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Is it wrong that, revisiting SoR, made me think what the hell went wrong w KotFE?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Is it wrong that, revisiting SoR, made me think what the hell went wrong w KotFE?
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commanderwar's Avatar


commanderwar
07.01.2017 , 04:32 PM | #201
Quote: Originally Posted by MeNaCe-NZ View Post
Yet another awesome post. Wow guys, this is whole new level of communication we've never seen before in this game or to be honest ... any game.

Great to see the comradery between you and that you're not afraid to actually put these post out into the community for us to see.
I agree as well this is great direction in terms of commination, dev to be honest and show us there POV of things is awesome.

DarthSpuds's Avatar


DarthSpuds
07.01.2017 , 04:35 PM | #202
Quote: Originally Posted by Jdast View Post
What can Keith / Charles say to make you happy? Answer:
1) They can admit that Iokath is wholly underwhelming, overly repetitive, significantly derivative of EVERYTHING that was bad about FE/ET, and nothing at all like Star Wars.

2) Commit to not only reading and listening to our feedback - but taking it on board and having it inform future decisions.

3) Commit to bringing to a close all of the FE / ET / Iokath rubbish (for that is what it is) ASAP and consigning it to the same SWTOR Trash Can that they have thrown intelligently written Class / Faction stories in.

4) Dig Class / Faction Stories out of that trash can and star working on them again.

5) Admit that a "one size fits all" mono-rail story actually fits NO ONE AT ALL.

If they said that and actually demonstrated they meant it I'd sub for a year right now

All The Best
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ZionHalcyon's Avatar


ZionHalcyon
07.01.2017 , 04:35 PM | #203
Quote: Originally Posted by Jdast View Post
What Kodrac said. Not suggesting s/he agrees with what I've written, but it's fair to say I agree with him.

We have people in this thread telling Keith how to conduct marketing and PR, even going so far as to write what he should say verbatim. Of course, there are a host of business as well as professional (related to personal) equities as to why he would be foolish to do so.

BUT LET'S ASSUME HE DID! Where the _____ (insert choice cuss word) does that get us? Let's assume for the sake of argument that Keith and Charles prostrate themselves and say -- it's all been a horrible mistake. They are NOT going to retcon all of KotFE / ET.

We already know that they understand full-well the criticisms (that, frankly, both Kodrac and I have leveled) as well as folks like Zion, Yus, AscendingSky, etc., have done -- often times very sensibly and eloquently. Zion, I was the first (yes, the first) to say I liked your idea of the brother thing -- but that it wasn't really sensible to implement now.

TL;DR: What can Keith / Charles say to make you happy? Answer: Nothing. Many of you are painting Keith and Charles into a corner because they can't reply yet about what awaits us in the future ; instead, many of you just want your pound of flesh. That's the height of chutzpah.

Edit: Frankly, this thread has devolved into a cesspool of back and forth. Best to lock it IMHO.
You are being insulting very disingenuous considering that in this very thread two people offered suggestions of things they could have said that would have worked a lot better so know the answer wasn't nothing.

What's the point of having discourse if you've already decided the other side isn't worth your time to listen to because nothing will ever make them happy?

My point still stands that this attitude is toxic for any sort of discourse or feedback because it tries to shut down and ignore any criticisms others might put forth and label every single criticism as name-calling when it is not the same thing.

kodrac's Avatar


kodrac
07.01.2017 , 04:39 PM | #204
Quote: Originally Posted by AscendingSky View Post
By your logic, movie critics shouldn't be allowed to do their job unless they themselves have personally made a movie.

Everyone can offer criticism and opinions on anything, dear. Of course, whether the creators of the thing that's being criticized and opined on take said critiques and opinions to heart is totally up to them! But you don't have to be a musician/artist/film director/book author/hold a degree in political science/etc. to share criticism and opinions on people's actions and creations.
Fair point. But it is their profession to critique. i don't know Zion's profession but I'm sure it isn't game critic otherwise he'd be writing articles for those sites. Not ranting on a forum. He goes further than criticizing. Before he quit he demanded Musco and the Community Relations team to be fired. Now that he's back he's calling for writers to be fired. Supposedly he's back because of the new communication, but yet his need for drama has seem him dissect every word of a dev post and throw it back at them. Why should they engage with him? Doing so is a no win situation. And because he's so loud on the forums he can outweigh other people's opinions. it will just lead to Keith and the team saying **** it I'm not talking to those people anymore.

LtGeneralGezlin's Avatar


LtGeneralGezlin
07.01.2017 , 04:41 PM | #205
Quote: Originally Posted by Jdast View Post
What Kodrac said. Not suggesting s/he agrees with what I've written, but it's fair to say I agree with him.

We have people in this thread telling Keith how to conduct marketing and PR, even going so far as to write what he should say verbatim. Of course, there are a host of business as well as professional (related to personal) equities as to why he would be foolish to do so.

