The argument about the fleet has never been about any "absolute" number. It's the relative number, controlled for variables, between points in time...

You cannot control for variables.. because they are largely subjective though. Like some people understanding that players are more spread out now as they have more options than to park on fleet and spam LFG... yet other players refusing to consider this a possibility. Like some people understand that when Odessen released.. people who could not wait to abandon Fleet.. finally had a way to do so.... yet some refuse to even consider this variable. Like when Strongholds and guildships released and players suddenly had a lot more options of where to hang out when not out in the field... yet this variable is denied by some. It goes on and on..... subjective this, subjective that... it never ends.

The only party that actually knows real player activity levels is the studio. They know how many players play, how often they play, what they play (and do not play), and they have actual trend data based on actual data (as opposed to player conducted wind checks). We as players are simply playing an endless game of opinion-Ping-Pong... which usually get wrapped around the axle when someone swings and starts making absolute statements that are absent objective supporting fact.

I think we all pretty well know that player populations are down notably from that surge we had when 4.0 released and the studio had to scramble to up the capacity of the more popular servers... because of login queues suddenly becoming a problem not seen since launch. I think most reasonable players know that the game is still quite active and that the servers are alive and active. Which is where these discussion always break down because different players have different perceptions/requirements for their MMO game play. Then of course we have the unreasonable player(s) who will have some sort of bad experience on a given day (like abnormally long queue for a group encounter) and rush to the forum and declare it a dead MMO and that all remaining servers have to be merged immediately. And we have a few players on the forum here.. where on any given day.. you cannot tell what tangent they are going to go off on.... only that it can and will happen.

I think what he meant was - if you've never been on the fleet, then you can't be a part of the number used in fleet decline metrics because you weren't part of the original "n". That's how I read it at least.

 

The argument about the fleet has never been about any "absolute" number. It's the relative number, controlled for variables, between points in time...

This thread is about the fleet being the social hub of the game. I was just saying its not for me. I have every right to say so. If he or the Op only want players who agree or who spend lots of time on fleet to post, then it's hardly representative of the players who play. It would be just a one sided thread if that did happen. TUX's often posts imaginary stats based solely on he's opinion. Pretends he represents the majority of players, worse still represents the general public who don't even play the game. Belittles players who don't agree with him by saying they don't have a right to an opinion. while at the same time saying stuff like this-

Quote by TUX 1.

"Who has claimed it was for "everyone"? Nobody. Only you have, in your mistaken understanding of what people are saying."

Which is not what I said at all. I said everyone as in I don't, so if I don't not all do. In other words I was taking about myself not other players. Unlike him I never speak for other players. There is not one F****** thing in he's reply to my post that I even said. If a player like me does not use fleet for a social hub of the game, then it is relevant to the topic " The fleet has been, and always will be, the social hub of SWTOR" While he has in-fact said quotes such as this all taken from this thread,:-

Quote by TUX 2.

"Stop worrying about people trying to pretend it doesn't matter. It does, it reflects the servers health, always has, always will...don't let the deniers and antagonists bother you."

Quote by TUX 3.

"I've replied to the nonsense that fleet numbers are meaningless that's being trolled about...nothing more."

Quote by TUX 4

"I've played this game since beta...Fleet has ALWAYS represented the health of the server."

Then has the nerve to clime I have said everyone, when it clear that the use of everyone in context of my post is taking about ME. as in I don't so not everyone does. Pretty sure he's the one implying that.

Personally I have never considered staying on fleet as an indicator of the health of the game. Even less so since strong holds came out. Everything I need which was once on fleet I can get from my stronghold. Or by other methods such as holo statues as one example. I don't go there for gear even for my level 70 characters.

You cannot control for variables.. because they are largely subjective though.

...

This isn't accurate. You can control for variables. You're misapplying the word "subjective" to my argument. This is exactly how science works. This is exactly how empirical data gathering works. Someone (like me, since I've actually done this as have others) gathers data over time (e.g. time to queue pop, fleet pop, # of instances, etc.), controlling for variables (e.g. time of day, day of week, faction, content changes, etc.) over multiple recordings. Then, controlling for these variables and taking the data gathered, one can look at the pattern and make very credible scientific conclusions from those observations. While less than the gold standard of knowing exactly the data (see below), this is precisely how empirical scientific studies have been done from time immemorial. Current, well-known examples of this type of methodology are the "climate change" studies.

