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Progression Double-Monetized in 6.0?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Progression Double-Monetized in 6.0?

robertthebard's Avatar


robertthebard
06.24.2019 , 10:52 AM | #61
Quote: Originally Posted by FlatTax View Post
Ok, there's a lot here, so let's recap:

You continue to suggest XP boosts and other items in this game are P2W. They aren't.
Let's look where we're at: The devs have announced new end-game gear (Amps) that provides peak performance. They've cynically called it 'optional' and 'not necessary,' while simultaneously downplaying the importance of a gearing system they're aggressively re-monetizing (Command/Renown drops).

There's little doubt double-boosted Renown drops will be the primary feeder for Amps, and we'll be left needing two simultaneous, compounding, monetized consumables to un-nerf our gearing, even after a subscription.

To head off criticism, the corporate communication strategy is pretty clear: highly-monetized end-game gear is framed as optional, not-necessary stuff from a secondary system. Nothing to see here; move along...

No doubt Amps and Tacticals will be available through other gameplay, but double-boosted Renown drops need only be highly efficient to create a tremendous pay-to-win problem.

XP boosts can be purchased, but are also awarded regularly in-game:
It doesn't matter if monetized gearing is largely circumventable (a big 'if' for 6.0); its mere existence is a moral problem, and evidence of the abuse we're being groomed for.

Watch the documentary Leaving Neverland; it's an amazing parable about excusing the crossing of bright lines. Microtransactions feed gearing. The bright line has been crossed. When the lights go out, we'll be getting FIFA'd.

Again: Whether it's Michael Jackson, or EA/BioWare, the moral obligation is for powerful people not to solicit inappropriate things from others.

Stat-based gear cannot be purchased with real cash; only awarded through play:
Oh boy. Microtransactions feed stat-based gearing. It's the bright line that should never be crossed. Suggesting that obscuring game mechanics make it ok is no different than any other claim that money laundering legitimizes an illicit practice. It doesn't.

All CM Items Can Be Acquired In Game:
Secondary grinds for anything cash-purchasable aren't game design. They're burdens to incentivize financial transactions, for items that shouldn't be withheld from a subscriber to begin with. No, the CC ration isn't meaningful.

Should I have to slog through everything slowly all over again every time I want try something new, even if I'm willing to pay for the option not to?
You're already paying handsomely. Subscribers should receive the cash-purchasable progression rate. If it's too fast for your playstyle, it could be nerfed for free, with something like the Gree gadget already in-game.

Should anything be withheld from the F2P players? If so, why? Why not make all of the items in the CM free to everyone? Why even require a sub at all?
There's nothing arbitrary about a subscription. Nothing is free, and I expect to pay for a quality game. The demo ('F2P') version is crippled to incentivize subscriptions, and that's fine. What I have a problem with is monetizing in-game advantages on top of a monetized 'premium' experience.

I have a smaller, but still real concern, with withholding amenities from subscribers, who pay $155.88+ a year, year over year. Needless to say, we're not getting two AAA titles worth of content a year.

Unintended Consequences:
No, there isn't any justification for pay-walling basic account management. It's as shameful as the sale of gambling products.
So I typed out a really long, point by point reply, and then my router took a dive and had to be reset. However, this whole wall of text can be summed up with one line: "I pay a sub, so everything they ever make for this game should be free, including services that every other MMO charges for" such as name changes. No. A sub does not entitle you to any of these privileges, such as name changes on whatever, or cosmetic armors/mounts/weapons etc. The only thing that does that is your sense of entitlement.

You agree to the terms of the sub when you pay it. How do you come around to the conclusion that you're entitled to anything above and beyond what it's listing? IF you decide that it's not worth the money, there's nobody sitting in your living room with a shot gun, forcing you to pay it. Stop paying, drop back to preferred, and enjoy all those perks you don't get any more. This whole thread is based on "I want everything not covered in my sub for free, and because it's not, it's bad".
Quote: Originally Posted by Transcendent View Post
Also, just a small point. Why should anyone who plays this game exclusively for any particular type of content, have to run a different type of content just to earn gear? What is that attitude all about?

FlatTax's Avatar


FlatTax
06.24.2019 , 04:29 PM | #62
Quote: Originally Posted by robertthebard View Post
So I typed out a really long, point by point reply, and then my router took a dive and had to be reset. However, this whole wall of text can be summed up with one line: "I pay a sub, so everything they ever make for this game should be free, including services that every other MMO charges for" such as name changes. No. A sub does not entitle you to any of these privileges, such as name changes on whatever, or cosmetic armors/mounts/weapons etc. The only thing that does that is your sense of entitlement.

