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The Jedi Knight, and Sith Warrior classes need a huge buff.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
The Jedi Knight, and Sith Warrior classes need a huge buff.
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Rhinzual's Avatar


Rhinzual
01.19.2012 , 04:18 PM | #561
Quote: Originally Posted by Noth View Post
Players can make the class work, that does not mean the class is OK. He often runs with premades in pvp (in which any class can do well), and has a good group for pve. It is honestly hilarious how much easier it to is keep aggro on my powertech than it is on my Jugg while also dishing out more damage than my jugg. There are issues with the class when you look outside of the class. To say otherwise only expresses your ignorance.
A shield tech powertech has access to a lot of elemental damage. From what the tooltips have told me, outside of maybe force choke and force push, I think, all of our damage is kinetic and thus gets negated by armor unless we spend time stacking sundering assault. Sure DFA is kinetic, but it's a 1 minute area targeted attack that can do knockback. Even smash which is similar to flame sweep does kinetic damage instead of say, internal. The difference in damage types determines how much is negated.

RagingSage's Avatar


RagingSage
01.19.2012 , 04:34 PM | #562
This is still an issue, why is nothing being done about this?
CE

Noth's Avatar


Noth
01.19.2012 , 05:28 PM | #563
Quote: Originally Posted by Rhinzual View Post
A shield tech powertech has access to a lot of elemental damage. From what the tooltips have told me, outside of maybe force choke and force push, I think, all of our damage is kinetic and thus gets negated by armor unless we spend time stacking sundering assault. Sure DFA is kinetic, but it's a 1 minute area targeted attack that can do knockback. Even smash which is similar to flame sweep does kinetic damage instead of say, internal. The difference in damage types determines how much is negated.
push and choke also do kinetic. The only damage that the jugg can do that is not negated by armor is the weak dots and shatter in the vengeance tree.
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Weinerschnitzel's Avatar


Weinerschnitzel
01.19.2012 , 07:06 PM | #564
Quote: Originally Posted by Deathmark View Post
And as others have mentioned, I wouldn't take my sweet time making ridiculously minor attempts to fix the class, because if you damage your games reputation early and lose a bunch of players over it, mmos can have a hard time recovering from that kind of damage - kind of like a sith warrior when fighting even level enemies...

You've made a great game, but gimping what is unquestionably the best thing to come out of the sw universe, is a huge blemish that can ruin the whole thing.
this made a lot of sense to me....i really hope that some BW dev sees this.

dragondeath's Avatar


dragondeath
01.19.2012 , 09:05 PM | #565
well i'm glad i'm not the only one thinking or observing all of this and the only two characters I've played so far have been a jedi sentinel and a trooper commando. Well technically i'n not glad that i'm not the only one whose obseved this. Dang this is a real let down i would have liked it if my own thoughts where not confirmed.

Denubisx's Avatar


Denubisx
01.20.2012 , 01:14 AM | #566
Quote: Originally Posted by Redec View Post
I have been a serious PVPer since the original EQ. Warhammer and SWG(pre NGE) were my main games before SWTOR. I had a lot of hope pinned on SWTOR because of the PVP developers had a hand in WARs PVP. That being said I have played a Sith Juggernaut 1-50. Since I am not a big PVEer I dont have much to say about that. I enjoyed the story and used Vette throughout it. I didnt have help for any class quest and soloed some 2 man heriocs. Soloed Baras too. PVE being challenging doesn't bother me.

What bothers me is being killed over and over by the same classes the exact same ways in PVP. I am good about learnng other classes and counters to certian rotations people like to use. Sure I can kill baddies all day long, but as soon as someone comes along that knows how to PVP I am dead. I am 50/56 and mostly champ armor. I have tried all 3 trees, hybrids, and whatever to get a small edge or boost. No luck. I know the issues. They have been stated over and over again but they seem to ignore us.

Our defense is crap. Only working against white damage? Really?

Damage specs putting out 1/4 of what BHs and Troopers do. Really? I use BH and troopers as examples because they are heavy armored tanks. We should be on par with them right? To be truthfull we should put a little more DPS than they do since they are RANGE. Don't even get me started on the BH pull. Really?

I have went against some BH/Troopers and was destroyed standing toe to toe with them. WHY? What developer in their right mind thinks this is ok? In what state of mind should a range be able to stand toe to toe with a melee class and not even break a sweat killing them. I pop everything known to man. I use my rakata med pack before nerf, adrenals, relics and still stand no chance against a good BH or trooper. There are serious issues here.

If you are a healing inquistor or consulars and die 1v1 to a jug then you need to study your class. Thats all I have to say about that. No amount of interrupts or stuns will bring down a good healing inq or consular.

Op and Scoundrels kill us fast because of the defense issue. I might as well be wearing cheese as armor against one. If you dont believe me I will offer a link showing a level 37 OP fighting a level 50 Jug proving how bad the defense/armor reduction design is comparing white vs special damage.

If you tell me I need to learn my class then you obviously need all your characters deleted except for a Jug/Guardian and forced to PVP. If you are happy with your Jug/Guardian then I am happy you enjoy being able to kill baddies and will offer names of many people who will put you to shame in PVP.

