Vankris Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 I understand the new operation is coming next month, i also understand you can't have a solid release date, you certainly are polishing the last detail right now. I do think 4 bosses is too short, ideally you'd have around 8-10 boss. The tier one (EV and KP) did have that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Holmes Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 Something among 4 bosses and 4 mini bosses sounds okay to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 I understand the new operation is coming next month, i also understand you can't have a solid release date, you certainly are polishing the last detail right now. I do think 4 bosses is too short, ideally you'd have around 8-10 boss. The tier one (EV and KP) did have that. EV and KP had 4 each, so unless thats what your saying and ive misunderstood you, your wrong. While i do think 8 bosses would be cool, i for one know that i could not do 8-10 bosses in one night, and having to clear 2 nights a week for a raid... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alifaraaz Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 I ugess we'll find out soon enough when it its PTS, which Im guessing will be end of this month Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Typeslice Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 EV and KP had 4 each, so unless thats what your saying and ive misunderstood you, your wrong. While i do think 8 bosses would be cool, i for one know that i could not do 8-10 bosses in one night, and having to clear 2 nights a week for a raid... EV and KP had 5 each; so actually, you're wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Typeslice Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 and having to clear 2 nights a week for a raid... And sadly, statements like this are why we don't get more, and why people complain about no content after a month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vankris Posted August 19, 2012 Author Share Posted August 19, 2012 (edited) EV and KP had 4 each, so unless thats what your saying and ive misunderstood you, your wrong. technically speaking, both EV and KP have 10 encounter rewarding loot and having codex entry, thus one may say 10 boss. But i agree with you, there is only 3 real boss in EV The pylon encounter, is not a boss, you just kill (easy) trash while cycling through symbol to find the combination, the first time i did, i totally expected a boss coming out once we opened the vault, but nothing. The next encounter is just one on ones, no raid coordination, no strat, no team work. Those are no boss in my book, but they are indeed encounter rewarding boss loot. That is why i said 8-10 boss, depending how you look at it. While i do think 8 bosses would be cool, i for one know that i could not do 8-10 bosses in one night, and having to clear 2 nights a week for a raid... i don't agree, once you have mastered the encounter and harvest a few pieces of loot, there is no doubt in my mind that a competent raid group can clear it in a night. Icecrown citadel had 12 bosses, and clearing in one evening in a pug group was largely doable, once server population got familiarized with the various encounter. As for hard and nightmare mode, it's another story, but i'll take the wild guess that player willing to progress in hard and nightmare mode, of the current content, does raid more than once a week. Edited August 19, 2012 by Vankris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elear Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 (edited) Better to make 2 ops with 5 bosses than 1 with 10. Amount of content is same, and you don't have to worry about that one guy that can't raid on second day and can't find group to fit his 6/10 lockout. And Terror is in similar(as in, not the same, similar) position to Denova and KP was to EV. With EC Nim targeted after Terror, and no knowledge if it'll come with Nightmare mode already in, or what gear will drop at what mode, we can assume those two ops are intended as pair just like EV/KP are. Same gear look only supports this idea. Edited August 19, 2012 by Elear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alifaraaz Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 (edited) Better to make 2 ops with 5 bosses than 1 with 10. Amount of content is same, and you don't have to worry about that one guy that can't raid on second day and can't find group to fit his 6/10 lockout. And Terror is in similar(as in, not the same, similar) position to Denova and KP was to EV. With EC Nim targeted after Terror, and no knowledge if it'll come with Nightmare mode already in, or what gear will drop at what mode, we can assume those two ops are intended as pair just like EV/KP are. Same gear look only supports this idea. Nah they said it will be a step up in gear reward too. i.e. Storymode Terror = Campaign HM Terror = New Set (2.2) Nightmare EC = New