BUT LET'S ASSUME HE DID! Where the _____ (insert choice cuss word) does that get us? Let's assume for the sake of argument that Keith and Charles prostrate themselves and say -- it's all been a horrible mistake. They are STILL NOT going to retcon all of KotFE / ET.

We already know that they understand full-well the criticisms (that, frankly, both Kodrac and I have leveled) as well as folks like Zion, Yus, AscendingSky, etc., have done -- often times very sensibly and eloquently. Zion, I was the first (yes, the first) to say I liked your idea of the brother thing -- but that it wasn't really sensible to implement now.

TL;DR: What can Keith / Charles say to make you happy? Answer: Nothing. Many of you are painting Keith and Charles into a corner because they can't reply yet about what awaits us in the future ; instead, many of you just want your pound of flesh. That's the height of chutzpah.

Edit: Frankly, this thread has devolved into a cesspool of back and forth. Best to lock it IMHO.
Agreed! Some may have some good points (Even Zion, though it hurts to admit that... ), but it is getting lost in the "LOOK I WAS RIGHT!!! KOTFE/KOTET SUCCCC***KSKSSSS!" posts from others, and the "You aren't a writer, you don't know what you are talking about" posts.

Locking the thread now is the safest bet before things start getting more heated. I just hope this thread doesn't cause BWA to stop communicating with us...
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kodrac's Avatar


kodrac
07.01.2017 , 04:42 PM | #206
Quote: Originally Posted by ZionHalcyon View Post
My point still stands that this attitude is toxic for any sort of discourse or feedback because it tries to shut down and ignore any criticisms others might put forth and label every single criticism as name-calling when it is not the same thing.
And my point still stands that you are toxic. I agree with JDast that you won't ever be satisfied.

DarthSpuds's Avatar


DarthSpuds
07.01.2017 , 04:47 PM | #207
Quote: Originally Posted by LtGeneralGezlin View Post
Locking the thread now is the safest bet before things start getting more heated. I just hope this thread doesn't cause BWA to stop communicating with us...
Locking the thread just because they don't like the direction it is going WOULD be them stopping communicating with us.

That was what was wrong with things Pre-Keith; to return to that so soon would be disastrous.

Anyone who can't stand the heat really shouldn't be in the kitchen. Bioware are selling a product to paying customers - if they can't take and appropriately deal with critical feedback then they have major issues, and the product (game) is probably unsalvageable.

Facing and addressing criticism - even if some of it is unjustified - is a key component in turning a floundering business into a flourishing one.

All The Best
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LtGeneralGezlin's Avatar


LtGeneralGezlin
07.01.2017 , 04:54 PM | #208
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthSpuds View Post
Locking the thread just because they don't like the direction it is going WOULD be them stopping communicating with us.

That was what was wrong with things Pre-Keith; to return to that so soon would be disastrous.

Anyone who can't stand the heat really shouldn't be in the kitchen. Bioware are selling a product to paying customers - if they can't take and appropriately deal with critical feedback then they have major issues, and the product (game) is probably unsalvageable.

Facing and addressing criticism - even if some of it is unjustified - is a key component in turning a floundering business into a flourishing one.

All The Best
I'm not saying they should avoid addressing criticism by locking the thread, I should have worded my reply better. I think the fact that Charles and Keith are even commenting about this was great, and I want more of that! What I'm saying that the way that some are acting, someone is going to say something that makes someone else angry, they are going to get reported, and that just won't end well. Frankly, closing this thread and starting a new one posted by Musco or Charles or Keith, and having the forum mods keep an eye on it is a good idea.

I just don't want to go back to radio silence.
CE Owner - The Gallifreyan Legacy - Squad 238 Tester
65 Gunslinger, 65 Commando, 60 Sentinel, 65 Shadow.
53 Operative, 54 Mercenary, 65 Marauder, 63 Juggernaut, 54 Sorcerer.

Eshvara's Avatar


Eshvara
07.01.2017 , 04:57 PM | #209
Quote: Originally Posted by LtGeneralGezlin View Post
I'm not saying they should avoid addressing criticism by locking the thread, I should have worded my reply better. I think the fact that Charles and Keith are even commenting about this was great, and I want more of that! What I'm saying that the way that some are acting, someone is going to say something that makes someone else angry, they are going to get reported, and that just won't end well. Frankly, closing this thread and starting a new one posted by Musco or Charles or Keith, and having the forum mods keep an eye on it is a good idea.

I just don't want to go back to radio silence.
Well said! The forums seemed also more positive before things started to get heated again in mainly this thread. If people want the Devs to continue enjoy communicating with us, maybe they should try and be a t least a little more pleasant. It couldn't hurt.
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ZionHalcyon's Avatar


ZionHalcyon
07.01.2017 , 04:57 PM | #210
Quote: Originally Posted by kodrac View Post
And my point still stands that you are toxic. I agree with JDast that you won't ever be satisfied.
Thank you for illustrating what I mean by attacking the person and not the argument.