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When can we expect a DPS balance patch?


KurtDunn

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I would like to take a moment, to familiarize everyone with the damage output on competitive DPS leaderboards across several servers. Begeren Colony, The Ebon Hawk, Jedi Covenant, The Harbinger.

 

At the moment, Gunslingers and Sentinels are the hands down best choice for all your damage dealing needs. Their damage is consistently high, one provides the armor debuff you'd need, and you can stack Inspirations without penalty.

 

Why would anyone want to do anything but full Sentinel for their melee DPS? At least with ranged, you have the choice between Commandos or Gunslingers as they are almost identical in output and performance, but Sages under-perform by a very notable amount.

 

But critically, why does almost every single DPS option play second fiddle to Sentinels with their gloriously high damage, and group wide DPS buff?

 

I'm not calling for nerfs, but why aren't we even seeing the inklings of damage tweaks across other classes? Have devs talked about this already and I somehow missed it? And if not, why not?

Edited by KurtDunn
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They apparently have one guy in charge of class balancing. No, I'm not even kidding. One. AND he's also part of the PvP team... So even though there's plenty of stuff to adress, it will take a long, loooong time.

 

If you PvP'd pre 2.0, Bubble stun was broken for a long time, and it took them a long time to even fix that. It should've been simple, but apprently not..

Edited by Gullesvupper
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Preface: I'm the maintainer and moderator of the Ebon Hawk DPS leaderboard thread.

 

You should probably read my wall of text that I put above the actual leaderboard. There are a lot of factors that need to be considered when talking about DPS balance. I'll try to break these down into categories:

 

  • Single-target on-demand burst
  • Single-target sustained damage
  • Sustainable AoE damage
  • Sustainable burst-moment AoE
  • Execute windows
  • Utility
  • Flexibility

 

Dummy parses measure exactly one of these categories. If you have a spec which excels at *all* of these but falls behind in single-target sustained damage, is that unbalanced?

 

My ideal group has an armor debuff in rotation (ideally from more than one raid member), at least two (preferably three) ranged, an off-taunt, off-heals/battle rez, moderate executes, Inspiration, and fairly strong sustainable AoE. There's a lot of ways you can get this. I really like the following:

 

  • Gunnery Commando
  • Sharpshooter Gunslinger (with ability to respec Hybrid or Sabo for some fights)
  • Focus/Combat Sentinel (situational respec)
  • Hybrid/Tactics Vanguard (or a Focus Guardian; or a perfectly played Balance Shadow)

 

Tactics Vanguard is quite far behind the other specs in terms of single-target sustained damage (for that matter, so is a Focus Sentinel), but they're still on my preferred list because of the strong AoE, the situational burst and the off-taunt. A Focus Guardian can fill this role well as well, and allow the sentinel to remain Combat spec. The main thing I don't like about the Vanguard here is the lack of execute (which is why I lean toward the Balance Shadow assuming absolutely perfect play).

 

Note that I do change this for some fights. Dread Guard is all about…not melee. Dash'roode is a fantastic fight for melee that are not sentinels, especially AoE melee (I love my DF Scoundrel on this fight).

 

These aren't exactly FOTM specs. My ideal group doesn't stack four Gunslinger or four Sentinels (though my guild has enough roster depth that we could actually do that). Not everything is well measured by dummy DPS.

 

With that said, there are a few things about the current DPS balance that I feel need adjusting. Off the top of my head:

 

  • Shadow DPS requires utterly flawless play to even put up viable numbers, much less competitive (and this is on a *boss*; shadows will never compete on dummies)
  • Focus Sentinels are almost 10% behind the other two specs in terms of single-target DPS (this is not a balance check shared with Focus Guardians, incidentally)
  • Assault Commandos are a running gag
  • All Vanguard specs are quite low on the totem pole for real bosses, since hybrid spec requires some really magical RNG to get its best results. They also lack a gap closer
  • Sage DPS is somewhat behind (5-6%) in terms of single-target DPS, though they bring moderate AoEs and (in the case of Balance) a moderate execute together with off-heals

 

These are easy things to tweak though, and I have confidence that Bioware will see the light on Shadows soon (which is, honestly, the most egregious of these issues).

 

At the end of the day, I can and have taken every one of the DPS specs into both HM raids at one point or another, even shadows. I've taken nearly all DPS specs into Nightmare modes (including shadows). That says something right there, since I wouldn't be able to say that in clear conscience pre-2.0 (lol scoundrel).

 

Remember, it doesn't matter if all or none of your DPS group got onto the leaderboards. What matters is that the boss is dead.

Edited by KeyboardNinja
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I take it you play the Sentinel or Gunslinger in that setup? It's always easier looking on the bright side and having faith in Bioware if your class is extremely strong. And what you said there is just PvE, there's DPS classes hurting immensly in PvP as well - in some cases because of sub par burst, wonky usage or crappy survivability. And in PvP you will need to get the best class setup you can, if you're serious and want to try and get as far up as you can.

 

Class balance is not good, and they need to address it in 2.4.

Edited by Gullesvupper
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Preface: I'm the maintainer and moderator of the Ebon Hawk DPS leaderboard thread.

 

You should probably read my wall of text that I put above the actual leaderboard. There are a lot of factors that need to be considered when talking about DPS balance. I'll try to break these down into categories:

 

  • Single-target on-demand burst
  • Single-target sustained damage
  • Sustainable AoE damage
  • Sustainable burst-moment AoE
  • Execute windows
  • Utility
  • Flexibility

 

Dummy parses measure exactly one of these categories. If you have a spec which excels at *all* of these but falls behind in single-target sustained damage, is that unbalanced?

 

Thank you KBN. Thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you. Too many people look at DPS meters and leader boards and think that that is the end-all-be-all of everything DPS while in reality it isn't even the start. So many people have even claimed that it is necessary to bring all snipers or maras to certain fights when that is simply false. Because of the way SW:tOR is designed, in most cases it is possible to "bring the player not the class" in terms of raid composition however there are some notable exceptions which you made very clear. There is no fight in the game at any level that is impossible with a certain class in a certain role. Some are made more difficult (eg: bringing a shadow on Dread Guards means that player either has to be perfect or the rest of the DPS has some DPS to make up for) but they are all more than doable.

 

Remember, it doesn't matter if all or none of your DPS group got onto the leaderboards. What matters is that the boss is dead.

 

This is going in my Signature. Perfect.

 

I take it you play the Sentinel or Gunslinger in that setup? It's always easier looking on the bright side and having faith in Bioware if your class is extremely strong.

 

Most hardcore PvPers I've known from other games know that in order to min/max in PvP you have to play the FotM. Certain classes will always be stronger in PvP and the only way to consistently beat that is to have alts who you are willing to play. Maybe everyone is going to think I'm stupid for saying that or an elitist jerk, who knows. Its true though. Its also true that some classes need some love in ALL aspects of the game but if you really want to win and win consistently you have to be willing to play the hand you're dealt. As for KBN he is actually a tank MS. Guardian, I believe and has been for quite some time.

 

Class balance is not good, and they need to address it in 2.4.

 

First off, in all honesty they don't "need" to do anything. They could shut down the servers all right now and not owe any of us anything. Second, class balance isn't great at the moment. Some classes are right where the should be (Snipers), some are damn close (Marauders, Juggernauts, Sorcerers and I'd argue Operatives) and some fixes for 1 tree or another (Powertechs and Mercenaries for both of whom Pyrotech is absolutely worthless - there might as well only be a combined 4 trees for that class) and one needs a complete overhaul (Assassin tanking needs to be looked at as well as Deception and Madness DPS). For 8 total Advanced Classes only ONE is truly broken. That is pretty damn close to evenly balanced. If you want all the DPS specs to be even then you do not understand the INSANE amount of utility just being able to taunt or off-heal adds to the game. If all DPS were even there would be no place for Pure DPS classes.

