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Theoretical Class Balancing


Toxification

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So I thought I'd compile all my thoughts as to class balance and overall game balance in a single post. This is a highly theoretical post and is currently to be taken with a grain of salt.

 

Now a concept I'd like to introduce(I guess) would be melee ranged casting abilities in which you can actually move. As well as some spells where you can also cast. It's my opinion that all classes should have at least 2 casted spells.

 

Currently: Working on a java program, so I can design talents for the skill trees.

 

Skill Values and Growth

 

When analysing the game mechanics from a casual stance the most stand out problem, the base damage on skills. If there is a point at which there is a really high gear standard in comparison to the skills at that level then or a really low it throws off the value of skills. It also provides an issue with class balance as some classes will benefit more from gear upgrades than others.

 

example: 150 base damage on a skill and 12 benefit from equipment

450 base damage on a skill and 24 benefit from equipment

 

This equates to

162 and 474 which aren't accurate representations of the endgame values.

 

Now that may be a terrible example but I've seen instances of it in-game. Additionally the biggest issue is between classes and benefits from gear. Solution?

 

Simply have a base multiplier on all skills for all classes and no base damage on skills, your base stats can provide that.

 

So take tracer missile and unload for example

unload has a multiplier of say 100% damage per second and tracer missile has a multiplier of 200%. Operatives shiv has a multiplier of say 120% while their backstab has a multiplier of say 140%.

 

Then upgrades to the skill would simply increase the multiplier by 4% of the initial value. Skills that don't have upgrades through tier's available would automatically increase by 4% per level(those gained through the skill tree mainly).

 

So taking thrash from tier 6 - 7 would provide a 14.6% increase in thrash's damage as there is a 6 level difference and tier 6 is level 16 and tier 7's level 22.

 

So thrash starts at 100% x 2

Grows by 4% of its initial value per level

100% base
112% base @ tier 2 lvl 4
124% base @ tier 3 lvl 7
136% base @ tier 4 lvl 10
148% base @ tier 5 lvl 13
160% base @ tier 6 lvl 16
184% base @ tier 7 lvl 22

 

All skills would follow that progression.

 

Class Skill Number

It's my personal opinion that all classes should have an equivalent number of attacks. I'd like to see about 6 attacks including your base/spammable attack.

Now all classes would have a larger number of skills initially then focus in on six specific attacks as they focus into a tree.

 

 

 

Stealth

 

Stealth needs a look at, the utility of it in PvP is pretty much to choose your targets and act as a gap closer. In PvE it pretty much functions to bypass enemies currently and get behind them, though unless you are an operative there's literally no point to doing so.

 

I'd personally like to see some difference between operative and assassin stealth but I'll go deeper in depth with that when I'm doing the specific class balance for the two classes.

 

Lastly no classes should have skills like stealth scan, they're completely pointless in PvE and are for the sole purpose of gimping two classes in PvP. Either all classes should get these skills or none at all. Considering how useless they are I'd say they should be removed.

 

 

 

Talent Worth and Value

 

All talents should be equally valuable to the character across all classes.

 

Damage increases should provide a set amount of damage increase to the class per upgrade every level. Say .75% initially, then 1% then 1.5% and so fourth as you move up the tiers.

For determining the damage values of a skill it is currently

Force Cost/Force Regen/2.2 = Force Cooldown

Skill Cooldown/(1.5 * Number of skills with a skill Cooldown * 2.2) = Skill cooldown

Force Cooldown + Skill Cooldown + 1 = Multiplier

 

 

Edited by Toxification
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Assassin/Shadow

Damage Skills

 

 

[b][base Skills][/b] 
Saber Strike
Thrash/Double Strike
Shock/Project
Force Lightning/Telekinetic Throw
Maul/Shadow Strike
Discharge/Force Breach
Crushing Darkness/Mind Crush
Lacerate/Whirling Blow
Assassinate/Spinning Strike
Spike/Spinning Kick

[b][Darkness/Kinetic Combat] [/b]
1. Saber Strike
2. Thrash/Double Strike
3. Shock/Project
4. Force Lightning/Telekinetic Throw
5. Discharge/Force Breach
6. Lacerate/Whirling Blow
7. Assassinate/Spinning Strike
8. Spike/Spinning Kick
9. Wither/Slow Time

[b][Deception/Infiltration][/b]
1. Saber Strike
2. Voltaic Slash/Clairvoyant Strike
3. Shock/Project
4. Maul/Shadow Strike
5. Discharge/Force Breach
6. Lacerate/Whirling Blow
7. Assassinate/Spinning Strike
8. Spike/Spinning Kick

[b][Madness/Balance][/b]
1. Saber Strike
2. Thrash/Double Strike
3. Shock/Project
4. Crushing Darkness/Mind Crush
5. Discharge/Force Breach
6. Lacerate/Whirling Blow
7. Assassinate/ Spinning Strike
8. Spike/Spinning Kick
9. Death Field/Force in Balance
10. Creeping Terror
[/Code]

 

 

[font=Arial Black][size=3]Assassin General Changes[/size][/font]

 

[b]Saber Strike-[/b] No change, currently at 100% damage multiplier and it will remain at a 100% damage multiplier.

 

[b]Thrash/Double Strike-[/b] No real change, looks to be doing around 75% damage per hit, through the calc's it comes out to something at around 97.5% per hit for a total of 195%

 

[b]Shock/Project-[/b] 242% damage multiplier. 35 force cost.

