I am not going to argue with you on this. You are flat out wrong. You are trying to "spin" to "justify" your view. This is at it's heart a subscription game.

Sorry but my statement is pretty simple. By the definition(s) of the anti "pay to win" people, those who subscribe are paying to win. It is my opinion that anyone here who advocates against features that they call "pay to win" is a hypocrit if they subscribe.

Is he being red obtuse or blue obtuse ?

 

Lobscouse, actually.

Sorry but my statement is pretty simple. By the definition(s) of the anti "pay to win" people, those who subscribe are paying to win. It is my opinion that anyone here who advocates against features that they call "pay to win" is a hypocrit if they subscribe.

And your opinion in this case is demonstrably wrong else the counter statement I offerred is "true" which would be ridiculous.

You are wrong because you are assigning "intent". You are also wrong because your view doesn't support the "original rules set" nor the "morphed rules set". If anything my counter example offered in reductio ad absurdum is closer to reality.

So it's been 24 hours, and there is a patch scheduled for Tuesday, but no update or indication that it will address any of this?

One can only surmise that whatever they intend to do will benefit one group greatly, and hit another over the head with a stick, otherwise why not spill the beans already?

Friendly reminder: People are watching this closely and the bulk of subs are up for renewal over the weekend.

This is not P2W Because this is a Mini-Game

They are testing the waters to see what they can get away with. I don't see why you and others can't see this.

Lobscouse, actually.

Well english isn't my primary tongue so I had to look it up on an online dictionnary, here's what I got :

No translation found for 'Lobscouse'.

Did you mean :

• Obscure
  
• Longhouse
  
• Couscous
  
• Hibiscus
  
• Discourse
  
• Luscious
  
• Viscose
  
• Viscous
  
• Libelous
  
• Because
  

This is not P2W Because this is a Mini-Game

Just because it's "mini" doesn't mean you can't win or can't loose : it's still a game...

This is a very dangerous path theyre following and we as subscribers and F2P's + Freemiums need to be aware and raise our voices, so we can be heard in BW.

Reguardless if this method is atm only applyed to a mini-game its still wrong not allowing players to fully buy every single piece of grade 7 on the starship upgrade vendors.

We can argue that this will not put anyone in an advantage position to another player, and in fact it wnt, at least in a direct way but the point is that atm u can only buy all pieces of grade 7 for your ship on the cartel market and that is a very dangerous slope. We arent talking about cosmetic gear anymore here, we are referring that you need those g7 gear iot to at least try to complete space combat and alltough it is a mini-game, players can still grab good bucks from this and get BH comms + molecular stabilizers. So we have some paying iot have them and others not paying and not being able to have the same advantages ingame as the buyers. Those completing the space combat missions cause they have grade 7 are having more benefits than those that arent paying cartel coins to have the full gear thus they cant at all complete the new space combat missions. And in that point this is totally unfair.

I dnt like it, i dnt like it at all.

Well english isn't my primary tongue so I had to look it up on an online dictionnary, here's what I got :

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scouse_(food)

And your opinion in this case is demonstrably wrong else the counter statement I offerred is "true" which would be ridiculous.

 

You are wrong because you are assigning "intent". You are also wrong because your view doesn't support the "original rules set" nor the "morphed rules set". If anything my counter example offered in reductio ad absurdum is closer to reality.

Your reply bears no connection to the matter at hand. You can fight it all you want, but the anti-p2w people are the ones who painted themselves into this corner. I'll restate it one more time since you are having difficulty. Subscribing is the equivalent of paying to win (by their own definitions) because it is not required to play the game to the "end" and gives one a number of advantages, conveniences and means of circumvention in exchange for cash.

Your reply bears no connection to the matter at hand. You can fight it all you want, but the anti-p2w people are the ones who painted themselves into this corner. I'll restate it one more time since you are having difficulty. Subscribing is the equivalent of paying to win (by their own definitions) because it is not required to play the game to the "end" and gives one a number of advantages, conveniences and means of circumvention in exchange for cash.

No this is blatenly false. The F2P system as implemented by EAware is a PENALTY SYSTEM. You are PUNISHED for NOT SUBSCRIBING. The blame rests with EAware and EAware alone. Those that subscribe are paying for the features that warrents a subscription. Those that CHOOSE NOT TO PAY by the F2P system EAware has implemented have CHOSEN to INCUR a PENALTY or a DEGRAGED experience for NOT PAYING the subscription.

They CHOSE to be PUNISHED. They have an optioin to avoid the penalties: SUBSCRIBE or play something else.

