Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

(Not sure if in right category) Rage Jugg vs Fury Mara?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Sentinel / Marauder
(Not sure if in right category) Rage Jugg vs Fury Mara?

KendraP's Avatar


KendraP
08.06.2018 , 11:05 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Ld-Siris View Post
There are a couple things you guys have gotten wrong. The main thing is you cannot compare a Rage Jugg to a Fury mara.

5.0 saw an identity change to Carnage and Fury. They switch the roles. Though they didn't specifically call this out, you can clearly see the change in their post "How Class Balance Happens" during the 5.3 changes. I will post a snippet below. Basically Carnage is now the burst spec and Fury is the Hybrid (Quasi) spec now. Rage should have higher burst but lower overall DPS while Fury should have slightly lower burst but overall greater sustain DPS. This is why since 5.0 Carnage was heavily nerfed and why Fury was buffed.

Part of these changes not only saw to lower the sustain DPS of carnage but also nerf its resource management. The inverse is true for fury. They need to boost the sustainability of fury while slightly lowering its burst. Ultimately Carnage is the old Fury and Fury is the new Carnage.

If you want to compare burst, the fair comparison is between the Rage Jugg and the Carnage Marauder.

If you want to just compare the differences between Rage and Fury you must keep the above in mind. Though their rotations and play style is very similar, their functions are completely different.



BTW The classes in each list are alphabetical and not by their specific damage. Also the damage % is just a for example not their actual targets.
except we aren't comparing their sustained damage. we are comparing their functionality in pvp. these are 2 very different things. for the sake of 100% honesty i never understood what, exactly, semi-sustained was (if it's " classes that have a dot, but are burst" there are many more than fury (including rage)). and btw, concentration currently is the best average sustained dps spec, directly contra-indicating their own balancing mechanism.

Ld-Siris's Avatar


Ld-Siris
08.07.2018 , 12:14 AM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by KendraP View Post
except we aren't comparing their sustained damage. we are comparing their functionality in pvp. these are 2 very different things. for the sake of 100% honesty i never understood what, exactly, semi-sustained was (if it's " classes that have a dot, but are burst" there are many more than fury (including rage)). and btw, concentration currently is the best average sustained dps spec, directly contra-indicating their own balancing mechanism.
I was describing the difference in functionality. They have completely different roles. And to clearify, marauders and snipers are the only 2 classes with 3 dps specs. Their third spec is a hybrid between burst and sustain dps. For marauders thatís fury (used to be carnage) and for snipers itís engineering.

Part of controlling sustain dps is not just about damage output but also resource management. What they like to do is make it so that you physically canít keep attacking because you ran out of resources, in this case rage. What makes fury good is that it is a hybrid. It has a good burst phase (not as good as burst spec) and then has good sustain dps (not as good as a sustain spec) to carry through.

And no fury is not the best adv sustain dps spec. Anni, hatred, and veng can easily out dps it. The draw back tho can be the fact they do rely on dot spread. But even without they still beat it.

And if you want to talk about pure functionality a lot of that comes down to class and not spec. Jugg has more because it can protect while marauder is only dps.