Edited by kennethdale
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Taunts and off heals provide marginal utility in very specific settings. In most cases, a taunt will get you flattened and an offheal will kill your resources(unless lightning sorc) and be worse than bringing a good healer anyway.

 

They're good in PvP, sure, but in most pve encounters, bloodthirst and ballistic shield provide more utility in an ops group.

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I take it you play the Sentinel or Gunslinger in that setup? It's always easier looking on the bright side and having faith in Bioware if your class is extremely strong. And what you said there is just PvE, there's DPS classes hurting immensly in PvP as well - in some cases because of sub par burst, wonky usage or crappy survivability. And in PvP you will need to get the best class setup you can, if you're serious and want to try and get as far up as you can.

 

Class balance is not good, and they need to address it in 2.4.

 

I'm the tank in that group, and my tank is a shadow. Don't talk to me about broken classes. Believe me, I know. :-)

 

I tank on a shadow post-2.0. I healed on my commando even pre-2.0. I rolled a Combat Sentinel before they were FOTM and Ataru was seen even less than Shi-cho. I brought a Lightning Sorc into progression raids pre-2.0, and I very nearly main-swapped to the most energy constrained, razer-edge DPS spec in the game because I thought it was fun. It's not as if I don't know what it means to have a class that is very difficult to play viably. Things are so much better than they used to be in terms of relative class balance. And that's speaking as someone who mains the most broken Advanced Class in the game.

 

I do 100% agree that PvP DPS isn't as well balanced as PvE. I would be willing to take almost any class and spec to almost any encounter in the PvE endgame, but I just can't say the same thing about rated warzones. Unfortunately, there is a purely mathematical argument to be made that this realm will never be balanced due to the number of specs in play, so I don't hold out much hope here.

 

Taunts and off heals provide marginal utility in very specific settings. In most cases, a taunt will get you flattened and an offheal will kill your resources(unless lightning sorc) and be worse than bringing a good healer anyway.

 

My experience contradicts yours. At a minimum, an off-healer brings a battle rez. We almost never have our healers rez, since if someone died, it usually means the healing was tight enough that they don't have the GCD to spare. As to the off-taunt, it really depends on what is going on. It's one of those things that you never want to use, but which brings nearly invaluable benefits when things have gone haywire (e.g. tank temporarily down in 3rd phase of the Dread Guard; off-taunt takes the Leech).

 

They're good in PvP, sure, but in most pve encounters, bloodthirst and ballistic shield provide more utility in an ops group.

 

I love ballistic shield, which is part of the reason why I like having a gunslinger. You rarely need two of them in a row though. Bloodthirst is great, but believe it or not, its value is actually substantially lower (by a factor of 10!) than a simple armor debuff. And overall, why settle for just one or the other? I like to balance the utility of my raid group to the maximal extent possible.

Edited by KeyboardNinja
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I wasn't saying that they are completely worthless, for sure. And I definitely agree on DPS being better to use battle rez, for the same reason.

 

However, I don't think they bring sufficient utility above and beyond what snipers and maras bring such that classes possessing a tank or heal spec should take a hit in their dps when in a full DPS spec. That was my main point.

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However, I don't think they bring sufficient utility above and beyond what snipers and maras bring such that classes possessing a tank or heal spec should take a hit in their dps when in a full DPS spec. That was my main point.

 

I'll agree there. I think class utilities are reasonably well balanced, overall. I don't think there is any need to inhibit DPS to compensate for utilities in the current game, and a lot of the classes bear that out. Scoundrels, for example, have the highest single-target DPS spec in the game, despite off-heals, stealth rez and battle rez. Gunslingers can essentially keep up with Scoundrels as a pure DPS spec, but they also bring some very strong utilities as well as nicities like pushback immunity (very useful on fights like Dread Guard where there is a lot of raid damage).

 

The point I was making earlier though is that even if a spec happens to be somewhat behind the others in single-target DPS (on the order of 3-4%), if their utilities are desirable for a particular group comp and raid, I'd probably take them anyway (especially if they are well played).

Edited by KeyboardNinja
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Can't argue with any of that.

 

My original comment wasn't really directed at you anyway, more just the idea that seems common on these forums that "hybrid" ACs, when in a full DPS spec, SHOULD be behind "pure" ACs in DPS. This notion is, IMO, complete *********.

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I do appreciate that you have great experience in NiM raids, but the benefits of bringing more than one armor debuff seems dubious. They patched it so they don't stack way back. If you have a guardian tank (and almost all progression groups run with at least one Guardian tank), the utility of bringing a Gunnery Commando or Guardian DPS for their debuff is redundant.

 

Fact stands that every fight has an enrage mechanic. Every fight is a DPS check, and what really matters is how much blood DPS can squeeze from the stone. I am sure that it's possible to do NiM content without the most optimal class combination is possible, but I am unconvinced of equity between the DPS classes.

 

To your earlier point of dummy DPS parses only measuring sustained damage on bosses, I am struggling to remember any fights that don't have long stretches of DPS. The ramp up time for Vigilance Guardians, for example, is about 15 seconds. And 90% of all fights give you at least 15 second windows for DPS. I don't see the benefit of taking Focus over that for the rare exceptions.

 

And on the subject of Focus, to your brief comment on Focus Guardians, I have noted that Focus damage output is notably lower than Vigilance, with the exception of rare, productive AoE DPS (Dread Guards and Cartel Warlords don't count). I'm not sure if I'm doing something wrong, but Vig is consistently higher single target damage.

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I do appreciate that you have great experience in NiM raids, but the benefits of bringing more than one armor debuff seems dubious. They patched it so they don't stack way back. If you have a guardian tank (and almost all progression groups run with at least one Guardian tank), the utility of bringing a Gunnery Commando or Guardian DPS for their debuff is redundant.

 

Fact stands that every fight has an enrage mechanic. Every fight is a DPS check, and what really matters is how much blood DPS can squeeze from the stone. I am sure that it's possible to do NiM content without the most optimal class combination is possible, but I am unconvinced of equity between the DPS classes.

 

To your earlier point of dummy DPS parses only measuring sustained damage on bosses, I am struggling to remember any fights that don't have long stretches of DPS. The ramp up time for Vigilance Guardians, for example, is about 15 seconds. And 90% of all fights give you at least 15 second windows for DPS. I don't see the benefit of taking Focus over that for the rare exceptions.

 

And on the subject of Focus, to your brief comment on Focus Guardians, I have noted that Focus damage output is notably lower than Vigilance, with the exception of rare, productive AoE DPS (Dread Guards and Cartel Warlords don't count). I'm not sure if I'm doing something wrong, but Vig is consistently higher single target damage.

 

No Vigilance is definitely the go to spec for Guardians for single-target. If it wasn't or even if the difference was very small between it a Focus there would be no point for Vig at all.

Edited by ArenCordial
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Can't argue with any of that.

 

My original comment wasn't really directed at you anyway, more just the idea that seems common on these forums that "hybrid" ACs, when in a full DPS spec, SHOULD be behind "pure" ACs in DPS. This notion is, IMO, complete *********.

