Jump to content

SWTOR should've been a RPG


FeelFlow

Recommended Posts

I would call Mass Effect more of a action game with some story elements, DA:O sucked IMO but thats only my opinion. For me it was just a butchered watered down stupidier abomination version of great classics such as Planescape Torment, Baldurs Gate series and Icewind Dale series. Mass Effect always also for me sucked in the story compartment and I'm glad that SWTOR though cliché is not as badly cliché as the Mass Effect games.

 

Back to the topic I guess that you what you meant was that the game should be a single player RPG because TOR is a RPG a MMORPG. Personally I honestly thing that the single player RPG thing is starting to kinda die out, just look at both Dragon Age and Mass Effect they are action games and there is very little RPG in them.

Old RPGs was about reading or listening and exploring way more then fightning, acutally fighting was very often a very small portion of the games. From a modern perspective I think they managed to get a good combination of both in TOR.

 

Lack in MMORPG department? What features do you think that TOR lacks? are you comparing only to WoW because WoW is not the standard of MMORPGs although it has it success much because it combined all good features from games like UO, EQ, Meridian etc and built upon them doesn't magically make WoW everyones favorite game.

So what features do you think is lacking here? WoWs features as in you want a WoW in space or do you mean other features like from EvE or Asian styled MMORPGs or old school MMORPG features?

 

Share your ideas

 

Saying "It lacks as a MMORPG" tells us nothing because there is no default MMORPG style. There are those that were built upon old D&D paper and pen styled games and there are niché MMORPGS and there are superhero MMORPGS and there are sci-fi MMORPGS and so on and so on.

 

You have to be a little more specific on what you think TOR is lacking. Saying that it lacks new content is one thing but just randomly saying that "it lacks" tells us nothing. ATM the endgame in TOR is the exactly same as it is in WoW; a gear grind.

 

So what features do you want?

 

Agree with a lot of what you said.

 

Every MMO and RPG is emulating DnD. Every game mechanic in the game comes directly from DnD. All of the background lore is straight up high-fantasy. Never could fathom the "it's not elves and dwarves!" argument. Yes it is all elves and dwarves. The differences are entirely cosmetic. TOR could be turned into a standard fantasy RPG/MMO without changing anything except the graphics.

 

Bioware has always tried to create their own version of RPG's, with varying degrees of success IMO. Dragon Age: Origins was a good adventure with a horrible hybrid combat system. It was a real time action game trying to emulate a turn based tactical game. They can never make up their minds if they are making console games for the PC or PC games for the consoles and the compromises sometimes totally ruin the attempt.

 

What MMO feature does TOR lack?

- Mutiplayer! First MMO in history to reward solo over group play. Solo play is faster. The minor bonuses one gets from grouping (slightly higher xps and slightly better trash loot) do not make up for the clumsiness of the ways quests are dealt with in groups. If you aren't on exactly the same steps, you are playing solo within a group.

- Immersion. The worlds are lifeless and sterile. They always feel like a video game and never like a world.

- Community. The result of having neither immersive worlds nor compelling group content.

- Non-persistent worlds. Huh? Both factions can go to the same planets but they are frozen in time versions different from each other? What sense does that make in an MMO?

- Soul. They traded that for the CM.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 89
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

I tend to agree. I see so much potential for fleshing out story, companion stories, quests' background stories, class stories... etc. that will forever be unused and it makes me sad. A lot of story elements feel unfinished, rushed and just ending unexpectedly before anything is really revealed resp. resolved. I imagine a single player game would have had more room for a complex, consistent, fleshed out story and also would have provided better focus on story during development.

 

That's because breadth and depth have an antagonistic relationship, that is to say the broader the content the less time they can spend on what they do have. So having 8 different player stories with 5 companions each means that each one barely has enough depth. If they had trimmed it down to one story like a proper RPG with one set of companions it would have been another classic Bioware title.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

LOL ya because player housing was totally the reason the game was shut down. Fail post is fail.

This game won't make it as long as galaxies lasted. Fact.

