As always, I'm very open to alternative approaches. I just want to see rational and objective justifications for these approaches, or at the very least objective specification of what these approaches are. This is precisely what I was trying to elicit with my replies. In short, I want the answer to the question of "why".

Hungering is too OP.

Hungering is too OP.

So…what you're saying is that your whole vendetta against me stems from the fact that I once disqualified (without prejudice) one of your marauder parses from the server leaderboard for explicitly violating a long-standing and agreed upon rule…TWO YEARS AGO?

Said I was staying off for a while and I meant it, but I had to give this update:

This is just something I have been playing around with in the formulas (I have a lot of time for math in-between patients):

Assassin (B-Mods, so health is at 57,478)

Shield 1200 = 55.22% (Base Rating)

Absorb – 2456 = 59.99% (All B-Mods, Enhancements, Augments, both Implants, and Ear)

Defense – 185 = 18.5% (Just Stim/Relics - LOWEST YOU CAN POSSIBLY GO)

 

**Again, as per Mean Mitigation Theorem, Assassin Absorb % should be 10% higher than PT/Jugg due to Lt Armor

Going off of this and trying to match to Defense % on the other 2 while keeping Shield/Absorb relatively even I was able to make this:

 

Juggernaut (B-Mods, so health is at 55,166.5)

Shield – 1824 = 51.25 (12Augs)

Absorb – 1580 = 50.94 (2 Augs + Implants + All B-Mods + 6 Enh)

Defense – 437 = 18.58 (Ear+Relics+Stim+1Enh)

 

Powertech (B-Mods, so health is at 55,166.5)

Shield – 1720 = 51.2 (10 Augments)

Absorb – 1297 = 51.46 (4 Augments + 8 B-Mods + Ear + Implants)

Defense – 824 = 18.65 (Relics + Stim + All Enh + 1 B-Mod)

Tried this on both my Assassin and my Juggernaut and it works BEAUTIFULLY. Have a friend who is trying it out on the PT for me. Have fun people, and keep pushing new ways to make your gear work for you.

UPDATE:

 

 

The actual equations for what you will get out of a stat pool are:

30 * { 1 – [ 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.3 ) ]^[ ( DefenseRating / Level) / 1.2 ) ] } + Class Bonuses = Defense Chance

50 * { 1 – [ 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.5 ) ]^[ ( ShieldRating / Level) / 0.78 ] } + Class Bonuses = Shield Chance

50 * { 1 – [ 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.5 ) ]^[ ( AbsorbRating / Level ) / 0.65 ] } + Class Bonuses = Absorb Percentage

where the values of Class Bonuses are defined as:

Assassin - Defense = 16, Shield = 35, Absorb = 24

Juggernaut - Defense = 13, Shield = 24, Absorb = 23

Powertech - Defense = 9, Shield = 25, Absorb = 27

 

**Class Bonus values are calculated including the +5% Shield and +20% Absorb contained in your offhand and accounting for Active Mitigation stats that one <!SHOULD!> have 100% uptime on**

does this include the accuracy debuff for sins in the defense buff? how is the 2% for 3 seconds for the 2 set averaged? we only get 15% from ward now right... i guess teh bulwark math has to be revised for the new 3 stacks and 3 seconds...

also, there should be 5 for pt and jugg and 10 for sins in the defense eqaution... unless u included that in the bonuses.

i was trying to figure this all out without looking at my characters (since i havemnt leveled by guardian to 60 yet...) and without darthhater, or torhead, or mr.robot... it is becoming increasingly difficult.

does this include the accuracy debuff for sins in the defense buff? how is the 2% for 3 seconds for the 2 set averaged? we only get 15% from ward now right... i guess teh bulwark math has to be revised for the new 3 stacks and 3 seconds...

 

also, there should be 5 for pt and jugg and 10 for sins in the defense eqaution... unless u included that in the bonuses.

 

i was trying to figure this all out without looking at my characters (since i havemnt leveled by guardian to 60 yet...) and without darthhater, or torhead, or mr.robot... it is becoming increasingly difficult.