 

Why is it complete ********? The fact is that a Marauder/Sentinel or a Sniper/Gunslinger has only the utility abilities of the AC and their DPS. Every other class has their own utility abilities AND the ability to off-heal/off-tank in a bad situation which in-and-of-itself makes them more desirable. If all DPS were truly and completely equalized there would be no reason for a Pure DPS class in an Operation simply because under no circumstance is their utility greater than being able to temporarily fill in for a Healer or Tank. All of the max level toons listed in my signature are in HMs frequently (and NiM when my work schedule permits) and I fill all possible roles on all of them, so don't mistake me for a Marauder who loves his pretty big numbers and is so terrified someone will outdps me. I *truly* believe that Hybrid ACs should be slightly lower for the same reason that Rage/Focus should have lower single-target DPS than Annihilation/Watchman and Carnage/Combat: If it were equalized you would remove any need for the others.

 

Edit: As to the idea that there is such a thing as a "full dps" spec for the "hybrid" ACs, does that mean you have never put points into a tank/heal tree? I know for Sorc/Sages, Merc/Mandos, Jugg/Guards, Sin/Shads, PT/VGs, and Op/Scoun its very helpful to put at least a few points in their respective tank/heal tree. Unless you are putting 0 points in the tank/heal tree then you're not "full dps". Facetiousness aside, I have personally successfully (meaning the boss went down, not necessarily that I survived) Vengeance tanked, Arsenal Healed, and Lightning healed HM Op bosses. Whether or not the healing/tanking abilities are in your rotation, you have them and *should* use them when poop hits the fan just as a Marauder should use Undying Rage or a Sniper should use Sniper Shield. Heck I've even done *strategies* that use hybrid classes' innate off-specs to down bosses. How is that not utility?

 

I have seen *a lot* of people claim that on this fight or on that fight you absolutely need to bring only this class or only that class or that this class is mathematically impossible to do that fight with and its simply not true. There is currently no benefit to stacking any single class because of the way each ACs utility plays off of each others. The only class that this is not entirely true for at the moment is Shadow/Assassin DPS because frankly unless the player is of an amazing calibre, they will not come anywhere near even mediocre players of other classes and *that* is unbalanced. Mercenary/Commando Arsenal/Gunnery and Sorcerer/Sage Madness/Balance resource management is pretty broken as well, to be honest (not to mention Pyrotech/Assault). As are the true DPS specs of Powertech/Vanguard. I don't have an Operative/Scoundrel so I can't speak to how they are doing but they put up decent numbers (I believe I've *heard* that Concealment/Scrapper isn't all that great?). Those are all things that need to be fixed, yes, but save for Shadow/Assassins there is no "skill requirement" to make the class competitive.

 

I would even admit that if a Marauder/Sentinel or Sniper/Gunslinger in 69 gear could out DPS on a boss a hybrid DPS in 72/75 gear that *that* was broken (assuming players of equal skill) because the gap between the classes should not be *that* large. And its not! I have a Sorcerer friend who is in mostly 75s with some 72s mixed-in and she absolutely spanks my mostly 72 with some 69s mixed in Marauder. And that makes sense because she is in *significantly* better gear than me, but that wasn't always the case: back before she started raiding on that character and her Sorcerer and my Marauder were evenly geared, I kicked *her* butt. Now that she has better gear, the scales have shifted even though there hasn't been any change in player skill or class, simply in gear. That *is* the definition of class balance.

 

I'm really baffled as to why people think that a class that can effectively prevent a wipe simply by using abilities not in their normal rotation would not be more valuable than a class that cannot. Its insane.

Edited by kennethdale
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I primarily raid on a Pyro/AP PT and a Madness (sometimes lightning) sorc. I certainly HAVE used a taunt-and-cooldown on a tank death, or popped a heal or some bubbles on the sorc.

 

However, my contention is that the utility gained by using those abilities is no greater than the utility gained by a marauder using bloodthirst/predation to help the group, or a sniper using ballistic shield to help his group. They would certainly be used at different times and for different reasons, but that's why there's different classes in the game.

 

 

As to the question of why would you bring marauders and snipers to raids if everyone did equal dps? The answer is simple. You'd bring them because they offer a different kind of raid utility, and MORE importantly, because people in your raid enjoy playing those classes.

 

Marauders and snipers have more raid utility abilities than "hybrid" specs, precisely because they do not have the utility brought by off-heals and off-tanking. The balance is utility for utility, not utility for damage.

 

In any case, this entire discussion is somewhat pointless, as the devs have stated on numerous occasions that there is not intended to be any hybrid tax.

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For PVE, I have to agree that, with the exception of DPS shadows, we're probably down to just QoL stuff. Since I main commando, my main beef there is the extremely tight ammo management. Fix that and commandos really will put up similar numbers to gunslingers.

 

I do appreciate that you have great experience in NiM raids, but the benefits of bringing more than one armor debuff seems dubious. They patched it so they don't stack way back. If you have a guardian tank (and almost all progression groups run with at least one Guardian tank), the utility of bringing a Gunnery Commando or Guardian DPS for their debuff is redundant.

 

Yes and no. On council fights having a Guardian tank doesn't guarantee the debuff is on the main raid target. This is most noticeable on the Cartel Warlords, but Writhing Horror to some extent (the Jealous Males), the Dread Guard, TFB herself, and especially Operator IX benefit greatly from having DPS capable of applying the debuffs since your tanks can be, and often enough are, busy elsewhere. Gunnery Commando is by far the most useful here because not only is it in rotation, but it is completely spammable unlike the Jugg debuff (or even the sniper one, though that has a lower cooldown).

 

Fact stands that every fight has an enrage mechanic. Every fight is a DPS check, and what really matters is how much blood DPS can squeeze from the stone. I am sure that it's possible to do NiM content without the most optimal class combination is possible, but I am unconvinced of equity between the DPS classes.

 

Some fights are bigger DPS checks than others. Sometimes you really don't need to squeeze THAT much blood from the stone. No one is saying that all DPS are truly created equally, but the question is are fights significantly harder with one setup over another. The only time I really see that is when you stack melee, which by the way is the only possible justification I feel exists for some DPS to do more than others. Melee SHOULD have a higher potential than ranged because of all the nasty things associated with being melee.

 

To your earlier point of dummy DPS parses only measuring sustained damage on bosses, I am struggling to remember any fights that don't have long stretches of DPS. The ramp up time for Vigilance Guardians, for example, is about 15 seconds. And 90% of all fights give you at least 15 second windows for DPS. I don't see the benefit of taking Focus over that for the rare exceptions.

 

Ramp up time for Vig Guardian is way lower than 15 seconds O.o. Anyway his point isn't that sustained damage isn't important, but there's no denying that many fights currently care way more about your ability to deliver very high DPS in a 30 second to 1 minute window rather than your ability to maintain high DPS for 6-10 minutes. The distinction is very important. That being said, I also agree that outside of high AoE situations, it's better to take Vig over Focus for Guardian DPS.

 

Now that isn't to say that sustained isn't important. KBN himself has admitted that as nice as Infil Burst is, its sustained is still too low to justify it. Their sustained DPS should arguably be lower for such awesome burst potential, but not THAT much lower.

 

This is all just PVE of course. In PVP burst is absolute king.

 

Why is it complete ********? The fact is that a Marauder/Sentinel or a Sniper/Gunslinger has only the utility abilities of the AC and their DPS. Every other class has their own utility abilities AND the ability to off-heal/off-tank in a bad situation which in-and-of-itself makes them more desirable. If all DPS were truly and completely equalized there would be no reason for a Pure DPS class in an Operation simply because under no circumstance is their utility greater than being able to temporarily fill in for a Healer or Tank. All of the max level toons listed in my signature are in HMs frequently (and NiM when my work schedule permits) and I fill all possible roles on all of them, so don't mistake me for a Marauder who loves his pretty big numbers and is so terrified someone will outdps me. I *truly* believe that Hybrid ACs should be slightly lower for the same reason that Rage/Focus should have lower single-target DPS than Annihilation/Watchman and Carnage/Combat: If it were equalized you would remove any need for the others.

