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Dual Targeting, are we missing something?


StealthStalker

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This post was fairly active on the previous boards, so I'm bringing it back on the other side. Minor adjustments here and there due to the original post existing during beta and the NDA, otherwise it's in its entirety. Be sure to scan the FAQ located in the latter half of the post, it will probably cover most inquiries.

 

So what exactly is Dual Targeting? You have 2 targets at all times, one offensive and one defensive. That's it, it's that simple. Any offensive ability (CC, Damage) is used on the offensive target. Any defensive ability (Heals, buffs) are used on the defensive target.

 

You can freely change these targets with any normal targeting method such as clicking, unit frames, macros, or assisting (or "aiding" to assist someone's friendly target). No macros are required, no keybinds, no unnecessary actions.

 

Here is a link to a thread I created on the RIFT boards back in January, on the very same topic. That thread received an enormous amount of support, as well as quite a few who didn't understand it. Thus, it's a great read.

 

Also in that thread I gave a link to a couple of videos showing Dual Targeting in action (footage from Warhammer), here are those links:

 

Feel free to mute the music, it may not be to everyone's liking :)

 

Things to note about the game and my UI, if you aren't familiar with WAR:

 

At the middle of the screen, you see two hot bars. Below that are the Unitframes.

 

The central frame is my Player frame, my HP and Energy pool.

The left frame (green rectangle with names/buffs above) is my "Defensive" target. This is where any target I select that is considered Friendly is shown. Friendly players, NPC's, etc.

The right frame (red rectangle with names/buffs above it) is my "Offensive" target. This is where any target I select that is considered hostile is shown. Enemy players, enemy pets, and neutral targets will also be displayed here.

Below all of that are my Raid Frames, for my current raid group. This is where I predominantly acquire my friendly targets.

 

Selecting a friendly, or enemy target has no bearing on the opposite target, and I do not have to use any macro or 'hotkey' to set either target. It's a click on the player in game, or by using an /assist or /aid macro, tab target, etc. Throughout the encounter I continuously change enemy/friendly targets to Res/Damage/heal as needed. Again, this has no bearing on the opposite target.

 

You can't accomplish this on the fly with the current targeting system in RIFT, so please let me have my dual targets and you can keep your outdated focus/target of target if you wish. I'll stick to my planning ahead and pro-active targeting.

 

This is something that's extremely important, and anyone familiar with how combat is going to work in the game (if you've seen the footage released, or have play tested it yourself at a Gaming Convention), should support whole-heartedly.

 

Common Misconceptions:

 

Remember, the following quotes were mostly in regards to RIFT. I'm not sure if SWTOR has Focus targeting or not, but this is just part of the "FAQ/Misconceptions" that may appear in discussion, thus I'm including it.

 

Q. Why do I need Dual Targeting when I have mouseover healing? Seems like it's better.

 

A. Dual Targeting and Mouse-over casting are not mutually exclusive. Mouse-over casting is a great feature, and I support it 100%. If anything, both of these mechanics compliment each other very well.

 

 

Q. Isn't your focus target the same thing as dual targeting? I've been wondering about this for a long time. Maybe I'm understanding it all wrong, but focus targeting seems to be exactly what you all want and its in the game already.

 

A. When you set a focus target, what does it personally require you to do? Key bind? Macro? Right click/set focus target? How do you go about setting yours? Once you have it set, how do you cast spells or abilities on that target? Do you have a modifier keybind (shift/alt/control) so that when you use that modifier, any ability key pressed is then used on your focus target?

 

Dual Targeting allows you to have a "focus target", without ever having to waste an extra keypress or macro/bind to change the said target, or to cast on said target.

 

It's basically a dynamic focus target that you change when you want. You can freely change your offensive or defensive target without affecting the other. No extra keybinds required, no extra work for selecting or casting.

 

 

Q. So with dual targeting, you'd be limited to one friendly and one enemy target, right?

 

A. Yes. That's the downside if any, the next point is that: It can exist next to a ToT or focus target if you wanted it to. Although, that could lead to crowding.

 

 

Q. PvE wise, I can't think of anything more than a couple gimmicks where a dps would need DT at all. Healing, maybe, but usually only to keep an eye on certain enemy/boss cast bar, and even then focus works just fine. Tanking, maybe if there's a specific party member you want to always be ready to protect (pally bubble?), but even that seems like a focus macro would work just as well.

 

A. One thing to keep in mind is that there are a very large variety of defensive abilities, and they may not be on such a cooldown as the pally abilities. So yeah, while focus targeting wouldn't be so bad for the Paladin, another class may make extremely good use of it.