So it wouldn't be "subjective" to say, e.g., "for the past 4 Tuesdays since the release of 5.x at 9pm PST on SS pub fleet, there were about 95-105 players in one instance." That is not at all subjective if those measurements were in fact taken. And thus, one can in fact control for each of the variables in this example. And so, if one says "my last 4 measurements using the same variables, shows fleet population of 65-75 players, therefore it appears that player numbers are down" that would be a perfectly valid, objective, scientifically-sound conclusion (even if not the "gold standard," discussed below).

The only party that actually knows real player activity levels is the studio. They know how many players play, how often they play, what they play (and do not play), and they have actual trend data based on actual data (as opposed to player conducted wind checks). We as players are simply playing an endless game of opinion-Ping-Pong... which usually get wrapped around the axle when someone swings and starts making absolute statements that are absent objective supporting fact. ...

Yes, the "gold standard" is the actual hard data from the studio, which none of us here know. This is true. But that doesn't in any way preclude taking the approach described above to develop "proxies" for this data - in fact, that is why we need the proxies. This is why empirical studies are the proper way to get as close as we can to that data.

Again, you are misapplying "objective supporting fact" at least as it pertains to my argument (see above as well). It is absolutely an objective supporting fact if someone has gathered data such as what I mentioned above repeatedly over time and is using that to support their conclusion. For some of us here, not all, that's what we're doing to varying degrees.

I think we all pretty well know that player populations are down notably from that surge we had when 4.0 released and the studio had to scramble to up the capacity of the more popular servers... because of login queues suddenly becoming a problem not seen since launch. I think most reasonable players know that the game is still quite active and that the servers are alive and active. ...

I could return your argument and note that this is an ironic admission, since we don't "pretty well know" this any more than anything you're saying is "opinion." After all, we still don't have the devs gold standard data to support this claim. But I do agree with you. We, who've been here a while, can see this based on our own empirical observations over time. In fact, this is why we know it's kinda silly to argue with this point - because we actually have data (our observations over time) to support this, and not just random opinions.

I think most reasonable players know that the game is still quite active and that the servers are alive and active.

It's too irresistible to point out the inconsistency between this statement and the one you opened with. After all, how do we know this? We have only our observations here (we don't have the devs data). I suppose "active" can take on a bunch of meanings (e.g. so long as there is one player, it's "active"). But to the extent you are saying 'healthy' or 'robust' or anything of the sort, we cannot know this more than anything you've argued cannot be known objectively. Yet still, I agree with this, based again on my observations (which, like yours, are valid, objective data) over time...

This thread is about the fleet being the social hub of the game. I was just saying its not for me. I have every right to say so. If he or the Op only want players who agree or who spend lots of time on fleet to post, then it's hardly representative of the players who play. It would be just a one sided thread if that did happen. TUX's often posts imaginary stats based solely on he's opinion. Pretends he represents the majority of players, worse still represents the general public who don't even play the game. Belittles players who don't agree with him by saying they don't have a right to an opinion. while at the same time saying stuff like this-

 

Quote by TUX 1.

"Who has claimed it was for "everyone"? Nobody. Only you have, in your mistaken understanding of what people are saying."

 

Which is not what I said at all. I said everyone as in I don't, so if I don't not all do. In other words I was taking about myself not other players. Unlike him I never speak for other players. There is not one F****** thing in he's reply to my post that I even said. If a player like me does not use fleet for a social hub of the game, then it is relevant to the topic " The fleet has been, and always will be, the social hub of SWTOR" While he has in-fact said quotes such as this all taken from this thread,:-

 

 

Quote by TUX 2.

"Stop worrying about people trying to pretend it doesn't matter. It does, it reflects the servers health, always has, always will...don't let the deniers and antagonists bother you."

 

Quote by TUX 3.

"I've replied to the nonsense that fleet numbers are meaningless that's being trolled about...nothing more."

