I'm not F myself ("Steve" is not Stephanie, OK?) so I would correct one word in this. It isn't F/F *players*. It's F/F *characters*.

When I use "F/F players" (or M/M or M/F) I'm not speaking to the gender of the player. I can't speak for anyone else but if I play male/male romance I consider myself a male/male player. When I refer to myself, I don't say "I am a female female" or a "female male" or whatever. I play RPGs and I am an RPG player rather than an RPG

The balance has been unequal for F/F vs. F/M and even M/M for the entire game. And when people (not you, but in general) go on about how losing Theron = screwing over all the women players, or how Lana should be killed off, it does make one feel like F/F players are somehow invisible or don't count in the female player population for some reason. Losing EITHER Theron or Lana would be bad for female players/characters.

 

But you're right that there should be story-based romance options for all orientations, and that losing either Theron or Lana will take that away. I do hope you're right that the writers figure out a way to plausibly keep them both in the story and don't go all Game of Thrones edgy on us. You're probably right that it will be something totally inconsistent and stupid, though, and that the Commander who is supposed to be the most powerful person in the galaxy - and their advisors - will probably end up smiling, nodding and waving it away.

If by gay male characters being favored over lesbian female characters for "the entire game" you mean not the base game, not Makeb, not Shadow of Revan, not Ziost, not the first 9 chapters of KotFE, and not Iokath, Umbara, or Copero...

I don't think when upset Theron romancers say "BioWare is screwing over women" by destroying the romance with Theron (and Koth, and the previous male romances) they actually mean or assume it's ALL women, just a large and upset portion. There are definitely women who do female romances either with a female character and Lana or a male character and one of the other companions or no romances at all. As for wanting to kill Lana...that has nothing to do with contempt for F/F players but rather a strong hatred of Lana. I would be satisfied not killing her if she and Theron stopped being the only characters and the only focus and became just one of a group, letting other characters be introduced and included in the story or stop being cardboard cutouts. As it stands, I already dislike and resent Lana but since she's our only non-cardboard companion she's been the only one we're interacting with and it just makes me resent her more. Even her out with other characters and I'll be fine.

If by gay male characters being favored over lesbian female characters for "the entire game" you mean not the base game, not Makeb, not Shadow of Revan, not Ziost, not the first 9 chapters of KotFE, and not Iokath, Umbara, or Copero...

Actually, I do. On Makeb there was a character that was *only* M/M. The female counterpart on the Republic side was open to both M/F and F/F. So Bioware made an exclusively gay male character, but couldn't do the same for women.

Also, I don't know if you've ever seen the F/F "romance" on Makeb, but it's basically sexual harassment. If you play it through, the player essentially flirts with an NPC who makes it clear they aren't into you and makes up excuses not to contact you after Makeb ends. It basically turns the player into Doc. In contrast, the M/M romance with Lord Cytharat is very sweet and the player gets to be a hero for them.

In KOTFE and KOTET the player has a choice of either Theron or Koth for a M/M romance. No, I'm not going to act like two choices are great, but at least there WAS a choice. That is more than the F/F players got.

The character that is said to be returning for romance (for both genders) is Arcann, which means M/M will now have a third option, while nobody else has shown up for F/F and nobody is rumored to be doing so.

On Iokath both Lana and Theron had romance moments. On Umbara, only Theron did. On Copero, nobody did. So that leaves us with F/F - 1; M/M - 2 interactions.

So yeah, it's been slim pickings for both genders in SSR, but M/M HAS received more. Bioware pays more attention to male players and romances and that's clear here, too.

And i can certainly understand deeply hating a character and wanting them to out of your game. There are characters in this game I hate to the point where I spacebar through every dialogue and put masks on them so I don't have to see their faces. I deeply resent having to run chapters with them. And yes, as soon as I get kill options for them, they go away, most of the time.

So yeah - I get that. We're all allowed to hate whomever we want in this game, and balance is good, and we all want to play the game with our favorite characters. I'm not disagreeing or arguing with you on that point.