No this is blatenly false. The F2P system as implemented by EAware is a PENALTY SYSTEM. You are PUNISHED for NOT SUBSCRIBING. The blame rests with EAware and EAware alone. Those that subscribe are paying for the features that warrents a subscription. Those that CHOOSE NOT TO PAY by the F2P system EAware has implemented have CHOSEN to INCUR a penalty or a DEGRAGED experience for NOT PAY the subscription.

You can make that argument, but you are wrong because the core game includes everything that is necessary to proceed from the beginning to the end. That is all available in the F2P game. Everything that a subscriber gains for their cash falls into one of several categories that have been defined (not by me) as p2w features: conveniences, means of circumventing gameplay, and gear. I'm not the one that put them in this position--in their struggle to justify their extreme position they have inadvertantly made themselves guilty of the behavior they claim to abhor.

Please understand that this is not a defense of EA, Bioware, or the Cartel Market. I was happy as a subscriber before F2P happened.

You can make that argument, but you are wrong because the core game includes everything that is necessary to proceed from the beginning to the end. That is all available in the F2P game. Everything that a subscriber gains for their cash falls into one of several categories that have been defined (not by me) as p2w features: conveniences, means of circumventing gameplay, and gear. I'm not the one that put them in this position--in their struggle to justify their extreme position they have inadvertantly made themselves guilty of the behavior they claim to abhor.

 

Please understand that this is not a defense of EA, Bioware, or the Cartel Market. I was happy as a subscriber before F2P happened.

This is false since the subscription model

a) Came First

b) Is actually Preffered by EA.

The F2P is a CHANGE. If anything subscribers should feel outraged that Freeples are getting so much for free. In the end SWTOR won't have a long shelf life. The games strength is "the story". You need never play with another person or utilize any of the common features of an MMORPG to successfully play through this content. You don't need more than 4 action bars, you don't NEED purples, you aren't doing OPS or WZs or Space to complete this content. SWTOR is a trivial game. It is made no harder on the Freeple by having said penalties. The penalties are only for those that want to play the end game for free. The content you keep goin on about DOESN"T NEED ANY OF THE FEATURES THAT YOU A QQing about. YOU DON"T NEED THEM. The SWTOR levling game is SO FREAKING EASY as to be LAUGHABLE. There are NO HARD ENCOUNTERS on the way up to level 50 for ANY class. SWTOR is a "training wheels" MMORPG for harder games. If anyone finds SWTOR hard they really need to think about another hobby.

TL;DR: Again your QQ is baseless. What you are QQing about is not NEEDED to successfully navigate one's way from level 1 to 50 in the leveling game.

This is false since the subscription model

 

a) Came First

b) Is actually Preffered by EA.

The current state of the game with respect to P2W is what is being debated. What came before or may come in the future is not relevant. It makes sense that subscription is what EA would prefer, because they want to collect the 'pay' part of P2W.

The current state of the game with respect to P2W is what is being debated. What came before or may come in the future is not relevant. It makes sense that subscription is what EA would prefer, because they want to collect the 'pay' part of P2W.

But, what you are QQing about is not in line with the content you are using to base your argument. The restrictions in no way restrict one from doing the content that is given away for free. Nothing that is restricted is NEEDED to go from level 1 to 50. If there were restrictions that completely blocked one from going from level 1 to 50 and the content from level 1 to 50 were still given away for free, I might agree with you. But, in reality it's not this way. A Freeple has everything he needs to get from level 1 to 50 unencumbered. If you are QQing because you want to play the end game for free, I have no sympathies for you. I think the restrictions should be even MORE restrictive for people that want to milk the end game for free.

In a way, the game was already pay to win before the space items were put on the market:

My colleague has spent hundreds of dollars on cartel coins because he likes buying cartel packs. He keeps a few of the items he gets but he posts most of the items on the GTN. He's made about 20million credits from this. I pointed out to him that he could take that 20mllion credits and buy lvl63 mods (or the mats for crafting those mods) and become almost fully geared for the hardest PVE content from scratch in a few hours.

Summary: atm the game already contains a pathway from real hard cash to best in slot gear.

In a way, the game was already pay to win before the space items were put on the market:

 

My colleague has spent hundreds of dollars on cartel coins because he likes buying cartel packs. He keeps a few of the items he gets but he posts most of the items on the GTN. He's made about 20million credits from this. I pointed out to him that he could take that 20mllion credits and buy lvl63 mods (or the mats for crafting those mods) and become almost fully geared for the hardest PVE content from scratch in a few hours.

 

Summary: atm the game already contains a pathway from real hard cash to best in slot gear

Completely agree. There was a thread on this and the long term effects on the SWTOR economy.

Completely agree. There was a thread on this and the long term effects on the SWTOR economy.

Yes, is the thread still there? I seem to recall it was deleted, or maybe it was just my post within it that was deleted.

