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Is it wrong that, revisiting SoR, made me think what the hell went wrong w KotFE?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Is it wrong that, revisiting SoR, made me think what the hell went wrong w KotFE?
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MeNaCe-NZ's Avatar


MeNaCe-NZ
07.01.2017 , 05:13 PM | #221
Quote: Originally Posted by AscendingSky View Post
By your logic, movie critics shouldn't be allowed to do their job unless they themselves have personally made a movie.

Everyone can offer criticism and opinions on anything, dear. Of course, whether the creators of the thing that's being criticized and opined on take said critiques and opinions to heart is totally up to them! But you don't have to be a musician/artist/film director/book author/hold a degree in political science/etc. to share criticism and opinions on people's actions and creations.
Most decent movie critics, game critics critique the movie - not the person. Just saying ...

DarthSpuds's Avatar


DarthSpuds
07.01.2017 , 05:14 PM | #222
Quote: Originally Posted by LtGeneralGezlin View Post
I just don't want to go back to radio silence.
Neither do I; but it is wholly false to suggest anything we do necessarily impacts that - it doesn't.

The ONLY reason for Bioware to return to "radio silence" is because they CHOOSE to... ...end of.

All The Best
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MeNaCe-NZ's Avatar


MeNaCe-NZ
07.01.2017 , 05:15 PM | #223
Quote: Originally Posted by ZionHalcyon View Post
Thank you for illustrating what I mean by attacking the person and not the argument.
Says the guy who basically suggested someone be fired to justify their issues with the story. Says the personally personally misconstruing and attacking Keith's personal opinion because he does not agree with it.

Yet again - one rule for others and another for yourself.

Eshvara's Avatar


Eshvara
07.01.2017 , 05:18 PM | #224
Sometimes it's just better to nope out of a thread. o7

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LtGeneralGezlin's Avatar


LtGeneralGezlin
07.01.2017 , 05:19 PM | #225
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthSpuds View Post
Neither do I; but it is wholly false to suggest anything we do necessarily impacts that - it doesn't.

The ONLY reason for Bioware to return to "radio silence" is because they CHOOSE to... ...end of.

All The Best
If they choose to, it would be as a result of the actions of others.

Remember the incident with players going after one of the class devs a few years back? It isn't wholly false to suggest that something people might say or do could lead to radio silence from the higher ups.
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DarthSpuds's Avatar


DarthSpuds
07.01.2017 , 05:19 PM | #226
Quote: Originally Posted by Eshvara View Post
I haven't read all the pages as this thread is quite something! Nobody should be making personal attacks,
I think we need to clear something up.

If I say "game element X was utter rubbish and whoever is responsible for that really isn't up to the task" that ISN'T a personal attack, even if I name that person it is still NOT a personal attack - it is an opinion based upon my observation of pertinent factors.

A personal attack would, IMO, be "that Y is an idiot" without giving any supporting evidence as to why I think that.

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indelible
07.01.2017 , 05:20 PM | #227
Quote: Originally Posted by KeithKanneg View Post
[color=#f9d648]Actually, when you view it plainly, it says dumping over anyone with a different viewpoint is not OK. But, I was attempting to course correct the thread, not hijack it.

As I stated in the Roadmap, part of opening dialog requires that we set expectations to ensure our conversations and debates remain productive. I should have already communicated the following to everyone: I completely agree with discourse, debates, and telling us about your utter dissatisfaction about something we've implemented in the game, or the way we told a story. In return, I ask for civility, commentary without the insults, and when possible, for actionable feedback.
I'm sorry for this aside, but I really can't let this point go without responding to it directly...

I haven't seen you engage in one actual, genuine conversation since you've become producer. Your idea of transparent dialogue is dumping a huge post about how balance is achieved, but where were you for the actual conversation about it? Nowhere to be seen. A set of quasi-blog posts dropped on the forum for us to discuss and you to abandon does not a conversation make. I've seen you dump info in response to posts, I've seen eric dumping info as per usual, I've seen random devs and writers dumping info, and then? Nothing. The story thread? Info dump, not a conversation to be had. The class change threads? Info dumps, no conversations to be had at all even where people make highly salient and meaningful points about things the community is genuinely concerned about...

Don't take this as any disrespect here, Keith, but your idea of a conversation and my idea of a conversation appear to be two very different things. You guys talk AT us; you rarely, if ever, talk WITH us. I think you need to stop trying to convince us this thing is a duck; it doesn't quack like a duck, it doesn't swim like a duck, it doesn't fly like a duck. It patently is not a duck. You can't market this sort of thing like that.

