Sorry this post got so long.. But you have to look at from my perspective.. The bickering over whether or not is a class or not is really irrelevant.. Bioware put a lot of work in to making the process easy and unlikely to mess up.. Also all those warning.. Not to mention an extra stop at an NPC aqain just to make sure we hear the warning..

No need to apologise, I actually appreciate the time you've taken to expand on the prerelease beta period. Unfortunately I didn't have a rig capable of running SWTOR at that time, nor have I ever been lucky enough to get into betas

As to the choice, I wish they had made the AC choice one made at first level. It's a lot clearer and doesn't leave any sense that you've made the wrong choice after you've grown attached to a character.

There is also the issue that AC swapping will pretty much make the idea that one character can't tank and heal, somewhat irrelevant..

I also think it's important that a character doesn't have access to Tanking abilities and Healing abilities at the same time. I know I've mentioned this before, and I know other MMOs have allowed a mix of tanking and healing abilities on the same build. However having experienced how much hardier a companion is (Treek) when they have access to both sets at the same time I can't help but feel slightly justified that it would make issues balancing PvP even harder.

The truth is though that while AC swapping would allow a character to potentially be a Tank or a Healer they would not retain the full sets of abilities at the same time. I feel this is an important distinction. The choice is Tank OR Heal, definitely not Tank AND Heal.

Sorry for typos..

No worries, I don't tend to pick folk up for typos or grammar even though I get a slight tic if an apostrophe is used wrongly

See.. This is where you think people are stupid.. There is no post history.. There is no way to look at previous versions of posts and no way to know if it has been edited or when.. So that statement is simply false.. I wouldn't worry about my credibility, I would worry about how your going to conjure up a post history that shows a post has been edited and when.. Also, if you did have a post history.. You would see that it wasn't edited.. I never edited that post.. Not even for typos..

 

But don't worry.. I know your nonexistent post history says otherwise.. So getting you to believe facts isn't going to happen.. You have a post history and nobody can dispute that??

I don't think people are stupid. There is a post history for every community member.

Nuff said.

 

I also think it's important that a character doesn't have access to Tanking abilities and Healing abilities at the same time. I know I've mentioned this before, and I know other MMOs have allowed a mix of tanking and healing abilities on the same build. However having experienced how much hardier a companion is (Treek) when they have access to both sets at the same time I can't help but feel slightly justified that it would make issues balancing PvP even harder.

There is an MMO (a failed one due to rushing it to release WAY too soon) called Vanguard in which the paladin class was a tank with access to healing capabilities. I was able to tank small group content while self healing and never would drop below 50% health. In large group content I could self heal everything but the bosses.

Needless to say, no one ever wanted to duel a paladin, which was the only form of PvP at release. I played for one month then stopped at the absurdity and the fact over half of the game world was broken and features not functioning in the game yet that were advertised as being in it.

No need to apologise, I actually appreciate the time you've taken to expand on the prerelease beta period. Unfortunately I didn't have a rig capable of running SWTOR at that time, nor have I ever been lucky enough to get into betas

As to the choice, I wish they had made the AC choice one made at first level. It's a lot clearer and doesn't leave any sense that you've made the wrong choice after you've grown attached to a character.

What was amazing to me was how fast it all came together.. My first time playing this game was a mess.. It was fun, but a mess.. Not all the quests worked.. It crashed a few times.. There was this stuff that looked like water but didn't act like water.. Some of the NPC's didn't know where the ground was.. Ghost images of the taxi speeders were being left everywhere.. The interface was clunky.. The lock button didn't work half the time.. It was funny.. With each build, I would just go and report the same bugs over and over again.. By the time we got to late Nov. everything had shaped up and cleaned up.. They had made a few beauty passes.. Water acted like water.. I still have a picture from the last day of the beta.. We had a dance party on Coruscant in front of the Senate tower.. By the time they closed the beta.. All the beta testers had version 1.0..

I also think it's important that a character doesn't have access to Tanking abilities and Healing abilities at the same time. I know I've mentioned this before, and I know other MMOs have allowed a mix of tanking and healing abilities on the same build. However having experienced how much hardier a companion is (Treek) when they have access to both sets at the same time I can't help but feel slightly justified that it would make issues balancing PvP even harder.

The truth is though that while AC swapping would allow a character to potentially be a Tank or a Healer they would not retain the full sets of abilities at the same time. I feel this is an important distinction. The choice is Tank OR Heal, definitely not Tank AND Heal.

Here is my thing.. Over all I am against the idea of AC swapping anytime you want.. I don't think that should be an option.. I do however understand that by the time you get to level 20 or so, you have made some investment into a character.. It was brought up in the beta, but nobody could agree on when or how often.. Some said allow an AC swap at level 20 and then again at level 30.. If you missed the one at level 30 and your character was level 31 you were stuck and permanently that AC.. But if you changed at 20, you could change back at 30.. If you didn't change at 20 then you couldn't change at 30.. Changing at 20 unlocked the option of changing back at 30.. I am actually ok with that..

Now the issue is, making sure people understand what permanent means after 30.. We can see how they understand it now.. That became the underlying issue.. If we tried a compromise, could people agree and not demand more later.. Or is it better to just leave well enough alone and not doing it at all?? It is a tough question and there is no answer..

There is an MMO (a failed one due to rushing it to release WAY too soon) called Vanguard in which the paladin class was a tank with access to healing capabilities. I was able to tank small group content while self healing and never would drop below 50% health. In large group content I could self heal everything but the bosses.