But, what you are QQing about is not in line with the content you are using to base your argument. The restrictions in no way restrict one from doing the content that is given away for free. Nothing that is restricted is NEEDED to go from level 1 to 50. If there were restrictions that completely blocked one from going from level 1 to 50 and the content from level 1 to 50 were still given away for free, I might agree with you. But, in reality it's not this way. A Freeple has everything he needs to get from level 1 to 50 unencumbered. If you are QQing because you want to play the end game for free, I have no sympathies for you. I think the restrictions should be even MORE restrictive for people that want to milk the end game for free.

First, i don't know what QQ means but I don't think I am doing it. I am not complaining about anything, simply pointing out the hypocrisy of those who are shouting about the evil's of F2P, because I would prefer that their opinions not influence the game.

Second, you have misread or misunderstood what I have said. F2P represents the core game precisely because you can play from the beginning to the end. Therefore, paying the subscription fee to gain conveniences and means of circumvention is P2W under the definitions that have been proposed here.

Finally, I am a subscriber, and a user of the cash store. Accusing me of wanting to play the end game for free is incorrect and cannot be inferred from anything I have said.

I love this thread!

 

But...

 

It is clear from what has been said that anyone who subscribes to the game, even if they don't buy anything from the cartel shop, is paying to win. All of the subscriber benefits are unnecessary to get to level 50, therefore they are all convenience items to circumvent various challenges of the "real" game (the F2P game) such as limited hotbars, not being able to equip artifact level gear (a terrible crutch for those who can't play the game anyway), etc.

 

So, everyone who is bemoaning pay to win but is a subscriber is a hypocrit.

Wow you are ever so misguided , You are totally wrong , I subbed before the change in model and I can not even go F2P or preferred as I would lose the use of my many characters , for which i play on a lot. The F2P and preferred models are just dampened down versions of the normal subbed game. Full ( insert a word involving a red liquid ) stop.

I will still stayed subbed as if I didn't I would lose the ability to play the game as I did before. Granted I do get some CC's per month , but as it happens I have to save up those for 4 of my character slots and possibly makeb. So in actual fact I'm worse off now and I lost a level 18 legacy server in the process. So please don't make me laugh.

Cheers,

BadOrb.

First, i don't know what QQ means but I don't think I am doing it. I am not complaining about anything, simply pointing out the hypocrisy of those who are shouting about the evil's of F2P, because I would prefer that their opinions not influence the game.

 

Second, you have misread or misunderstood what I have said. F2P represents the core game precisely because you can play from the beginning to the end. Therefore, paying the subscription fee to gain conveniences and means of circumvention is P2W under the definitions that have been proposed here.

 

Finally, I am a subscriber, and a user of the cash store. Accusing me of wanting to play the end game for free is incorrect and cannot be inferred from anything I have said.

QQ means to complain. And it yes, you are or at least it seems as much. There is no hypocrisy on the part of subscribers. There can't be. We came first. The game was designed to be played in a subscription model. We are getting NOTHING by EAware going F2P. If anything EAware's approach is that we should feel greatful we get to keep the features we have; the alternative is to be penalized via the F2P model. Think about that a moment. What you are saying is that because you don't WANT TO play for a subscription that we the subscribers should be penalized like you are. That is envy. Not only are you jealous but you don't want others to have the advantages you don't have. But, they AREN'T advantages. They represent the NORM. It is not hypocrisy for subscribers to want to keep the features that they have been paying for ALL ALONG. It is the hights of selfishness and envy to say as you say because you don't want or can't pay a subscription. You are being calumnious to subscribers claiming the same to by steeped in hypocrisy. If anything it is you who are in the end a hypocrit.

QQ means to complain. And it yes, you are or at least it seems as much. There is no hypocrisy on the part of subscribers. There can't be. We came first.

Again, I am not complaining simply pointing out some nasty hypocrisy.

I would like to clarify that I am not calling subscribers hypocrits. I am a subscriber and will remain so as long as it is an option. I also pay for CC, so accusing me of wanting something without paying for it is wrong and cannot be inferred from anything I have said. I am calling people who deride what they call "pay to win" while at the same time engaging in functionally equivalent behavior through the act of subscribing, hypocrits.

Edit: Also, this thread is fun.

Again, I am not complaining simply pointing out some nasty hypocrisy.

 

I would like to clarify that I am not calling subscribers hypocrits. I am a subscriber. I am calling people who deride what they call "pay to win" while at the same time engaging in functionally equivalent behavior through the act of subscribing, hypocrits.

 

Edit: Also, this thread is fun.

You are wrong , but you have you opinion. This game is a subscribed game , therefore isn't P2W for subscribers. Not sure why we are talking to him anymore Urael.

Cheers,

BadOrb.