KendraP's Avatar


KendraP
08.07.2018 , 07:30 AM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Ld-Siris View Post
I was describing the difference in functionality. They have completely different roles. And to clearify, marauders and snipers are the only 2 classes with 3 dps specs. Their third spec is a hybrid between burst and sustain dps. For marauders thatís fury (used to be carnage) and for snipers itís engineering.
Per your own quoted dev post its virulence for snipers. I do happen to know engineering is a dot spec, but I dont pretend to understand much about snipers at all (beyond how much i hate fire probes haha). Nothing you said described a difference in function. It described a difference in sustained dps.
Quote:
Part of controlling sustain dps is not just about damage output but also resource management. What they like to do is make it so that you physically canít keep attacking because you ran out of resources, in this case rage. What makes fury good is that it is a hybrid. It has a good burst phase (not as good as burst spec) and then has good sustain dps (not as good as a sustain spec) to carry through.
I personally have no issues resource management wise in focus or concentration. Sent has zen, guardian has combat focus, both have a small damage + give me focus ability.
Quote:
And no fury is not the best adv sustain dps spec. Anni, hatred, and veng can easily out dps it. The draw back tho can be the fact they do rely on dot spread. But even without they still beat it.
http://parsely.io/parser/stats
No, that is what is intended by the devs supposedly, according to the post you quoted. That is obviously not what is being experienced. Did you really think I would make a claim and not check first?
Quote:
And if you want to talk about pure functionality a lot of that comes down to class and not spec. Jugg has more because it can protect while marauder is only dps.
And yes, I've been saying myself their way of keeping tanks with a purpose is to ensure dps specs of tank capable classes are too squishy to utilize guard. This is why i, as a guardian main, could fall behind making guard tank only. I will swap guard on vigi for an anti-focus any day. Give the class an anti-focus and they could take taunt away too for all i care.

Any way around it, the point is: everything a focus guardian can do, a concentration sent can do better except guard (assuming both teams have a healer). The purpose of both specs is to burst single targets. Sent's toolbox is much better at keeping you on your target, with double leap and transcendence.

Thus, the extension to my argument that vigi is a better spec for guardians, as it excells at multi-target pressure, which is far less reliant on speeding around chasing one target. Vigi has a niche as a "bursty" dot spec, with probably the easiest dot spread in the game. I only say the skill thing i did earlier, because the difficulty with focus is not rotation. The difficulty with focus is keeping up with the target (usually a healer) you're trying to burst down. It is practically guaranteed to be a more mobile class than you, focus lacks vigi or concentrations leap immunities, and the class already lacks an anti-focus. All of these hamstring a single target burst spec.

So thus, whatever the devs say or even believe, at this point in time for pvp focus is effectively a lesser concentration. I'm not saying don't play focus. I do myself on occasion. But if someone is asking which is better, the answer is obviously concentration.

AdjeYo's Avatar


AdjeYo
08.07.2018 , 07:53 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Ld-Siris View Post
There are a couple things you guys have gotten wrong. The main thing is you cannot compare a Rage Jugg to a Fury mara.

5.0 saw an identity change to Carnage and Fury. They switch the roles. Though they didn't specifically call this out, you can clearly see the change in their post "How Class Balance Happens" during the 5.3 changes. I will post a snippet below. Basically Carnage is now the burst spec and Fury is the Hybrid (Quasi) spec now. Rage should have higher burst but lower overall DPS while Fury should have slightly lower burst but overall greater sustain DPS. This is why since 5.0 Carnage was heavily nerfed and why Fury was buffed.

Part of these changes not only saw to lower the sustain DPS of carnage but also nerf its resource management. The inverse is true for fury. They need to boost the sustainability of fury while slightly lowering its burst. Ultimately Carnage is the old Fury and Fury is the new Carnage.

If you want to compare burst, the fair comparison is between the Rage Jugg and the Carnage Marauder.

If you want to just compare the differences between Rage and Fury you must keep the above in mind. Though their rotations and play style is very similar, their functions are completely different.



BTW The classes in each list are alphabetical and not by their specific damage. Also the damage % is just a for example not their actual targets.
Well they can put Fury in the semi-burst category all they want. In PvE Fury has strictly better burst than Rage. In PvP they're a bit closer because Juggs can get some extra burst in with Pooled Hatred. Their burst is still very much similar. If you ask me it's fair game to compare the burst of Rage and Fury, because whatever category Bioware wants to write them up in, as it stands Fury packs just as much burst as Rage, if not more.

Ld-Siris's Avatar


Ld-Siris
08.07.2018 , 09:50 AM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by KendraP View Post
Per your own quoted dev post its virulence for snipers. I do happen to know engineering is a dot spec, but I dont pretend to understand much about snipers at all (beyond how much i hate fire probes haha). Nothing you said described a difference in function. It described a difference in sustained dps.
My apologies. Yes it is virulence now. Im pretty sure befor it was engi but I also don't follow snipers as it is my least favorite class to play. functionality of burst vs sustain is different especially pvp. Sure on a pve boss fight there isn't much difference but when it comes to killing mobs or pvp it is different. Its easier to see the difference when there are heals.