 

Needless to say, no one ever wanted to duel a paladin, which was the only form of PvP at release. I played for one month then stopped at the absurdity and the fact over half of the game world was broken and features not functioning in the game yet that were advertised as being in it.

In WOW there were two classes that could both tank and heal.. The Druid and Paladin.. I played a Paladin.. When it came to raiding and tanking, we (Paladins) were extremely OP because of that very reason.. We could heal ourselves and tank.. Druids couldn't do that because they had forms.. When you were a tank you were in bear form and you couldn't cant your heals.. You had to go to tree form to heal.. Which worked against the druid because tree form didn't have the life bonus and the armor bonus.. So changing to tree to heal yourself could also kill yourself.. Paladins though.. They had 3 heals in their tank spec.. None of them were very big, but all we needed was mana.. And tank spec didn't have many things that used large amounts of mana..

This game??

It is kind of nice not having that cross over from tank to heals on the same character.. I have a Shadow and a Sage.. I prefer tanking more, so my shadow gets more love.. Although, if these up coming changes gimp my Shadow?? I may start loving on my Sage.. But the heals I have currently on my tank aren't the sage heals.. I don't have those heals at all.. I have a gunslinger and I don't have any of the scoundrel heals.. To be honest, I like it separate like that much better..

In WOW there were two classes that could both tank and heal.. The Druid and Paladin.. I played a Paladin.. When it came to raiding and tanking, we (Paladins) were extremely OP because of that very reason.. We could heal ourselves and tank.. Druids couldn't do that because they had forms.. When you were a tank you were in bear form and you couldn't cant your heals.. You had to go to tree form to heal.. Which worked against the druid because tree form didn't have the life bonus and the armor bonus.. So changing to tree to heal yourself could also kill yourself.. Paladins though.. They had 3 heals in their tank spec.. None of them were very big, but all we needed was mana.. And tank spec didn't have many things that used large amounts of mana..

 

This game??

 

It is kind of nice not having that cross over from tank to heals on the same character.. I have a Shadow and a Sage.. I prefer tanking more, so my shadow gets more love.. Although, if these up coming changes gimp my Shadow?? I may start loving on my Sage.. But the heals I have currently on my tank aren't the sage heals.. I don't have those heals at all.. I have a gunslinger and I don't have any of the scoundrel heals.. To be honest, I like it separate like that much better..

Wow has 3 classes now that can swap to all 3 roles depending on spec. Paladins are not the OP class last I checked but that often fluctuates. I've never heard of a paladin seriously filling a healing role while tanking in a raid (ever)... but there's almost always been cases where tanks can pop off some healing and some dps can off-tank/off-heal and healers can do some damage. In this game my guardian or shadow gets off a lot of self-heal totals when tanking in pvp (shows up on wz boards). It is not even remotely game changing or relevant.

What was amazing to me was how fast it all came together.. My first time playing this game was a mess.. It was fun, but a mess.. Not all the quests worked.. It crashed a few times.. There was this stuff that looked like water but didn't act like water.. Some of the NPC's didn't know where the ground was.. Ghost images of the taxi speeders were being left everywhere.. The interface was clunky.. The lock button didn't work half the time.. It was funny.. With each build, I would just go and report the same bugs over and over again.. By the time we got to late Nov. everything had shaped up and cleaned up.. They had made a few beauty passes.. Water acted like water.. I still have a picture from the last day of the beta.. We had a dance party on Coruscant in front of the Senate tower.. By the time they closed the beta.. All the beta testers had version 1.0..

Sounds like fun, wish I could have joined in. Still I was there as soon as they opened the doors to the general public

Here is my thing.. Over all I am against the idea of AC swapping anytime you want.. I don't think that should be an option.. I do however understand that by the time you get to level 20 or so, you have made some investment into a character.. It was brought up in the beta, but nobody could agree on when or how often.. Some said allow an AC swap at level 20 and then again at level 30.. If you missed the one at level 30 and your character was level 31 you were stuck and permanently that AC.. But if you changed at 20, you could change back at 30.. If you didn't change at 20 then you couldn't change at 30.. Changing at 20 unlocked the option of changing back at 30.. I am actually ok with that..

Sounds unduly complicated, and really doesn't address the issue of end game flexibility. It may have been suited to a subscription only model where you want players to create more alts and thus invest more time in a character but in the hybrid model it is less attractive. If you were going to have a limit and a lock out to a permanent choice it only really makes sense to have it after a character has access to their final rotation.

Now the issue is, making sure people understand what permanent means after 30.. We can see how they understand it now.. That became the underlying issue.. If we tried a compromise, could people agree and not demand more later.. Or is it better to just leave well enough alone and not doing it at all?? It is a tough question and there is no answer..

I still have a hard time getting my head around the need for it to be a permanent choice at any stage. I can agree that it shouldn't be a choice made on a whim, hence why I think it should have an associated cartel coin cost, but limited number of uses and lock outs just add levels of complexity and data tracking that is unnecessary. I think it's an interesting question and one that ultimately reveals a schism in the player base and how they envision their character.

I would rather they had given us less stories but put more actual meaning into the characters choices. I've just finished my Dark Side playthrough of the Sith Warrior story after playing through Light Side first and felt rather nonplussed that the outcome is essentially the same If that's the case where there are actual LS/DS elements that can differ I can't think how the other class stories are going to compare.