 

You're entitled to your belief but you are wrong. A DPS MUST be able to justify their spot in the raid solely on their ability to do damage. If the boss can't do down because you couldn't output the damage, then your utility is worthless. Once you can down the boss utility definitely matters, but you always act like snipers and maras don't have very good, and unique, utility. Inspiration (Sent), Transcendence (Sent, useful for only some fights), raid heals (watchman sent), baseline root (sniper, only useful in like one fight), armor break(sniper), and the big raid shield (sniper) are all incredibly useful utility. Indeed, whatever you might want to say about off heals or off taunts, the "pure" DPS classes' utility is consistently better overall, and more importantly is unique. That is what's supposed to offset other classes' ability to offheal or off tank. Not their damage. If they DIDN'T have that utility I'd agree with you, but they do.

 

Your comparison to focus is truly apples and oranges for that reason. Again, if Snipers and Maras had no utility of their own you'd have a point, but they have very good utility. In fact they have very good utility that you actually PLAN on using and fit into your strategy, rather than things you have on your bars "just in case". The only non-sniper non-mara utility I ever PLAN on needing, rather than having just in case, are in rotation armor breaks, and mezzes for trash pulls.

 

For those reasons, no, pure DPS classes should not inherently do significantly more damage than the so-called "hybrid" DPS classes.

Edit: As to the idea that there is such a thing as a "full dps" spec for the "hybrid" ACs, does that mean you have never put points into a tank/heal tree? I know for Sorc/Sages, Merc/Mandos, Jugg/Guards, Sin/Shads, PT/VGs, and Op/Scoun its very helpful to put at least a few points in their respective tank/heal tree. Unless you are putting 0 points in the tank/heal tree then you're not "full dps".

 

You have to know how dumb an argument that is. You put points in the tank/healing tree because there are very good DPS talents in the first tier. I can't think of any class which specs DPS but puts points in a tank or healing tree specifically to make them tank or heal better.

 

I have personally successfully (meaning the boss went down, not necessarily that I survived) Vengeance tanked, Arsenal Healed, and Lightning healed HM Op bosses. Whether or not the healing/tanking abilities are in your rotation, you have them and *should* use them when poop hits the fan just as a Marauder should use Undying Rage or a Sniper should use Sniper Shield. Heck I've even done *strategies* that use hybrid classes' innate off-specs to down bosses. How is that not utility?

 

Please detail those strategies for me. Then also detail how the boss would not have been just as downable with a pure DPS class without the ability to off tank or off heal. Utility only when crap hits the fan is nice, but utility that is useful whether the crap hits the fan or not is better. If anything, classes that can off-heal or off-tank should do more damage just because their utility will not be used as a group grows more comfortable with a boss, whereas I will always call for an inspiration at the right time whether the crap hits the fan or not.

 

I have seen *a lot* of people claim that on this fight or on that fight you absolutely need to bring only this class or only that class or that this class is mathematically impossible to do that fight with and its simply not true. There is currently no benefit to stacking any single class because of the way each ACs utility plays off of each others. The only class that this is not entirely true for at the moment is Shadow/Assassin DPS because frankly unless the player is of an amazing calibre, they will not come anywhere near even mediocre players of other classes and *that* is unbalanced. Mercenary/Commando Arsenal/Gunnery and Sorcerer/Sage Madness/Balance resource management is pretty broken as well, to be honest (not to mention Pyrotech/Assault). As are the true DPS specs of Powertech/Vanguard. I don't have an Operative/Scoundrel so I can't speak to how they are doing but they put up decent numbers (I believe I've *heard* that Concealment/Scrapper isn't all that great?). Those are all things that need to be fixed, yes, but save for Shadow/Assassins there is no "skill requirement" to make the class competitive.

 

I am in pretty much full agreement with this, and I feel that need to be stated. Careful though, you just admitted that a shadows ability to off tank isn't good enough to off set their inherently lower DPS. The other DPS classes honestly probably would do a lot better simply by fixing their resource management to not be as tight. I'd also mention that Lightning Sorc and Gunnery Commando (moreso lightning sorc) suffer quite annoyingly from pushback which should also be fixed. Like I said though, everything but shadow is actually almost there. Just minor QoL stuff.

 

I would even admit that if a Marauder/Sentinel or Sniper/Gunslinger in 69 gear could out DPS on a boss a hybrid DPS in 72/75 gear that *that* was broken (assuming players of equal skill) because the gap between the classes should not be *that* large. And its not! I have a Sorcerer friend who is in mostly 75s with some 72s mixed-in and she absolutely spanks my mostly 72 with some 69s mixed in Marauder. And that makes sense because she is in *significantly* better gear than me, but that wasn't always the case: back before she started raiding on that character and her Sorcerer and my Marauder were evenly geared, I kicked *her* butt. Now that she has better gear, the scales have shifted even though there hasn't been any change in player skill or class, simply in gear. That *is* the definition of class balance.

 

What if I told you that my 69 (in some cases 66) geared sniper out DPSed my BiS 72 geared commando? Also what happens if your mara gets 75s and absolutely spanks her sorc again? Also you can't honestly tell me that she hasn't almost surely gotten better.

 

Here though, we get to one of the few utilities that actually matter: Range. Ranged DPS should have a slightly (very slightly) lower damage potential because of how much benefit you bring a raid just being able to DPS from 30-35 meters.

 

I'm really baffled as to why people think that a class that can effectively prevent a wipe simply by using abilities not in their normal rotation would not be more valuable than a class that cannot. Its insane.

 

You act like Inspirations ability to help burn through soft enrages or the ballistic dampner's ability to help a raid WEATHER a soft enrage isn't unable to prevent a wipe. You also act like just because once in a blue moon off heals CAN prevent a wipe means they always will. There is a very VERY small window indeed where a mistake is both wipe inducing AND saveable from off heals or off taunts. Often if a wipe happens, it's gonna happen no matter what off heals go out. Not only that but off heals are almost universally resource heavy, lack serious potency, and if they are needed too much are just as likely to cause a wipe because the off healers have run themselves dry. This is especially true for gunnery commandos and balance sages who by your own admission are already resource starved at times just from DPSing.

 

Yes I've off healed and gotten a recovery on my commando. I've also off healed on my commando and still had a wipe happen. I've ALSO had many MANY fights where it was never necessary to throw an off heal at all. If we have a sent though, I never have a fight where I DON'T call for an inspire.

 

TL;DR:

As to the question of why would you bring marauders and snipers to raids if everyone did equal dps? The answer is simple. You'd bring them because they offer a different kind of raid utility, and MORE importantly, because people in your raid enjoy playing those classes.

 

Marauders and snipers have more raid utility abilities than "hybrid" specs, precisely because they do not have the utility brought by off-heals and off-tanking. The balance is utility for utility, not utility for damage.

Edited by ArchangelLBC
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You're entitled to your belief but you are wrong. A DPS MUST be able to justify their spot in the raid solely on their ability to do damage. If the boss can't do down because you couldn't output the damage, then your utility is worthless. Once you can down the boss utility definitely matters, but you always act like snipers and maras don't have very good, and unique, utility. Inspiration (Sent), Transcendence (Sent, useful for only some fights), raid heals (watchman sent), baseline root (sniper, only useful in like one fight), armor break(sniper), and the big raid shield (sniper) are all incredibly useful utility. Indeed, whatever you might want to say about off heals or off taunts, the "pure" DPS classes' utility is consistently better overall, and more importantly is unique. That is what's supposed to offset other classes' ability to offheal or off tank. Not their damage. If they DIDN'T have that utility I'd agree with you, but they do.

