel with mace and we clearly see his facial expressions when losing. He doesn't laugh it off.

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