On Iokath both Lana and Theron had romance moments. On Umbara, only Theron did. On Copero, nobody did. So that leaves us with F/F - 1; M/M - 2 interactions.

This is incorrect, the Copero story bit has a Lana flirt for Lanamancers. It's at the very start when you're going to talk to the Chiss envoy.

I don't think Lana will become unhinged exactly, but I think she might be really mad at Theron. I don't think she'd necessarily kill him without the Commander's okay though. If Theron is doing a double agent thing I think she'd understand but still be mad that he risked the Commander's life and maybe went too far.

Personally I really like Theron and while I don't really enjoy Lana's romance that much I do like her as a character and I hope they both stick around and don't become paperweights.

Actually, I do. On Makeb there was a character that was *only* M/M. The female counterpart on the Republic side was open to both M/F and F/F. So Bioware made an exclusively gay male character, but couldn't do the same for women.

 

Also, I don't know if you've ever seen the F/F "romance" on Makeb, but it's basically sexual harassment. If you play it through, the player essentially flirts with an NPC who makes it clear they aren't into you and makes up excuses not to contact you after Makeb ends. It basically turns the player into Doc. In contrast, the M/M romance with Lord Cytharat is very sweet and the player gets to be a hero for them.

 

In KOTFE and KOTET the player has a choice of either Theron or Koth for a M/M romance. No, I'm not going to act like two choices are great, but at least there WAS a choice. That is more than the F/F players got.

 

The character that is said to be returning for romance (for both genders) is Arcann, which means M/M will now have a third option, while nobody else has shown up for F/F and nobody is rumored to be doing so.

 

On Iokath both Lana and Theron had romance moments. On Umbara, only Theron did. On Copero, nobody did. So that leaves us with F/F - 1; M/M - 2 interactions.

 

So yeah, it's been slim pickings for both genders in SSR, but M/M HAS received more. Bioware pays more attention to male players and romances and that's clear here, too.

 

And i can certainly understand deeply hating a character and wanting them to out of your game. There are characters in this game I hate to the point where I spacebar through every dialogue and put masks on them so I don't have to see their faces. I deeply resent having to run chapters with them. And yes, as soon as I get kill options for them, they go away, most of the time.

 

So yeah - I get that. We're all allowed to hate whomever we want in this game, and balance is good, and we all want to play the game with our favorite characters. I'm not disagreeing or arguing with you on that point.

Would you swap Lana and Theron's roles if you could? I would. Definitely have Theron rescue my character from carbonite and give me Theron for 9 blissfully Lana-free chapters, have Theron watching me as I sleep instead of Lana, have Lana betray me and leave instead of Theron while Theron is supportive and gives me all my missions and information. Have Theron retain his look and Lana get a nasty haircut that looks like roadkill with tire tracks smashed into it glued to her head. I'd turn Koth female too as part of the deal, his romance is nothing to write home about anyway. Not that I care about Cytharat and Lemda but I'd switch them too. Cytharat's "romance" is definitely sexually harassing to my eyes. Lemda just came across as generally grumpy and priickly meanwhile with Cytharat you're his boss and you just keep coming on to him and he seems to kind of humor you while deflecting you at the same time and then when he's severely wounded and dying instead of getting him medical attention immediately you decide to stop him and kiss him while he's doubled over in pain. What will happen to him if he refuses you? Especially if you're a dark council member or emperor's wrath. He's already disgraced and hanging by a thread because of his master's actions. Also Lemda being available for men too doesn't take away her availability for women, that's not fewer options. So far the only extra option for M/M is Koth whose romance is short, unsatisfying, and who is turned into a silent cardboard cutout.

As for what might happen in the future for romances, you should definitely start a thread asking for another F/F option in the future or maybe tweet BW about it. That's the reason Arcann may be getting romance content, because a bunch of people asked for it. I don't care about the F/F romance but I'd support it anyway, I would love to see more interesting female characters brought in as companions.