The different debuffs that you, as a tank, place on the boss are not included in the above. As you have to have a class combo and an off-tank who keeps theirs up 100% of the time to get them all and for them to be effectual. 2 piece set bonus affects Damage Reduction, which is not what these pertain to. The 15% buff from Sin's is what is calculated in Class Bonus as most are running the new 6-piece anyway. The Dark Bulwark Absorb is also not included as it I fluctuates from 0-8 throughout the fight and is easy enough to just add in mentally. I posted this so that people could see their base percentages from their gear and class alone and adjust the gear from a calculator or program without having to spend credits doing all the swapping.

What is included in the Class Bonuses is everything from your base class, advanced class, discipline, combat form/cylinder/stance, off-hand, and active mitigations that you keep on yourself (i.e. Dark Ward, Blade Barricade, Shield Enhancers).

Also: with you on wishing Mr. Robot would update for lvl 60 so that we could post gear sets for other people to see.

Also: with you on wishing Mr. Robot would update for lvl 60 so that we could post gear sets for other people to see.

Won't happen, they abandoned their SWTOR site a while ago, and Torhead is just waiting for the life support to be turned off (supposedly will be shut down anytime after March 19th).

Sad face.

Anyone working on something similar?

Said I was staying off for a while and I meant it, but I had to give this update:

Tried this on both my Assassin and my Juggernaut and it works BEAUTIFULLY. Have a friend who is trying it out on the PT for me. Have fun people, and keep pushing new ways to make your gear work for you.

Got any results from your PT friend? I'm gearing up atm and still searching for good stat distribution.

Got any results from your PT friend? I'm gearing up atm and still searching for good stat distribution.

i just posted b mod builds for each boss for each tank.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=802955

Got any results from your PT friend? I'm gearing up atm and still searching for good stat distribution.

This configuration is getting the most positive feedback from the PT's that I know.

Powertech (B-Mods)

Shield – 1720 = 51.2 (10 Augments)

Absorb – 1297 = 51.46 (4 Augments + 8 B-Mods + Ear + Implants)

Defense – 824 = 18.65 (Relics + Stim + All Enh + 1 B-Mod)

Also: for those who want even more alternatives I am working on another stat distribution guide, should be up by the end of the week.

Using the M/R K/E - F/T #s we have with the new ops -

Has anyone created a table for optimal defense vs absorb?

Sparky- all MRKE-

Jugg- all defense 1600 d 1100s 1050 abs

Sin- high defense- 1500d 1300 s 1100 abs

Pt- ?? Would try for high def? But some say PTS should run all shield

Bulo- some MRKE Bulo - adds are Ranged tech? So only shield able correct?

Jugs - 1300d 1300s 1200 abs

Sin - 900d 1350 abs. 1650 abs

Pts- ? No clue best build for pts

Torque- boss is defendable- turrets req shield/abs

If they aren't killed quickl

Juggs-

Sins-

Pts-

Master/blaster- lil guy wrecks shields/absorb

Req high #s shield/absorb

Juggs- 950d 1400 shd 1400 abs

Sin- 550 d 1400s 1900 abs

Pts- ??

Crostini/pearl--

Juggs

Sins

Pts

Anyone able to help me fill in blanks answer any questions?

Trying nail down optimal builds for these thanks

First i would suggest you to get correct dmg weights of the bosses, because yours seem off. There are threads here where those are posted.

The Formula to how to calculate how much defense, shield and absorb should be worn with individual dmg weights of the bosses can be found in KBN's original thread. Otherwise i think also dipstick uses the same formula and might have written it down somewhere in the forum. Can't help here as i only have the formula for the juggernaut.

First i would suggest you to get correct dmg weights of the bosses, because yours seem off. There are threads here where those are posted.

 

The Formula to how to calculate how much defense, shield and absorb should be worn with individual dmg weights of the bosses can be found in KBN's original thread. Otherwise i think also dipstick uses the same formula and might have written it down somewhere in the forum. Can't help here as i only have the formula for the juggernaut.

Thank you that was what I was looking for- I'll scroll through the thread try and find it.

If anyone has a table with optimal defense #s for the tanks for the new ops boss fights I'd appreciate it!