Quote: Originally Posted by KendraP
I personally have no issues resource management wise in focus or concentration. Sent has zen, guardian has combat focus, both have a small damage + give me focus ability.
I didn't find much difference in resource management either however others have state so. Still with Rage there does seem to be a small window where you are out.

Quote: Originally Posted by KendraP
http://parsely.io/parser/stats
No, that is what is intended by the devs supposedly, according to the post you quoted. That is obviously not what is being experienced. Did you really think I would make a claim and not check first?
I have no idea what those states are even base one. what kind of players did the parse or anything. I assume this is straight dummy parsing and in fact doesn't account for dot spread.

Quote: Originally Posted by KendraP
And yes, I've been saying myself their way of keeping tanks with a purpose is to ensure dps specs of tank capable classes are too squishy to utilize guard. This is why i, as a guardian main, could fall behind making guard tank only. I will swap guard on vigi for an anti-focus any day. Give the class an anti-focus and they could take taunt away too for all i care.

Any way around it, the point is: everything a focus guardian can do, a concentration sent can do better except guard (assuming both teams have a healer). The purpose of both specs is to burst single targets. Sent's toolbox is much better at keeping you on your target, with double leap and transcendence.

Thus, the extension to my argument that vigi is a better spec for guardians, as it excells at multi-target pressure, which is far less reliant on speeding around chasing one target. Vigi has a niche as a "bursty" dot spec, with probably the easiest dot spread in the game. I only say the skill thing i did earlier, because the difficulty with focus is not rotation. The difficulty with focus is keeping up with the target (usually a healer) you're trying to burst down. It is practically guaranteed to be a more mobile class than you, focus lacks vigi or concentrations leap immunities, and the class already lacks an anti-focus. All of these hamstring a single target burst spec.

So thus, whatever the devs say or even believe, at this point in time for pvp focus is effectively a lesser concentration. I'm not saying don't play focus. I do myself on occasion. But if someone is asking which is better, the answer is obviously concentration.
Some of what you say I agree with and some I don't. Juggs have some movement tools but mara has better. that said tho Juggs have 3 life bars and in matches that have 0 heals you definitely survive longer as a jugg then a mara. I play both and that is my personal experience. And whats this 2 leaps nonsense? Rage gets 2 leaps as well. And tho rage doesn't have veng cc immunity you can still get knockback immunity.

Ld-Siris's Avatar


Ld-Siris
08.07.2018 , 09:53 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by AdjeYo View Post
Well they can put Fury in the semi-burst category all they want. In PvE Fury has strictly better burst than Rage. In PvP they're a bit closer because Juggs can get some extra burst in with Pooled Hatred. Their burst is still very much similar. If you ask me it's fair game to compare the burst of Rage and Fury, because whatever category Bioware wants to write them up in, as it stands Fury packs just as much burst as Rage, if not more.
Better burst? Rage burst hits harder than fury burst. If it doesn't then maybe you are gearing wrong. The fact people need to remember is that everyone and their mother these days is taking the high alacrity build. Which Im not saying is bad but when you do it on a burst spec you are actually nerfing your own burst in favor of more overall dps.

KendraP's Avatar


KendraP
08.07.2018 , 10:42 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Ld-Siris View Post
My apologies. Yes it is virulence now. Im pretty sure befor it was engi but I also don't follow snipers as it is my least favorite class to play. functionality of burst vs sustain is different especially pvp. Sure on a pve boss fight there isn't much difference but when it comes to killing mobs or pvp it is different. Its easier to see the difference when there are heals.
I am obviously basing my judgement on the assumption both teams have heals as clearly stated. And yes, burst vs sustained is different. What you cannot seem to answer is: what makes concentration less bursty than focus? Being specific, i attmepted to answer this by saying the riposte proc gives focus another "burst" ability, and by pointing out reflect. Even after digging through the skill trees this was the best i could find, both have the same dot ability, both had mostly the same procs as i remember.
Quote:
I didn't find much difference in resource management either however others have state so. Still with Rage there does seem to be a small window where you are out.
You didnt find a difference and you feel a window where you have no focus? Now you're directly contradicting yourself.