Please look into this. I know if you put a combat log in you will have many POed jugs and guardians.
+1 as a person who only pvps as a tank spec jugg with almost full champions gear (missing 3 pieces) it is a joke.

other tanks> our dps and have more range moves (tech/force hits)
healing sorcs or cons = auto kill on us 1 on 1. if they somehow lose this they have to be horrible.....and i mean beyond horrible if gear is even.
ops/smugs.......can drop us quick (tank spec give me a break)

pvp tank armor stats need to be adjusted not to mention jugg dps in general
"what seems to be the officer problem?"

Uruare's Avatar


Uruare
01.20.2012 , 03:12 AM | #567
I've leveled both a jugg and a marauder and, for my experiences with both, I'll chime in with the following.

If you have a healbot, you're usually fine for regular PVE content. If you have a high end gaming mouse/keypad you can comfortably hotkey the 25+ things you WILL need to use regularly if you want to have any hope at all of keeping pace with other classes with a 6-10 button minimum for all around optimal function AND you USE those tools as effectively as you can, you're probably gonna be ok.


Trouble is, if you're like probably the hilariously vast majorities, you're not playing with a Razr Naga mouse or a Nostromo keypad.

Chances are really good that you're playing with a regular keyboard and a 2-5 button mouse.

If you have a 2 button mouse, you're just screwed if you're not a piano player for how much of your keyboard you'll have to dedicate to positionally advantageous hotkeys that, often, aren't positionally advantageous at all; just the best you'll be able to do with what you've got.

If you have a 3-5 button mouse and a normal keyboard, you can hotkey something (I prefer Charge) to the middle mouse button and get some good use out of the q,e,r,f,t,g and 1,2,3,4,5,6 and F1, F2, F3, F4 keys.

From F5 over and from 6 over, they're just too far away from where your fingers will typically be resting on the WASD keys to be anything but problematic (if you're not some sort of dextrous savant) to use.


You'll be forced to rely on manual mouse pointer activation of everything you couldn't include in hotkey range, which will and probably does find many abandoning roughly half of the situational and circumstantially useful abilities a warrior has, since you really can't build an effective and consistent rotation with those; they're situational and circumstantial in ways you frequently don't have the means to create the circumstances or situations for.

Or, in the case of things like chilling scream or intimidating roar, are terribly useful in PVP and PVE respectively, but don't do damage, don't last long or just don't work on enough things for someone with a regular sort of 3-5 button mouse and a standard sort of keyboard to spare hotkeys for.

However, if you're a virtuoso of the keyboard or you have some swank gaming equipment with intelligently positioned and fully customizable hotkey/macro options so that you can reaslistically use everything a Warrior brings to the table at any given time, whenever it would be most optimal to do so?

And you have a healer glued to your butt?

You're golden.

It's bad class design. I suspect that whoever designed the warrior classes has been using things like a Razr naga and/or other gaming-specialized hardware for such a long time that they neglected entirely to account for the vast majorities that do not.

And so they designed a class that is half in the tank if you don't have and make use of such equipment.

That's just my suspicion. I've seen people design a lot of various things, and they very often, without even meaning to, tend to design them in conformity with their own needs and proficiencies as a baseline template.

It also smacks of some very poor referencing of beta feedback. This has all been said before.

Maybe there was some never-to-be-publically-admitted agreement that Darth Vader and Obi Wan classes would be...aimed at the elite of the elite. Maybe somebody thought it would just be the coolest thing ever if it were a comparative-to-everything-else super complex archetype to play and that it would be made 'special' for those that mastered it if they could master it at all.

Mastery of this class requires nothing more than a mere $200 investment in some nice gaming hardware. If you have that and can read tooltips, it's just as easy to play as a BH spamming Tracer Missile to kill everything; you're just using a lot more buttons to do it.

Though, frankly, if you have the GOOD hardware, you can set entire attack chains to a single button press. Go into the preset folder on my keypad, use the swank GUI to assign activation of button 1 immediately when I press the blue key, 1.5s later button 2 with a .2 second delay before activating button 3.

Isn't effective to chain too much onto a single keypress like that. Charge + Force Scream + Retaliation is a favorite combo of mine though; if Retaliation isn't up, whoop de doo, it doesn't activate.

If it is? Poppoppop! You done been charged, bellowed at and stabbed for probably upwards of 7k damage, and all I had to do was press one button.

That's the power of hardware, my friends, and this class was practically engineered for freaks like me that have such hardware.

WHich is entirely wrong and bad and really, really ridiculous of whoever did it to have done it like that.

Shouldn't require this kind of hardware to be able to play a class competently.

They'll learn.

JohraTon's Avatar


JohraTon
01.20.2012 , 03:25 AM | #568
Personally I don't really find it much of a problem. You forget Ilum is an endgame planet and decent gear is really required there. If it wasn't that way, when you are eventually geared up the content wouldn't be a challenge.

As for PvP, a skilled Marauder is almost unstoppable by most classes. The tough part for us at the moment is the new Ilum update favours those with ranged dps, but it was the same way in SWG.