Thank you that was what I was looking for- I'll scroll through the thread try and find it.

 

If anyone has a table with optimal defense #s for the tanks for the new ops boss fights I'd appreciate it!

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=802955

I love how lopsided this debate was. One person providing facts, figures and rationale for why they're correct and the other person seemingly unaware that bosses don't crit. El oh el.

After your persuasive logic I am feeling incredibly shamed right now.

I am sorry that I posted how I gear my tanks. I also apologize that I am 9/10 in the current HM content.

I am sorry that I have nearly identical damage profiles to the top tanks in the world on all fights.

It depresses me that OP is still intact and that the concept does in fact work, I will endeavor to find a new way to gear.

I am filled with remorse over trying to open people's minds to see there are different ways to achieve the same thing, and I apologize profusely to everyone who has sent me a message or mail concerning their success once they fit the gear to their playstyle.

I deeply regret that I changed my gear every other week until I found what worked for me, and that I am about to do so again to explore what Efficient Mitigation can actually achieve - I will cease this line of thought immediately.

I absolutely hate the intellectual challenges that this discussion brought, and that I was forced to learn more and become better, I will stop having conversations with other human beings.

It makes me borderline suicidal that I considered SW:tOR to be a game that one should have fun with, and my portion of that fun came from being the best I could be at my role. I shall switch my gear to full Endurance and begin working to become the ultimate Conquest Hero.

It also saddens me that in a world based on code and RNG there is not a "correct answer", I will tunnel my vision and linearize my thinking to adapt to the paradigm that you, in your glorious wisdom are trying to show me.

To anyone that learned anything from this thread, to everyone who saw a new perspective and was made to think - I apologize, I clearly should never have intended to help.

After your persuasive logic I am feeling incredibly shamed right now.

 

I am sorry that I posted how I gear my tanks. I also apologize that I am 9/10 in the current HM content.

I am sorry that I have nearly identical damage profiles to the top tanks in the world on all fights.

It depresses me that OP is still intact and that the concept does in fact work, I will endeavor to find a new way to gear.

I am filled with remorse over trying to open people's minds to see there are different ways to achieve the same thing, and I apologize profusely to everyone who has sent me a message or mail concerning their success once they fit the gear to their playstyle.

I deeply regret that I changed my gear every other week until I found what worked for me, and that I am about to do so again to explore what Efficient Mitigation can actually achieve - I will cease this line of thought immediately.

I absolutely hate the intellectual challenges that this discussion brought, and that I was forced to learn more and become better, I will stop having conversations with other human beings.

It makes me borderline suicidal that I considered SW:tOR to be a game that one should have fun with, and my portion of that fun came from being the best I could be at my role. I shall switch my gear to full Endurance and begin working to become the ultimate Conquest Hero.

It also saddens me that in a world based on code and RNG there is not a "correct answer", I will tunnel my vision and linearize my thinking to adapt to the paradigm that you, in your glorious wisdom are trying to show me.

 

To anyone that learned anything from this thread, to everyone who saw a new perspective and was made to think - I apologize, I clearly should never have intended to help.

I don't doubt your success and I don't doubt that what you've described is q perfectly viable way to gear a tank. However, after reading this entire thread it just blows my mind that you never actually addressed any of KBN's arguments in any way more meaningful than trying to find some semantic argument that never actually addressed the issue.

It's a fact that inherent defensive bonuses predispose each tank class to increased effectiveness gearing in a certain way. You insist that you've plugged all your information into an algorithm that says otherwise, but rather than showing your work and disproving what almost everyone agrees to be a simple truth in the way defensive stats are calculated you just claim it's wrong and everyone should take your word for it.

KBN took the time to illustrate that given the same stat budget your method is very slightly less effective, but rather than try to show where he erred you decide to be pedantic about how survival in tanking is a binary live or die situation when obviously that isn't the case.

Again, I don't doubt that this set up works for you and your raid group. I don't doubt that it's a viable alternative method, but your absolute refusal to question any of your own assumptions weakens your entire argument. This could be a great thread if you included some input from your healers as to what their experience healing you with this setup has been, but you barely gloss over it. This could be great if you included your healer and tank composition to open up discussion of how your strategy works more effectively given certain group composition.