 

Your argument falls down simply based on the fact that (ignoring shadow/sin DPS which I will get to in a bit) there is no fight that even vaguely requires the DPS put out by a Pure DPS class. The biggest DPS check right now is NiM Dread Guard and every class that can DPS can easily (still ignoring shadow/sin) put out the 2400 DPS required. Most are significantly above that. Inspiration/BT, as pointed out by KBN, is actually MASSIVELY over-rated in terms of its actual contribution. Trans/Pred? In order to use that we have to build 30 stacks of fury and then waste them for raid utility; it is actually very bad for our DPS to not Berserk/Zen on CD is all specs (which by the way, if we aren't doing in Watchman/Anni, we're not providing the raid heals, which are minuscule). Snipers Armor debuff can be brought by yourself and Guardian/Juggs, so that is pretty redundant and irrelevant since so many other classes can bring the debuff. I have never even partly, slightly, maybe argued that Marauder's CDs aren't very useful but I do think people need to understand that aside from Force Camo (which is one of the best threat drop mechanics in the game; Threat drop, Damage Reduction, Invis, and speed buff) they all come at a heavy price. Inspiration/BT prevents ourselves and other Marauders from building Fury which is a big DPS loss because it delays our next Berserk/Zen. Its a useful trade-off though because it boosts everyone's DPS at the expense of some of our own personal DPS. Predation has extremely limited utility at the expense of wasting a minute building fury, spending it to speed every one up and then having to build it again. Undying Rage gives us effectively 5 seconds of immunity at the expense of 50% of our health, great trade-off assuming you are going to get healed right back up but unless you are using it to cheese a mechanic, chances are you aren't going to get the heals meaning you are going to die when it ends. Its a delay.

 

Your comparison to focus is truly apples and oranges for that reason. Again, if Snipers and Maras had no utility of their own you'd have a point, but they have very good utility. In fact they have very good utility that you actually PLAN on using and fit into your strategy, rather than things you have on your bars "just in case". The only non-sniper non-mara utility I ever PLAN on needing, rather than having just in case, are in rotation armor breaks, and mezzes for trash pulls.

 

As stated above, your assumption that I was even beginning to state that Sniper/Mara utility has no utility is false. They have decent utility but, aside from Sniper Shield, it either comes at a cost or is redundant. Here is a better example: If you were buying a car and could buy one that was really fast or one that was just as fast and had great fuel economy, why would you ever buy the one that didn't have great fuel economy? Snipers and Maras have utility but it is NOT in ANY WAY enough to truly change the outcome of a raid, whereas Hybrid DPS classes CAN. Plain and simple.

 

 

You have to know how dumb an argument that is. You put points in the tank/healing tree because there are very good DPS talents in the first tier. I can't think of any class which specs DPS but puts points in a tank or healing tree specifically to make them tank or heal better.

 

Now you're just being ridiculous. You cut out the next two words of the quote just to make it seem like I was an idiot.

 

Facetiousness aside

Treating serious issues with deliberately inappropriate humor

 

If anything, classes that can off-heal or off-tank should do more damage just because their utility will not be used as a group grows more comfortable with a boss, whereas I will always call for an inspiration at the right time whether the crap hits the fan or not.

 

Why would we be arguing about non-progression raiding? There is no reason to be even slightly worried about DPS differences in non-progression raiding so your point about the drop-off of utility is irrelevant. Again, Sniper/Mara utility cannot affect the outcome of a raid. It can increase QoL and nothing more.

 

Careful though, you just admitted that a shadows ability to off tank isn't good enough to off set their inherently lower DPS.

 

I admitted that for the simple fact that its true. Shadow DPS is in a bad place and I have said that freely in multiple places.

 

What if I told you that my 69 (in some cases 66) geared sniper out DPSed my BiS 72 geared commando?

 

I would seriously and honestly question whether or not you should be playing your commando. Unless you are talking about purely fluff AoE damage, in which case your point is irrelevant and simply there to be argumentative.

 

Also what happens if your mara gets 75s and absolutely spanks her sorc again? Also you can't honestly tell me that she hasn't almost surely gotten better.

 

I'm confused what your point here is. I specifically stated that pure DPS should do better DPS so if our gear were equal then I absolutely believe I should do more DPS. She agrees. Your point here is irrelevant. Also, I can absolutely assure you the increase in skill is irrelevant. The only reason she has better gear than me is that my work schedule prevents me from raiding consistently and I refuse to take gear from regular raiders. When I am available I raid with her group which invalidates the skill argument.

 

You act like Inspirations ability to help burn through soft enrages or the ballistic dampner's ability to help a raid WEATHER a soft enrage isn't unable to prevent a wipe. You also act like just because once in a blue moon off heals CAN prevent a wipe means they always will. There is a very VERY small window indeed where a mistake is both wipe inducing AND saveable from off heals or off taunts. Often if a wipe happens, it's gonna happen no matter what off heals go out. Not only that but off heals are almost universally resource heavy, lack serious potency, and if they are needed too much are just as likely to cause a wipe because the off healers have run themselves dry. This is especially true for gunnery commandos and balance sages who by your own admission are already resource starved at times just from DPSing.

 

Yes I've off healed and gotten a recovery on my commando. I've also off healed on my commando and still had a wipe happen. I've ALSO had many MANY fights where it was never necessary to throw an off heal at all. If we have a sent though, I never have a fight where I DON'T call for an inspire.

 

First off, lets address the DPS issue: Pure Balance/Maddess does not have resource issues except in PvP where they cannot consistently cast and fully channel Force Lightning. Gunnery/Assault on the other hand, DOES have significant resource issues but only if played incorrectly. If you manage your resources you can and will do great DPS and have enough to throw Kolto Missile/Bomb down once in awhile (something you should be doing anyways).

 

Second, when did I ever state or even insinuate that offtank/heals would always save a raid? I said their ability to do so was more desirable because it is a fact that if poop hits the fan an off healer/tank will be able to do more than a shield or a BT/Inspiration. Your entire argument is based around the fallacy that I was somehow claiming that having offheal/tank is an autowin which is simply ridiculous.

 

Further the argument that BW has stated all DPS should be equal is flat out wrong. They have stated that they should be within 5% of each other. Maybe all of you are so butthurt because you wrongly assume that I am arguing for a 10% or greater difference. In general, all dps classes can put out at least 2900 DPS and putting aside fluff damage Snipers/Maras are putting out 3100. Thats JUST over 5%. If you really think thats unfair then absolutely buff the other classes so they can hit 2945 because that is 5%.

 

If you are looking at dummy parses and seeing the huge numbers and NOT looking into it to see whether that is single-target, non-buffed (meaning not affected by outside mechanics like the damage boost on Kephess) then you simply should not be adding to the discussion because people who are just worried about whether or not they are getting bigger numbers than other people are what is and has always been wrong with MMOs. The only thing I truly care about in a raid is whether or not the boss goes down. DPS meters are great for inspiring friendly competition as well as allowing a player to see where they can improve. This and the threads like it end up being filled with people who just want to see bigger numbers and are angry that another class hits harder than them not because of any affect that has on killing bosses but rather on their own ego.