You agree to the terms of the sub when you pay it. How do you come around to the conclusion that you're entitled to anything above and beyond what it's listing? IF you decide that it's not worth the money, there's nobody sitting in your living room with a shot gun, forcing you to pay it. Stop paying, drop back to preferred, and enjoy all those perks you don't get any more. This whole thread is based on "I want everything not covered in my sub for free, and because it's not, it's bad".
I characterize my position a little differently:

"I pay $155.88 a year, every year, for a 'Premium' experience. It ought not subject me to pay-to-win transactions, pay-walled account management, withheld amenities, and gambling products."
(written in gold to reflect the divine glow of its truth)

I understand the terms of service. I'd rather advocate for positive change than walk away.

robertthebard's Avatar


robertthebard
06.25.2019 , 09:45 AM | #63
Quote: Originally Posted by FlatTax View Post
I characterize my position a little differently:

"I pay $155.88 a year, every year, for a 'Premium' experience. It ought not subject me to pay-to-win transactions, pay-walled account management, withheld amenities, and gambling products."
(written in gold to reflect the divine glow of its truth)

I understand the terms of service. I'd rather advocate for positive change than walk away.
"Gimme gimme gimme" isn't positive change. The premium experience that you are entitled to is laid out in the sub details. Again, there is no P2W, you can achieve anything that someone buying the boosts can, w/out spending a dime, even under the current system, where the end game boosts are available for in game currency, from an in game vendor, as well as physically dropping from the crates, meaning one can procure these items w/out any MTXs at all.

Your account management should never be free, at least in regard to changing a name, or transfers, or what have you. True story, you're not subjected to gambling products. I don't even use the sub stipend to purchase the loot crates, and it hasn't adversely affected my gameplay at all. So you say "divine truth", and I say "attempting to impersonate staff".
Quote: Originally Posted by Transcendent View Post
Also, just a small point. Why should anyone who plays this game exclusively for any particular type of content, have to run a different type of content just to earn gear? What is that attitude all about?

FlatTax's Avatar


FlatTax
06.25.2019 , 03:47 PM | #64
Quote: Originally Posted by robertthebard View Post
"Gimme gimme gimme" isn't positive change. The premium experience that you are entitled to is laid out in the sub details. Again, there is no P2W, you can achieve anything that someone buying the boosts can, w/out spending a dime, even under the current system, where the end game boosts are available for in game currency, from an in game vendor, as well as physically dropping from the crates, meaning one can procure these items w/out any MTXs at all.

Your account management should never be free, at least in regard to changing a name, or transfers, or what have you. True story, you're not subjected to gambling products. I don't even use the sub stipend to purchase the loot crates, and it hasn't adversely affected my gameplay at all. So you say "divine truth", and I say "attempting to impersonate staff".
Advantage-producing microtransactions are pay-to-win. SWTOR has them. Secondary grinds are irrelevant.

We're all subject to the impact of SWTOR's gambling products, whether we buy them or not.

6.0 looks to be more problematically monetized than SWTOR is now. I'm not asking for 'gimmies;' I'm advocating for ethics reforms.
(Woah, the golden glow of divine truth, again!)

robertthebard's Avatar


robertthebard
06.26.2019 , 07:45 AM | #65
Quote: Originally Posted by FlatTax View Post
Advantage-producing microtransactions are pay-to-win. SWTOR has them. Secondary grinds are irrelevant.

We're all subject to the impact of SWTOR's gambling products, whether we buy them or not.

6.0 looks to be more problematically monetized than SWTOR is now. I'm not asking for 'gimmies;' I'm advocating for ethics reforms.
(Woah, the golden glow of divine truth, again!)
I see, playing the game is irrelevant. This is your "secondary grind" after all, since the required currencies to purchase these items in game come from playing the game as intended. That's sort of revealing, isn't it. So I logged in and played around for about 3 hours yesterday, and never once had my gameplay impacted by the loot crates being in the store. My repair droid didn't suddenly start charging more for repairs, and travel didn't suddenly quadruple in price. The perks from my Legacy didn't suddenly quadruple in price either, so loot boxes being in the store had literally 0 impact on me. It impacts you because of exactly "gimme", since you believe you're entitled to those items for free.