You say again and again that your goal isn't to establish whose method is, "best" but rather to present an alternative to the status quo. If that's the case then it would be helpful if you actually substantively addressed the arguments against you. If that's the case then why not try to address more thoroughly how and why what you do works better within your Ops group.

I'm all for variety and I respect your willingness to experiment with alternatives to what most people take as, "the only way", but the way that you've responded to KBN and your overall tone undercuts your entire argument.

Where you say "inherent defensive bonuses predispose each tank class to increased effectiveness gearing in a certain way" I say inherent bonuses predisposed each class to stopping at a different stat cap based on what you are trying to achieve.

If you want to talk about algorithms we can break down how many people are posting the % types of damage on each fight, taken from the combat log. But if you have a log analyzer it is just going to pull out how much of each attack there was and break it down by type divided by the whole fight and then spit out a percentage. I have not yet seen one that breaks down when this damage is happening. I doubt anyone will disagree that a fight is not 54% MR/KE damage 100% of the time. 54% of the total damage going out will be that type, but it is going to go out in spikes. The largest part of achieving low damage profiles is studying the mechanics and playing with fight with respect to them - knowing when what type of damage will be coming out and mitigating accordingly.

Kudos to you for using pedantic, haven't heard that one in a long time. Whether or not you agree, death truly is binary at the end of the day.

As far as refusal to question assumptions - what? The moment KBN entered this thread I had to go back and question why I did everything the way I did it. I also completely ran different gear at points to take into account Methoxa's Juggernaut profile and justinplainview's PT profile. I will whole-heartedly admit that years ago when I started I ran different numbers just because it seemed EVERYONE was doing it a certain way. I tend to go contrary to the norm to either discover why something is done the way it is, or discover new ways that haven't been fleshed out because too few people are willing to deviate.

Healer input time -

Compositon: Sin/Jugg tank (usually). Merc/Op heals (occasionally Merc/Sorc).

Ease of heals - I have been told this largely depends on how we are doing the fights (whether that is a reflection on gear, I truly cannot say).

One of my primary points when it comes to tanking is "be nice to your healers". Stand in the puddles they drop, rotate your cooldowns when appropriate, manage boss positions to maximize dps and shorten the fight overall, and be a pro-active off tank.

Pro-active off-tanking comes in spurts, and with knowledge of your tanks group contribution potential.

I.E. Sparky - if the other tank is going to get Brutalize he will more than likely Shroud the initial hit, but then I will Intercede to him so that he takes reduced damage for the duration of the channel.

Walkers - if I am a PT and we are doing the no-swap method, I will save my Oil Slick until Walker 2 switches and use it as a defensive for the other tank's protection.

It may even come down to the strategies themselves, as I take all the punts on Torque. Knowing exactly when who is going to have the boss allows the other tank and myself to be focusing the majority of our damage on killing deterrents, which dramatically decreases our damage taken because they die faster. I also take all the punts on M/B, because it is easier for the Operative heals to just worry about having me HoTed for my runs back and both healers spike the off-tank while he is taking the lazor blasts.

I constantly change my gear as I come up with new ideas, some of them work, some of them fail horribly, but I try them out just the same. My current, baseline set is truly based on experience of what keeps me from dropping too low on health (my goal is always to never have Enraged Defense be available for use). I ran KBN's set at one point, I saw his numbers and I see the logic behind his math. I looked at Dipstik's numbers, and in his latest he even states in the assumptions "no cooldowns, just perfect execution" - which is not a thing. We are all human (except for gold spammers), and we will all make mistakes. There will be few and far between fights where ever step you take is calculated efficiency. Which is why, after ceasing to just be contrary, I still disagree with the numbers, they are computed by a machine. No one in this game has the capability to play with that amount of precision - which is why I will continue to state: find the gear that fits your playstyle. One of the more current figures to back that statement up is, and see if you can explain this, the last couple times I ran Underluker. Ran it will a Defense chance of ~26% on Olmez and defended between 53-57% of all attacks from the boss himself over the course of 8 pulls (people kept dying to ceiling...), ran it the next day on my back-up Juggernaut who has a Defense chance of only ~18% and the lowest % I defended over the course of 8 pulls (alt run, bad DPS) was 67%. Lowest. Did absolutely nothing different. Now, you can run the math behind why a lower rating/% chance shouldn't give you better mitigation, and overall it won't. I'm not advocating that people should start drastically changing their numbers because they are going to waste credits and time wiping. It's simply an example of how much RNG comes into play, and a statement that DtPS has a target range of acceptability per fight, how you get there is going to be up to you.

