cs_zoltan Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 This thread is an analysis of the golden age of the jedi order's power level, and how it was affected by the Rule of Two. Weakening of the Jedi Order So the gist of the theory is that the jedi during their golden age were weakened (duh). It began 200 years before the clone wars, reaching it's apex at the time of RotS. I hunter down several quotes to support this theory, I'll list them fist and then work out the theory from there: For the past two centuries, however, Yoda has been aware of the gradual re-emergence of the dark side. As the end of the Clone Wars draws near, he forsees that the most significant dangers to the Jedi Order have yet to be faced. —Star Wars Episode III Visual Dictionary That had been the case with the Jedi Order. For two hundred years before the coming of Darth Sidious the power of the dark side had been gaining strength, and yet the Jedi had made only minimal efforts to thwart it. The Sith were pleased by the fact that the Jedi, too, had been allowed to grow so powerful, because, in the end, their sense of entitlement would blind them to what was occurring in their midst. —Labyrinth of Evil One hundred years earlier, Tenebrous's Twi'lek Master had opened a small rend in the fabric of the Force, allowing the dark side to be felt by the Jedi Order for the first time in more than eight hundred years. That had been the inauguration, the commencement of the revenge of the Sith. And now the time had come to enlarge that rend into a gaping hole, a gaping wound, into which the Republic and the Jedi Order would to their own hazard be drawn. —Darth Plagueis Novel “Masking the future is this disturbance in the Force,” Yoda replied. The diminutive Jedi seemed tired. Mace understood well the source of that weariness. “The prophecy is coming true. The dark side is growing.” “And only those who have turned to the dark side can sense the possibilities of the future,” Yoda said. “Only by probing the dark side can we see." “Do you think the Sith are behind this present disturbance?” Mace dared to ask. “Out there, they are,” Yoda said with resignation. “A certainty that is.” —Attack of the Clones novelization “Blind we are, if the development of this clone army we could not see,” Yoda remarked. “I think it is time to inform the Senate that our ability to use the Force has diminished.” “Only the Dark Lords of the Sith know of our weakness,” Yoda replied. “If informed the Senate is, multiply our adversaries will.” For the two Jedi Masters, this surprising development was troubling on several different levels. —Attack of the Clones novelization Such reversals troubled Mace, as they left the Jedi Order unprepared for what was yet to come. Something was clouding the future, and the Order's very connection to the Force was weakening. —Star Wars Fact File #108 The tide of the dark side was proving to be irresistable. —Star Wars Fact File #108 The Rule of the Two was an elaborate plan to defeat the jedi in an unconventional way. It looks like it was even more unconventional than it seemed at first glance. The Sith deliberately saturated the Force with the dark side. As we know dark side sources make it difficult or even impossible for light side users do draw on the Force. The more the dark side took over the weaker the jedi became during this period. The pinnacle of this phenomenon was reached by Darth Sidious. By the time of AotC, even Yoda and Mace was aware that they have been weakened by this dark side disturbance in the force. Sidious' grow of power and the beginning of the Clone Wars probably made this worse by a hunder fold. Sidious himself was so strong that he was a living dark side nexus: And then there was Palpatine, of course: he was beyond power. He showed nothing of what might be within. Though seen with the eyes of the dark side itself, Palpatine was an event horizon. Beneath his entirely ordinary surface was absolute, perfect nothingness. Darkness beyond darkness. A black hole of the Force. —Revenge of the Sith novelization Eager to meet his captor, Luke learned that the dark side nexus he had sensed was none other than the cloned reincarnation of Emperor Palpatine himself. —The New Essential Chronology The key to Luke's turning is the moment when he and Leia realize the Emperor is no longer defined by his physical form, but has become a chaotic nexus of dark energies that swell and burst open the fabric of space, tearing apart everything in the vicinity, human and machine. —Dark Empire Endnotes While two of those quotes refer to DE Sidious, I doubt it's not true for AotC or RotS Sidious. By TPM, Sidious was as strong as his master Plagueis. Plagueis mere presence caused a winter on Naboo. After 10 years of grow in power I don't think it's far fetched that Sidious was strong enough to be a living dark side nexus, like his DE incarnation was. The