Quote:
I have no idea what those states are even base one. what kind of players did the parse or anything. I assume this is straight dummy parsing and in fact doesn't account for dot spread.
Of course its based on parsing dummies. For comparing specs sustained damage, parsing is a perfectly reasonable way to do this, as variables like mechanics are eliminated. I picked the average because i felt if i went to the damage leaderboard, skill would be the biggest factor. The idea is that if there are enough people submitting parses, the damage would appear as a normal distribution with the stated average. The number of inputs and standard deviation would also be useful things to know, but i digress. Better yet would be a data histogram.

The point is, when computing single target sustained dps, parses are a perfectly viable comparison tool. Dot spreading is irrelevant to single target sustained damage, and the point i was trying to prove was that concentration is the best parsing single target sustained dps spec. Better even than watchman which is the dot spec for a sentinel (and thus according to the devs is supposed to be among the highest single target sustained specs, along with vigi, lethality, pt dot spec)

Quote:
Some of what you say I agree with and some I don't. Juggs have some movement tools but mara has better. that said tho Juggs have 3 life bars and in matches that have 0 heals you definitely survive longer as a jugg then a mara. I play both and that is my personal experience. And whats this 2 leaps nonsense? Rage gets 2 leaps as well. And tho rage doesn't have veng cc immunity you can still get knockback immunity.
Where are you getting three? FD as a dps is at best one additional life every 90s if you take the utility for it (i consider this utility mandatory personally for pvp, but many say they can't survive another 90s without it, and i can see that point because it happens to me literally every time i go dps as a guardian). And i again stated that my point on survivability was assuming both teams had a healer. I stated this explicitly.

How many matches have you had with no healers lately? I always run with my buddy, who is a healer (and who i generally tank for) so i really wouldn't know. I know if i am running 2 healers, i fairly frequently see at least 2 on the other team as well, often more. We had a match earlier this week where there were 7 healers: 2 from my group of 6 plus 1 pug, qnd then 4 imps. (Yes it was aids). This is also even more irrelevant after today, as if there are 2 healers in queue, each team will have one.

On the non-FD front things are even worse for guardians. Sents have rebuke, guarded by the force, camo, and ward. (Not counting the debuff, because i dont remember if that is a concentration thing or a sent thing).
Guardians have FD, reflect, enure, and ward.

Rebuke and guarded are always useful, and while everything in pvp is situational, these two abilities are useful in practically any situation where the sent is taking damage. Camo is pretty situational, relies on the opponent not finding you, etc, but at least it is an actual anti-focus tool (more accurately, a disengage).

FD now that it has been rescaled is an extra life, you won't hear me denying that. It is also quite easy to work around. Kite, stun, mez, do something to keep him from hitting you until it wears off. Enure thanks to the fall off is highly situational. It can save you in a pinch... but your healer better be paying attention and/or your opponent almost dead. Reflect is amazing, my favorite ability in the game, and its supposed to be our anti-focus. Except its not really. Unlike merc reflect, direct melee classes can tunnel you through reflect (reflect for guardians works on any single target direct force, range, or tech attack). And it doesnt heal us like a mercs does, so its not an extra life (again, a well timed FD is).

Ward is quite good, but i dont feel the need to detail it as it is avaliable to both classes.

So i conclude, assuming both teams have a healer, sentinels have the overall better survivability because their defensives are far less situational.