Set (2.2) Nightmare Terror = Dunno, but probably the next set after that (2.3) It wont be launching with Nightmare, just like EC. EC Nightmare will come AFTER Terror but hopefully soon after, and is intended as a 'Challenge' and an alternate source for the new set of gear. Edit: I reckon the reason they are no longer making 2 'pairs' of raids like EV and KP (both Tier 1, dropping Columi in Story and Rakata in HM) is because it clearly takes them longer to create content than they claimed. And for that reason it just wouldnt make sense to release the next raid 4+ Months after Denova, and have it drop exactly the same loot. Edited August 19, 2012 by alifaraaz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WickedTexan Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 I'm a fan of being able to clear an instance in one night. 4-5 hours is a good max. More bosses is fine with me, as long as trash is reduced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karasuko Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 I'm a fan of being able to clear an instance in one night. 4-5 hours is a good max. More bosses is fine with me, as long as trash is reduced. Not sniping at you here but don't you find group concentration goes down after 3 hours? My guild raids 2 hours a night 2 nigths a week with part of a night for NP with another guild. This works out well for us but I don't think my guildies will mind doing 5 bosses on night A and 5 bosses on night B. My vote is for more intresting bosses. 5 amazing fights would be better than 7-8 mediocre ones.That being said the devs are being paid to develop content so I won't say no to 10 amazing boss encounters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STARWOLFSWE Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 Well I for one it seems dont mind clearing trash. Thats one big part in an encounter and story. If you were only to fight bosses then they wouldnt have to mind surroundings. Just have a big room with 1,2 or 3 bosses and have a slughterfest and lootdrop. I dont call that a game. I woulndt mind going through longer areas of trash. They could even make some elite trash drop some mods, enhancements etc. Say in EC SM drop random Columi parts and schematics. On HM Rakata mods and schematics. When you know mecanics of a boss and the group is comfy with it no boss fight takes more then 10 minutes today. I like the trash to atleast take the 10-15 min for warm up before the boss or/and chill the adrenalin from the last encounter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alifaraaz Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 Well I for one it seems dont mind clearing trash. Thats one big part in an encounter and story. If you were only to fight bosses then they wouldnt have to mind surroundings. Just have a big room with 1,2 or 3 bosses and have a slughterfest and lootdrop. I dont call that a game. I woulndt mind going through longer areas of trash. They could even make some elite trash drop some mods, enhancements etc. Say in EC SM drop random Columi parts and schematics. On HM Rakata mods and schematics. When you know mecanics of a boss and the group is comfy with it no boss fight takes more then 10 minutes today. I like the trash to atleast take the 10-15 min for warm up before the boss or/and chill the adrenalin from the last encounter. Yeah WoW tried the whole Gladiator arena just Boss after Boss with no trash. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, that raid was a bit of a 'filler' raid anyways, but it wasn't very fun. I hate clearing trash, especially in this game as a tank, its just a chore. But I have to say, both in this game and in WoW, many of our 'first' kills have been after wiping for like 2 hours, then having to re-clear trash, and then killing the boss the attempt after that. It can be a nice little break almost, letting you collect yourselves after a boss fight. I do feel there was a bit too much trash in EC, but more specifically too much of the same trash. In particular between the Tanks and Minefield bosses, that whole trenches area is horrible to clear, hate it Some more interesting varying trash would be nice. As for incentive, some extra chance for loot would be good, but for now the Blackhole Commendation chests, I thought that was a good idea I'd like to see a good 6-7 bosses is Terror. I'm not expecting any more than that tbh. If there are, fantastic - but they've not said or done anything to suggest that they're moving away from the 5-boss pattern. (EC is only 4, but then theres NP too) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vankris Posted August 20, 2012 Author Share Posted August 20, 2012 (edited) Tactically Random Ai Spawn Heuristic aka TRASH Those are necessary for any good design dungeons (or games for that matter). Any games out there let you fight weak enemies, in pack often, before leading you to a boss fight. From double dragon to R-type, from tomb raid to batman arkham