Sorry if that's a slight aside, but it's something I felt I needed to say.
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MeNaCe-NZ's Avatar


MeNaCe-NZ
07.01.2017 , 05:21 PM | #228
Quote: Originally Posted by KeithKanneg View Post
Actually, when you view it plainly, it says dumping over anyone with a different viewpoint is not OK. But, I was attempting to course correct the thread, not hijack it.

As I stated in the Roadmap, part of opening dialog requires that we set expectations to ensure our conversations and debates remain productive. I should have already communicated the following to everyone: I completely agree with discourse, debates, and telling us about your utter dissatisfaction about something we've implemented in the game, or the way we told a story. In return, I ask for civility, commentary without the insults, and when possible, for actionable feedback.

This isn't about hiding behind a defensive wall, it's about treating others (not just the Dev Team), with respect and allowing them to provide their viewpoints without being mocked and mistreated. Not everyone likes to be bashed around and for many, they simply don't participate which narrows the view to just a few players. That's not healthy for our game, either.

I do apologize for jumping into this thread and derailing the conversation. If possible, let's agree to stop any further comments about this and get back to the purpose of the thread. How about we start up a new thread about forum decorum (yah, I know, but it rhymed) where I'll be happy to participate.
Another great, well reasoned post. It's funny that still some are going on about your previous post and sort of pretending like this one didn't exist as a means of justification and moving forward.

I would hope anyone reading Keith's post here would note at this point anyone going further to continue to attack Keith over his posts has not interest in the topic at hand but solely wants to in flame the situation.

Sure, we can continue to debate with one another in this rather off topic matter but I see no point to direct it back at Keith any further on the back of that post.

Keith - how about YOU start that topic as a side discussion topic? I would be interested in your thoughts on forum decorum with examples as I often myself find it hard to find that line between vehement arguing and possibly going a little bit too far into the realms of rule breaking.

Often it's like "well they are clearly making personal remarks so I will too" yet one person just ends up over line (not talking outright abuse here) and gets sanctioned or has posts removed whilst the other other does not. Where is this line? Ideally many of the posts that outright seem to attack Charles and yourself in this thread as opposed to the content itself should be deleted should they not? Warnings issued? I get you have painted yourself into a corner by actually responding now and it would seem heavily bias to do so but ... rules are rules are they not?

MeNaCe-NZ's Avatar


MeNaCe-NZ
07.01.2017 , 05:22 PM | #229
Quote: Originally Posted by indelible View Post
I'm sorry for this aside, but I really can't let this point go without responding to it directly...

I haven't seen you engage in one actual, genuine conversation since you've become producer. Your idea of transparent dialogue is dumping a huge post about how balance is achieved, but where were you for the actual conversation about it? Nowhere to be seen. A set of quasi-blog posts dropped on the forum for us to discuss and you to abandon does not a conversation make. I've seen you dump info in response to posts, I've seen eric dumping info as per usual, I've seen random devs and writers dumping info, and then? Nothing. The story thread? Info dump, not a conversation to be had. The class change threads? Info dumps, no conversations to be had at all even where people make highly salient and meaningful points about things the community is genuinely concerned about...

Don't take this as any disrespect here, Keith, but your idea of a conversation and my idea of a conversation appear to be two very different things. You guys talk AT us; you rarely, if ever, talk WITH us. I think you need to stop trying to convince us this thing is a duck; it doesn't quack like a duck, it doesn't swim like a duck, it doesn't fly like a duck. It patently is not a duck. You can't market this sort of thing like that.

Sorry if that's a slight aside, but it's something I felt I needed to say.
And you couldn't make a new topic about this because .... ???

EricMusco's Avatar


EricMusco
07.01.2017 , 05:23 PM | #230 This is the last staff post in this thread.  
Hey folks,

This thread is gonna need a little housekeeping, so bear with me. This thread has split up into two main discussion points (although there is certainly a little overlap). First, the story of SoR as it relates to the story of KOTFE and KOTET. Second, is feedback, criticism, and the SWTOR team. Both are important to us but right now they are getting a little lost. For that reason, I am going to close this thread. However, we absolutely do not want this discussion to stop and so here are new threads I made, separately, for those topics:
--Story Discussion - Shadow of Revan through KOTET
--Feedback / Criticism and the Forums

Please head to either thread to continue those conversations. Do your best to keep them on the topic at hand. I already gave Keith his infraction for derailing the thread ! Really, both of these topics are important to us and we want to hear your feedback. Get in there.

-eric
Eric Musco | Community Manager
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