And the 2 leaps i talk about are 2 distance leaps from the utility any sentinel can take. For a concentration sent thats two max range leap and the focus leap, for a total of 3. The knockback immunity is on a utility that i take, but does directly compete with some of the movement enhancing/root breaking options. I personally have just accepted that guardian is supposed to be a less mobile class by design and attempt to play the class for what its best suited, and that best suit is vigi.

Quote: Originally Posted by Ld-Siris View Post
Better burst? Rage burst hits harder than fury burst. If it doesn't then maybe you are gearing wrong. The fact people need to remember is that everyone and their mother these days is taking the high alacrity build. Which Im not saying is bad but when you do it on a burst spec you are actually nerfing your own burst in favor of more overall dps.
We must assume for the sake of variable elimination that both specs are gearing the same way. Better gear means you hit harder, duh. More crit means bigger one off hits, but less often. Again, duh.

Assuming both specs are running the high alacrity build, OR both specs are running the high crit build, what in the focus/concentration tree (or base class abilities) gives focus more burst? I pointed out riposte procs and reflect.

Did i miss a passive where a guardians focused burst gets procced differently or more than a sentinels? I am asking for specifics, if you understand the devs point on this matter, because frankly i never have. They can say what they will, to me concentration and focus are both bursty specs.

Ld-Siris's Avatar


Ld-Siris
08.07.2018 , 11:53 AM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by KendraP
I am obviously basing my judgement on the assumption both teams have heals as clearly stated. And yes, burst vs sustained is different. What you cannot seem to answer is: what makes concentration less bursty than focus? Being specific, i attmepted to answer this by saying the riposte proc gives focus another "burst" ability, and by pointing out reflect. Even after digging through the skill trees this was the best i could find, both have the same dot ability, both had mostly the same procs as i remember.
Um I don't ever remember you stating the assumption about heals. That aside how about the fact that the burst abilities for the rage jugg purely hit harder then the burst abilities. Someone else even stated this fact with the 50k hit comments. Of course this depends on how you gear. In fact even before the game to fury, Jugg rage has always hit harder but the marauder is able to hit more often. EIther way you seem to keep changing your tactic. I was originally simply trying to anser the OP's question.

Before you ask no I have not specifically set up the exact same gear and test. Maybe you should run that test if you want a sure thing answer.

Quote: Originally Posted by KendraP
You didnt find a difference and you feel a window where you have no focus? Now you're directly contradicting yourself.
Why don't you reread the sentence you quoted me on. I said I didn't find MUCH difference.

Quote: Originally Posted by KendraP
Of course its based on parsing dummies. For comparing specs sustained damage, parsing is a perfectly reasonable way to do this, as variables like mechanics are eliminated. I picked the average because i felt if i went to the damage leaderboard, skill would be the biggest factor. The idea is that if there are enough people submitting parses, the damage would appear as a normal distribution with the stated average. The number of inputs and standard deviation would also be useful things to know, but i digress. Better yet would be a data histogram.

The point is, when computing single target sustained dps, parses are a perfectly viable comparison tool. Dot spreading is irrelevant to single target sustained damage, and the point i was trying to prove was that concentration is the best parsing single target sustained dps spec. Better even than watchman which is the dot spec for a sentinel (and thus according to the devs is supposed to be among the highest single target sustained specs, along with vigi, lethality, pt dot spec)
This just comes down to what the devs consider for balance. They may look at overall dps potential and not the narrow view of single target dps. If you made say anni better at single target dps and then when anni dot spreads its damage is way too high it would be consider over performing. IDK I can't speak for the dev team. I do know another factor they consider for dps is your ability to survive. If you have more survival than you being alive = more dps. I mean look at leth op. Its damage is terrible but its ability to survive is ridiculously high. The dev team stated this on their adjustments.

Quote: Originally Posted by KendraP
Where are you getting three? FD as a dps is at best one additional life every 90s if you take the utility for it (i consider this utility mandatory personally for pvp, but many say they can't survive another 90s without it, and i can see that point because it happens to me literally every time i go dps as a guardian). And i again stated that my point on survivability was assuming both teams had a healer. I stated this explicitly.
Your are forgetting EP + medpack is also an additional life. Hence 3 life bars.