Again, "But I pay a sub, those items should be free to me" isn't "ethics reform", it's "gimme". Insisting that you're entitled to more than what's listed on the page as perks for your sub isn't ethics reform, in fact, I'd say that's pretty unethical; you agree to Terms and Conditions, and then insist that it's not fair, trying to manipulate the system so you can get your stuff for free.
Quote: Originally Posted by Transcendent View Post
Also, just a small point. Why should anyone who plays this game exclusively for any particular type of content, have to run a different type of content just to earn gear? What is that attitude all about?

casirabit's Avatar


casirabit
06.26.2019 , 07:56 AM | #66
Quote: Originally Posted by FlatTax View Post
Advantage-producing microtransactions are pay-to-win. SWTOR has them. Secondary grinds are irrelevant.

We're all subject to the impact of SWTOR's gambling products, whether we buy them or not.

6.0 looks to be more problematically monetized than SWTOR is now. I'm not asking for 'gimmies;' I'm advocating for ethics reforms.
(Woah, the golden glow of divine truth, again!)
Just because you decide to put something in gold text doesn't make it true.
A girl should be two things: classy and fabulous. A girl should also always be a lady even when arguing. If you like redheads click my Referral link Referral: http://www.swtor.com/r/VkfKqj https://poshmark.com/closet/tmcevoy1121

DarkTergon's Avatar


DarkTergon
06.26.2019 , 08:11 AM | #67
This game was never pay to win, it's pay to look cool. totally different. A sub, or preff can run along side each other, do the same things (story wise), and pretty much level the same, some slight differences, speed, etc. But it doesn't impact the game, or how they succeed. You don't need to spend RL cash to get anything in this game, it can all be bought with credits, which are earned in game
No Idea if people use these, but if so, here's my referral link
http://www.swtor.com/r/jFXFFQ

MacCleoud's Avatar


MacCleoud
06.26.2019 , 09:26 AM | #68
Quote: Originally Posted by FlatTax View Post
Advantage-producing microtransactions are pay-to-win. SWTOR has them. Secondary grinds are irrelevant.

We're all subject to the impact of SWTOR's gambling products, whether we buy them or not.

6.0 looks to be more problematically monetized than SWTOR is now. I'm not asking for 'gimmies;' I'm advocating for ethics reforms.
(Woah, the golden glow of divine truth, again!)
So...... by your logic, since someone using an XP boost is advantage-producing (Even though crates have already been said to be a SUPPLEMENTARY method to gear, not the primary as you are trying to make them.......unless of course you have no friends and can't get into any of the end-game content because everyone has put you on ignore for some reason I honestly can't phathom at this point) then what about people that put in more time? That is advantage producing as well, and as we all know.... time is money my friend.

So, I agree with you 10000000%. We need to stop the sale of XP boosts, and people are only allowed to play 3 hours a week because that is all I have time to play and anything more than that 3 hours is advantage-producing. I pay the same amount a month as them but don't get the amount of time to put in.

Toraak's Avatar


Toraak
06.26.2019 , 10:32 AM | #69
Quote: Originally Posted by FlatTax View Post
I characterize my position a little differently:

"I pay $155.88 a year, every year, for a 'Premium' experience. It ought not subject me to pay-to-win transactions, pay-walled account management, withheld amenities, and gambling products."
(written in gold to reflect the divine glow of its truth)

I understand the terms of service. I'd rather advocate for positive change than walk away.
The only way it would be P2W is this: I pay BW $100 and I get a full set of Max ilevel gear in my inventory.

Paying to speed up a grind is not mandatory, it is an option only. You are not required to purchase XP boosts (I know I won't since I get so many of them from the class stories for FREE). I don't feel compelled to use 2 XP buffs at all. I'll still get geared out regardless.

And as someone else said, Galactic Renown is meant as a Supplementary Gearing system. You'll still get gear from doing Operations, Unranked PvP, and Ranked PvP.
Referral Link: www.swtor.com/r/Q4Tp3P

lightSaberAddiCt's Avatar


lightSaberAddiCt
06.26.2019 , 11:20 AM | #70
Wow everyone bit this bait hook, line and sinker. What it comes down to is that a couple of posters don't want a CM, that someway in their minds it is P2W. The will keep baiting this and people keep replying. The real question you need to ask yourself is if you believe or don't believe that the game is worth the sub, with the availability of the cash shop (because if you think its going anywhere your sadly mistaken. This is EA people). Or, that the month sub isn't worth it, and move on.

But this horse has been dead for days, it is really starting to stink up the place...

Personally, I am fine with the CM, it is all vanity crap, and if your smart you can make 10-15m just off the 500cc you get each month. I get to just play the game because I don't chase after credits because of this. But I suppose they will try to say that I am P2W because I don't have to spend all my time sniffing up creds in game because of how I use my monthly CC, who knows.....maybe I am an exploiter!
Just Click It for Free Stuff I need the CC
http://www.swtor.com/r/Hj4n32