 

Word, I subscribed to SWG for 5 years. It's been one year of TOR and I'm already thinking about dropping it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's because breadth and depth have an antagonistic relationship, that is to say the broader the content the less time they can spend on what they do have. So having 8 different player stories with 5 companions each means that each one barely has enough depth. If they had trimmed it down to one story like a proper RPG with one set of companions it would have been another classic Bioware title.

 

Agreed. Sadly, I think that BW bit off more than they could chew with SWTOR. I don't think that anyone had ever tried to produce a project like this with so much voice-work and cut-scenes. I'll bet that so much had to be discarded because of that.

 

And totally agree with you re. what you said about companions. In my OP, I reckon that the 'twist' that they could've bought to it would be to let you play from the Sith side (i.e. to see how an epic story line is experienced from both sides) but with much of what we have now as player classes as your companions instead i.e.:

 

One of your characters is an Imperial Agent/Trooper. If you choose, help them on their missions - essentially the class stories that we have now i.e. these stories would form the sub-quests of the game no 'collect/kill x of y things for no reason whatsoever really' quests in this imaginary RPG!.

 

And like KOTOR, you could help them as companions or switch to them as your primary character for these missions.

 

Finally, since it's a RPG the plotlines of your companions missions could intertwine around your main player story with both influencing each other.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Word, I subscribed to SWG for 5 years. It's been one year of TOR and I'm already thinking about dropping it.

 

I'm in the exact same boat as you. It's rather interesting that, for as many mistakes as were made with swg, people kept playing it. For me, the space game had a lot to do with that. When I would get bored with the ground game, I'd go to space, and vice versa. It was like two games in one. Space in this game is a joke in comparison.

Edited by DethWraith
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm in the exact same boat as you. It's rather interesting that, for as many mistakes as were made with swg, people kept playing it. For me, the space game had a lot to do with that. When I would get bored with the ground game, I'd go to space, and vice versa. It was like two games in one. Space in this game is a joke in comparison.

 

Sorry it was 4 years. Early 2005 to 2009 or so.

 

Yeah JTL was part of it but also just the sandbox elements that gave that MMO it's staying power like the Crafting and the Entertainer professions, Housing, Decorations, Badges, Bestiary, open world PvP and so on. Those are all elements that TOR is lacking. SWTOR is more "cinematic" than "virtual reality", which is cool, but it doesn't have the same longevity. You're not living in the SW universe, it's more like you're playing along with a movie that's set in the SW universe. What do you do when the movie ends? Well, you leave the theater of course.

Edited by MorgonKara
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I sympathize, but you guys are living in a fantasy. KOTOR was an amazing game that did not make a lot of money.

 

The problem is RPGs are niche..they always will be.

 

It makes sense to say you want another KOTOR game. I would agree.

 

It however makes zero sense to say "if they put the money they poured into TOR int KOTOR3 instead it would have been better!" Sure, it would have been better. They would also not have made their money back. As in never. Thus, it was never even a possibility that they would do such a thing and makes it completely irrelevant in a serious discussion of what they should have done instead.

 

Bioware has amassed a fan culture... That's about it. Their games don't sell amazingly otherwise.

 

And yes I agree with the guy above me. This game really needs some sandbox.

Edited by maxetius
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I sympathize, but you guys are living in a fantasy. KOTOR was an amazing game that did not make a lot of money.

 

The problem is RPGs are niche..they always will be.

 

It makes sense to say you want another KOTOR game. I would agree.

 

It however makes zero sense to say "if they put the money they poured into TOR int KOTOR3 instead it would have been better!" Sure, it would have been better. They would also not have made their money back. As in never. Thus, it was never even a possibility that they would do such a thing and makes it completely irrelevant in a serious discussion of what they should have done instead.

 

Bioware has amassed a fan culture... That's about it. Their games don't sell amazingly otherwise.

 

And yes I agree with the guy above me. This game really needs some sandbox.