 

[b]Discharge-[/b] 25 force cost. Damage is completely dependant on the current lightsaber charge.

 

[b]Force Lightning/Telekinetic Throw-[/b] In its current state force lightning should be at around a 315% multiplier.

 

[b]Maul/Shadow Strike-[/b] 9 second cooldown 35 force cost, should have around a 287% multiplier, increases the movement speed of you and up to 5 party members within a 30 meter radius by 35% for 3 seconds.

 

[b]Crushing Dakrness/Mind Crush-[/b] 15 second cooldown 40 force cost and 1.5 second cast. Multiplier of 308%,

 

[b]Lacerate/Whirling Blow-[/b] I'm debating as to whether or not to even include this skill in the game and integrate some AoE mechanics to the assassin some other way. Regardless the skill have a multiplier of 197% at a force cost of 35. Should be spread out across 2 hits in the animation.

 

[b]Spike/Spinning Kick- [/b] Another skill that I'm not 100% sure about, I definitely want to see it in the game but I'm just not sure how it should be structured. Currently I'm trying to decide between having it off the global cooldown OR having it be a 1.5 second cast skill during which the opponent is immobilized(think force choke) then results in a 1 second stun afterwards. Open for suggestions

 

[b]Assassinate/Spinning Strike Removed -[/b] Reason being that in my opinion it greatly reduces team play and promotes kill stealing in PvP. In PvE it's simply not that useful and it's only really useful against tough elites and difficult enemies.

 

[b]Lighting Charge-[/b] Has a 50% chance to deal 20% multiplier damage every time you attack. Average's out to 10% base multiplier damage increase.

 

[b]Force Speed- [/b]In my opinion this skill is crap when compared to the sith warrior/jedi knights force leap/force charge. The skill not only deals damage but builds rage/focus which is useful, it allows the user to traverse the z axis and it serves as an interrupt. So I personally don't see how we get stuck with a skill that increases our movement speed by 150% for 2 seconds. The primary issue is that the skill doesn't allow you to move easily along the z axis and it's on a 30 second cooldown. The solution would be to have an assassin skill which causes force speed to shadowstep you behind the target within a range of 30 meters, but not within a range of 10 meters. Shadowstepping would also take you out of stealth, but not normal force speed.

All credit for the concept goes to Jayvengar.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[size=3][font=Arial Black][b]Deception/Infiltration[/b][/font][/size]

 

I'm going to start with deception/infiltration as it's the branch of assassin that I'm the most familiar with.

[font=Arial Black][size=2][b]Tier 1[/b][/size][/font]

2 Points - Thrashing Blades/Applied Force- Increases the damage dealt by thrash/voltaic slash/Double Strike/Clairvoyant Strike by 4...8%

3 Points - Assassins boon/Shadows Insight/Wisdom: Increases willpower by 3% per rank

2 Points - Dark Embrace: No change from current.

 

[font=Arial Black][size=2][b]Tier 2[/b][/size][/font]

3 Points - Obfuscation(No changes, YET)

2 Points - Recirculation decreases discharges cooldown by 2.25...4.5

2 Points - Avoidance(No current changes, but I might come up with something)

 

[font=Arial Black][size=2][b]Tier 3[/b][/size][/font]

1 Point - Surging Charge: All your attacks deal an additional 15% damage multiplier internal damage. This would be attacks not damage, however for interesting affect it will spread out across all the hits per second, so 3 5% multiplier hits on saber strike or 2 7.5% multiplier hits on double strike/thrash.

2 Points - Induction: Increases maul's crit damage by 17.5%...35%, reduces the force cost of shock by 12.5% per stack of induction.

1 Point - Shadow Slash(Requires 2 Points in Dark Embrace)- Deals 150% multiplier in damage and gives 3 seconds of stealth. 20 Force cost, 15 second CD.

 

 

 

 

[b][size=6][font=Times New Roman]Sorcerer/Sage[/font][/size][/b]

Damage Skills

 

[b][base Skills][/b]

Force Lightning

Shock

Crushing Darkness

Affliction

Lightning Strike

 

[b][Lightning][/b]

1)Force Lightning

2)Shock

3)Lightning Strike

4)Crushing Darkness

5)Affliction

6)Chain Lightning

7)Thundering Blast

 

[b][Madness][/b]

1)Force Lightning

2)Shock

3)Lightning Strike

4)Crushing Darkness

5)Death Field

6)Affliction

7)Creeping Terror

 

 

 

[b][size=3][font=Arial Black]Sorcerer General Changes[/font][/size][/b]

 

[b]Force Lightning:[/b] Is now free and has no cooldown, it will have a damage multiplier of 252%. You are able to move at 50% speed while casting, without a slow effect at base.

[b]Shock:[/b] 35 force cost, 6 second cooldown, 203% multiplier

[b]Crushing Darkness:[/b] 1.5 second cast, 15 second cooldown 237% multiplier

[b]Affliction:[/b] 35 force cost, 15 second duration, 228% multiplier

[b]Lightning Strike:[/b] 30 force cost, 1.5 second cast, 178% multiplier

 

 

 

Edited by Toxification
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Operative/Scoundrel

As far as I'm concerned the operative needs major changes. I'm not sure about how to even start at the moment.