Clone War's effect on the Jedi: Yoda sensed that the dark side was gathering and growing more powerful. Although he had defeated Dooku for now, it was difficult to imagine what other dark side terrors were to come. —Star Wars Fact File #65 Obi-Wan's heart clenched. This was not the Mace Windu he knew and admired; it was as though the darkness in the Force was so much thicker here on Coruscant that it had breathed poison into Mace's spirit—and perhaps was even breeding suspicion and dissension among the members of the Jedi Council. The greatest danger from the darkness outside came when Jedi fed it with the darkness within. He had feared he might find matters had deteriorated when he returned to Coruscant and the Temple; not even in his darkest dreams had he thought it would get this bad. —Revenge of the Sith novelization With the Jedi Order overextended, spread thin across the galaxy, each Jedi is alone, surrounded only by whatever clone troops he, she, or it commands. War itself pours darkness into the Force, deepening the cloud that limits Jedi perception. And the clones have no malice, no hatred, not the slightest ill intent that might give warning. They are only following orders. —Revenge of the Sith novelization "The Force feels out of balance." - Darth Maul "Yes, there is conflict. The Clone Wars." - Savage Opress So we have the Rule of the Two machinations, Sidious apparent dark side nexus, and the Clone Wars all at the same time. This is an unprecedented stack of weakening effects for the Jedi, something that they never faced before, and never will again. The Jedi have never faced a crisis like the Clone Wars. —Revenge of the Sith novelization The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves. They had become new. While the Jedi— The Jedi had spent that same millennium training to refight the last war. The new Sith could not be destroyed with a lightsaber; they could not be burned away by any torch of the Force. The brighter his light, the darker their shadow. How could one win a war against the dark, when war itself had become the dark's own weapon? —Revenge of the Sith novelization The reason why I started looking is, because while quite some jedi in the PT era has the accolades of being one of the most powerful jedi ever, their feats barely stack up to the claim. Hopefully this thread is sufficient enough to explain why that is. Credits to Aurbere for some of the quotes, as well as helping putting this together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 Very nice work! Also hi. I'm back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted October 19, 2015 Author Share Posted October 19, 2015 Very nice work! Also hi. I'm back Thanks. Also about *********** damn time. Master. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raandomname Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 Very nice work! Also hi. I'm back Nice to see that you are back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 I mean I might only be back for a day, then have a two day break? Sounds weird I know, but I accidentally bought the 180 day recurring sub instead of the one month, and I had to get a refund. Not sure how long it'll take to get through, but I was going to wait on re-subbing until I was sure it had Either way, guess I best try get to the new standalone versus threads while I can.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pantheros Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 (edited) It's pointless to compare PT era Jedi to anything in the EU because the Jedi of the PT era are based on Lucas' vision of the Force, while the Jedi of the EU are based on, well absolutely no consistent idea at all. You are literally comparing a well trained superhuman, with what is essentially an incarnate God. While I agree that the dialogue in the PT was poor, especially compared to the original trilogy, Lucas did have a consistent vision. I cannot stress how important realizing this distinction is in making sense of anything in the Star Wars universe. There is Lucas' vision, and then there is a mish-mash of authors and screenwriters of varying skill levels engaged in oneupsmanship. I mean the most powerful Sith/Jedi/whatever changes from moment to moment in the EU and the ridiculousness of their power grows with every iteration. Lucas envisioned a Force that did not allow individuals to destroy galaxies or lead galactic wide conflicts by ~meditation, whatever. It was far more subtle and mystical, prescience, telekinesis, lightning, strength, endurance, reflexes. It allowed local manipulations of the self and the world around the self, and more importantly this power had limits. I guess you can choose which you like more, but I like Lucas' version. And anyways if you look at the movies, (not the novelizations, god those were bad) the dark side pretty much exclusively effects the ability of the