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why nerf a 3dps class


meddani's Avatar


meddani
11.10.2018 , 07:01 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Curennos View Post
I'm just sitting here wondering why Fury has Bloody Slashes as its lv68 passive (which seems to basically be Deadly Saber but passive and slightly better), while Anni has pitiful 4.5 sec of 3% increased bleed damage.

Give Bloody Slashes/some variation to Anni, give Fury something else.
bloody slashes was in the carnage discipline pre 5.0, don't know why they changed that lol.

mrphstar's Avatar


mrphstar
11.19.2018 , 06:10 AM | #12
from a personal perspective its more about dps/effort than dps vs. other specs.

i play both anni and fury right now and i feel like annis rotation/priority-sytem is way harder than furys straight forward rotation.
only downside of fury is ressource management.

the harder the rotation and more apm you need to get the most out of any spec, the higher its damage should be compared to other specs.

imho anni is by far one of the most challenging rotations in the game besides operatives and IO mercs. it should parse accordingly.

which doenst mean they should nef fury. they just should buff anni, otherwise they should nerf more specs than just fury to maintain balance (juggs dot i-randomly-smash-buttons-and-still-parse-10-k spec i.e.)

Hoppinswtor's Avatar


Hoppinswtor
11.19.2018 , 08:13 AM | #13
Anni does not need a buff, or if it does, it would have to be a very minor one; it's easily one of the highest performing specs in NiM ops - alongside pyrotech, lethality, vengeance, and perhaps a few other specs in certain situations. It's more than capable of lighting up the scoreboard in PvP as well. It just has a skill cap on par with IO and Pyro, so you don't really see it used as much.

Fury's performance on a dummy doesn't translate very well to actual nightmare-tier operations; Anni and Carnage are both higher performing in raid, as it should be. Fury only needs one change, and it's for PvP: the cc immunity should be made a bit more salient to encourage better counterplay.
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mrphstar's Avatar


mrphstar
11.20.2018 , 09:50 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Hoppinswtor View Post
Anni does not need a buff, or if it does, it would have to be a very minor one; it's easily one of the highest performing specs in NiM ops - alongside pyrotech, lethality, vengeance, and perhaps a few other specs in certain situations. It's more than capable of lighting up the scoreboard in PvP as well. It just has a skill cap on par with IO and Pyro, so you don't really see it used as much.
thats what i´m talking about. it requieres much more skill or atleast APM to reach the same numbers with anni as with vengeance or fury i.e. so let it deal damage accordingly. IO obvsly shouldnt parse on par with melee specs allhough its rotation is pretty hard as well. not to mention the reflects of both, veng and IO which outparse any other dd in certain fights.

Quote: Originally Posted by Hoppinswtor View Post
Fury's performance on a dummy doesn't translate very well to actual nightmare-tier operations; Anni and Carnage are both higher performing in raid, as it should be. Fury only needs one change, and it's for PvP: the cc immunity should be made a bit more salient to encourage better counterplay.
why shouldnt it translate well? it should even work better in any boss fight since it itsnt affected by downtimes or phase transitions during a fight. anni needs ~30secs to reach its full potential everytime you lose uptime for more than 30secs (best case, assuming you just used annihilate). there are many fights were you actualy do have these 20-30sec breaks waiting for the next phase to start (brontes, izax, revan, m&b, tfb). and some of the challenges dont even last more than 30secs to give anni the chance to catch up in dps with other specs.
fury can just continue its rotatation and as long as the relocation of obliterate doesnt interfere with mechanics(revan) it should be totaly fine.

still, not saying veng or fury need a nerf. that would just lead to another chain reaction where you gotta nerf some of the burst specs to keep balance. but if you buff anni for 100-200dps, it would be just fair (cant talk about pyro or lethality and how hard their rotations actualy are, so i thought i put anni up there with these two, maybe it needs even more buff)

LudhaninRolgge's Avatar


LudhaninRolgge
11.20.2018 , 01:14 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by mrphstar View Post
the harder the rotation and more apm you need to get the most out of any spec, the higher its damage should be compared to other specs.
The rotation difficulty should play a very minor role in DPS. What if you make a class with crazy hard rotation, but godlike DCD ? I'll be pretty broken if it has the best DPS of the game. DCD, mobility, raid utility, passive defense, ranged vs melee and dot vs burst should all play a bigger role than rotation difficulty.
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Maxitrac's Avatar