 

Quote by TUX 4

"I've played this game since beta...Fleet has ALWAYS represented the health of the server."

 

Then has the nerve to clime I have said everyone, when it clear that the use of everyone in context of my post is taking about ME. as in I don't so not everyone does. Pretty sure he's the one implying that.

 

Personally I have never considered staying on fleet as an indicator of the health of the game. Even less so since strong holds came out. Everything I need which was once on fleet I can get from my stronghold. Or by other methods such as holo statues as one example. I don't go there for gear even for my level 70 characters.

I only ever post MY opinions...since I have never claimed to speak for anyone else, I assumed even the simplest among us would understand that.

Where you personally hang out is irrelevant because you don't account for Fleets typical population - the players looking for groups, forming groups, chatting, PvPing etc. You don't matter in my analysis because you're not a Fleet regular. I've NEVER suggested that everyone is on Fleet, that's stupid...I've even stated that I assume Fleet to only represent 5-10% of the players online at that time...and I think that's generous even.

I stand by every one of those quotes of mine...Fleet represents the servers health. It always has, always will. As Fleet dies, so does a server.

And please be honest about me...I don't belittle anyone and I welcome anyone with a differing opinion to challenge anything I say...you haven't done that at all...you actually did the exact thing you accused me of doing and YOU launched into a personal attack with no facts and a litany of lies.

I think what he meant was - if you've never been on the fleet, then you can't be a part of the number used in fleet decline metrics because you weren't part of the original "n". That's how I read it at least.

 

The argument about the fleet has never been about any "absolute" number. It's the relative number, controlled for variables, between points in time...

100% correct. Thank you.

Nah. I replied to your argument that no hard content could be done outside of guilds with an argument that it absolutely can be done without being in a guild. You, however, never explained why some content could not be done unless you were part of a guild. Not even after I strait upasked. Twice. And no you never explained in your previous posts either (I read them), only insisted that it could not be done with no explanation. There is a difference in insisting for the sake of insisting and explaining one's point of argument.

 

Now. If you are winning to finally explain your side of this argument, I am, for the third time, COMPLETELY ready to hear your explanation on this:

 

If you still have nothing more to say there is no debate here.

Wrong in a myriad of ways, primarily because you are merely re-stating your misleading comment without acknowledging or addressing that it is misleading.

That was the second time I explained to you what you left out and I'll do so again, this time I'll put the text in bold just to emphasize what you keep dodging:

You tried to make your point in a backwards misleading way by saying that you don't need guilds to do NiM content and other hard content because there's Discord, but this is obviously dishonest because all those folks on Discord were in guilds for years and thus built their skills and networks based on guilds, so that doesn't prove your point.

Furthermore you misrepresented what I said. I didn't say no hard content could be done outside of a guild, I said: "you cannot do NiM content and a lot of HM content (operations and flashpoints) without being in a guild."

There is no argument here, there never was. There's just your attempts to omit an obvious truth: that you cannot do NiM content, a lot of HM content and conquest, without a guild. Your initial comment omitted the obvious, now you just dodge it. Now that I have pointed out why your comment is nonsense for a third time and I even bolded it for you, I'll even change the color for you, I'll leave it to you if you want to finally acknowledge reality. Your reply won't actually matter, no more so than it matters if you admit that fire is hot.

Wrong in a myriad of ways, primarily because you are merely re-stating your misleading comment without acknowledging or addressing that it is misleading.

 

That was the second time I explained to you what you left out and I'll do so again, this time I'll put the text in bold just to emphasize what you keep dodging:

You tried to make your point in a backwards misleading way by saying that you don't need guilds to do NiM content and other hard content because there's Discord, but this is obviously dishonest because all those folks on Discord were in guilds for years and thus built their skills and networks based on guilds, so that doesn't prove your point.

 

Furthermore you misrepresented what I said. I didn't say no hard content could be done outside of a guild, I said: "you cannot do NiM content and a lot of HM content (operations and flashpoints) without being in a guild."