 

No one is saying they should have put the same amount of money into KotoR 3. They wouldn't have needed even a fraction of that amount. By the way Dragon Age: Origins sold 3.8 million copies. Bioware games are not niche. They may not be as big as some of the really big gaming franchises, but they are up there. Niche is something like Atlus, with SMT games selling like a few hundred thousand copies. While they're excellent games, those are niche.

 

The last thing this game needs is sandbox. What was needed was for Bioware to remian RPG developers and to continue to make critically acclaimed and commercially successful games. But since this game is already made I'm not sure where they go from here. Most likely it'll be somewhere I'm not interested, as I'm just here for the story.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No one is saying they should have put the same amount of money into KotoR 3. They wouldn't have needed even a fraction of that amount. By the way Dragon Age: Origins sold 3.8 million copies. Bioware games are not niche. They may not be as big as some of the really big gaming franchises, but they are up there. Niche is something like Atlus, with SMT games selling like a few hundred thousand copies. While they're excellent games, those are niche.

 

The last thing this game needs is sandbox. What was needed was for Bioware to remian RPG developers and to continue to make critically acclaimed and commercially successful games. But since this game is already made I'm not sure where they go from here. Most likely it'll be somewhere I'm not interested, as I'm just here for the story.

 

OP here, again. Yes, that's what I was assuming with the OP that I made i.e. that you'd have a KOTOR3 roughly on the scale of DA:O but slightly bigger (because of the success of KOTOR and hey: it's Star Wars!).

 

So planets that are probably half of the size of the ones that we have now i.e. probably more like Tython. They wouldn't need to be massive as they'd serve as fairly linear environments for a scripted story.

 

What I mean by this, is instead of finding yourself dealing with the situation (I won't reveal any spoilers) on Belsavis where in typical MMO fashion, you can go fly your speeder right to the 'end' of the planet if you like, I'm imagining a scenario where you would deal with the situation in a linear story-driven way and lock down each area as you play through the planet etc. etc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

OP here, again. Yes, that's what I was assuming with the OP that I made i.e. that you'd have a KOTOR3 roughly on the scale of DA:O but slightly bigger (because of the success of KOTOR and hey: it's Star Wars!).

 

So planets that are probably half of the size of the ones that we have now i.e. probably more like Tython. They wouldn't need to be massive as they'd serve as fairly linear environments for a scripted story.

 

What I mean by this, is instead of finding yourself dealing with the situation (I won't reveal any spoilers) on Belsavis where in typical MMO fashion, you can go fly your speeder right to the 'end' of the planet if you like, I'm imagining a scenario where you would deal with the situation in a linear story-driven way and lock down each area as you play through the planet etc. etc.

 

Ya, that's probably more so what it would be like. They could give you the option of backtracking though, the enemies wouldn't be respawned but you could still walk back to the towns to buy stuff. Like in KotOR and DA:O, you can still revisit some maps, they're just empty.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thats all very interesting, but whats done is done.

 

 

Nothing we can do about it. Deal with it.

 

It's still nice to think about. Last I heard Obsidian was interested in getting a crack at making a KotOR 3. I know I'd enjoy whatever they could come up with.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think this thread, when taken holistically, is a showcase of why SWTOR is in dire straits at the moment. They've attracted 3 disparate and often conflicting groups of players which they have not managed to please.

 

1. The SWG Crowd - These are the people who loved their sandbox. They want mostly social content. This is the people posting for Pazaak, Sabaac, pod and swoop races, player housing, open space combat, etc. Unfortunately for them, this game was never intended to be a sandbox nor is it the successor to SWG.

 

2. The KOTOR Crowd - These are the people clamoring for decisions that effect the galaxy. They want persistent, vibrant worlds to explore, more freedom with their companions and branching rather than linear stories. Often, they care little for end game content, opting to level alts rather than take part in the FP/Op gear grind. As someone else pointed out, SWTOR has amazing story content for an MMO, yet falls short of a true RPG. Once these guys get bored with that, they're gone.