Edited by kennethdale
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Your argument falls down simply based on the fact that (ignoring shadow/sin DPS which I will get to in a bit) there is no fight that even vaguely requires the DPS put out by a Pure DPS class. The biggest DPS check right now is NiM Dread Guard and every class that can DPS can easily (still ignoring shadow/sin) put out the 2400 DPS required. Most are significantly above that. Inspiration/BT, as pointed out by KBN, is actually MASSIVELY over-rated in terms of its actual contribution. Trans/Pred? In order to use that we have to build 30 stacks of fury and then waste them for raid utility; it is actually very bad for our DPS to not Berserk/Zen on CD is all specs (which by the way, if we aren't doing in Watchman/Anni, we're not providing the raid heals, which are minuscule). Snipers Armor debuff can be brought by yourself and Guardian/Juggs, so that is pretty redundant and irrelevant since so many other classes can bring the debuff. I have never even partly, slightly, maybe argued that Marauder's CDs aren't very useful but I do think people need to understand that aside from Force Camo (which is one of the best threat drop mechanics in the game; Threat drop, Damage Reduction, Invis, and speed buff) they all come at a heavy price. Inspiration/BT prevents ourselves and other Marauders from building Fury which is a big DPS loss because it delays our next Berserk/Zen. Its a useful trade-off though because it boosts everyone's DPS at the expense of some of our own personal DPS. Predation has extremely limited utility at the expense of wasting a minute building fury, spending it to speed every one up and then having to build it again. Undying Rage gives us effectively 5 seconds of immunity at the expense of 50% of our health, great trade-off assuming you are going to get healed right back up but unless you are using it to cheese a mechanic, chances are you aren't going to get the heals meaning you are going to die when it ends. Its a delay.

 

First off, KBN said that Inspiration's contribution to raid DPS over the while fight was negligible. As I've pointed out before though, Inspiration's true benefit is to significantly increase raid DPS during burn phases. These phases are very non-trivial on several fights. Increasing everyone's DPS by 15% during one of those phases CAN make the difference between a wipe and a clear, especially in progression. I mean lets face it, beating a third surging chain on DG pre-nerf was very much a make or break on meeting that DPS check, and Inspire could mean the difference between meeting that check or not meeting that check, and sniper's ability to cheese those big lightning field hits was also pretty significant. Groups did it without inspire but you can't tell me they didn't have to work harder. For that matter groups did it without requiring off heals.

 

Second of all there should NEVER be such a disparity in sniper and mara DPS and everyone else, and should NEVER be a fight which would require that DPS. That's the whole point. The second those two things happen classes will get pushed out of DPS roles. We already see it happening with shadow DPS. You seem to be arguing for that disparity to exist between mara and sniper and everyone else. Maybe that isn't what your real point is, but it's the point you keep communicating. Please clarify if that's what you want because if it is then you are the very mara fanboy you think everyone is accusing you of.

 

Finally, your complaints about the costs of your mara utility do not affect me. First, because what the hell do you think off heals cost? Time and resources, usually a non trivial amount of time and resources. Secondly, because Sentinels were told that centering building will no longer be locked out by Inspires and Transcendence, so even the small cost you currently endure will no longer be required. Additionally, knocking situational utility because it's situational is kind of cutting the throat of your own argument isn't it? I mean what's more situational than off heals or off taunts? Again I can think of SEVERAL fights where transcendence was super helpful. Inspire kind of speaks for itself. The sniper shield costs absolutely nothing, and the armor debuff from sniper is definitely non-trivial, especially in an 8 man ops group. Guardian tanks aren't always on the main raid target to apply theirs you know.

 

As stated above, your assumption that I was even beginning to state that Sniper/Mara utility has no utility is false. They have decent utility but, aside from Sniper Shield, it either comes at a cost or is redundant. Here is a better example: If you were buying a car and could buy one that was really fast or one that was just as fast and had great fuel economy, why would you ever buy the one that didn't have great fuel economy? Snipers and Maras have utility but it is NOT in ANY WAY enough to truly change the outcome of a raid, whereas Hybrid DPS classes CAN. Plain and simple.

 

 

Again, YOU seem to be acting like off heals have no cost, and by definition off heals are redundant. Your example is also grossly misrepresentative. First of all because you guys have good fuel economy as well. That's my whole point. The very fact that we can disagree so much on the relative utility by the way should make it clear to you that it ISN'T as cut and dried as you might think. Both off heals, inspires, and the sniper shield can all change the outcome of a pull. I maintain that you explicitly plan on using the inspires and shield, whereas you mostly just use the off heals for a crutch.

 

Now you're just being ridiculous. You cut out the next two words of the quote just to make it seem like I was an idiot.

 

Those next two words proved that you knew how absolutely dumb that argument was.

 

 

 

 

Why would we be arguing about non-progression raiding? There is no reason to be even slightly worried about DPS differences in non-progression raiding so your point about the drop-off of utility is irrelevant. Again, Sniper/Mara utility cannot affect the outcome of a raid. It can increase QoL and nothing more.

 

Because people don't grow more comfortable with a boss during progression? Indeed for the truly hard fights, a clear DEPENDS on people becoming comfortable and capable of maximizing their performance, and the more comfortable people get the less necessary those off heals are. Indeed I've seen, I'm sure you've seen, progression nights where the first pull is a horrendous wipe, and the final kill is close to text book perfect, just because people were able to adjust. Yes I also know that sometimes the progression kill is super dirty and accomplished with one or two people left standing. Still, as I pointed out above, lets not seriously pretend that a well timed Inspire or a well placed sniper shield can't make the difference between a kill and wipe. That's pretty disingenuous of you. You may think it isn't because once you have a fight on farm you're still using those inspires, even though you could beat the boss without it, but that's kind of my point on sniper/mara utility. On progression fights they CAN make the difference between a wipe and a kill. Maybe not in super flashy ways like off heals, but we both know they can make that difference. And then once you don't need them, they provide that QoL buff, so like I said, they're pretty much always useful.

 

I admitted that for the simple fact that its true. Shadow DPS is in a bad place and I have said that freely in multiple places.

 

Right. As I said, from the way you defend this issue, one would think you honestly prefer that disparity between snipers/maras and everyone else. This statement is why I don't necessarily think that's the case, but until you said it I admit I would have cherished my doubts. You notice though that I'm also not asking for super serious buffs to classes. QoL stuff like ammo management for gunnery commando isn't gonna suddenly make snipers irrelevant.

 

I would seriously and honestly question whether or not you should be playing your commando. Unless you are talking about purely fluff AoE damage, in which case your point is irrelevant and simply there to be argumentative.

 

I was talking about the ops dummy. I couldn't honestly believe it either, but my sniper best is right on with my commando best, and my sniper can do it more consistently. The reason is that pushing your energy to the absolute max on marksman sniper results in better than average DPS whereas pushing your ammo to the max on gunnery commando is pretty much what's required to get competitive DPS.

 

But hey question whether or not I should be playing my commando. I've never claimed to be particularly good, but if I'm not a good player I'm the same not a good player on both classes. There's no honestly better way to compare classes than to compare them with the same person behind the controls. Of course playstyle comes into it (I may be a bad commando but I'm a horrendous sentinel), but both are turret specs.

 

I'm confused what your point here is. I specifically stated that pure DPS should do better DPS so if our gear were equal then I absolutely believe I should do more DPS. She agrees. Your point here is irrelevant. Also, I can absolutely assure you the increase in skill is irrelevant. The only reason she has better gear than me is that my work schedule prevents me from raiding consistently and I refuse to take gear from regular raiders. When I am available I raid with her group which invalidates the skill argument.