You will get no arguments here.. I think the light side and dark side has been a complete waste of time on their part.. I wish they would have done much more with it.. Sadly for now it seems that it only has a minor impact on your gear and that is about it..

Now, I know the nature of an MMO with many players makes phasing for story outcome a bit of an issue. But more extensive use in quest changes similar to those encountered in Black Talon/ Esseles with the LS/DS choices wouldn't have gone amiss. Beyond one LS decision I made while on Korriban I can't really think of any choices I made that actually put me out of my way to complete.

They could have done more with the stories.. They are for the most part Single player affairs.. In fact I can't think of a single point in the Jedi, smuggler, and trooper stories that require another player.. So they very well could have made your LS/DS choice have an impact on out come.. It would have been nice..

That's a bit of a tangent to this discussion though.

Meh..

I guess the root of my desire to see AC swapping stems from my origins in tabletop gaming. I cut my teeth on games like Dungeons and Dragons with their class and level based mechanics and swiftly moved over to the likes of GURPS, Call of Cthulhu (Chaosium's Basic Roleplay System), and most recently All Flesh Must Be Eaten, which all share a freer style of character construction and improvement. For me this provides more scope for individual customisation and getting more long term enjoyment out of a character, rather than the more blinkered approach of class based games that can be fine for short term sessions but can become deadend/ boring over the longterm.

The benefit of having a set class with a preset set of skills is balance.. How would you make an Op that could allow anyone with any varying talents to succeed?? It would just seem to me that the freestyle approach isn't very structured and therefore hard to balance.. But then I have never played a game like that so.. I don't know.. It just seems to me that someone out there would find the worst build and couldn't do much of anything..

Had SWTOR had a less linear story design it may have been possible to have only two classes force sensitive and non-force sensitive and no forced separation into Empire/Republic. Instead the various in game factions such as Empire/ Republic/ Mandalorians/ SIS/ Jedi/ Sith/ etc... could have had their own progressions a character could have advanced through picking up abilities as they mad e their way up in the reputation unlocking new story elements and quests.

That boils down to one simple question... Do you want story or don't you?? This game was sold on the idea of story.. And I must say.. I tend to agree in many way.. I think the game lives or dies on story.. I enjoyed story when I was leveling.. I am starting to hating now that I am leveled..

But I realise in general game design terms if you are designing content for players you do not know or will not play with it is far easier to stick to a rigid levelling system that makes use of discreet sets of abilities in classes. It is far easier to balance and set the difficulty up for endgame content.

This game is what is really because one simple reason.. Bioware wanted to create a game that would compete with WOW.. There was no game on the market that could directly compete with WOW.. They might have done it had EA not get involved.. This game was loosely designed around the system that WOW uses.. Characters creation is a bit different.. Character organization is completely different.. But there are a lot of skills that look the same to similar skills in WOW.. That circle of healing that sages do in this game.. Looks exactly like the circle of healing that Priests do in WOW.. In fact Sage healers and Priest healers could almost be one in the same.. Then we have companions and WOW does not..

When browsing the forums many of the features I see asked for on a regular basis pertain to this sense of having more choice and being able to direct the character in a different direction to the story BW envisaged. Calls for faction swapping, using different weapons, ability to use opposite faction animations and of course AC swaps all fall into this loose category. I guess some players get attached to their character and want to be able to interact in the game world to a fuller extent. Not to mention the fact that in the lifespan of a character for most players a relatively small time is spent in story, much more is spent in endgame (I spent about 10% of my total game time levelling my character the rest has been spent in endgame doing dailies and flashpoints).

 

Giving players a few more tools to be able to explore this end game experience with increased flexibility fits more in keeping with the hybrid subscription model that tends to make a more direct comparison between time spent to improve character or money spent to improve character. And it still doesn't go any where near the dreaded pay-2-win line.

 

Unfortunately I can't see SWTOR having the sort of flexibility to allow faction changes, aside from the incongruity of jumping into a different class story there is the matter of data tracking and companions to consider, so from a technical standpoint this is highly unlikely. Different weapons and animations has been discussed and a recent comment by Damion Schubert points out the issue is more with blaster users and trying to reconcile the various attack animations, not undoable but time consuming.

 

At the end of the day though I don't think an AC swap option is likely to turn up by itself. If it is being worked on at all it is most probable to be bundled in with a future introduction of additional Advanced Classes. Afterall it places an added market need for the product, similar in many ways to the introduction of the ability to change species when the first new species was released.

Well.. Story is going to leave them pretty much restricted to the classes we have.. They have already said that cost to voice out and create the conversations for a new class will prohibit a new class from being added.. As for adding an AC?? I don't know if that one is going to happen either.. They really would have to add a new AC to all classes.. Which coding wise to me is more work that adding a new class.. You couldn't just add a new AC to consular and call it good.. You would have to add one to all of them.. Then the balance issues.. Which they have proven to be slow at fixing at times.. I am talking about the shadow and their spikiness here...

No.. I don't think faction change is ever going to happen.. This is one of those things where story is just going to kill it.. The companions are the biggest issue.. You can't exactly expect Elara Dorne to serve the empire again?? Kira Carsen is a child of the Imperor.. She fought all her life to break free of his hold.. She isn't going back.. What to do with them??

That is why I said, this game is going to both live and die by story... Story on the one hand is awesome and fun to play.. But like a book, you can only read it so many times.. I think this game is to restricted in a number of ways due to story.. And voice acting..

Ok.. Idea..

What if we added a new class that could either be both Imperial or Republic.. And it can be a faction change but doesn't have to be..