 

3. The MMO Crowd - These people are all about the end game. They want balanced PvP. They want fun yet challenging Ops released quickly. A lot of them will race through 1-50 by spacebarring conversations and ignoring exploration. They lost a lot of credibility with this group because they launched without, and in some cases still do not have, important QoL features such as group finder, customizable UI, server transfers, etc. Add to that the volume of unresolved bugs, and a rather bland and easy initial tier of Ops and it's easy to see why a lot of this crowd left for other games.

 

The only group I see EA even trying with are the MMOers. They've largely ignored the SWG folks. They've ticked off a lot of the KOTOR fans with the recent announcement that there is no class story or companion development with Makeb. The end game, however, is slowly but steadily improving. We've gotten a group finder and customizable UI. Server transfers are "a top priority" . They've created 2 new WZs and announced a redesign of Ilum PvP. They've added 2 FPs that are a step up in difficulty from the original HMs. While EV and KP were easy and boring, EC offered more of a challenge, and TFB has some fun, complex fights.

 

There is still a lot to be done if this is their intended direction. There's bugs reported in beta that are still unresolved and more pouring in with each patch. Not having an option to copy our characters over to the PTS, I would imagine, means that these patches are under-tested and result in so many uncaught bugs. Class balance is woefully lacking. We still do not have server transfers. Itemization and set bonuses on tier gear are largely atrocious.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

...snip...

 

It seems you've pretty much hit the nail right on the head. It's disappointing to see a Bioware-made sequel to KotOR going in that direction but I suppose that's life. Once I've finished experiencing the stories with my friends I'll likely move on to other RPGs. I'm hoping that Dragon Age 3 will be promising, but that remains to be seen.

 

I do hope that while I'm here they don't get to class balance. I hate to see characters weakened because of balance concerns in a mode I don't play. Like weakening powers in singleplayer so they can just put them as is in multiplayer.

Edited by Revanchis
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think this thread, when taken holistically, is a showcase of why SWTOR is in dire straits at the moment. They've attracted 3 disparate and often conflicting groups of players which they have not managed to please.

 

1. The SWG Crowd - These are the people who loved their sandbox. They want mostly social content. This is the people posting for Pazaak, Sabaac, pod and swoop races, player housing, open space combat, etc. Unfortunately for them, this game was never intended to be a sandbox nor is it the successor to SWG.

 

2. The KOTOR Crowd - These are the people clamoring for decisions that effect the galaxy. They want persistent, vibrant worlds to explore, more freedom with their companions and branching rather than linear stories. Often, they care little for end game content, opting to level alts rather than take part in the FP/Op gear grind. As someone else pointed out, SWTOR has amazing story content for an MMO, yet falls short of a true RPG. Once these guys get bored with that, they're gone.

 

3. The MMO Crowd - These people are all about the end game. They want balanced PvP. They want fun yet challenging Ops released quickly. A lot of them will race through 1-50 by spacebarring conversations and ignoring exploration. They lost a lot of credibility with this group because they launched without, and in some cases still do not have, important QoL features such as group finder, customizable UI, server transfers, etc. Add to that the volume of unresolved bugs, and a rather bland and easy initial tier of Ops and it's easy to see why a lot of this crowd left for other games.

 

The only group I see EA even trying with are the MMOers. They've largely ignored the SWG folks. They've ticked off a lot of the KOTOR fans with the recent announcement that there is no class story or companion development with Makeb. The end game, however, is slowly but steadily improving. We've gotten a group finder and customizable UI. Server transfers are "a top priority" . They've created 2 new WZs and announced a redesign of Ilum PvP. They've added 2 FPs that are a step up in difficulty from the original HMs. While EV and KP were easy and boring, EC offered more of a challenge, and TFB has some fun, complex fights.

 

There is still a lot to be done if this is their intended direction. There's bugs reported in beta that are still unresolved and more pouring in with each patch. Not having an option to copy our characters over to the PTS, I would imagine, means that these patches are under-tested and result in so many uncaught bugs. Class balance is woefully lacking. We still do not have server transfers. Itemization and set bonuses on tier gear are largely atrocious.