 

Brainstorming-

The class needs more emphasis on tactical advantages and many of its skills in the trees need a complete revamp. The energy mechanics need a revamp, the idea should be to utilize all of your available energy to deal massive damage and have your total dps reduced because of it. However it's more like use all your energy to get 15% extra damage for a few seconds and then have a massive drop in your dps as you struggle to regenerate 2 energy per second. For the operative(not the sniper) I'd personally like to see energy be a completely static resource. The operative HAS to do burst to survive anyway so they don't really have a choice. The only other option would be to provide them with such massive damage that all the other classes would QQ like crazy because they'd be ****** face in PvP. My opinion? give them a static energy regen of 5 and leave it there.

 

Tactical advantages would be used to grant 30 seconds of stealth(give or take some time) out of combat, but would increase your movement speed by 15%. This would add to sprint. The general idea here is that you finish killing an enemy and you then stealth up and move on to the group or person, this would be a slight playstyle change for operatives but nothing major.

 

Damage Skills

 

[base Skills]

Rifle Shot

Overload Shot

Shiv

Backstab

Corrosive Dart

Hidden Strike

 

 

Concealment

1) Rifle Shot

2) Overload Shot

3) Shiv

4) Backstab

5) Corrosive Dart

6) Acid Blade

7) Hidden Strike

8) Laceration

 

Concealment

1) Rifle Shot

2) Overload Shot

3) Shiv

4) Backstab

5) Corrosive Dart

6) Corrosive Grenade

7) Hidden Strike

8) Cull

9) Weakening Blast

 

 

 

Operative General Changes

 

Overload Shot- Costs 12 energy and has a multiplier of 173%

Shiv- Costs 17 energy, 240% multiplier, 6 second cooldown

Backstab- Costs 20 energy, 294% multiplier, 12 second cooldown

Corrosive Dart- Costs 25 energy, 342% multiplier

Hidden Strike- Costs 23 energy, 324% mutliplier, 9 second cooldown

Cloak Overload- Costs a tactical advantage and grants 6 seconds of stealth, during which your movement speed is increased by 25%.

Tactical Advantages- These will now grant increased movement speed and chance to dodge attacks. They increase your movement speed and chance to dodge by 2.5% chance per TA.

 

 

 

Concealment

 

Coming Soon

 

Edited by Toxification
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The problem I have with stealth is that as soon as you are in combat, you get pulled out of stealth.

 

This means that if you tell your companion to attack something... BOOM pulled out of stealth. It makes stealthing in a pve situation completely pointless. If you open, all the mobs are on you and you die like a ***** because your companion can't possibly taunt five to six mobs with their taunt on a 6 second cd before your health hits 0.

 

If, on the other hand, you let your companion open, good luck being able to get behind a mob (or even worse, losing the ability to use openers that require stealth). As soon as you damage something, everything your companion isn't actively shooting/stabbing will aggro onto you, especially at low levels when companions have little to no aoe.

 

Stealth should be changed to function like stealth mechanics in every. other. RPG. ever:

-stealth/unstealth at will outside of combat (also, herp derp the CD on stealth makes no sense because of the following point).

-unable to restealth in combat without using (long?) cooldown abilities, or situationally (ie. being able to restealth if you are in combat with one mob and blind/stun/et cetera it).

 

This would solve a lot of the problems with stealth being useless mostly, and also make the ability to find stealthed targets much more lucrative. Although I agree that the current implementation should be removed. Mashing an ability that costs next to nothing on a very short CD is mildly overpowered, since it's very obviously a hard counter to stealth classes, which no class should ever have.

 

I should like to also point out something you glossed over - Shadows/Assassins also have skills that have positional requirements.

Edited by Diviciacus
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The problem I have with stealth is that as soon as you are in combat, you get pulled out of stealth.

 

This means that if you tell your companion to attack something... BOOM pulled out of stealth. It makes stealthing in a pve situation completely pointless. If you open, all the mobs are on you and you die like a ***** because your companion can't possibly taunt five to six mobs with their taunt on a 6 second cd before your health hits 0.

 

If, on the other hand, you let your companion open, good luck being able to get behind a mob (or even worse, losing the ability to use openers that require stealth). As soon as you damage something, everything your companion isn't actively shooting/stabbing will aggro onto you, especially at low levels when companions have little to no aoe.

 

Stealth should be changed to function like stealth mechanics in every. other. RPG. ever:

-stealth/unstealth at will outside of combat (also, herp derp the CD on stealth makes no sense because of the following point).

-unable to restealth in combat without using (long?) cooldown abilities, or situationally (ie. being able to restealth if you are in combat with one mob and blind/stun/et cetera it).

 

This would solve a lot of the problems with stealth being useless mostly, and also make the ability to find stealthed targets much more lucrative. Although I agree that the current implementation should be removed. Mashing an ability that costs next to nothing on a very short CD is mildly overpowered, since it's very obviously a hard counter to stealth classes, which no class should ever have.

 

I should like to also point out something you glossed over - Shadows/Assassins also have skills that have positional requirements.

 

Aye I have to agree with pretty much all of this, now as a deception assassin primarily I don't find I have issues with dying but that's becuase I'm highly overleveled for the content I'm doing because I'm always queued for PvP.

 

I'll get more in depth into my stealth concepts when I get around to assassin/shadow and operative/scoundrel balancing.

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just with a quick glance:

 

you can't just compare an ability modifier with another if you don't take into account all the benefits you could derive from synergy.