WOW had deathknights.. They started at level 50, there was a small starter area, it took you through about 8 levels then you dumped in to the normal story and sent to outland..

Something like that could be done here.. Either create a completely new character start at level 40 or something.. Play 10 levels and drop them into the normal story at Makeb.. Or, their current character can become this new class all companions are lost, level is reduced to 40, you choose what faction, play your 10 level and get new companions in that time.. Start out again at lvl 50 and Makeb??

Meh.. I need to stop driking coffee..

Wow has 3 classes now that can swap to all 3 roles depending on spec. Paladins are not the OP class last I checked but that often fluctuates. I've never heard of a paladin seriously filling a healing role while tanking in a raid (ever)... but there's almost always been cases where tanks can pop off some healing and some dps can off-tank/off-heal and healers can do some damage. In this game my guardian or shadow gets off a lot of self-heal totals when tanking in pvp (shows up on wz boards). It is not even remotely game changing or relevant.

Right the pandas.. I forgot about them.. I stopped playing during Cataclysm.. I couldn't stomach playing a panda bear.. Although.. I did go back over the summer.. I thought the pet battles was an interesting concept.. I also liked that all pets were available to all of your characters.. I doubt Bioware would do that..

In WOW there were two classes that could both tank and heal.. The Druid and Paladin.. I played a Paladin.. When it came to raiding and tanking, we (Paladins) were extremely OP because of that very reason.. We could heal ourselves and tank.. Druids couldn't do that because they had forms.. When you were a tank you were in bear form and you couldn't cant your heals.. You had to go to tree form to heal.. Which worked against the druid because tree form didn't have the life bonus and the armor bonus.. So changing to tree to heal yourself could also kill yourself.. Paladins though.. They had 3 heals in their tank spec.. None of them were very big, but all we needed was mana.. And tank spec didn't have many things that used large amounts of mana..

All I can remember from my time in WoW was the Paladin bubble and hearthstone. Not to mention their self heals still generated AOE threat.

This game??

 

It is kind of nice not having that cross over from tank to heals on the same character.. I have a Shadow and a Sage.. I prefer tanking more, so my shadow gets more love.. Although, if these up coming changes gimp my Shadow?? I may start loving on my Sage.. But the heals I have currently on my tank aren't the sage heals.. I don't have those heals at all.. I have a gunslinger and I don't have any of the scoundrel heals.. To be honest, I like it separate like that much better..

And the AC swap as currently proposed wouldn't change that. If you were playing your Consular as a Shadow they would not have access to the default healing abilities of the Sage, and if you swapped over to playing as a Sage then you wouldn't have access to the taunt abilities and tanking stance of the Shadow. It would keep the unique abilities of the ACs separate. The biggest hurdle in implementing such a feature would be keeping track of the advancement in various abilities when you switch between them. My limited knowledge of object oriented programming suggests that it wouldn't be an insurmountable hurdle, especially if the abilities already have unique identities.

Merc/PT are not plain old classes, they are advanced classes. There are 4 classes with 2 advanced classes in each faction. Your continued claim to the contrary will not change that.

I think he's hoping that if he pretends long enough, it'll become true.

Considering the fact that the devs have NEVER reversed their stance that the AC's are fundamentally DIFFERENT class designs and that they see the AC's as DIFFERENT classes, it is not me that is attempting to pretend anything.

As a wiser man than I once said "What is, is. Upon this bedrock principle, everything else is built."

Some posters who want to claim that the AC's are not different classes in an attempt to muddy the waters surrounding this hot topic have even let slip that they DO know that the AC's are different classes. Let's look at two quotes:

You act like they have massive differences...first off, they DON'T! Despite your best scare tactics, there are only like 3 or 4 skills my Vanguard uses vs. my Commando, the balance are shared skills. All Classes even share a skill tree, that's how minimal the differences are.

 

Then your opposition makes even less sense.

 

 

They are not fundamentally different classes. That will never be true no matter how many times you say it. Both ACs share the entire set of base class skills and as others have pointed out, one spec tree.

 

 

You keep bringing up "species change." That is entirely irrelevant to this discussion. But if it were relevant, the fact that they said it was likely to happen and eventually did happen lends credence to the notion that because they said AC change was likely to happen, it eventually will, since they have already implemented something they said was likely to happen.

 

For whatever reason, you simply do not like the idea of class change. OK for you. No need to control how others play.

The first poster wants to claim that all CLASSES share a skill tree, yet no classes share a skill tree. Basic classes or story lines share a skill tree, although the AC's share one similar but DIFFERENT skill tree. Since it is only the AC's that even be said to remotely share a skill tree, the first poster must realize that the AC's are different classes.

The second poster keeps saying that he is asking for the ability to swap AC's and not classes, yet he recognizes that this discussion revolves around class changes.

And completely missed the point of semantics I was trying to make

 

Just to clarify, I know that they are currently called Advanced Classes, I was suggesting that there would be less entrenched argument if the semantics fell on that second stage as a specialization and not one of advanced class.

And I am suggesting that if BW made it even clearer than they already have that AC's are different classes, there would be less entrenched argument.

Part of the trouble seems to be your reliance to define class by a different games definition. Within SWTOR it is clear that the term 'Class' refers to that initial choice that sets up the theme of your character while 'Advanced Class' is a separation based only on weapon choice and a few abilities (and at the time you make it you have no idea which avenue is more to your play style). In other MMOs Class is able to fold in Theme, Abilities and Weapons into the same parcel chosen from the outset.