I am currently gearing towards the latest thread I posted to see how well it works, in some cases it may be baller, in other it may be horrible, but the concept intrigues me.

Also - completely having a mind blank as to where the Parsley suggestion box is at the moment so I will throw this in here: you have a section for DPS and Heals, is there any way you could have a wall for DtPS profiles so that tanks could compare themselves and see what the others are achieving?

after 7 pages of reading, this thread breaks down into a debate over 2 different methodologies producing a difference of 0.135%. What's even more amazing is that after establishing that both sides can agree upon this number as a means of "STOCHASTICALLY" quantifying their differences, the church of KBN maniacally clings to this as some sort of justification of superiority over the infidel jethsidi's heretical approach. Where I come from, 0.135 means "IT'S THE SAME THING!"

Now before this radical concept ignites 7 more pages of debate, I suggest some people pop Frozen into the DVR and take heed to the lyrics of "Let it Go, Let it Go...."

Or perhaps we can all indulge in a little fantasy, and imagine jethsidi and KBN at the same cookout.......

Jethsidi: "hey KBN! Nice to see you! Thanks for coming to my cookout! Would you care for a bacon double cheeseburger? they are my speciality!"

KBN: "Why thank you! But how are you going to make that? You do know I have posted a guide that discusses how to make the most statistically relevant bacon double cheeseburgers? By chance, have you read it?"

Jethsidi: "Oh yes, I am very familiar. You did great work. And I do base my bacon double cheeseburgers on you guide."

KBN: "Sounds great! I would rather enjoy a BDCB then....But wait, what are you doing?"

Jethsidi: "1 patty, 1slice of cheese, 2 pieces of bacon, that's just how you wrote it up!"

KBN "Not at all, if you review my work, you will see I used the following equation

Patty size=50*1/AASM( where AASM=average adult sized male)*(0.9975, the ratio of hunger over wind friction) plus Bacon (which is factored as weight, not strip of pattry size/2.5, then doubled)plus cheese as measured by surface area of patty*the hunger ratio which is 0.9975"

Jethsidi: "KBN, when you break it down, and we assume AASM=200 pounds that equals 1/4 pound patty, which I used. using the same 1/4 pund patty, your equation = 2 slices of bacon (approximated) and where as you measured surface area of the patty to determine cheese size, I found slices equal to bun size, which comes out almost identical to your formula."

KBN "what about max hunger assumptions? You do know I am a computer programmer? I recently developed an app that helps restaurant owners use my complex algorithm to make the statistically best and most efficient burger possible. Recently, a small bed and breakfast posted on yelp that they have downloaded and started using my app to improve the efficiency of their burger making process. It is only a matter of time before all national restaurant chains adopt my app and methodology. After all, it is mathematically based and I am not capable of making an error, because I am a computer programmer."

Jethsidi: "hey, I respect that. But I'm telling you, this is a good burger! do you want one."

KBN "Good as defined QUANTITATIVELY? or ALGEBRAICALLY? You methodology is devoid of any proof it works."

Jethsidi: "My burgers and yours are about the same, man. It's a burger. It's how you cook it, man! Do you want one or not?"

KBN fan chimes in "how dare you challenge KBN. Do you know he is a computer programmer? All of his work is mathematically derived and is quantifiable. You can't just eyeball a burger! What kind of person would do that. And by the way, I see no account for wind direction or speed in your bastardization of KBN's work. You have offered no one anything of use in your attempts to make a burger. please leave!"

Jethsidi: "but it's my house man, my yard, my grill!"