 

OP here, great post - thanks. I think that you've really nailed it on the head. BW thought that they could evolve MMOs and they were very brave to try - but sadly they seem to have ended up with a product that didn't satisfy any of the target markets who would be interested in the game (I'm playing the game as I like the story and SW - not because I think it's an amazing MMO - much of it reminds me of WoW Wrath of the Lich King in 2009, or so).

 

Onwards and upwards re. the new xpac and I'm hoping that there are some good stories there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here is the list of every MMO I've played:

 

Ultima Online

Everquest

Anarchy Online

Everquest 2

World of Warcraft

Pirates of the Burning Sea

EVE Online

Star Wars Galaxies

Lord of the Rings Online

Runes of Magic

Guild Wars

SWTOR

 

I've never made it to end game in ANY of these MMO's because I lost my patience quickly and got tired of the grind. I mastered a bunch of professions in Star Wars Galaxies, but that didn't have an end-game really, so I'm not counting that.

 

SWTOR is the ONLY MMO I've actually stuck with until I reached end game, and I have the story-driven class quests to thank for that, because it held my attention until the very end, so massive kudos to Bioware.

 

I think SWTOR will be successful for gamers, like me, who don't particularly enjoy MMO's or who have never played one before.

Edited by xCyberpunkx
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here is the list of every MMO I've played:

 

Ultima Online

Everquest

Anarchy Online

Everquest 2

World of Warcraft

Pirates of the Burning Sea

EVE Online

Star Wars Galaxies

Lord of the Rings Online

Runes of Magic

Guild Wars

SWTOR

 

I've never made it to end game in ANY of these MMO's because I lost my patience quickly and got tired of the grind. I mastered a bunch of professions in Star Wars Galaxies, but that didn't have an end-game really, so I'm not counting that.

 

SWTOR is the ONLY MMO I've actually stuck with until I reached end game, and I have the story-driven class quests to thank for that, because it held my attention until the very end, so massive kudos to Bioware.

 

I think SWTOR will be successful for gamers, like me, who don't particularly enjoy MMO's or who have never played one before.

 

Ya, but if they only focus on the usual endgame grinding stuff they aren't going to keep those types of gamers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ya, but if they only focus on the usual endgame grinding stuff they aren't going to keep those types of gamers.

 

Allow me to play devil's advocate for a minute and step into the shoes of a businessman at EA. SWTOR has attracted, for various reasons, the 3 distinct groups I identified in my last post. The development budget, I think we can all assume at this point, is not high enough to go after all 3 groups and probably not even 2 of them. The question now becomes "Which group of players do we pursue in order to create a sustainable income and stable subscription numbers at minimal cost?" So, with that in mind, I will try to look at all 3 groups in terms of longevity of subscription and cost to develop content aimed at them.

 

SWG Crowd

Cost - Initially, it would be quite high. The game has few to none of of the requisite features. Once these are in place, however, the cost to maintain becomes quite low.

Benefit - High. they'll keep on replaying minigames and grind out decorations for houses so long as there's enough like-minded players around.

 

KOTOR Crowd

Cost - High. Story content is by far the most expensive aspect of this game and takes the longest to develop.

Benefit - Low. The replayability just isn't there when compared to social or MMO content. After you go through it once or twice, that's it. These guys are not likely to stick around for repeatable content.

 

MMO Crowd

Cost - Moderate. These guys need frequent updates of decent cost. It's cheaper and faster to develop than story content, but more expensive over the long haul than social content.

Benefit - High. Like the SWG Crowd, these guys will stick around and continue to subscribe for repeatable content provided it is fun and challenging.

 

So, to answer our question, which group of players do we pursue in order to create a sustainable income and stable subscription numbers at minimal cost? For starters, we can rule out the KOTOR crowd. An MMO just does not lend itself to this play style, hence the high cost and low benefit. Also, this game does not really have the investment capital to develop social content right now. That leaves the MMO guys. There's no initial investment required and has the potential for high returns. This is really just the decision that makes the most business sense at the moment.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Allow me to play devil's advocate for a minute and step into the shoes of a businessman at EA. SWTOR has attracted, for various reasons, the 3 distinct groups I identified in my last post. The development budget, I think we can all assume at this point, is not high enough to go after all 3 groups and probably not even 2 of them. The question now becomes "Which group of players do we pursue in order to create a sustainable income and stable subscription numbers at minimal cost?" So, with that in mind, I will try to look at all 3 groups in terms of longevity of subscription and cost to develop content aimed at them.