Maxitrac
11.21.2018 , 05:02 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by mrphstar View Post
why shouldnt it translate well? it should even work better in any boss fight since it itsnt affected by downtimes or phase transitions during a fight. anni needs ~30secs to reach its full potential everytime you lose uptime for more than 30secs (best case, assuming you just used annihilate). there are many fights were you actualy do have these 20-30sec breaks waiting for the next phase to start (brontes, izax, revan, m&b, tfb). and some of the challenges dont even last more than 30secs to give anni the chance to catch up in dps with other specs.
fury can just continue its rotatation and as long as the relocation of obliterate doesnt interfere with mechanics(revan) it should be totaly fine.

still, not saying veng or fury need a nerf. that would just lead to another chain reaction where you gotta nerf some of the burst specs to keep balance. but if you buff anni for 100-200dps, it would be just fair (cant talk about pyro or lethality and how hard their rotations actualy are, so i thought i put anni up there with these two, maybe it needs even more buff)
First of all two of the fights you mentioned with downtime fury will kill itself or loose massive dps to survive in.

Second in all those fights you have 0 issues keeping up dps as anni and keeping you rotation going, except for Izax the downtime is very minimal to you. Brontes you can keep your stacks up by hitting reaches (which you can do if h know how to move while dpsing). Izax fair point you’ll loose dps but after that gap you don’t need your stacks. You will get 8 or 9 gcds off before you simply stand there and look pretty, this is the same for all dps. Revan you have plenty of time to build your rotation back so it’s not a big issue. MB you can hit blaster to keep your stacks up throughout the entire fight, but carnage is better for thieves fight. TFB you almost never have downtime to loose your stacks.
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RikuvonDrake's Avatar


RikuvonDrake
11.21.2018 , 05:06 AM | #17
Do we really need to have this discussion again, and even worse, have people write wall-of-text paragraphs built on assumptions regarding how developers balance classes, that we know are incorrect? The devs have their system of DPS rankings based on specs and if they are sustained mDPS, hybrid mDPS, sustained rDPS/burst mDPS etc. etc, can we just base arguments on that instead of anecdotal nonsense like what spec you personally find most difficult to play...

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mrphstar's Avatar


mrphstar
11.21.2018 , 07:07 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by LudhaninRolgge View Post
The rotation difficulty should play a very minor role in DPS. What if you make a class with crazy hard rotation, but godlike DCD ? I'll be pretty broken if it has the best DPS of the game. DCD, mobility, raid utility, passive defense, ranged vs melee and dot vs burst should all play a bigger role than rotation difficulty.
nobody said you shouldnt take DCDs into account when balancing classes. but since both specs we were talking about have (almost) the same DCDs, i didnt take that into account.

so whats left is the difficulty of the rotation. and i think we can all agree, that annis rotation is much harder than furys.

Quote: Originally Posted by Maxitrac View Post
First of all two of the fights you mentioned with downtime fury will kill itself or loose massive dps to survive in.

Second in all those fights you have 0 issues keeping up dps as anni and keeping you rotation going, except for Izax the downtime is very minimal to you. Brontes you can keep your stacks up by hitting reaches (which you can do if h know how to move while dpsing). Izax fair point you’ll loose dps but after that gap you don’t need your stacks. You will get 8 or 9 gcds off before you simply stand there and look pretty, this is the same for all dps. Revan you have plenty of time to build your rotation back so it’s not a big issue. MB you can hit blaster to keep your stacks up throughout the entire fight, but carnage is better for thieves fight. TFB you almost never have downtime to loose your stacks.
first of all, when talking about downtimes, i talked about anni. that fury is bad for revan, espacily at the core should be clear at that point. that doesnt make anni better for the rest of the fight, since it loses its stacks multiple times (atleast 2). i dont know which of the other fights fury would kill itself or lose dps, but feel free to enlighten me. if we are talking about m&B, cuz of mines etc, im sorry to bust your bubble, but fury does well in this fight. you just have to be precise with positioning before you use obliterate. in TFB there is atleast one downtime between outer and inner phase, which is long enough to lose stacks. and the tentacle fights arent long enough for anni to compensate for being forced to start with the opener again.