KBN fan #2: "you can't prove any of that! stop polluting the internet with your lies!"

Jethsidi, to himself "I knew I should have just ordered a pizza!"

after 7 pages of reading, this thread breaks down into a debate over 2 different methodologies producing a difference of 0.135%. What's even more amazing is that after establishing that both sides can agree upon this number as a means of "STOCHASTICALLY" quantifying their differences, the church of KBN maniacally clings to this as some sort of justification of superiority over the infidel jethsidi's heretical approach. Where I come from, 0.135 means "IT'S THE SAME THING!"

 

Now before this radical concept ignites 7 more pages of debate, I suggest some people pop Frozen into the DVR and take heed to the lyrics of "Let it Go, Let it Go...."

 

Or perhaps we can all indulge in a little fantasy, and imagine jethsidi and KBN at the same cookout.......

 

Jethsidi: "hey KBN! Nice to see you! Thanks for coming to my cookout! Would you care for a bacon double cheeseburger? they are my speciality!"

 

KBN: "Why thank you! But how are you going to make that? You do know I have posted a guide that discusses how to make the most statistically relevant bacon double cheeseburgers? By chance, have you read it?"

 

Jethsidi: "Oh yes, I am very familiar. You did great work. And I do base my bacon double cheeseburgers on you guide."

 

KBN: "Sounds great! I would rather enjoy a BDCB then....But wait, what are you doing?"

 

Jethsidi: "1 patty, 1slice of cheese, 2 pieces of bacon, that's just how you wrote it up!"

 

KBN "Not at all, if you review my work, you will see I used the following equation

Patty size=50*1/AASM( where AASM=average adult sized male)*(0.9975, the ratio of hunger over wind friction) plus Bacon (which is factored as weight, not strip of pattry size/2.5, then doubled)plus cheese as measured by surface area of patty*the hunger ratio which is 0.9975"

 

Jethsidi: "KBN, when you break it down, and we assume AASM=200 pounds that equals 1/4 pound patty, which I used. using the same 1/4 pund patty, your equation = 2 slices of bacon (approximated) and where as you measured surface area of the patty to determine cheese size, I found slices equal to bun size, which comes out almost identical to your formula."

 

KBN "what about max hunger assumptions? You do know I am a computer programmer? I recently developed an app that helps restaurant owners use my complex algorithm to make the statistically best and most efficient burger possible. Recently, a small bed and breakfast posted on yelp that they have downloaded and started using my app to improve the efficiency of their burger making process. It is only a matter of time before all national restaurant chains adopt my app and methodology. After all, it is mathematically based and I am not capable of making an error, because I am a computer programmer."

 

Jethsidi: "hey, I respect that. But I'm telling you, this is a good burger! do you want one."

 

KBN "Good as defined QUANTITATIVELY? or ALGEBRAICALLY? You methodology is devoid of any proof it works."

 

Jethsidi: "My burgers and yours are about the same, man. It's a burger. It's how you cook it, man! Do you want one or not?"

 

KBN fan chimes in "how dare you challenge KBN. Do you know he is a computer programmer? All of his work is mathematically derived and is quantifiable. You can't just eyeball a burger! What kind of person would do that. And by the way, I see no account for wind direction or speed in your bastardization of KBN's work. You have offered no one anything of use in your attempts to make a burger. please leave!"

 

Jethsidi: "but it's my house man, my yard, my grill!"

 

KBN fan #2: "you can't prove any of that! stop polluting the internet with your lies!"

 

Jethsidi, to himself "I knew I should have just ordered a pizza!"

Thank you, that was the biggest smile I have ever started a morning with. Lol.

To Jethsidi, 1000 times you are welcome! I'm glad it made you laugh and smile.

And to all who took the time to contribute to this thread, a most Blessed and Happy Easter to you all!

Now if you will all excuse me, I must put on Frozen for my 18 month old daughter!

That post was epic

P. S. All your best are belong to dipburger.

That post was epic

 

P. S. All your best are belong to dipburger.

Can I get a DipBurger with some Jethsidfries and a KBN shake to go, please? Oh, and some Methoxa sauce too!