 

take shock p.e. that you mentioned: tank assassins wreck people with it atm, buffing it more would mean higher threat for pve (which is unnessasary) and higher damage in one of the best pvp specs.

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You're absolutely right, I wouldn't suggest they throw a buffed shock into the game at the moment as it would completely throw everything out of whack.

 

However to make balancing skill trees simplistic and accurate as well as fair, it's optimal to start with an equivalent base and work your way up from there. If all skills are equal at the start, all upgrades can be equivalent.

Edited by Toxification
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You're absolutely right, I wouldn't suggest they throw a buffed shock into the game at the moment as it would completely throw everything out of whack.

 

However to make balancing skill trees simplistic and accurate as well as fair, it's optimal to start with an equivalent base and work your way up from there. If all skills are equal at the start, all upgrades can be equivalent.

 

yeah but how do you balance utility non-direct spells/talents.

 

i mean take shock p.e. since you mentioned it, you remove the double proc, you remove the healing and etc so as to have a clean state when building the talent tree from the start.

 

now assume you think the class needs a CC or a gap closer. how much % do you value that?

 

talking about theoritical values is nice and all, but for this to happen you need to know the internal values that the devs want for their games:

 

p.e. they might think that a hard CC is equal to 2k damage, you might think it is equal to 3k damage. without knowing what they think you can't balance cause in the end, it is all just an OPINION: theirs vs yours.

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Meh I can get a general idea as to the damage they want for utility skills by looking at the damage of current utility skills in the game. That's what I base them upon, but I haven't even gotten around to working on utility skills yet.

 

Additionally you have to realize that all this is simply my opinion generally. However I can't help but look at so many of the the skill trees and the damage values of skills and notice that they are completely wrong.

 

Bioware made balancing classes very difficult for themselves. They used an additive template instead of a multiplicative template and didn't use constant values for absolute upgrades in the skill trees.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Alrighty Sorcerer/Sage and Shadow/Assassin should now be dealing exactly the same damage before any talents in the trees. Which will be modified as soon as I get my java program functioning well. This is excluding rotation conflicts however.

 

So all the assassin and sorcerer class trees will deal exactly the same damage over an extended period of time.

 

Working on getting operative to the desired threshold.

 

Boo yah

Edited by Toxification
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FINALLY done my java program, good riddance.

 

Here's my code, if you understand java clicky.

 

/************************

* Project: SWToR.jpx

* Programmer:

* Date:

* Program:

************************/

package swtor;

import BreezyGUI.*;

import java.awt.*;

import java.text.*;

public class SWToR extends GBFrame

{

 

Label timeLabel = addLabel("How long?", 1,1,1,1);

Label dpsLabel = addLabel("DPS:",2,1,1,1);

Label damageLabel = addLabel("Total damage", 3,1,1,1);

Label forceLabel = addLabel("Force:",4,1,1,1);

 

 

DoubleField timeField = addDoubleField(0,1,2,1,1);

DoubleField dpsField = addDoubleField(0,2,2,1,1);

DoubleField damageField = addDoubleField(0,3,2,1,1);

DoubleField forceField = addDoubleField(0 ,4,2,1,1);

 

 

Button continueButton = addButton("Continue?", 5,1,2,1);

 

 

 

public void buttonClicked (Button buttonObj)

{

 

// Declare variables

double damagevalue, thrash, shock, maul, discharge, spike, dark_slash,

force_ligh, crushing_dark, saber_strike, sabercharge;

double thrash_avg, shock_avg, maul_avg, discharge_avg, spike_avg,

dark_slash_avg, force_ligh_avg, crushing_dark_avg,

saber_strike_avg;

double shock_cd, maul_cd, discharge_cd, spike_cd, force_ligh_cd,

dark_slash_cd, crushing_dark_cd;

int thrash_uses, shock_uses, force_ligh_uses, maul_uses, discharge_uses,

crushing_dark_uses, spike_uses, saber_strike_uses,

dark_slash_uses;

double force_regen;

String message;

 

DecimalFormat percent = new DecimalFormat("00.0");

 

//Assign damage values to skills

thrash = 1.94 * 550 * 0.9;

shock = 2.42 * 550;

force_ligh = 3.15 * 550;

maul = 2.87 * 550 * 0.9;

discharge = 2.4 * 550;

crushing_dark = 3.08 * 550;

spike = 2.28 * 550 * 0.9;

dark_slash = 1.9 * 550 * 0.9;

saber_strike = 1 * 550 * 0.9;

sabercharge = 0.1 * 550;

 

 

//Assign cooldown spaces for the individual akills

shock_cd = 0;

maul_cd = 0;

discharge_cd = 0;

spike_cd = 0;

force_ligh_cd = 0;

crushing_dark_cd = 0;

dark_slash_cd = 0;

 

 

//Assing usage amounts for skills

thrash_uses = 0;

shock_uses = 0;

force_ligh_uses = 0;

maul_uses = 0;

discharge_uses = 0;

crushing_dark_uses = 0;

spike_uses = 0;

saber_strike_uses = 0;

dark_slash_uses = 0;

 

 

//Assign resources

double force = 100;

double totaldamage = 0;

int count = 0;

force_regen = 12;

force_regen *= 1.25;

double time = timeField.getNumber();

 

if (buttonObj == continueButton)

{

while (count <= (time - 1))

{

if (force <= (100 - force_regen))

force += force_regen;

else

force = 100;

count += 1;

if (shock_cd > 0){

shock_cd -= 1.5;