Quote: Originally Posted by RikuvonDrake View Post
Do we really need to have this discussion again, and even worse, have people write wall-of-text paragraphs built on assumptions regarding how developers balance classes, that we know are incorrect? The devs have their system of DPS rankings based on specs and if they are sustained mDPS, hybrid mDPS, sustained rDPS/burst mDPS etc. etc, can we just base arguments on that instead of anecdotal nonsense like what spec you personally find most difficult to play...
we are talking about how it SHOULD work, not how BW actualy does their balancing. thats subjective right, but its a forum to discuss such things.

but again, its not a "personal feeling" when is say anni is harder than fury.

you just have to take a look at the APM, the number of GCDs you need for one full cycle, the number of diffrent skills used, the ressource management and rng for proccs.
APM: anni ~54 vs. fury ~51
number of GCDs per rotation: 24 vs. 12
number of skills: 9 vs. 9
ressource management: annis rng based resource gain from dots vs. furys fixed rebuild every 12 GCDs
rng/proccs: annis dual saber throw is rng based. furys proccs are based on usage of other skills

in which world is that subjective?

WayOfTheWarriorx's Avatar


WayOfTheWarriorx
11.21.2018 , 10:19 PM | #19
The strategy and basis for which BW is currently 'balancing' classes "devs have their system of DPS rankings based on specs and if they are sustained mDPS, hybrid mDPS, sustained rDPS/burst mDPS etc. etc"

It's inherently flawed. You cannot get 'balance' using their system, because while the premise may be sound in theory , some of the specs themselves don't adhere to those characteristics that are typically associated in respect of spec types [categories]. You have sustained specs with burst level attack damage on some attacks, you have burst specs that have dots, and you have the rediuclous "quasi" class that they literally just made up [officially] for mechanical purposes . Not to object to the "quasi" type spec classification, just the way they implemented it. Even Bant himself, who's to this day we are still basing optimal class/specs builds equations on. Here's the original quotation -


Quote: Originally Posted by Goblin_Lackey View Post
Side Bar:
There is very little difference between Burst and Sustained in SWTOR. All of the DoT classes rely more on Big Hitting moves than they do DoTs and the Burst DPS have all been toned down to the point where most of their moves do same damage. The biggest difference between Burst and DoTs is not sustained damage, its ability to change targets quickly vs setup time. But there are very few fights that require a target to be killed in less than 10 GCDs which lets all of the DoT classes to stand equal to the Burst classes (and the DoT Application is already factored into the DPS for those classes).
Furthermore, where in you compare specs of the same spec types in this game, the order in which each classes in said spec type is assigned which is arbitrarily.

You will never get fair and decent balance using the current paradigm BW employs. [5.X]

The only way you get some semblance of balance is by studying the specs on an individual bases, to examine and weigh all that the spec brings with it [including off role-abilities being used off role.]. In my estimation I think 4.0 was a very good example of this overall.

Currently they do not take into account anything to do with DCDs, Healing, mobility, CC and anti-CC abilities, Pure DPS/Hybrid DPS [in my opinion 'pure dps specs' and 'hybrid dps specs are a valid consideration but not in any extreme sense], buffs, rotation difficulty and off-role abilities .

Heal to DPS ratios are also a notable issue IMO currently. That's why you seeing people who had the highest damage output also healing in excess to of a million at times in PVP scoreboards while other classes with far less heals than they compete with them [kill]. Heals are the natural counterbalance to DPS. While DCDs are relevant, heals are even more so, most classes having both. DPS takes health away, heals put health back.

Sustained specs shouldn't be dropping 25-30k bombs [single attack] while also having put multiple bleeds going at the same time. It doesn't matter what they have determined to constitute spec types for their 'class balance stratagem if they are only that in name because they are not functioning as such on a mechanical level.

You take everything into account on a spec by spec basis and use that as at least in part in considerations of spec comparisons. But, being realistic, you will never make everyone happy even if it's more fair and balanced overall. - As I see it though, many people don't want 'fair', not really, unfortunately some only want what's best for themselves.

LudhaninRolgge's Avatar


LudhaninRolgge
11.21.2018 , 11:04 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by mrphstar View Post
nobody said you shouldnt take DCDs into account when balancing classes. but since both specs we were talking about have (almost) the same DCDs, i didnt take that into account.

so whats left is the difficulty of the rotation. and i think we can all agree, that annis rotation is much harder than furys.
You didn't read everything I wrote, did you ?
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