city, this is the base of design, you don't just fight boss. Trash offers - Pacing - Feel of progression in the dungeon - Feel of power - Let your class shine (crowd control, kick, stun, tanking, kiting, ...) - offer a break between more tense and difficult fight like bosses. Often, you can chat with friend, joke or even make a quick afk during trash clear. - also give chance of unique loot, gold - in some mmo, reputation. So yes, dungeon and raids needs trash, they have a purpose. Possibly the worst raid instance blizzard ever created, trial of the crusaders, is the one with no trash (and no exploring). Although the boss were interesting admitedly. Edited August 20, 2012 by Vankris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarethRiker Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 Just get the designers of Lost Island to do the design. 4 big bosses including the bonus and two mini bosses. Trash provides good pacing and isn't monotonous. Scaling that style up to an Operation would be great. In general I thought EV and KP did a nice job with trash and EC each set between bosses just wears a bit, maybe 1-2 pulls too many. I like the above posters idea of having some columi or tionese drops on the trash. We get these off bosses in HM FPS now, so wouldn't be too bad to have drop as BOP on top tier content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchangelLBC Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 I'm not against trash but seriously the trenches between Firebrand/Stormcaller and the minefield is just one long horrible headache. If the trash DID drop something on even a semi-regular basis (I've never seen a thing drop from the trench trash) that would be something, and putting stuff in the way of the chest that would otherwise be skippable is fine too, but slogging through the trenches to get to the boss is only fun in the way that it resembles actual Trench Warfare: Slow and not very rewarding. I agree that the trash in EV and KP was done pretty well. I actually think KP is about perfect. A scaling up of the LI side of things is also pretty good, but in general, compared to EC, I want more bosses (at LEAST 5 but preferrably 7-8. Maybe 5 bosses and 2 optional bosses? Either way 4 is way too few) and less trash (again not too much less, but even the devs have said that EC maybe had a little too much). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dacce Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 I would also like to see 6-8 bosses instead of 4 with lots of trash. not that I want trash removed completely, its good to have things to do between bosses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 EV and KP had 5 each; so actually, you're wrong. EV: The turrets arent a boss, so the droid is one, gharj is two, the council is three, and soa is 4. The puzzle isnt a boss. KP: Bonethrasher, Jharg and sorno (one loot one boss), foreman crusher, the droid, and karraga... So i guess your right on that one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 And sadly, statements like this are why we don't get more, and why people complain about no content after a month. If we could do it in one night, id be happy, but our raid schedule a week is basically EV NIM KP NIM EC SM EC HM SM Random for BH Comms Then it would be terror from beyond. Thats six days a week, and i dont know a single guildie that would soon want to make it seven,let alone be able to make all of these anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaqen Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 If we could do it in one night, id be happy, but our raid schedule a week is basically EV NIM 30-45 mins KP NIM45-60 mins EC SM60-90 mins EC HM2-4 hours SM Random for BH Comms Then it would be terror from beyond. Thats six days a week, and i dont know a single guildie that would soon want to make it seven,let alone be able to make all of these anyway. I put in red the average time it usually takes me to compete these raids in a competent pug, I would assume you and your guildies would be able to raid at least 2 to 4 hours a night, and could easily reduce your 5 day raid week into 2 or even 3. There is also the question of kp/ev NiM being worth running anymore, especially with TFB SM dropping campaign level loot, but that is a guilds personal preference to run those as a guild or not, but either way you should have more then enough time to fit tfb into your week even if it would take you 2 to 3 days to clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karasuko Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 (edited) I put in red the average time it usually takes me to compete these raids in a competent pug, I would assume you and your guildies would be able to raid at least 2 to 4 hours a night, and could easily reduce your 5 day raid week into 2 or even 3. There is also the question of kp/ev NiM being worth running anymore, especially with TFB SM dropping campaign level loot, but that is a