 

There is no argument here, there never was. There's just your attempts to omit an obvious truth: that you cannot do NiM content, a lot of HM content and conquest, without a guild. Your initial comment omitted the obvious, now you just dodge it. Now that I have pointed out why your comment is nonsense for a third time and I even bolded it for you, I'll even change the color for you, I'll leave it to you if you want to finally acknowledge reality. Your reply won't actually matter, no more so than it matters if you admit that fire is hot.

Wow you necro just to reply to me and still you dont reply to the actual question I've been wanting you to answer.

I mention discord as one device to get around. I guess you you didnt read any of the others I offered. I'm not surprised since you're pretty busy writing miss-leading ten times in a single post to read what was being said. Btw I have a guild discord and bunch of random players discords who just play rando games and occasionally raid and invite everyone over, so it's not like every discord is strictly a guild or community. Lot of them are just someone's personal chat channels, I have one too, I invite folks over for tabletop-simulators mostly, but other games are not out of the question

I'll ask you again: WHY can you not do NiM content and a lot of HM content (operations and flashpoints) without being in a guild?

You just say it cannot be done. And not a single reason as to WHY it could not be done.

Do you know how chat channels work in this game? And no I'm not talking about /general /pvp /trade /guild.

Those are never tied to a guild, anyone can make one, anyone can join one (as long as they know the channel details). I personally use these channels get ops runs outside of guilds, it works fine. We can give these channel details out to anyone who is cool and good and they can join the channel and see every unscheduled ops call, and respond if they want or leave it be. All you need is some connections to get ops going, you don't need a guild. As far as I know theres currently people from like 20 different guilds, some guildless and some one-man meme guilds. And pretty much every new arrival didnt know any if us in advance, or still really don't. We just want you to be good and know your stuff and not be an arsehole, done.

Most HM ops you can even call on fleet and finish it just fine, or at-least with minimal replacements in my experience. Maybe you don't try them as much as I do to make you say pugging is impossible, if you raid with as many strangers as I do you learn to fights in a safe way requiring minimal communication with bunch of randos.

Ofc, this is assuming the rando has situational awareness outside of their usual playstyle, if you're just stubbornly assuming every rando acts like your guild does and blame them for not following your lead, ye u bad. It takes more awareness to pug hard content, but it is by no means impossible.

Now, if you once again reply "oh man ur miss-leading, here have 50 rows of text with no reply to your boldened question again" there is, again, no debate.

Wow you necro just to reply to me

5 days is a necro?

5 days is a necro?

When it's the same story he just said in his previous post, yeah. He might as well have gone "bump"

...

 

Furthermore you misrepresented what I said. I didn't say no hard content could be done outside of a guild, I said: "you cannot do NiM content and a lot of HM content (operations and flashpoints) without being in a guild."

 

There is no argument here, there never was. There's just your attempts to omit an obvious truth: that you cannot do NiM content, a lot of HM content and conquest, without a guild...

Except these statements are false. Well, let me clarify:

I have no dog in this hunt. I've never even done a SM op, so I really don't know how big of a deal this is. What I do have is any eye for absolute statements. When I see them, my antennas go up immediately. So I asked myself, "is it really true that you cannot do NiM (whatever that is) content, and a lot of HM content without a guild"? "Really, you can't?"

So I looked it up, and lo and behold, it's a false statement.* I was about to post links, but just google "NiM ops pugs swtor" or variants and in 30 secs you'll find numerous posts and threads here and on Reddit on the subject of people doing these (successfully too) via PUGs. Success stories are more rare, but they are there.

Had you not doubled down on this, and instead said "very difficult" or "almost impossible," I think you could have made the same point to the same effect, without running afoul of facts that totally contradict the absolute...

*My only caveat here, is I haven't personally verified this, so I'm relying on (a bevy of) other uncorroborated reports that I have no reason to take issue with.

5 days is a necro?

To be fair, it was 10 days since their last spat. Someone can't let things go. Someone also takes semantics a little too seriously and likes to repeat themselves for superiority's sake.

The fleets on SS and SF are dying, even during primetime. I don't think I've seen either server's fleets break 3 instances for a long time now. It's usually been 1 fleet and then a 2nd depopulating. The game surely could use some new content and a final merge right about now.

Content...it's all about the complete lack of new content. I don't know what Keith's big plans are, but he needs to reveal it soon...