I'm not arguing semantics, I'm saying that in a game that drives much of its content through story it makes far more sense to offer the option to allow a player to change a subset of skills (at a small cost of course) and remains no more unbalancing than the respecialisation options already in place.

 

 

The relevance is that it sets up an expectation in many players minds that the Advanced Class is more a step of specialisation rather than a definitive separation into a fundamentally different class. When Advanced Classes share so much and are only differentiated by a handful of abilities and weapon choice it is not irrelevant to a debate on the merits of allowing AC swapping.

Could you BE any more self contradictory? in the first paragraph, you want to claim that other games definition of classes "works", even when chosen at creation,because the different classes use different weapons and have different abilities. Yet, in the last paragraph, you admit that the AC's use different weapons and have different abilities. It would seem that you, as well, understand that the AC's are different classes, and simply want to "change the rules" because they do not mesh with your desire to see class changes implemented.

And I am suggesting that if BW made it even clearer than they already have that AC's are different classes, there would be less entrenched argument.

I agree. I think that it is the devs, the original dev staff to be exact, that created this problem in the first place as I see it. Since they have not, to my knowledge, come flat out and said "AC is your class", and instead danced around the issue IMO they have invited speculation....not to mention the poor design in the first place.

If it was me, I would have your AC chosen at character creation. There would be no choice at level 10...you would choose your class at creation, as it should be.

Then no one would be able to say, IMO, that AC is not a class. I believe the argument would lose any teeth it may have.

Sounds like fun, wish I could have joined in. Still I was there as soon as they opened the doors to the general public

 

 

Sounds unduly complicated, and really doesn't address the issue of end game flexibility. It may have been suited to a subscription only model where you want players to create more alts and thus invest more time in a character but in the hybrid model it is less attractive. If you were going to have a limit and a lock out to a permanent choice it only really makes sense to have it after a character has access to their final rotation.

Well.. Do we really need both AC swapping and Dual spec'ing for end game flexibility.. I never understood this concept that we should have 1 character that does it all.. The entire concept of specializing seems to be completely lost.. I can understand some character flexibility as long as it remains true to what the character is.. But running to the nearest phone booth to put your super suit on is to much in my opinion.. Where do we draw the line?? Are we going to let a Jedi Sentinel change into a trooper tank?? Or a gunslinger into a sage healer?? WOW never allowed you to change classes.. Your Warlock was forever a warlock.. You could change spec.. But you were still always a warlock.. In a lot of ways I think the integrity of our class needs to be protected.. Why should a shadow be allowed to become a sage or the other way around??

I still have a hard time getting my head around the need for it to be a permanent choice at any stage. I can agree that it shouldn't be a choice made on a whim, hence why I think it should have an associated cartel coin cost, but limited number of uses and lock outs just add levels of complexity and data tracking that is unnecessary. I think it's an interesting question and one that ultimately reveals a schism in the player base and how they envision their character.

To me the need for it to be permanent is because it is your characters identity.. It is who your character is at a very fundamental level.. I don't understand why people are so willing to change it.. Also what is it that some people have against a choice they make having a consequence?? Or simply living with the choices they make??

What challenge is there in a game if they have the character that can do it all change into everything they will ever need, can make them into whatever they want to be and if I don't like it I can change it whenever I want??

That just doesn't seem to be a game to me.. It just seems like someone that doesn't really want to play the game, so they will make a single character and it needs to do everything.. I think people like that have lost what an RPG is.. You played D&D, you know what I am talking about..

Or we can just call it 8 Classes each with 2 Advanced Classes each with 3 Specializations... you know like the game says

 

 

If you want it to die just ignore it and don't post. There hasn't been anything outstandingly new since the first few pages. The arguments still boil down to Pro-AC swap crowd 'we want added choice and customisation options that aren't limited to a very early level or time consuming level grind', Anti-AC swap crowd 'We don't want people to have more options'.

 

 

It's an opinion nothing more, nothing less. I can't say I agree with being so opposed to allowing players a little more choice and opening up some element of flexibility in end game content without necessarily imposing on them a hefty time sink.

 

 

I think the majority of Pro-AC want a button that allows them the option to swap AC but with a cost attached to it. We can maybe debate over the potential cost and what is considered a reasonable sum. Far too many costs suggested by the Anti-AC swap crowd are just so high you may as well not bother implementing the feature.

 

 

It's just a game, you know something you can sink a little disposable time into to divert your attention away from the hassles of real life. It doesn't need to be a time sink that starts to eat up more time than it needs to. Maybe, once upon a time when the game was purely subscription based there would have been a more coherent argument to restrict player AC choice more to make them play longer and extend their subscription. But know with the hybrid model it makes more sense to offer a time/cartel market option.

Life comes with a limited number of hours, you should make the most of them in the best way you can.

So, all those "other games" that do not allow class changes, are "restrictive" and require a "time sink" to play a new class are "wrong"?

It may be a game, but that does not mean that everything should be handed to those who choose to play. MMO's are built around things like "time sinks", grinds and players having to actually put a little effort into getting some of things they want.

Well, MajikMyst, I offer my apologies, the tone of your recent posts have been informed and insightful. I appreciate your contribution to the thread and hope this continues. Perhaps I misjudged you.

Of course you don't need my approval, but I offer my apologies at any rate.

All I can remember from my time in WoW was the Paladin bubble and hearthstone. Not to mention their self heals still generated AOE threat.