This is incorrect, the Copero story bit has a Lana flirt for Lanamancers. It's at the very start when you're going to talk to the Chiss envoy.

Can confirm Lana got one during Copero, short but sweet. I don't particularly like Lana but I find her romance adorable, especially with my IA.

Wouldn't mind seeing another F/F option, any new permanent characters at this point would be awesome.

Would you swap Lana and Theron's roles if you could? I would. Definitely have Theron rescue my character from carbonite and give me Theron for 9 blissfully Lana-free chapters, have Theron watching me as I sleep instead of Lana, have Lana betray me and leave instead of Theron while Theron is supportive and gives me all my missions and information. Have Theron retain his look and Lana get a nasty haircut that looks like roadkill with tire tracks smashed into it glued to her head. I'd turn Koth female too as part of the deal, his romance is nothing to write home about anyway. Not that I care about Cytharat and Lemda but I'd switch them too. Cytharat's "romance" is definitely sexually harassing to my eyes. Lemda just came across as generally grumpy and priickly meanwhile with Cytharat you're his boss and you just keep coming on to him and he seems to kind of humor you while deflecting you at the same time and then when he's severely wounded and dying instead of getting him medical attention immediately you decide to stop him and kiss him while he's doubled over in pain. What will happen to him if he refuses you? Especially if you're a dark council member or emperor's wrath. He's already disgraced and hanging by a thread because of his master's actions. Also Lemda being available for men too doesn't take away her availability for women, that's not fewer options. So far the only extra option for M/M is Koth whose romance is short, unsatisfying, and who is turned into a silent cardboard cutout.

 

As for what might happen in the future for romances, you should definitely start a thread asking for another F/F option in the future or maybe tweet BW about it. That's the reason Arcann may be getting romance content, because a bunch of people asked for it. I don't care about the F/F romance but I'd support it anyway, I would love to see more interesting female characters brought in as companions.

Swapping Lana and Theron's roles has nothing to do with the balance sheet with M/M and F/F romances. I'm not even going there again, we know how you feel about Lana. Not the issue here.

But I'll point out that Theron has a lot of media Lana doesn't have - hope you're willing to give up all the books, comics and backstories about Theron and his family as part of this deal - and Lana's look HAS been changed drastically. You can't dress her without getting a skeletal anime...thing...with Mom hair. weird eyes and hideous orange makeup that doesn't even look like her. You can at least put Theron in different clothes without his entire model and face changing. So are you really sure you still want to switch?

And actually, yes it does matter that Lemda is available for men as well as women. She's there as an option but Bioware respected gay men enough to give them a romance of their own, but they didn't do the same for lesbian women and give them something exclusive. Every single female character that serves as a companion except Senya is a male romance option, which speaks to some major issues with Bioware that go well beyond this.

This is incorrect, the Copero story bit has a Lana flirt for Lanamancers. It's at the very start when you're going to talk to the Chiss envoy.

 

I don't think Lana will become unhinged exactly, but I think she might be really mad at Theron. I don't think she'd necessarily kill him without the Commander's okay though. If Theron is doing a double agent thing I think she'd understand but still be mad that he risked the Commander's life and maybe went too far.

 

Personally I really like Theron and while I don't really enjoy Lana's romance that much I do like her as a character and I hope they both stick around and don't become paperweights.

I count 'romance moments' as actually getting a kiss with the companion, not a flirt. So no, I'm not counting the elevator. Theron romances get a kiss in Umbara that Lana doesn't.

As to the rest of it, I agree with the post entirely. As much as I get fed up with a lot of the conflicts around Theron and Lana in the fan community, I do wish that they both continue unscathed in the story.

I count 'romance moments' as actually getting a kiss with the companion, not a flirt. So no, I'm not counting the elevator. Theron romances get a kiss in Umbara that Lana doesn't.

 

As to the rest of it, I agree with the post entirely. As much as I get fed up with a lot of the conflicts around Theron and Lana in the fan community, I do wish that they both continue unscathed in the story.