}

if (maul_cd > 0){

maul_cd -= 1.5;

}

if (discharge_cd > 0){

discharge_cd -= 1.5;

}

if (spike_cd > 0){

spike_cd -= 1.5;

}

if (dark_slash_cd > 0){

dark_slash_cd -= 1.5;

}

if (force >= 30 && discharge_cd == 0){

totaldamage += discharge + sabercharge;

discharge_cd += 15;

discharge_uses += 1;

force -= 25;}

else if (force >= 35 && shock_cd == 0){

totaldamage += shock + sabercharge;

shock_cd += 6;

shock_uses += 1;

force -= 35; }

else if (force >= 10 && spike_cd == 0){

totaldamage += spike + sabercharge;

spike_cd += 15;

spike_uses += 1;

force -= 10;

}

else if (force >= 35 && maul_cd == 0){

totaldamage += maul + sabercharge;

maul_cd += 9;

maul_uses += 1;

force -= 35;

}

 

 

else if (force >= 35){

totaldamage += thrash + sabercharge;

thrash_uses += 1;

force -= 25;

}

else if (dark_slash_cd == 0){

totaldamage += dark_slash + sabercharge;

dark_slash_cd += 15;

dark_slash_uses += 1;

}

else{

totaldamage += saber_strike + sabercharge;

saber_strike_uses += 1;

}

 

}

double dps = totaldamage / count;

forceField.setNumber(force);

forceField.setPrecision(1);

dpsField.setNumber(dps);

dpsField.setPrecision(1);

timeField.setNumber(count);

damageField.setNumber(totaldamage);

damageField.setPrecision(2);

thrash_avg = 100 * thrash * thrash_uses / totaldamage;

shock_avg = 100 *shock * shock_uses / totaldamage;

force_ligh_avg = 100 *force_ligh * force_ligh_uses / totaldamage;

maul_avg = 100 *maul * maul_uses / totaldamage;

discharge_avg = 100 *discharge * discharge_uses / totaldamage;

crushing_dark_avg = 100 *crushing_dark * crushing_dark_uses / totaldamage;

spike_avg = 100 *spike * spike_uses / totaldamage;

saber_strike_avg = 100 * saber_strike * saber_strike_uses / totaldamage;

dark_slash_avg = 100 * dark_slash * dark_slash_uses / totaldamage;

message = "Combat log:\n"

+ "Thrash = " +thrash+" damage, \tUses: "+thrash_uses+"\nTotal Percentage of Damage: " + percent.format(thrash_avg) +"%\n\n"

+ "Shock = " +shock+" damage, \tUses: "+shock_uses+"\nTotal Percentage of Damage: " + percent.format(shock_avg) +"%\n\n"

+ "Force Lightning = " +force_ligh+" damage, \tUses: "+force_ligh_uses+"\nTotal Percentage of Damage: " + percent.format(force_ligh_avg) +"%\n\n"

+ "Maul = " +maul+" damage, \tUses: "+maul_uses+"\nTotal Percentage of Damage: " + percent.format(maul_avg) +"%\n\n"

+ "Discharge = " +discharge+" damage, \tUses: "+discharge_uses+"\nTotal Percentage of Damage: " + percent.format(discharge_avg) +"%\n\n"

+ "Crushing Darkness = " +crushing_dark+" damage, \tUses: "+crushing_dark_uses+"\nTotal Percentage of Damage: " + percent.format(crushing_dark_avg) +"%\n\n"

+ "Spike = " +spike+" damage, \tUses: "+spike_uses+"\nTotal Percentage of Damage: " + percent.format(spike_avg) +"%\n\n"

+ "Saber Strike = " +saber_strike+" damage, \tUses: "+saber_strike_uses+"\nTotal Percentage of Damage: " + percent.format(saber_strike_avg) +"%\n\n"

+ "Dark Slash = " +dark_slash+" damage, \tUses: "+dark_slash_uses+"\nTotal Percentage of Damage: " + percent.format(dark_slash_avg) +"%\n\n";

messageBox(message);

}

}

public static void main(String[] args) {

Frame frm = new SWToR ();

frm.setSize (400,150);

frm.setVisible (true);

}

 

}

 

 

Now the only thing that really needs work is the rotation and priorities.

 

Currently it's

Discharge if force greater than or equal to 25 and off-cooldown

Shock if force is greater than 35 and shock's off cooldown

Maul if force is greater than 35 and maul's off-cooldown

Dark slash if force is less than 70 and dark slash is off cooldown

Then spike if dark slash has been used.

Thrash if force is greater than 35.

 

My only issue at the moment would have to be with the logic and rotation parameters.

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looking through the post at the top...just a small point....abilities already have something like your "multiplier" included.

 

you never addressed why this "multiplier" was needed. You said something was "terrible"...but never explain what it is. I'm guessing it's that you think that all abilities receive the same benefit from gear, therefore an ability that only deals 100 base damage receives more benefit than an ability that does 1000 base damage. This is not the case.

 

in it's simplest terms, the damage an ability does is determined by: base damage + coefficient*bonus damage (of course there are also talents, other abilities that affect damage, the targets damage resistances, etc)

 

the coefficient is based on what type of ability it is, it's cooldown, it's cast time, AoE vs single target, etc... so there's no reason to completely redo how abilities work.