light side to access prescience. It does not effect a Jedi's connection to the living Force, just his access to premonitions granted by the Force. This is undoubtedly important and it was certainly a cornerstone of their ability to maintain peace for a thousand years. In fact, if you guys can step away from comparing "power levels" for like two seconds, you might understand the real tragedy of the Jedi in the PT was that for all their mystical power, they were defeated by mundane politics. Once the imbalance in the force (caused by the clone wars, which were caused by political maneuvering) obfuscated the future, the Jedi were blind to the obvious truth in front of their eyes. Sidious came to power without virtually ever using the Force. He did it almost exclusively through political machination and good old fashioned manipulation. Basically what I'm saying is, is that the endless, circular arguments revolving around who is strongest is completely missing the point of Star Wars. Edited October 19, 2015 by Pantheros Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted October 19, 2015 Author Share Posted October 19, 2015 Basically what I'm saying is, is that the endless, circular arguments revolving around who is strongest is completely missing the point of Star Wars. You don't have to participate if you don't want to, but guess what: Some people enjoy doing that. Literally every movie, game, book's fans do this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 I LOL'ed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pantheros Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 You don't have to participate if you don't want to, but guess what: Some people enjoy doing that. Literally every movie, game, book's fans do this. I'm well aware of this, I was just hoping to maybe jarr someone out of the stupor of circular arguments. It's just sad to me that the nuance and emotional force of Star Wars has been drowned in all this nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted October 19, 2015 Author Share Posted October 19, 2015 I LOL'ed. I hope not at the OP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted October 19, 2015 Author Share Posted October 19, 2015 I'm not sure why my thread triggered him, when we have vs threads left and right, as well as the most powerful thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pantheros Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 The only thing that's sad is that you don't believe the two can coexist A lot of people know more about the Star Wars universe than our own. It's become an obsession for a lot people. Not only an obsession with the fantasy of it but with a specific, favorite character. Their self-worth becomes tied to the position of the character in the "power rankings". That's why things get so vitriolic. I don't think it's healthy to bury one's self so deep in the imaginary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pantheros Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 (edited) I'm not sure why my thread triggered him, when we have vs threads left and right, as well as the most powerful thread Novelty is a "trigger" I suppose, yours was the first thread I clicked on. I've never been here before, and I won't be here again. Edited October 19, 2015 by Pantheros Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 (edited) Anyway prejudices aside, Pantheros has a point, I'm not sure the imbalance in the Force effected the Jedi Order's ability to wield the Living Force, only access the Cosmic Force. Or at least that is only how it is ever described. That said the question of how much they were effected is pretty open ended, and nobody has provided a clear answer. Edited October 19, 2015 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted October 19, 2015 Author Share Posted October 19, 2015 Anyway prejudices aside, Pantheros has a point, I'm not sure the imbalance in the Force effected the Jedi Order's ability to wield the Living Force, only access the Cosmic Force. Or at least that is only how it is ever described. Well in some quotes they explicitly state that their connection to the force is weakening, or that their ability to use the Force has diminished. Force in general, there was no distinguish made. That said the question of how much they were effected is pretty open ended, and nobody has provided a clear answer. That would be hard to pinpoint without a Jedi who has ample feats during the clone wars as well as 200 years before or 24 years after it. And he'd have to be in his prime the whole time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 (edited) That would be hard to pinpoint without a Jedi who has ample feats during the clone wars as well as 200 years before or 24 years after it. And he'd have to be in his prime the whole time...Funny you should say that as it reminded me of something, Yoda says that after turning 700 (i.e. 200 years before the Clone Wars) said that he could only lift 5 of the 6 Muuntuur stones. Edited October 19, 2015 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 Actually.... "That had been the case with the Jedi Order. For two hundred years before the coming of Darth Sidious the power of the dark side had been gaining strength, and yet the Jedi had made only minimal efforts to thwart it. The Sith were pleased by the fact that the Jedi, too, had been allowed to grow so powerful, because, in the end, their sense of entitlement would blind them to what was occurring in their midst." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted October 19, 2015 Author Share Posted October 19, 2015 Funny you should say that as it reminded me of something, Yoda says that after turning 700 (i.e. 200 years before the Clone Wars) said that he could only lift 5 of the 6 Muuntuur stones. Indeed, but he was growing older as well. The worst part of this was during the Clone Wars, when Yoda was past his prime either way. It's a good point though, for we know that it did affect Alter, as well as having such big effect 200 years before the Clone Wars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted October 19, 2015 Author Share Posted October 19, 2015 Actually.... "That had been the case with the Jedi Order. For two hundred years before the coming of Darth Sidious the power of the dark side had been gaining strength, and yet the Jedi had made only minimal efforts to thwart it. The Sith were pleased by the fact that the Jedi, too, had been allowed to grow so powerful, because, in the end, their sense of entitlement would blind them to what was occurring in their midst." Well PT era best era, but they were still weakened Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foreignobjects Posted October 24, 2015 Share Posted October 24, 2015 Thanks. Also about *********** damn time. Master. as i said in another post... i always felt the fight between mace windu and sidious.. i feel like sidious let mace windu weakin him with the Lightning reflection just to gain simpathy from anakin.."DONT LET HIM KILL ME" "I HAVE THE POWER TO SAVE THE ONE YOU LOVE" all that crap. and he starts revealing his true face? or was that cause by the lightning? i dont know. but lots of people say mace had him beat. but who knows.... maybe he was just letting anakin decide his fate. Sidious that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PadsterPwns Posted October 24, 2015 Share Posted October 24, 2015 (edited) as i said in another post... i always felt the fight between mace windu and sidious.. i feel like sidious let mace windu weakin him with the Lightning reflection just to gain simpathy from anakin.."DONT LET HIM KILL ME" "I HAVE THE POWER TO SAVE THE ONE YOU LOVE" all that crap. and he starts revealing his true face? or was that cause by the lightning? i dont know. but lots of people say mace had him beat. but who knows.... maybe he was just letting anakin decide his fate. Sidious that is. It's flat out G-canon that Windu won their lightsaber duel. However, Sidious was going to win the part with the Force Lightning either way, as it is described in the novelisation of RotS that Mace's lightsaber blade was being bent backwards towards his face and that Mace was beginning to lose his grip on his saber hilt but Anakin intervened first. Either way, Mace was dead the second he walked in with the B-team. Anyway, great thread Zoltan, makes Yoda look even better for surviving his fight with Sids. Edited October 24, 2015 by PadsterPwns Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted October 24, 2015 Share Posted October 24, 2015 Actually in one of the insiders it's confirmed Sidious threw it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PadsterPwns Posted October 25, 2015 Share Posted October 25, 2015 Actually in one of the insiders it's confirmed Sidious threw it. I though it was flat out G-canon that Mace won the duel? Isn't there a quote from GL himself saying that Mace won their duel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted October 25, 2015 Share Posted October 25, 2015 I though it was flat out G-canon that Mace won the duel? Isn't there a quote from GL himself saying that Mace won their duel? Mace winning doesn't mean Sidious didn't throw it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PadsterPwns Posted October 25, 2015 Share Posted October 25, 2015 (edited) Mace winning doesn't mean Sidious didn't throw it. I'm still unsure due to them reaching an impasse in RotS novelisation but never mind, I'll take your word on this. In my time on the forums I've learnt that most of the time the "colour brigade" (still find that strange) are usually right. Edited October 25, 2015 by PadsterPwns Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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