Quote: Originally Posted by KendraP
How many matches have you had with no healers lately? I always run with my buddy, who is a healer (and who i generally tank for) so i really wouldn't know. I know if i am running 2 healers, i fairly frequently see at least 2 on the other team as well, often more. We had a match earlier this week where there were 7 healers: 2 from my group of 6 plus 1 pug, qnd then 4 imps. (Yes it was aids). This is also even more irrelevant after today, as if there are 2 healers in queue, each team will have one.
All the time. Yes now that the new patch is alive it should be less likely. But just because you always run with a healer doesn't mean everyone is. Sure always having a healer makes a couple of the jugs abilities less useful so it can look like the marauder has more defenses, but its exactly true. With no heals a Jugg has more survivability than a marauder.

Quote: Originally Posted by KendraP
On the non-FD front things are even worse for guardians. Sents have rebuke, guarded by the force, camo, and ward. (Not counting the debuff, because i dont remember if that is a concentration thing or a sent thing).
Guardians have FD, reflect, enure, and ward.

Rebuke and guarded are always useful, and while everything in pvp is situational, these two abilities are useful in practically any situation where the sent is taking damage. Camo is pretty situational, relies on the opponent not finding you, etc, but at least it is an actual anti-focus tool (more accurately, a disengage).

FD now that it has been rescaled is an extra life, you won't hear me denying that. It is also quite easy to work around. Kite, stun, mez, do something to keep him from hitting you until it wears off. Enure thanks to the fall off is highly situational. It can save you in a pinch... but your healer better be paying attention and/or your opponent almost dead. Reflect is amazing, my favorite ability in the game, and its supposed to be our anti-focus. Except its not really. Unlike merc reflect, direct melee classes can tunnel you through reflect (reflect for guardians works on any single target direct force, range, or tech attack). And it doesnt heal us like a mercs does, so its not an extra life (again, a well timed FD is).
Ok you have a couple things messed here so lets iron them out.
ED (FD) As you say can be easily get around because they stop attacking you??? That is the definition of an anti focus.... They stop attacking you just like the mercs reflect. The difference is that it doesn't reflect damage back. On the plus side on ED over merc's reflect is that AOE still will heal you and for the merc's reflect you can by pass it by aoeing the merc as it doesn't stop aoe. When a merc reflects I don't stop atticking him I just shift to aoe to counterplay. Along with saber reflect the jugg has 2 antifocus abilities. Or you heal up just like the merc tho more effectively.

Saber reflect is an excellent antifocus ability. Its weakness is direct melee damage, just like the mercs as aoe. just like force camo is you cant attack. Speaking of I believe that saber reflect and force camo have the same duration. duration that can be increased with utilities.

As for ward, you forgetting the jugg passive that makes the jugg immune to damage for the first couple of seconds? Its almost (though not quite because the duration is shorter) like having your own undying rage.

Quote: Originally Posted by KendraP
So i conclude, assuming both teams have a healer, sentinels have the overall better survivability because their defensives are far less situational.
Like I said above, yes having a healer dampens jugg defensive abilities somewhat because they have life gain abilities. That said however if you are being healed and still dying you can healer yourself on top of the healer so its still better survivability in most situations.

Quote: Originally Posted by KendraP
And the 2 leaps i talk about are 2 distance leaps from the utility any sentinel can take. For a concentration sent thats two max range leap and the focus leap, for a total of 3. The knockback immunity is on a utility that i take, but does directly compete with some of the movement enhancing/root breaking options. I personally have just accepted that guardian is supposed to be a less mobile class by design and attempt to play the class for what its best suited, and that best suit is vigi.
What marauder/sents do you know that take this utility? Of the dozens of Marauders and Sentinels I talk to and theory craft with no one takes that utility because it is worthless. There are better ones out there. In fact I have yet to talk to anyone that takes it. I even tried it for a while. Force camo is better for this used as an OCD and thus when used this way negates its DCD aspects.