Ah I think I thought you meant flirts counted because I didn't think Theron got a kiss on Iokath, just one romance line, but then I remembered you do get a kiss but only if you kill his dad. Which sounds a little messed up typing it out.

Swapping Lana and Theron's roles has nothing to do with the balance sheet with M/M and F/F romances. I'm not even going there again, we know how you feel about Lana. Not the issue here.

 

But I'll point out that Theron has a lot of media Lana doesn't have - hope you're willing to give up all the books, comics and backstories about Theron and his family as part of this deal - and Lana's look HAS been changed drastically. You can't dress her without getting a skeletal anime...thing...with Mom hair. weird eyes and hideous orange makeup that doesn't even look like her. You can at least put Theron in different clothes without his entire model and face changing. So are you really sure you still want to switch?

 

And actually, yes it does matter that Lemda is available for men as well as women. She's there as an option but Bioware respected gay men enough to give them a romance of their own, but they didn't do the same for lesbian women and give them something exclusive. Every single female character that serves as a companion except Senya is a male romance option, which speaks to some major issues with Bioware that go well beyond this.

On this we can agree at least, on everything Theron/Lana related (as well as being upset when a side character is available to more than just your demographic) I disagree obviously. I believe both M/M options being treated like crap makes up for the fact that there were two of them. As it stands in the current story, there are zero M/M romances going on. I do believe if enough people asked for it they would both add another F/F option (though I don't think any romance option from here out will be available to only one gender) as well as a book or something for Lana. She is popular with the coveted straight white male after all, the demand is probably there.

Yes, we do agree on that purple point. I appreciate that even with our differences of opinion on other matters we can find common ground sometimes. And I also agree that any companions that are brought in as romance options will likely be playersexual just as the KOTFE three were.

I do believe if enough people asked for it they would both add another F/F option (though I don't think any romance option from here out will be available to only one gender) as well as a book or something for Lana. She is popular with the coveted straight white male after all, the demand is probably there.

A lot of straight men seem to keep her as a companion in the game, yes. But the main fan demographics for Lana online, people who actually care enough about the character to talk about her outside of the game, seem to actually be:

1. Women who either have Lana in F/F romances or appreciate that pairing

2. Women who dig the Theron/Lana duo as a OTP.

If one Googles any fan activity for her, there's a 95% chance it's one of those two categories - not straight white men. It's one reason why I actually don't think they will do anything else with her, because BW doesn't seem to care about that demographic very much.

Romance options aside... Lana needs some shaking up in some way. She's the most focused on NPC but she's Lord Sameness. She has no real development in her, she's a pragmatic Sith, but we don't really know much about her, Her family if she had one, her early life, or even why she's decided to tolerate Jedi or Republic people at all. To me, she's completely bland and frankly Stalkerish with a streak of sadomasochism if PC is a jerk to her.

Frankly I'd love to see her lose it or anything that shows she has a multifaceted personality.

I think I might have remembered hearing/reading somewhere that any newly introduced romances will be of the "playersexual" variety for simplicity sake.

Which would make things interesting if the rumors about a possible Scourge return romance for the Knight are true, since he's an original companion and could quite possibly be the only one who ends up available for both genders. But that's just total speculation and guessing on my part.

Going the DA:2 "playersexual" route, while not exactly realistic, is a way to keep things more fair and limit the screeching matches that happen with defined character sexuality (like with Inquisition and Andromeda). It is nice to have fully-fleshed romance arcs with actual preferences that come up (like Dorian or Sera from Inquisition for example...personally I absolutely love the conversation a female Inquisitor can have with Dorian about their close friendship and harmless flirting) but keeping things "status quo" is definitely the less "rock the boat" way to go.

Because most players are romancing one or the other.

Well many of us romancing Kira Carsen too, for example. But is that a reason to put her as a "main" character beside your own character inside of 3 whole expansions, so Bioware dont have to put efford in new personalities besides your romance and your character? Not really.