Why people are crying about op's and smugglers so much is starting to get annoying, if your CC breaker is available they aren't that hard unless the player is good. In that case they'd win most instances anyway considering they're attacking first and are fully prep'd before you have a chance to prepare.

If your stun breaker is on cool down then so what? Their best attacks are done to stunned targets and you don't have your best defence available.

The game will never be balanced for all classes to have the same chance against each other 1 on 1. Most PvP encounters are done as part of a team so learn your roll within that team and do it. If you run in trying to smash commando's with an Immortal Jugg's DPS then your bound to have a tough time.
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Genocidalx's Avatar


Genocidalx
01.20.2012 , 03:35 AM | #569
Well, I was under the impression upon doing some class reading pre-release (and I still think my logic is sound, even if my assumptions proved otherwise) and assumed the Juggernaut/Guardian would be the main tanks of either faction. I based this assumption on the fact that they were melee (the concept of a ranged tank still doesn't make ANY sense to me) and were denoted by the developers themselves as "tanks."

Seems pretty simple, no?

Well, if we flash forward, and theorycraft has proven this, we find that Juggs/Guardians are the worst tanks in the pure sense of the word.

I assumed 3 things for certain prior to playing a Jugg and reaching 50.

1. I would sacrifice DPS.

2. I would have the capacity to absorb and mitigate a high volume of damage.

3. I'd have the best tools to manipulate fights towards conditions that were beneficial to my groups/parties.

The only thing I've found to be accurate of my initial assumptions is that I have sacrificed DPS. A LOT of it. But you know what? I'm okay with that. That was assumed in my planning phase.

What I'm NOT okay with are the tools I have to manipulate fights, and the amount of damage I can absorb and mitigate, particularly in PvP, as every class was given internal damage to effectively erase my purpose (this is in full champion gear minus the belt only), and otherwise capped expertise.

My ability to take damage should be directly proportionate to the damage I sacrifice. This is not the case.

Guard is a good ability, but the honest truth of the matter is that I'm never absorbing or mitigating ANY damage, but instead I'm dispersing the damage between 2 targets, that's it. The same damage is going through regardless. I just slow the burst pace. This is not good.

Off topic: A common fight I will encounter is a stealther popping out of stealth, knocking me down, at which time I'll immediately spend Unleash because I don't feel like being dead before I stand up (internal damage and I'm a "tank" ).

I will force choke (free channeled) -> sundering assault -> Ravage (2 hits) -> force push -> saber throw + force leap (to build rage) -> sundering assault -> [perform a whatever rotation necessary based on how my opponent reacts, or how I think he'll react].

By the time he's ready to fight back, I'm lucky if I have 50% life left, and he simply proceeds to finish me off with 70-90% life remaining. I cannot mitigate his damage effectively, and there's certainly nothing I can do to stay alive. Invincible, sabre ward, endure pain and no uses of backhand, force choke or any combination/rotation of CC abilities can help me win the fight, I just die a slower death for for a few seconds.

The final point being that I'm not mitigating damage in a fair or acceptable way to compensate for my dps.

I should restate that, as a tank, my concerns lie more in damage mitigation and battle manipulation than the dps I do.

A couple of proposed fixes, in PvP guard, or at least the Juggernaut/Guardian guards, should have attached them a damage mitigation bonus on top of the damage dispersion. The threat reduction serves no purpose in PvP and so we lose half of the ability's goodness.

Reduce the number of internal damage abilities in the game, or give Juggs/Guardians a low-tier buff resistance for it in the defensive tree (perhaps 3 levels @ 10% each - the latter solution is more feasible).

Increase their natural threat generation, an inherent, passive boost to the Jugg/Guardian classes on all attacks that scales appropriately for weak attacks and strong attacks.

Revisit and recalculate your passive and special absorption calculations per armor type, rating, and generator.

Give them a reliable AoE threat ability, be it a pulse or an active ability with a decent radius. (Remember the Paladin from DAoC, they controlled aggro not through DPS, but taunt abilities and a small chanting Heal Over Time that healed everyone in the group for a small amount every 6 seconds, helping them passively maintain aggro on themselves among groups. This would be a fine and excellent idea for the Jugg/Guardian. I wouldn't even need to heal, but just pulse a taunt to a certain radius).

All in all, I don't want to do more damage, I just want to stand longer, stronger, and be able to direct fights into favorable situations.


Quote: Originally Posted by Lazzerswords View Post
As a healer I cringe when I get a jugg tank; they simply cant grab aggro good enough- I take so much damage due to heal aggro, that I waste so much heat just to keep myself alive that sometime the tank dies.

CC? Its annoying to have to cc every pack. Makes the run go so slow.
Edit: Oh yeah, Unleash and, well, all CC breaking abilities need to have CC immunity attached to them after activation for some amount a time. 2, 4, 6 seconds... something. Otherwise they're only good for saving you a second or two after your resolve bar is full, and the ability goes to waste the majority of the time.

Errthu's Avatar


Errthu
01.20.2012 , 05:16 AM | #570
Tank assasins and Powertechs do more damage and have heals... and the only usefull thing we have are leaps.