 

The skill argument was down to asking whether her closing the gap is an example of just getting better gear or also HER getting better. Of course I should also ask what you mean by "kicked her butt". For instance if you were out DPSing her by 200-300 DPS when you were both equally geared, is that because the disparity in sorc and mara is really that large, or if in the midst of that nightmare raiding your sorc friend was able to up her game. After all, you did bring skill into it, so it's a valid thing to consider since you're using this as an example. The real test will be if you still kick her butt when you're equally geared. What does that look like to you in terms of DPS? A solid 150 DPS ahead? A solid 300 DPS ahead? The former is acceptable since she's ranged and you're melee, but the latter isn't acceptable at all. My real point was that this example needs more information if we want to seriously consider it for this discussion.

 

 

First off, lets address the DPS issue: Pure Balance/Maddess does not have resource issues except in PvP where they cannot consistently cast and fully channel Force Lightning. Gunnery/Assault on the other hand, DOES have significant resource issues but only if played incorrectly. If you manage your resources you can and will do great DPS and have enough to throw Kolto Missile/Bomb down once in awhile (something you should be doing anyways).

 

I don't play pure balance so I was going off what you seemed to be saying so that's my bad. Off topic somewhat, but the hybrid utility (off heals and taunts) would be more of a point in PVP where those have much more of an impact, but even there sniper/mara have their own unique utility with the Trauma debuff, so again that's an example of getting their own unique utility to balance out their lack of heals or taunts. Takes a team to properly utilize that though.

 

The resource issue isn't just a L2P issue. Ammo management is TIGHT if you wanna push that DPS. And if you don't need the kolto bomb you shouldn't throw it. You're there to do DPS. If it is needed then you should throw it. Knowing the difference is pretty important, but the odd kolto bomb is also not really what's saving a raid. Before Kolto bomb the situation was even worse though. If you have to stop and actually cast MP or AMP that's a huge DPS loss and resource cost.

 

Second, when did I ever state or even insinuate that offtank/heals would always save a raid? I said their ability to do so was more desirable because it is a fact that if poop hits the fan an off healer/tank will be able to do more than a shield or a BT/Inspiration. Your entire argument is based around the fallacy that I was somehow claiming that having offheal/tank is an autowin which is simply ridiculous.

 

Your argument IS that off chance that you can save the raid with off heals and taunts is so good that those classes deserve to do noticeably less DPS. That begs the question of how often you can actually save a wipe. Your argument is also based on the fallacy that a shield or BT/Inspiration can't pull a raid out of the fire (there are definitely situations where they can), and ignores the fact that a sniper shield, by significantly helping the healers during a high raid DPS situation, or an inspire, by pushing everyone through a soft enrage or early high damage burn phase, can prevent the poop from ever hitting the fan in the first place.

 

My argument is that the number of times a wipe is actually recoverable through off heals and taunts as a percentage of wipe inducing incidents is not significant enough completely overshadow the always useful utility of the shield and inspire to the point that those classes should also get significantly higher damage. They don't have to be an autowin for them to be significant enough, but they have to be able to recover from a wipe a significant enough number of times, and I don't think their recovery ability is significant enough.

 

Even if their utility was exactly as good as inspire and the shield, that just means that for that reason the damage should be more or less the same.

 

Further the argument that BW has stated all DPS should be equal is flat out wrong. They have stated that they should be within 5% of each other. Maybe all of you are so butthurt because you wrongly assume that I am arguing for a 10% or greater difference. In general, all dps classes can put out at least 2900 DPS and putting aside fluff damage Snipers/Maras are putting out 3100. Thats JUST over 5%. If you really think thats unfair then absolutely buff the other classes so they can hit 2945 because that is 5%.

 

That damage difference is almost 7%. That's missing their window by a pretty wide margin actually. Additionally usability also comes into it. You'll notice that I admitted that most classes are in need of QoL buffs over straight damage buffs. The top members of each class are hitting those numbers, but the drop off for commando or sorc, or God help us all shadow, is incredibly significant. Also when they said classes should be within 5%, why do you automatically assume that snipers and maras deserve to be at the top of that window? I don't think they actually should be. I think melee should be at the top of that range, and ranged on the lower simply because of range granting so much utility, and otherwise I see no other compelling reason other than random luck over who should actually be at the top end. Certainly the "pure DPS" classes don't seem to me to have a compelling reason to have the undisputed top spot.

 

Also minor point but in your example the top end is still 5.3% higher than your lower end. Still closer. Again though, if I'm honest I'd just like it to be easier for people to reach their potential.

 

If you are looking at dummy parses and seeing the huge numbers and NOT looking into it to see whether that is single-target, non-buffed (meaning not affected by outside mechanics like the damage boost on Kephess) then you simply should not be adding to the discussion because people who are just worried about whether or not they are getting bigger numbers than other people are what is and has always been wrong with MMOs. The only thing I truly care about in a raid is whether or not the boss goes down. DPS meters are great for inspiring friendly competition as well as allowing a player to see where they can improve. This and the threads like it end up being filled with people who just want to see bigger numbers and are angry that another class hits harder than them not because of any affect that has on killing bosses but rather on their own ego.

 

If you aren't interested in your own ego then why do you care if other people do the same damage as sniper and mara? :rolleyes:

Edited by ArchangelLBC
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Ok, rather than sniping at each other lets try and clarify what our viewpoints are and where we disagree because it seems to me that we actually aren't that opposed.

 

These are my opinions and beliefs:

 

1) My best geared character is my Marauder who I usually play as Annihilation. I also frequently play Corruption, Lightning, and hybrid on my Sorcerer; Arsenal and Bodyguard on my Mercenary; and Immortal and Vegeance on my Juggernaut. I am currently leveling an Assassin who is primarily being used for PvP at the moment in Deception. I play all of these characters very frequently in Operations and will point out that only one of them is a "Pure" DPS class and even on that character I do not play the "big burst" spec. I choose to play the sustained but slightly lower DPS spec because of the utility it brings to the raid in the form of approximately 300 HPS.

 

2) There *should* be a disparity between pure DPS classes and hybrid DPS classes.

 

3) If there were exact equality between all DPS, high-end progression raids would ultimately forego pure DPS for many fights simply because there are not many situations wherein BT or Shield will well and truly affect the outcome of an encounter whereas having an offheal/offtank frequently will.

 

4) The disparity should be within the already claimed 5% margin (eg: if Pure DPS is pulling 1000 DPS, Hybrid should be at 950)

 

5) Shadow/Sin DPS is in a very bad place at the moment and needs to be seriously re-evaluated. Also Mercenary/Commando resource management, while completely functional, penalizes the player for making mistakes too harshly in terms of those resources and the affect it is has their ability to function in their role. Also Vig/Veng Guard/Juggs have severe issues with both their threat drop being extremely expensive and the RNG involved with the Rampage proc.

 

Now, it seems to me that you are not so much against the disparity but more against the current severity of the disparity. My biggest concern is that bosses die but I honestly and truly am afraid that if there were absolute parity between classes that Marauders and Snipers would be significantly less desirable.

Edited by kennethdale
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I disagree with 2 and 3 there. I do not think that marauder/sniper utility is less than that brought by an off heal or an off taunt, and thus do not think they should be given additional damage in exchange for utility that is not missing.

 

The 5% figure is a goal of variance across all classes, not an intended variance between 2 classes and everyone else.

 

Other than a couple outliers, I'm overall happy with the current state of balance in the game. Could it be better? Sure. Could it be worse? Absolutely.

 

My main disagreement is with the idea that there should be a "hybrid tax" on classes just because they have the option of playing multiple roles.

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Ok, rather than sniping at each other lets try and clarify what our viewpoints are and where we disagree because it seems to me that we actually aren't that opposed.