 

 

And the AC swap as currently proposed wouldn't change that. If you were playing your Consular as a Shadow they would not have access to the default healing abilities of the Sage, and if you swapped over to playing as a Sage then you wouldn't have access to the taunt abilities and tanking stance of the Shadow. It would keep the unique abilities of the ACs separate. The biggest hurdle in implementing such a feature would be keeping track of the advancement in various abilities when you switch between them. My limited knowledge of object oriented programming suggests that it wouldn't be an insurmountable hurdle, especially if the abilities already have unique identities.

Sorry.. The way you describe it just seems so.... I guess lost.. There is just no respect for your character.. I have both a sage and a shadow.. They are two separate characters..

I just don't think I could go for it if it was something that someone could do anytime they wanted.. There is little point to having a class or a spec at that point.. I mean why bother.. It is a fundamental change in the game..

Well, MajikMyst, I offer my apologies, the tone of your recent posts have been informed and insightful. I appreciate your contribution to the thread and hope this continues. Perhaps I misjudged you.

 

Of course you don't need my approval, but I offer my apologies at any rate.

Apology accepted.. Feel free to join us in the discussion..

No need to apologise, I actually appreciate the time you've taken to expand on the prerelease beta period. Unfortunately I didn't have a rig capable of running SWTOR at that time, nor have I ever been lucky enough to get into betas

As to the choice, I wish they had made the AC choice one made at first level. It's a lot clearer and doesn't leave any sense that you've made the wrong choice after you've grown attached to a character.

I see what you are saying, but I see no real difference between choosing a class at creation and choosing a class at level 10. If I choose the sith inquisitor story and then at level 10 choose assassin, but realize later that I would prefer to play a ranged DPS class over a melee DPS class, I have to reroll. The same goes for "that other game" if I choose to create a rogue, but later realize that I would prefer to play a ranged DPS class, such as hunter. I have to reroll, no matter how attached to that rogue I might be, and no matter what "unique and no longer obtainable items" he may have.

I also think it's important that a character doesn't have access to Tanking abilities and Healing abilities at the same time. I know I've mentioned this before, and I know other MMOs have allowed a mix of tanking and healing abilities on the same build. However having experienced how much hardier a companion is (Treek) when they have access to both sets at the same time I can't help but feel slightly justified that it would make issues balancing PvP even harder.

The truth is though that while AC swapping would allow a character to potentially be a Tank or a Healer they would not retain the full sets of abilities at the same time. I feel this is an important distinction. The choice is Tank OR Heal, definitely not Tank AND Heal.

I think it is important to recognize that the devs did not say that they do not want a single character to have access to tanking and healing skills AT THE SAME TIME. They said they do not want a single character to be able to tank AND heal. They do not want a single character to have access to tanking and healing skills, AT ANY TIME, not just at the same time.

You will get no arguments here.. I think the light side and dark side has been a complete waste of time on their part.. I wish they would have done much more with it.. Sadly for now it seems that it only has a minor impact on your gear and that is about it..

Aside from the obvious impact of Darkside corruption (which can be turned off ) I really like the Lightside only heavy boots that are on the Imperial LS vendor. Certainly no impact on endgame gear as relics and such have no restriction. Can't see them taking the time to develop the system further or incorporating the gray items.

I would have also liked to have seen less balanced use of light side/ Neutral/ Dark side choices in conversations, many of the Imperial faction quests should have been Dark Side/ Really Dark Side/ Really Really Really Dark side

They could have done more with the stories.. They are for the most part Single player affairs.. In fact I can't think of a single point in the Jedi, smuggler, and trooper stories that require another player.. So they very well could have made your LS/DS choice have an impact on out come.. It would have been nice..

 

 

A dark side Sentinel, instead of killing the emperor, giving the option of becoming an agent or spy for the empire.. Sill a republic player though..

 

I've played through all of the class stories now and they are all single player content. Some of the little phases you go into for class specific stuff are some of the nicer set pieces, but no matter what you do in them once you step out and that force field goes red you can't go back in again. This was perhaps one of the bigger disappointments I came across while playing.

The benefit of having a set class with a preset set of skills is balance.. How would you make an Op that could allow anyone with any varying talents to succeed?? It would just seem to me that the freestyle approach isn't very structured and therefore hard to balance.. But then I have never played a game like that so.. I don't know.. It just seems to me that someone out there would find the worst build and couldn't do much of anything..

You can make the OPs as difficult as you like but what you'd find is the community would quickly theory craft the best character builds and those cookie cutter designs would be expected to be used for Operations. In effect you would probably have less free choice to customise your character than you currently have.

In effect the discreet abilities the Advanced Classes have is the devs own premade cookie cutter designs that segregate the abilities into roughly balanced packages. This allows gives them the knowledge of what the potential is for a group at endgame content.

Back at the gaming table, the more open systems like GURPS work very well once you get to know your players and if you are planning a more intricate and realistic campaign. Restricted class based systems work far better if you have to cater to drop in players you've never gamed with before.

That boils down to one simple question... Do you want story or don't you?? This game was sold on the idea of story.. And I must say.. I tend to agree in many way.. I think the game lives or dies on story.. I enjoyed story when I was leveling.. I am starting to hating now that I am leveled..

I enjoyed most of the stories but don't feel the options the player has to meaningfully interact has lived up to the hype prerelease. Look at a previous release of Biowares like Dragonage: Origins and there are real choices that impact upon your progression, especially when it comes to companions (there are at least three I can think of that you may not even get to add to your group having them killed off beforehand).