And yes a jug is less mobile than marauder but you are also forgetting force push as it can easily stop many mobility abilities (like a healers force speed as you specifically mentioned) as well as chilling scream, a spammable aoe slow.

KendraP's Avatar


KendraP
08.07.2018 , 12:45 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Ld-Siris View Post
Um I don't ever remember you stating the assumption about heals.
Quote: Originally Posted by KendraP View Post
Any way around it, the point is: everything a focus guardian can do, a concentration sent can do better except guard (assuming both teams have a healer).
Here, most recently. Again, i don't make claims I didn't check out first.

Quote:
That aside how about the fact that the burst abilities for the rage jugg purely hit harder then the burst abilities. Someone else even stated this fact with the 50k hit comments. Of course this depends on how you gear. In fact even before the game to fury, Jugg rage has always hit harder but the marauder is able to hit more often. EIther way you seem to keep changing your tactic. I was originally simply trying to anser the OP's question.
Comments like "this one time i got a 50k hit" mean squat all. What was your gear and your target's gear? Was there bolster? I view all 50k comments with skepticism with no proof or details. Specifically, what in the skill trees makes focus hit harder and slower? The only reason it hits slower in pvp js because of time on target issues caused by low mobility melee class.

I would love to know, is there a passive i missed looking at both trees? The big differences i could think of were riposte proccing and reflect. Other than the classes are practically rotationally identical.

Also, i haven't changed my tune once in this thread. My point has always been: everything focus can do, concentration can do better except guard and self heal. (And focus really sucks at guarding, and the self heal is easy to work around or simply burst through).

Quote:
Before you ask no I have not specifically set up the exact same gear and test. Maybe you should run that test if you want a sure thing answer.
I do. My focus guardian has full 248 high alacrity gear and 240 augments, my concentration sent has full 248 gear and 236 augments. The difference, if it exists, has been negligible except for the time on tsrget issues i experienced with focus.

Quote:
This just comes down to what the devs consider for balance. They may look at overall dps potential and not the narrow view of single target dps. If you made say anni better at single target dps and then when anni dot spreads its damage is way too high it would be consider over performing. IDK I can't speak for the dev team. I do know another factor they consider for dps is your ability to survive. If you have more survival than you being alive = more dps. I mean look at leth op. Its damage is terrible but its ability to survive is ridiculously high. The dev team stated this on their adjustments.
As i have stated everywhere, and i guess explicitly need to state here as well: assuming both teams have healers, sentinel has the superior survivability (talking concentration v focus strictly for the purposes of this argument). And yet it has the superior single target sustained damage as well.

Again, to me they are practically identical. What about concentration makes it more sustained than focus? I stated reasons focus could be considered "burstier", not that i feel either of those are substantial enough to warrant a different classification.

Because the devs said so is a terrible excuse for an answer.
Btw, lethality is the 5th highest parsing single target sustained spec, behind vigi and ahead of serenity shadows. Does serenity have superior survivability to lethality? http://parsely.io/parser/stats

Quote:
Your are forgetting EP + medpack is also an additional life. Hence 3 life bars.
Both classes have medpacks. If enure is counting as a full life then camo + medpack is one too

Quote:
All the time. Yes now that the new patch is alive it should be less likely. But just because you always run with a healer doesn't mean everyone is. Sure always having a healer makes a couple of the jugs abilities less useful so it can look like the marauder has more defenses, but its exactly true. With no heals a Jugg has more survivability than a marauder.
With no heals maybe. If my buddies arent on, frankly i have less headache inducing things i could be doing than pvp on pub side SS. Assuming a healer, sentinel is better. Even if neither has a healer, sent can still function because it has tools to deal with focus. Guardian doesn't.