 

An excellent idea! Actually, I suspect the same thing, because twice in as many days you've said things in discussions I've been part of that made it clear that our positions were much closer than our rhetoric might have suggested.

 

These are my opinions and beliefs:

 

1) My best geared character is my Marauder who I usually play as Annihilation. I also frequently play Corruption, Lightning, and hybrid on my Sorcerer; Arsenal and Bodyguard on my Mercenary; and Immortal and Vegeance on my Juggernaut. I am currently leveling an Assassin who is primarily being used for PvP at the moment in Deception. I play all of these characters very frequently in Operations and will point out that only one of them is a "Pure" DPS class and even on that character I do not play the "big burst" spec. I choose to play the sustained but slightly lower DPS spec because of the utility it brings to the raid in the form of approximately 300 HPS.

 

Fair enough. My best geared character by far is my Gunnery commando. I also have a Kinetic Combat Shadow who I've used to tank both operations through Hard Mode (I'm more a backup tank so rarely am I pulled in for progression for that), a sharpshooter gunslinger that I'm using currently as we gear out people, though I'm also proficient in DF and Hybrid, a Marksman Sniper that I use to raid imp side, a sentinel that I've dabbled in all three specs with in ops, though I rarely bring her, and am currently leveling a Jugg for imp tanking and DPS, and a PT for imp tanking. I'll level scoundrel or operative next just for scamper/exfiltrate =)

 

2) There *should* be a disparity between pure DPS classes and hybrid DPS classes.

 

Obviously I disagree. Though if the 5% upper limit is adhered too, then I can live with that since perfect balance is probably impossible. 7% is too much in my opinion. I am admittedly more comfortable with the disparity existing more between ranged and melee because as I often say, ranged is such a huge utility all its own, while melee is a liability all its own. Even then though, the 5% needs to be seen as an absolute upper limit, not the goal we work our way down to.

 

Additionally, I also believe that 5% should exist between average players. Some classes are easy to attain most of their damage potential or even leave room for creative ways to up their damage (SS Slinger is a prime example), whereas some require absolute perfect play to be competitive (shadow DPS is the most glaring one).

 

3) If there were exact equality between all DPS, high-end progression raids would ultimately forego pure DPS for many fights simply because there are not many situations wherein BT or Shield will well and truly affect the outcome of an encounter whereas having an offheal/offtank frequently will.

 

As I raid leader I disagree with that greatly. Arguably we already see how that isn't true when you look at the various melee DPS. Now admittedly, there is the perception that maras do more, but ask most raid leaders who aren't unduly prejudiced and they'll tell you that the real reason you bring maras is for bloodthirst. Looking at the actual numbers, Operative is putting up incredibly competitive numbers, and before 2.0 VGs were putting up absolutely sick damage. Melee DPS damage is all actually super close right now. But maras are still brought first because of Bloodthirst, whereas I don't know of anyone bringing operatives for any other reason than the player behind the controls. No one I know of is seriously bringing operative DPS because of their off heals.

 

Now again, that may simply be due to its perceived utility over its actual utility in a lot of cases, but I maintain that it's absolutely crucial during certain burn phases.

 

Obviously, I see things like inspire and the shield being very important to progression, especially when used at the right moment. This has historically been true, and I don't see any reason to think it won't be true in future. To my mind the utility of these classes is just as good as off heals, and even better depending on how you look at it.

 

For this reason, I don't think they should necessarily have an obvious DPS advantage as the situational utility brought by off heals and off taunts is more than off set in my mind by the utility brought by inspiration and the shield. Especially since raid leaders rarely form a group specifically to take advantage of off heals or off taunts. Often those are thing you use because it's there, but any raid leader worth their salt will tell you that if they had their preferences they'd have an inspire and a shield.

 

4) The disparity should be within the already claimed 5% margin (eg: if Pure DPS is pulling 1000 DPS, Hybrid should be at 950)

 

Whatever disparity exists between whoever I agree with this. Except the 5% should be based on the lower number. So if a lower parsing DPS was parsing 950, the top parsing DPS should be parsing 997.5 DPS (950 x 1.05). That may not really be that big of a deal, but the smaller disparity the better in my opinion. Honestly they should shoot for closer to 2.5% difference, with a tolerance of +/- 2.5%, and that's even assuming we accept that such a disparity should be built in.

 

I think that, in general, they should shoot for absolute parity, because actual implementation will always fall short of that, so that once they're within 5% they figure it's close enough for government work. If they shoot for 5% the disparity is going to be bigger at some point.

 

5) Shadow/Sin DPS is in a very bad place at the moment and needs to be seriously re-evaluated. Also Mercenary/Commando resource management, while completely functional, penalizes the player for making mistakes too harshly in terms of those resources and the affect it is has their ability to function in their role. Also Vig/Veng Guard/Juggs have severe issues with both their threat drop being extremely expensive and the RNG involved with the Rampage proc.

 

I agree with this (I find Gunnery commando also suffers a tad from Rng on Curtain of Fire procs. Think that's barrage for you). In general, Shadow DPS needs a pretty huge overhaul, and the other "hybrid" classes need some QoL tweaks to make meeting their potential easier without necessarily upping that potential to any large degree. I believe that those changes alone, if done properly, would probably do enough to smooth the most serious disparities and bring everyone closer to that 5% window.

 

Now, it seems to me that you are not so much against the disparity but more against the current severity of the disparity. My biggest concern is that bosses die but I honestly and truly am afraid that if there were absolute parity between classes that Marauders and Snipers would be significantly less desirable.

 

I think it's accurate to say I'm more against the current severity we're seeing. As I said above, I believe that an actual disparity will exist naturally even if they devs aim for absolute parity, and because of this, building in a disparity on purpose sems superfluous.

 

Also, I want to reiterate that as a raid leader, I can't see there ever being a time when marauders and snipers AREN'T desirable in a world where we have parity. I don't have that fear at all lol.

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Additionally, I also believe that 5% should exist between average players. Some classes are easy to attain most of their damage potential or even leave room for creative ways to up their damage (SS Slinger is a prime example), whereas some require absolute perfect play to be competitive (shadow DPS is the most glaring one).

 

You are 100% correct. What some players are capable of doing is absolutely ridiculous and most will never be accomplish similar feats.

 

Also, I want to reiterate that as a raid leader, I can't see there ever being a time when marauders and snipers AREN'T desirable in a world where we have parity. I don't have that fear at all lol.

 

Perhaps our difference in opinion comes from our difference in backgrounds; I am still fairly new to SW:tOR (I have only been playing since February/March) but my main MMO background comes from the 6 years I spent in WoW, 3 of which were in extremely high-end raiding guilds. I have seen the reality of hybrid DPS brining more utility than pure leading to those players, no matter the skill, being benched. The best example of the two sides of the coin are both from The Burning Crusade: Shadow Priests and Shamans.

 

Shadow Priest DPS was immensely complex and completely impotent. Their only saving grace was that through DPS they restored mana and health and because of this they became a necessity in high-end raids simply to keep healer's mana pools up. Shamans on the other hand (Restoration, Enhancement, and Elemental) were all fairly decent with the best being Restoration. Yet they also brought Bloodlust which in end-game content became vital to progression. In spite of being slightly less potent than Holy Priests at AoE healing, Shamans began to usurp raid spots (or Paladins if there were more of them) simply because without Bloodlust, there were bosses that just could not be downed.

 

Now, that said there is no comparable utility to that in SW:tOR and as of yet there is no fight that requires that level of Min/Maxing but my fear comes form a reality I have seen happen. That is why I get a bit heated when I see claims of this happening in SW:tOR because it has not.

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