guilds personal preference to run those as a guild or not, but either way you should have more then enough time to fit tfb into your week even if it would take you 2 to 3 days to clear. I can already see our raid week. day 1 HM EC day 2 SM TFB. Day 2.5 NP and clean up. UNtil we're fully geared out (1-2 more weeks) Then its going to look like Day 1 SM TFB Day 2. HM TFB Day 2.5 God knows. All up its about 4.5hours raiding.I can probably imagine us dropping SM TFB as soon as ew're fully camp BiS. Edited August 21, 2012 by Karasuko Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alifaraaz Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 Well realistically why would anyone still bother with EV/KP Nightmare and EC story after Terror is released unless you're bored on a Sunday or Monday night after clearing Terror and EC hm. Obviously if you're not at that level yet that's a different story, but I'm referring to the people without time. I think we've had more than enough time to clear EC hm and get mostly full BiS Campaign. The boots I can understand quite a few not having etc, but even then the Black Hole equivalent is easily earned. When Terror goes live I can see us working on SM learning the fights. Don't know how hard its gonna be, but assuming its like EC, well learn and clear SM in the first week over 3 nights. Then 2nd week, depending on how we are with gear, 2 nights of Terror HM and 1 night of Terror SM/EC hm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vankris Posted August 21, 2012 Author Share Posted August 21, 2012 (edited) it seems that, for a majority of response here, the common trend is. - More boss for a tier. - Less tedious and time consuming trash - Wish to clean a raid in a night. With this in mind, what would work in PVE design is. - Multiple raid within a tier - Total raid boss for a tier would be 7-10 - Each raid shouldn't be more than 5-6 boss each. - Trash should have an interest. Either fun to kill and/or have a value (loot, reputation, credits, shematics) Would you agree? Edited August 21, 2012 by Vankris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaqen Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 it seems that, for a majority of response here, the common trend is. - More boss pour a tier. - Less tedious and time consuming trash - Wish to clean a raid in a night. With this in mind, what would work in PVE design is. - Multiple raid within a tier - Total raid boss for a tier would be 7-10 - Each raid shouldn't be more than 5-6 boss each. - Trash should have an interest. Either fun to kill and/or have a value (loot, reputation, credits, shematics) Would you agree? How long an raid takes is very subjective, since some guilds are more efficient then others, as well as if the raid is on farm or not for an guild. With EC HM you see the majority of guilds clearing it in a single night, some half a night, then there are others who take 2 or 3 nights... who do you cater to when you say the raid should be cleared in a single night? When it comes to trash, i think less weaker/aoe spam trash is good, while making what trash encounters that are in an operation harder and more challenging would be more rewarding. If there is no risk of dying, it quickly becomes boring and trivial. I would like to see at least random crafting mats to drop off the trash (at a far greater rate then what they do in HM EC atm). I understand why they may not want to add crafting schematics, since they were so rare out of EV/KP that were non existent. How many bosses in a raid, to me is really dependent on the difficulty of the fights, and the loot that is being rewarded; usually though more is better then fewer, but if you start doing a large amount you need to give people the option to choose between bosses sometimes (aka. different wings). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vankris Posted August 30, 2012 Author Share Posted August 30, 2012 (edited) still no info about terror from beyond. How many bosses? Will there be another world boss as well? Any novel mechanics? Are they doing something original with trash mob? Surely by now, bioware could share some informations? How many bosses in a raid, to me is really dependent on the difficulty of the fights, and the loot that is being rewarded; usually though more is better then fewer, but if you start doing a large amount you need to give people the option to choose between bosses sometimes (aka. different wings). For those who have played it, there was a boss event in karazhan, a wow raid instance, called the opera event. Each week, the game woud choose one encounter out of 3. So if nobody told you, you wouldn't be able to know what would be the encounter. I remember times where the raid lead explain the wizard of Oz and the Little Red Riding Hood would just appear (run away little girl, run away^^ ) Edited August 30, 2012 by Vankris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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