 

The ability that deals 100 base damage might have a coefficient of only 0.1, meaning that if you had 1000 bonus damage the ability would only deal 200 damage. On the other hand the ability that deals 1000 base damage might have a coefficient of 1.0, meaning that with 1000 bonus damage the ability would deal 2000 damage....so with 1000 bonus damage both abilities will deal double base damage.

 

Some coefficients are very large (for example, tank abilities typically have very large coefficients to make up for tank gear having lower DPS stats), and some coefficients are very small.

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The issue with the current system is that when comparing say shock or project to saber strike the benefits from equipment and leveling scale at a completely different rate.

 

If saber strike deals 500 damage and shock deals 3000 in the current system, then you upgrade your equipment and the new damage values are 1500 and 4500. The ratio has gone from 1:6 to 1:3 and it's completely broken, there's no real reason that something like this should be occuring as all it'll do is offbalance the game for you depending on how good your equipment is. A rather extreme example and no skills in game are exactly like this, but a great example is to examine marauder/sentinel skills at the top of the tree at a low level, then go in a PvP match where you recieve the buff. The skills go from being amazing and overpowered to being weaker than some of your current skills. Massacre's a good example.

 

So there has to be a set amount of base damage, say 50 on all skills that gets added with the bonus damage from equipment, be it 400 or something like that, then the multiplier gets applied, what the multiplier is completely depends on the skill.

 

So it would look something like

500 damage on saber strike and 1500 on shock, then after the gear upgrade it's 1000 on saber strike and 3000 on shock. No skill has become more or less valuable simply more valuable as a whole. It simply means that there's a less confusing system for the community, the developers and it's constantly balanced assuming they don't do anything screwy with gear ratings.

Edited by Toxification
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Here are the current readings for deception assassin

Combat log:

Thrash = 1006.5 damage, Uses: 159

Total Percentage of Damage: 13.9%

 

Shock = 1331.0 damage, Uses: 249

Total Percentage of Damage: 28.7%

 

Force Lightning = 1732.5 damage, Uses: 0

Total Percentage of Damage: 0.0%

 

Maul = 1468.5 damage, Uses: 125

Total Percentage of Damage: 15.9%

 

Discharge = 1507 damage, Uses: 125

Total Percentage of Damage: 16.3%

 

Crushing Darkness = 1694.0 damage, Uses: 0

Total Percentage of Damage: 0.0%

 

Spike = 1254.0 damage, Uses: 94

Total Percentage of Damage: 10.2%

 

Saber Strike = 550.0 damage, Uses: 154

Total Percentage of Damage: 7.3%

 

Dark Slash = 1045.0 damage, Uses: 94

Total Percentage of Damage: 8.5%

 

Over the course of a thousand turns

 

Thereby tier 1 of deception:

Thrashing Blades- Increases the damage dealt by thrash/voltaic slash by 5.4%..10.8%, 2 points.

Assassins Boon/Shadows Insight- Increases your willpower by 3...9% 3 points

Insulation- No changes from current, till I come up with something creative.

 

Tier 2:

Recirculation: No change

Objuscation: Being replaced

Avoidance: No need for changes

 

Tier 3:

Surging charge: Guaranteed chance to trigger on attacks. Multiplier of 15%. Will have it's damage spread out if the skill is a multi-hit.

Induction: Thrash/Voltaic slash has a 50...100% chance to make your next discharge free

Deceptive Power: No change from current, maybe add in an additional passive affect.

Dark Swell: Not sure what's going to replace this yet.

 

Tier 4:

Fade: Reduces the cooldown of force cloak by 30 seconds and increases your movement speed by 15...30% for 3 seconds when you activate dark slash

Duplicity: While surging charge is active maul deals 10...20% more damage

Dark Slash: Deals 190% damage, 15 second cooldown and grants 4 seconds of stealth.

Static Cling: Decreases the cooldown of force slow and increases it's duration by 1.5...3 seconds and force speed grants 3...6 seconds of slow on shadowstep.

 

Tier 5:

Resourcefulness: Not sure what to do with this yet, but it's got to go. I'm thinking it might be a good one to change into some form of heal mechanic

Static Charges: Your surging charge hits increase the damage dealt by shock by 3...6% stacks 5 times. Cannot be triggered more than once a GCD.

Crackling Blasts: Increases the critical damage of surging charge and shock by 10...30%. 3 Points.

 

Tier 6:

Dark Embrace: While in stealth mode and for 6 seconds after leaving stealth mode your force regeneration is increased by 25...75%. 3 Point skill. Requires Dark Slash.

System Shock: Derp?

 

Tier 7:

Voltaic Slash: Base multiplier of 210% before other talents. Using this skill increases the damage of your next discharge by 30%.

Edited by Toxification
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1) You apparently don't understand what the coefficient is, please re-read what I wrote. The coefficient does exactly what your multiplier does (and more).

 

2) Please go read some posts on sithwarrior.com, or do a search for theorycrafting...as you don't seem to understand how this game works and are making many faulty assumptions.

 

3) You need to get a little higher level before making these posts...as they don't make any sense. For example, you say that there should be an ability with a long cooldown to allow you to re-enter stealth in combat. That ability exists, you gain it in the mid 20s for both assassin & operative. (hmm...did you edit that comment out of your posts because you realized it was dumb?)