Quote:
Ok you have a couple things messed here so lets iron them out.
ED (FD) As you say can be easily get around because they stop attacking you??? That is the definition of an anti focus.... They stop attacking you just like the mercs reflect. The difference is that it doesn't reflect damage back. On the plus side on ED over merc's reflect is that AOE still will heal you and for the merc's reflect you can by pass it by aoeing the merc as it doesn't stop aoe. When a merc reflects I don't stop atticking him I just shift to aoe to counterplay. Along with saber reflect the jugg has 2 antifocus abilities. Or you heal up just like the merc tho more effectively.
On FD, you are the incorrect one. I gave the kiting and don't hit jim advice based on 1v1 settings. If its multiple people hitting the juggie, FD does not function. Its 12 stacks, on a 90s CD. Burst through it with overwhelming force and the guardian will die anyway. Thus, FD is not an anti-focus tool; it is LESS effective under focus. Unlike a merc reflect, which is MORE effective under focus as more people will likely hit him, and thus heal him more. FD does NOT prevent or reduce incoming damage in any way.

Quote:
Saber reflect is an excellent antifocus ability. Its weakness is direct melee damage, just like the mercs as aoe. just like force camo is you cant attack. Speaking of I believe that saber reflect and force camo have the same duration. duration that can be increased with utilities.
The reflect duration increase is a mandatory utility, in my opinion. Camo is 6 seconds on a 45 second CD. Reflect is 3 seconds (5 with mandatory utility) on a 60 second CD.
Thus camo is longer, can be used more often, and situationally better at avoiding incoming damage. Reflect can be hit by both direct melee and aoe, and unlike mercs, doesn't heal (I'm still bitter about mercs getting reflect). Even if you were to use FD and reflect at the same time, its still strictly worse than mercs.

Quote:
As for ward, you forgetting the jugg passive that makes the jugg immune to damage for the first couple of seconds? Its almost (though not quite because the duration is shorter) like having your own undying rage.
Name that passive. I call BS. The closest thing i can think of is the leap immunity and DR that vigi gets. And which is, by the one, one of my stated reasons for running vigi over focus.

Quote:
Like I said above, yes having a healer dampens jugg defensive abilities somewhat because they have life gain abilities.
I didnt say anything about healers dampening anything. The point is, ahem, sentinel defensives are better than guardian ones assuming both teams have a healer.

Quote:
What marauder/sents do you know that take this utility? Of the dozens of Marauders I talk to and theory craft with no one takes that utility because it is worthless. There are better ones other there. In fact I have yet to talk to anyone that takes it.
Do enlighten me as to what is superior. Currently attempting to conduct a poll of guildies - offhand i know at least one other person does. I take it because i find it useful. Sentinel's primary advantage is mobility and time on target. The double leap helps take adavantage of this, especially in a pvp setting.

Quote:
And yes a jug is less mobile than marauder but you are also forgetting force push as it can easily stop many mobility abilities (like a healers force speed as you specifically mentioned) as well as chilling scream, a spammable aoe slow.
Force push also contributes substaintially to potentially white-barring your target, and js unusable on an already whitbarred target. Push is far more situational than being able to have your own mobility. Also, the CD on push is 60s and the cd on force speed is 20s, so yeah thats a direct counter. I use freezing force quite a bit, but its hardly the same as being able to run circles around anyone else.

AdjeYo's Avatar


AdjeYo
08.07.2018 , 01:47 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Ld-Siris View Post
Better burst? Rage burst hits harder than fury burst. If it doesn't then maybe you are gearing wrong. The fact people need to remember is that everyone and their mother these days is taking the high alacrity build. Which Im not saying is bad but when you do it on a burst spec you are actually nerfing your own burst in favor of more overall dps.
Fury gets a 15% surge bonus on their Raging Burst that Rage lacks, ergo their Raging Bursts hit harder. There's no real passives Rage gets to make up for it, the only way you're beating that burst is with Pooled Hatred, but it's situational if that actually gets on your big hitters or your fillers, and still leaves Rage with less burst in PvE. Single hit attacks (like force scream) hit equally hard on both, whereas attacks which can use two sabers will hit slightly higher on Jugg, but the offhand damage more than makes up for the difference. Just look up any parse, Fury outbursts Rage.