I can't agree more that the game lives or dies on its story telling merits and that's why I would have preferred to see a slightly different way of engaging the player and drawing them into the experience. As it stands you get the story BW wanted to tell you and you have no say in the matter once you have selected that initial class.

You could have kept the same story elements and just broken them down into smaller chunks assigning them to the various smaller factions (Jedi/ Sith/ Empire/ Republic/ Mandalorians/ Imperial I.ntelligence/ etc...) at particular reputation levels. Many of the companions don't feel specific to the class story they are attached to but form a huge chunk of the class story. Extracting them out and placing them in as individuals with their own reputation/ affection rating and quests and affinity for certain other factions.

So you keep the core story elements but instead of being told how you will interact with them you get to put them together yourself and build your own story.

This game is what is really because one simple reason.. Bioware wanted to create a game that would compete with WOW.. There was no game on the market that could directly compete with WOW.. They might have done it had EA not get involved.. This game was loosely designed around the system that WOW uses.. Characters creation is a bit different.. Character organization is completely different.. But there are a lot of skills that look the same to similar skills in WOW.. That circle of healing that sages do in this game.. Looks exactly like the circle of healing that Priests do in WOW.. In fact Sage healers and Priest healers could almost be one in the same.. Then we have companions and WOW does not..

I don't think BW had the financial foundation to venture into the realms of MMO without the backing of a big publisher and publishers like to see a product. And the similarity is the same across many MMOs in terms of roles and abilities, it's a form of conservatism to alleviate the risk of a new product. The more expensive a project the less likely it will take the risks needed to truly put it ahead. Plus it was trying to lure in an existing market and so you need that level of familiarity. Unfortunately a large chunk of the gaming community is very savvy, has high expectations of any new product and can devour content at a truly frightening rate.

Well.. Story is going to leave them pretty much restricted to the classes we have.. They have already said that cost to voice out and create the conversations for a new class will prohibit a new class from being added.. As for adding an AC?? I don't know if that one is going to happen either.. They really would have to add a new AC to all classes.. Which coding wise to me is more work that adding a new class.. You couldn't just add a new AC to consular and call it good.. You would have to add one to all of them.. Then the balance issues.. Which they have proven to be slow at fixing at times.. I am talking about the shadow and their spikiness here...

I think the first natural focus of considering new ACs for the existing classes is to flesh out the missing roles that currently exist.

I can't really use Bounty Hunter to illustrate that as they have the core roles covered (Powertech - Tank, Melee DPS/ Mercenary - Healer, Ranged DPS) that said the Powertech's melee DPS role is heavily focused on gadgets like flamethrowers and rockets. It would be nice to have a melee DPS role that uses techblades and/or techstaves without relying so heavily on the gadgets. Balance issues aside the easiest option would be to mirror an existing melee DPS classes abilities from the force classes (easiest example would be the Marauder/Sentinel abilities)

Those classes that have missing roles (Sith Warrior/ Jedi Knight - no healer or ranged DPS role, Imperial Agent/ Smuggler - no Tank role) have more obvious needs for a new AC.

One advantage of this would be it sitting along side the existing system and could effectively be dropped in and then levelled through from first level to max.

No.. I don't think faction change is ever going to happen.. This is one of those things where story is just going to kill it.. The companions are the biggest issue.. You can't exactly expect Elara Dorne to serve the empire again?? Kira Carsen is a child of the Imperor.. She fought all her life to break free of his hold.. She isn't going back.. What to do with them??

I think the big hurdle of data tracking and the potential release of future content based on story will always keep Faction change out of the picture. However I have a vague hope that somewhere down the road the devs may allow for a more open exchange of companions between characters of the same legacy. Even if this is as basic as just a model/voice swap. I can't quite get over the fact that a darkside Sith Trueblood Warrior has to put up with so many alien scum on their vessel and would be far more comfortable with a crew of Andronikus, Talos, Malavai, Pierce and Lord Scourge. (Of course that would be an endgame feature requiring the unlocking of all companions to be considered). I still think it's a great shame the role-kits were removed from the companions, a far better option than the current forced roles.

That is why I said, this game is going to both live and die by story... Story on the one hand is awesome and fun to play.. But like a book, you can only read it so many times.. I think this game is to restricted in a number of ways due to story.. And voice acting..

It's one of the reasons I was asking for AC to be considered. Replayability of the different classes is pretty good, especially the first time round but by the time you get to the point of fleshing out your stable of characters to have one of each Advanced Class it gets a little stale. Unfortunately the price tag I'd attach to the AC swap would be too high to make it attractive for me to use for casual swapping... besides when I say the levelling is stale I still find it miles better than the competition.

I have a love hate relationship with the voice acting. I made a conscious decision to make sure the ACs would go male/ female so I didn't have to hear the same voice when levelling through the same story content. It alleviated some of the feeling of repetition. However, some of the voices just haven't suited my initial concept of the character and I've had to go back to the drawing board many time none more so that the Sith Warrior, Sith Inquisitor and Jedi Knight Males.

Ok.. Idea..

 

What if we added a new class that could either be both Imperial or Republic.. This class can only be obtained by using an existing character.. And it can be a faction change but doesn't have to be..

 

WOW had deathknights.. They started at level 50, there was a small starter area, it took you through about 8 levels then you dumped in to the normal story and sent to outland..