 

Another example: When you reach lvl 50, you will find out that there is no "pvp buff" and that your skills will do the same in a warzone as they do anywhere else (assuming you have zero expertise). Arguing about balance in a warzone pre-50 is silly, pvp pre-lvl cap is never balanced in any MMO...and most games fail at balance even at level cap as well.

 

Yet another example: You are talking about the damage of shock. Were you unaware of the skill Assassin's training? It is a passive skill with a few different ranks, each rank increases the damage of shock by 25%. You get the first rank at lvl 10, the second rank I think in the high teens, the third in the mid 20s, and idk about the rest as my shadow character is still in her 20s, and torhead doesn't list all of the skills ranks :/

 

In other words, Shock becomes more and more a major part of your damage the higher lvl you get. And that was something the dev's designed into the game. It is not broken.

 

4) Lastly...why is everything in your posts in spoiler tags? that's just annoying. Spoiler tags are for, spoilers. If you don't know what a spoiler is: Your ideas on the usefulness of stealth is not a spoiler it is an opinion, on the other hand the plot of the Sith Warrior class story is a spoiler.

Edited by Veriu
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1) You apparently don't understand what the coefficient is, please re-read what I wrote. The coefficient does exactly what your multiplier does (and more).

I read what you said, and that system is faulty. It should be (base damage + bonus damage) * coefficient to keep values constant.

 

 

3) You need to get a little higher level before making these posts...as they don't make any sense. For example, you say that there should be an ability with a long cooldown to allow you to re-enter stealth in combat. That ability exists, you gain it in the mid 20s for both assassin & operative. (hmm...did you edit that comment out of your posts because you realized it was dumb?)

I never said I wanted a long cooldown skill to enter stealth in combat I wanted a short cooldown skill that would put you in stealth for a limited time in combat. I never said that assassins and operatives should get a long term one to have them leave stealth permanently because they already do in the form of cloaking screen and force cloak.

 

 

Another example: When you reach lvl 50, you will find out that there is no "pvp buff" and that your skills will do the same in a warzone as they do anywhere else (assuming you have zero expertise). Arguing about balance in a warzone pre-50 is silly, pvp pre-lvl cap is never balanced in any MMO...and most games fail at balance even at level cap as well.

I realize that there is no pvp buff at level 50, I was simply using the buff that you receive from pvp as a way to clearly demonstrate the scaling in skills. Some skills clearly benefit more from gear than others THAT was the point that I was trying to make.

 

Yet another example: You are talking about the damage of shock. Were you unaware of the skill Assassin's training? It is a passive skill with a few different ranks, each rank increases the damage of shock by 25%. You get the first rank at lvl 10, the second rank I think in the high teens, the third in the mid 20s, and idk about the rest as my shadow character is still in her 20s, and torhead doesn't list all of the skills ranks :/

 

In other words, Shock becomes more and more a major part of your damage the higher lvl you get. And that was something the dev's designed into the game. It is not broken.

Actually assassins training provides only the initial 25% damage buff to shock, there's literally no damage difference in shock between assassins training rank 1-4. In fact shock isn't even getting a full benefit from assassins training(I believe it's like 18-19%?) or it's falling somewhere into the equation that I'm not aware of.

 

4) Lastly...why is everything in your posts in spoiler tags? that's just annoying. Spoiler tags are for, spoilers. If you don't know what a spoiler is: Your ideas on the usefulness of stealth is not a spoiler it is an opinion, on the other hand the plot of the Sith Warrior class story is a spoiler.

 

Because if they aren't in spoilers then wall of text syndrome occurs. People don't like scrolling all that much. Although if it bothers you that much I'll take them out and see what I can do about formatting.

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Balance should be something like:

 

 

heals>=range dps>=tanks>=melee dps>=heals

 

 

But right now its:

 

heals>range dps>tanks=melee dps>agents

 

how true, how true. love how every class you fight has so many buffs, procs, shields but agents have hardly anything at all. seems so many complained about operatives that they had to just turn the entire class to pure ****, thank god I wasted time rolling a main sniper up to 50 to realise that class imbalance is just rediculous.

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I read what you said, and that system is faulty. It should be (base damage + bonus damage) * coefficient to keep values constant.

 

umm...no.

 

(base damage + bonus damage)* coefficient??? That simplifies to: base damage*coefficient + bonus damage*coefficient...which is just silly, instead they modify the base damage of the skill and just have base damage + bonus damage*coefficient. The are the EXACT same system.

 

I never said I wanted a long cooldown skill to enter stealth in combat I wanted a short cooldown skill that would put you in stealth for a limited time in combat. I never said that assassins and operatives should get a long term one to have them leave stealth permanently because they already do in the form of cloaking screen and force cloak.

 

So you want assassins & operatives to have force camouflage? mara/sent's already have that.

 

I realize that there is no pvp buff at level 50, I was simply using the buff that you receive from pvp as a way to clearly demonstrate the scaling in skills. Some skills clearly benefit more from gear than others THAT was the point that I was trying to make.

 

So what? Yes, some abilities scale better with gear than others...those are the abilities that end up having the highest DPCT & DPR (damage per cast time & damage per resource). That's how you create a priority list & play your class correctly.

 

If every ability scaled exactly the same, then you could just find the best DPCT one and spam it.

 

If they switched to your model, and used just stats*multiplier for ability damage, skills would still scale differently.

 

Regardless of what you want, this is not your game. It is bioware's game, and they decided to use the same system for calculating damage as virtually every RPG since DnD back in the 70s. (which is base damage roll + modifiers). If you think your system is better, then go make your own game.