 

SWG Crowd

Cost - Initially, it would be quite high. The game has few to none of of the requisite features. Once these are in place, however, the cost to maintain becomes quite low.

Benefit - High. they'll keep on replaying minigames and grind out decorations for houses so long as there's enough like-minded players around.

 

KOTOR Crowd

Cost - High. Story content is by far the most expensive aspect of this game and takes the longest to develop.

Benefit - Low. The replayability just isn't there when compared to social or MMO content. After you go through it once or twice, that's it. These guys are not likely to stick around for repeatable content.

 

MMO Crowd

Cost - Moderate. These guys need frequent updates of decent cost. It's cheaper and faster to develop than story content, but more expensive over the long haul than social content.

Benefit - High. Like the SWG Crowd, these guys will stick around and continue to subscribe for repeatable content provided it is fun and challenging.

 

So, to answer our question, which group of players do we pursue in order to create a sustainable income and stable subscription numbers at minimal cost? For starters, we can rule out the KOTOR crowd. An MMO just does not lend itself to this play style, hence the high cost and low benefit. Also, this game does not really have the investment capital to develop social content right now. That leaves the MMO guys. There's no initial investment required and has the potential for high returns. This is really just the decision that makes the most business sense at the moment.

 

Agree with your analysis :) it'll be MMO content all the way now with story content only because the rest of the game has it i.e. releasing content without story would seem weird.

 

I don't think we'll ever see any more class stories - for the reasons mentioned - and even then, I'm betting that the new content will have mostly alien language (ie subtitled) dialogue with the 'stock responses' from us.

 

I wish in a parallel universe we had got to see the KOTOR 3 RPG though. Oh well!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Agree with your analysis :) it'll be MMO content all the way now with story content only because the rest of the game has it i.e. releasing content without story would seem weird.

 

I don't think we'll ever see any more class stories - for the reasons mentioned - and even then, I'm betting that the new content will have mostly alien language (ie subtitled) dialogue with the 'stock responses' from us.

 

I wish in a parallel universe we had got to see the KOTOR 3 RPG though. Oh well!

 

It's a sad truth, I suppose. Perhaps in another 5 years or so we may see a KotOR 3, or maybe in a decade. I just hope they do add some more class stories for any expansions they announce. I'm sure a lot of the KotOR crowd will come back for any expansion packs. It'll be like the old RPG expansion packs, like Awakenings or Throne of Baal.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's a sad truth, I suppose. Perhaps in another 5 years or so we may see a KotOR 3, or maybe in a decade. I just hope they do add some more class stories for any expansions they announce. I'm sure a lot of the KotOR crowd will come back for any expansion packs. It'll be like the old RPG expansion packs, like Awakenings or Throne of Baal.

 

I'm optomistic in that I think that tablets will be the sort of gaming device where RPGs will be more at home. And there is predicted to be quite a lot of these sold.

 

As for the old Republic as imagined by BW. Well this is the last we will here from them (this game) I should think. So let's enjoy what we have. Whilst imagining what KOTOR 3 could've been, of course!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm optomistic in that I think that tablets will be the sort of gaming device where RPGs will be more at home. And there is predicted to be quite a lot of these sold.

 

As for the old Republic as imagined by BW. Well this is the last we will here from them (this game) I should think. So let's enjoy what we have. Whilst imagining what KOTOR 3 could've been, of course!

 

I have no doubt that RPGs will continue to stand strong on the PC and consoles. I don't think tablets are well suited to RPGs. Obsidian is actually currently in the process of making an RPG that harkens back to the Infinity Engine era of PC-RPGs. Once I'm done with this game I probably won't buy anything further from Bioware Austin, they are not RPG developers. I'm still looking forward to Bioware Edmonton's next game.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


×
×
  • Create New...