 

Something like that could be done here.. Either create a completely new character start at level 40 or something.. Play 10 levels and drop them into the normal story at Makeb.. Or, their current character can become this new class all companions are lost, level is reduced to 40, you choose what faction, play your 10 level and get new companions in that time.. Start out again at lvl 50 and Makeb??

I have a vague feeling that if we ever get truly alien species to play they would be introduced like this. It gets over the hurdle of older content but still faces the problem of the need to integrate them into future content. Running dailies through Makeb, CZ-198 and Oricon really wouldn't be an issue as a Trandoshan or Wookie for all the romance arcs that are involved or the conversation needed (most if not all the quests are given by terminals at this point).

Meh.. I need to stop driking coffee..

I can empathize with that... I have a good case of insomnia tonight so apologise for the long post, just hope it's coherent

Could you BE any more self contradictory? in the first paragraph, you want to claim that other games definition of classes "works", even when chosen at creation,because the different classes use different weapons and have different abilities. Yet, in the last paragraph, you admit that the AC's use different weapons and have different abilities. It would seem that you, as well, understand that the AC's are different classes, and simply want to "change the rules" because they do not mesh with your desire to see class changes implemented.

I'm simply trying to use SWTOR's own terms for Class, Advanced Class and Specialisation as shown on their holonet page and in game at both character creation and through out the game. While pointing out that games such as WoW don't have that additional tier of specialisation.

Can't exactly carry out a survey but I feel that those gamers that identify more with the story element will consider Advanced Class to be more like the first stage of specialisation in other games and open to an AC swap. While those gamers that focus on mechanics will focus on it being an Advanced CLASS and be less open to AC swapping. A viewpoint I've had from the outset of this discussion.

Well.. Do we really need both AC swapping and Dual spec'ing for end game flexibility.. I never understood this concept that we should have 1 character that does it all.. The entire concept of specializing seems to be completely lost.. I can understand some character flexibility as long as it remains true to what the character is.. But running to the nearest phone booth to put your super suit on is to much in my opinion.. Where do we draw the line?? Are we going to let a Jedi Sentinel change into a trooper tank?? Or a gunslinger into a sage healer?? WOW never allowed you to change classes.. Your Warlock was forever a warlock.. You could change spec.. But you were still always a warlock.. In a lot of ways I think the integrity of our class needs to be protected.. Why should a shadow be allowed to become a sage or the other way around??

I think that it's important for me to say that I am not arguing for 1 character that can do it all at the same time, but rather the flexibility to chose what role they will at a certain time and place (and not instantly and for free). I find the restriction of roles somewhat arbitrary and restrictive and directly opposed to allowing a player an element of choice.

I draw the line at Class swapping, but then Class to me in SWTOR is Bounty Hunter not Powertech or Mercenary.

To me the identity and integrity of the character is defined by the story and the companions, not by the more abstract and mechanical collection of abilities.

To me the need for it to be permanent is because it is your characters identity.. It is who your character is at a very fundamental level.. I don't understand why people are so willing to change it.. Also what is it that some people have against a choice they make having a consequence?? Or simply living with the choices they make??

Again it's the point at which you identify with the character, for me that is at the Bounty Hunter level. This defines the story and all of the intrinsic elements of what the characters identity is. The thought of swapping ACs to me is no different than choosing to play badminton instead of tennis, I need a different bat and different rules but it's still me playing.

What challenge is there in a game if they have the character that can do it all change into everything they will ever need, can make them into whatever they want to be and if I don't like it I can change it whenever I want??

This is a point constantly argued on the thought that if an AC swap option is put in it will be free. I have no reason to believe that would be the case. If you want to pay £5 (approx. 1,000 cartel coins a price I see as convenient and affordable for the occasional use) that often you have far more disposable income than most.

That just doesn't seem to be a game to me.. It just seems like someone that doesn't really want to play the game, so they will make a single character and it needs to do everything.. I think people like that have lost what an RPG is.. You played D&D, you know what I am talking about..

Again the important point is that AC swapping shouldn't allow a character to do everything at once. There should be a financial cost to the decision and that would be enough to make it a considered choice rather than a whim.

I played D&D and got bored with it, it's a very limited system, feels artificial and very definitely just a Game.

Sorry.. The way you describe it just seems so.... I guess lost.. There is just no respect for your character.. I have both a sage and a shadow.. They are two separate characters..

I have plenty of respect for my character, I just don't see why that identity is so fixated on whether they happen to be using one gun or two, or standing toe to toe or firing at a distance.

For me the characters identity originates in the story and the choices they make (light/dark) not the tools they use to get the task done.

I just don't think I could go for it if it was something that someone could do anytime they wanted.. There is little point to having a class or a spec at that point.. I mean why bother.. It is a fundamental change in the game..

I personally have never proposed for it to be free. I initially suggested the need to travel to a terminal on fleet or your ship to do it but feel for ease of use it would be more likely to be implemented as a Cartel Market consumable item.

Advanced Classes and Specialisations don't disappear, in fact there is no change to them you just have an additional avenue to explore should you so desire.

Those gamers with plenty of time and who enjoy playing the game for the levelling experience would still churn out plenty of alts (I currently have 4 bounty hunters) just because they like different looks and play styles.

I think it is important to recognize that the devs did not say that they do not want a single character to have access to tanking and healing skills AT THE SAME TIME. They said they do not want a single character to be able to tank AND heal. They do not want a single character to have access to tanking and healing skills, AT ANY TIME, not just at the same time.

Do you have an actual quote for that?