 

Actually assassins training provides only the initial 25% damage buff to shock, there's literally no damage difference in shock between assassins training rank 1-4. In fact shock isn't even getting a full benefit from assassins training(I believe it's like 18-19%?) or it's falling somewhere into the equation that I'm not aware of.

 

You sure about that? I'm pretty sure that my shadow's project damage went up by a good 50 points when I learned rank 2. But I haven't done any theorycrafting on that toon yet, so I could be mistaken.

Edited by Veriu
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So you want assassins & operatives to have force camouflage? mara/sent's already have that.

 

I know what marauders and sentinels have the skill and I know what it does. I fail to see your point however.

 

 

So what? Yes, some abilities scale better with gear than others...those are the abilities that end up having the highest DPCT & DPR (damage per cast time & damage per resource). That's how you create a priority list & play your class correctly.

 

If every ability scaled exactly the same, then you could just find the best DPCT one and spam it.

 

If they switched to your model, and used just stats*multiplier for ability damage, skills would still scale differently.

 

You're not understanding gaahhh(beats head on desk). I realize how the current system works I'm simply stating that there are some slight flaws with the current system that work against balance that could easily be tweaked to simply make the game far easier to balance without sacrificing anything other than a little time and effort to make the change. In the end they'd save themselves alot of work and pain and suffering. Here's an example of an issue with the current system

 

Massacre - Tier 7 skill of the central marauder tree Carnage deals around 214-235 on my level 18 marauder(from the preview). 3 rage cost. Vicious slash deals around 180-205 damage costs 3 rage. As of level 50 however they look more like this. Carnage deals 800-850 damage and Vicious Slash deals 950-1000 damage, the rage costs have not changed. This is a major problem for the playerbase because what looks to be an awesome skill and an upgrade, is actually a downgrade because of Carnage not scaling properly. The ratio has gone from carnage doing 17% MORE damage to carnage doing 15% LESS damage. That's the issue with scaling and I want to make sure that all skills scale at an equal ratio.

 

 

You sure about that? I'm pretty sure that my shadow's project damage went up by a good 50 points when I learned rank 2. But I haven't done any theorycrafting on that toon yet, so I could be mistaken.

 

100% sure, I went on my shadow 2 hours ago and got shadows training from rank 2-4 and project's damage didn't result in an increase. It was doing an average of 820 non-crit damage on level 4 mobs before shadows training and 820 average after shadows training.

Edited by Toxification
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I know what marauders and sentinels have the skill and I know what it does. I fail to see your point however.

 

My point is that a class already has a short duration in combat stealth move...in general I like classes to be different, and am against any sort of class homogenization.

 

You're not understanding gaahhh(beats head on desk). I realize how the current system works I'm simply stating that there are some slight flaws with the current system that work against balance that could easily be tweaked to simply make the game far easier to balance without sacrificing anything other than a little time and effort to make the change. In the end they'd save themselves alot of work and pain and suffering. Here's an example of an issue with the current system

 

Massacre - Tier 7 skill of the central marauder tree Carnage deals around 214-235 on my level 18 marauder(from the preview). 3 rage cost. Vicious slash deals around 180-205 damage costs 3 rage. As of level 50 however they look more like this. Carnage deals 800-850 damage and Vicious Slash deals 950-1000 damage, the rage costs have not changed. This is a major problem for the playerbase because what looks to be an awesome skill and an upgrade, is actually a downgrade because of Carnage not scaling properly. The ratio has gone from carnage doing 17% MORE damage to carnage doing 15% LESS damage. That's the issue with scaling and I want to make sure that all skills scale at an equal ratio.

 

I see that YOU think it is a problem, but you have not explained why I should see it as a problem.

 

I am aware that different skills scale differently, and that your biggest attack at lvl 20 might end up being your worst attack at lvl 40. I don't see why this is a problem. Though your example is pretty bad...you are forgetting that massacre increases the chance for Ataru form to proc by 30%. Therefore even if Massacre did like zero damage, it would still be worth it for the extra attack/boosted damage on next attack/force scream crit chance.

 

Your suggestion is for bioware to completely redo how all abilities calculate how much damage/healing they do, as such the burden of proof is on you. Before you can expect bioware to actually do anything, you need to provide reasons for why the current system is flawed and why your system is better. Here, I'll help you out, if I can. Answer these questions:

 

-You say that having different abilities scale differently is terrible. Why is it terrible, don't just provide an example of two abilities scaling differently. Provide a reason as to why it is bad that different abilities scale differently. After reading all of your posts in this thread, I completely understand that you think it is terrible, and you have provided a few different examples of different scaling as well...how about a reason?

 

-Some abilities are AoE, some are single target...is that terrible as well? Should all abilities behave exactly the same way? If it is not terrible that some abilities are AoE, why is that different than scaling differently?

 

-To put it another way, why should all abilities scale the same? What benefit does that give the game, saying "it makes it easier to balance" is not an answer, nor is "it makes the ratio's the same". Why is it important for the ratio's to stay the same, and how does having skills scale the same make it easier to balance?

 

If this helps, pretend that you are talking to someone who thinks that the current system has no flaws & is wonderful. What arguments would you use to convince them that they are wrong...simply pointing out examples of different scaling isn't going to convince them, unless you can explain why that is a bad thing.

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