Well many of us romancing Kira Carsen too, for example. But is that a reason to put her as a "main" character beside your own character inside of 3 whole expansions, so Bioware dont have to put efford in new personalities besides your romance and your character? Not really.

I'm not sure I'm following. My "main" character is with Andronikos and is patiently waiting his return.

But BioWare introduced Theron and Lana as new companions and have kept them as the only two active story-givers because they are touted as the "main" romances in the game. They have to draw the line somewhere. It would cost entirely too much $$$ to keep every character fully-fleshed and active. Does it suck? Yes. But we have to be realistic in understanding that the more characters that are involved, the more $$$ it costs in voice-work and writing.

Does it suck? Yes. But we have to be realistic in understanding that the more characters that are involved, the more $$$ it costs in voice-work and writing.

Exactly what EA should do if they would really care about their game/playerbase. What do we get instead? The "low-budget-way" of 2 "main-romances" as you call them. Im not talking about having 6 active romances developed but NOT the 2 damn same characters 4 expansions long. You cant tell me you like that.

In my opinion EA is just to lazy to put money and efford in THEIR game. Well, everyone knows the only thing EA cares about is making the most money the easiest way.

Exactly what EA should do if they would really care about their game/playerbase. What do we get instead? The "low-budget-way" of 2 "main-romances" as you call them. Im not talking about having 6 active romances developed but NOT the 2 damn same characters 4 expansions long. You cant tell me you like that.

In my opinion EA is just to lazy to put money and efford in THEIR game. Well, everyone knows the only thing EA cares about is making the most money the easiest way.

I already have my main character romancing both Theron and Andronikos (in my head obviously). Why would I need even more?

Mass Effect carried through the same main romances with three games (with Garrus going from bestie to romance in ME2). People tend to get attached to the characters they romance...throwing a new one in with each expansion lessens their impact and then you just wind up with ones you never see again (such as the ones from RotHC).

I already have my main character romancing both Theron and Andronikos (in my head obviously). Why would I need even more?

 

Mass Effect carried through the same main romances with three games (with Garrus going from bestie to romance in ME2). People tend to get attached to the characters they romance...throwing a new one in with each expansion lessens their impact and then you just wind up with ones you never see again (such as the ones from RotHC).

It's a tricky situation, to be sure, but yes, I would rather see less love interests with greater impact than a huge cast of companions, like the ones from the Alliance Alerts that we rescue and then never interact with again. In the class stories everyone had their core of five, you added in Lana and Theron for SoR, and that was still feasible, but adding all the companions from all the class stories, plus new people, has led to a lot of disappointments about things.

As much as I like being able to work with different companions who are not in my class story, like T7-01, it might have been better if they'd been able to have different routes in KOTFE where you just rescued your own companions and maybe one or two more.

Focusing on a core of, say, six romanceable characters (three of each gender, playersexual because yes, otherwise there's drama and SWTOR can't be modded) adds up to 18 v/o artists between the three languages but seems much more reasonable. And having a core cast of quest givers also becomes more understandable. No, not everyone is going to like the quest givers, and there will always be people complaining that this or that character is 'pushed' on them, but it is what it is. If our romance is the quest giver great, if not we still have to work with them (ask me how I felt about having to talk to Darth Baras or deal with Kaliyo so much in the class stories...yep...).

IMHO the best things they could do would be what has been discussed before:

1. Give a choice between two sets of quest givers/core team, which would at least give an option for those who hate one or another quest giver. I think the way they handled KOTET 8 and 9, where you could essentially shape your endgame by choosing your strike team, was best.

2. Carve the romances out into additional chapters as content outside the main story, whether that ends up being a cartel market thing or not.

I hope that she does become unhinged, then we have to choose between the two killing one and making the other one irrelevant. We move on from these two and then the next expansion is "SWTOR - The Adventures of Gault Rennow and the Outlander" where we hang out with Gault and get up to all sorts of shenanigans.

I believe that was the Bounty Hunter Story line...