 

eg: In Warhammer, Guard was a 50% reduction in damage for the targeted friendly player, in PvE it was the same but with an addition of transfering half the threat to the tank as well. It had no CD and could be swapped instantly. This meant a tank in PvP (or PvE even) can actively swap his guard depending on the situation, and use it much more frequently than a Paladin would have used his abilities.

 

Dual Targeting is only as useful as you allow it to be, just like some people play WoW without even utilizing the focus target system I'm sure. Whether you use it actively to cast on both targets, or if you simply use it to keep the target reticule over a friendly player to know where a specific group member is at any given time.

 

So, it's tough to say just how useful Dual Targeting truly would be for any specific class or player.

 

 

Q. And what about (wow examples) things like Penance or Holy Shock, where the spell does different things depending on if the target is friendly or hostile?

 

A. You're correct, those abilities would not work in a Dual Target environment. At the same time, new abilities do open up so it's a bit of give and take. Leeching abilities, such as life drains that channel HP from your enemy target to your friendly, and similar effects become available.

 

So, perhaps Holy Shock could then be adapted to work in tandem and affect both friendly/enemy at the same time, and speccing into one tree or another determines how potent each half of the ability is.

 

This is probably the only direct argument against Dual Targeting, but I feel there's a reasonable way to fix this issue. The pros far, far outweigh the cons.

 

 

Q. There's no hybrid abilities that make use of such a mechanic. So why is Dual Targeting needed?

 

A. From what I've been able to gather nearly every class will have an abundance of offensive abilities, even if they're primarily specced to do a defensive/support role. I'm going to assume even if you have a majority of offensive abilities, you will also have access to a few defensive ones as well.

 

What this means is that in-between your normal duties, you may have other things to do. Healers may have CC, tanks may have buffs/defensive abilities for friendlies. If that doesn't scream hybrid, what does?

 

As mentioned directly above, it's up to you as an individual to utilize it effectively or not.

 

 

Q. Dual targeting is complicated, I don't think it will be very newbie friendly.

A. It's more complicated than focus targeting, target of target, or cast through target mechanics?

 

Select a friendly target, and any defensive ability is cast on them; select an enemy target and any hostile action is cast on them.

 

This is more complicated than needing to use a hotkey to 1) set the focus target, 2) cast on the focus target with the new modifier that's required to be used with any future keypress.

 

What about having to rely on the person you have targeted making the choice for you because you only have access to Cast-forwarding? What if the mob you have targeted is currently targeting someone that isn't in danger of needing a heal... so on and do forth.

 

I'm not quite sure you understand the concept, please try to browse back over the information provided.

 

 

Q. Dual Targeting makes things too easy

 

A. Nearly every game today uses Focus Targeting, Target of Target, and Cast through Targeting. Frankly, the latter two make things "too easy". Cast through targeting means you always cast on whatever your target is. You make no choice, you just press the button and hope for the best. At least with focus targeting one has to choose their own targets.

 

The problem is you're battling the UI for half of the time as you need to setup a focus target and then can only cast your abilities on that target (using another modifier) unless you change it again, with your hotkey or macro.

 

So tell me, what are you here for? Are we here to play the game, enjoy combat/encounters, or are we here to battle the interface? I know in my head who, or what I want to cast on relatively quickly. The UI hindering this by being bulky and requiring unnecessary actions doesn't make any sense. So please, less fighting the UI and more actual fighting enemy units.

 

 

Q. Can you give more examples of how Dual Targeting can be used by anyone, not just a healer?

 

A. Of course, here are a couple more examples.

 

Tanks & Guarding

 

In PvP for example, as a tank you can play a variety of ways. You can be support/protection for your backfield, or you can play offensively while on the melee train, yet you still have access to guard.

 

In the first situation, you will pro-actively guard the people that you know will be attacked or are currently under attack. You can swap this guard as needed on the fly and quickly because dual targeting doesn't require macros/keybinds. All the while you're still attacking the enemy targets freely, to CC, damage, and harass as applicable.

 

In the second situation, the same principle applies but you may not be needing to change your guard target as often. Keeping the person you're guarding targeted though, while on the train, will help you keep track of their movements due to the easily identifiable reticule they have above them.

 

DPS

 

It's very important for everyone to know where some people are in any given battle. As a DPS, your primary goal is to kill things. That doesn't mean you can't provide help and support for your squishy backfield when the need arises. With Dual Targeting you can easily target someone friendly to get your reticule and a bearing on their location. Keeping tabs on your healer and knowing exactly where they are when they call for help can be invaluable. This can be done while you are doing your normal duties and DPS'ing the enemy.

 

Not only can you keep track of your squishies or important targets, but you can easily just keep track of your Guard. Knowing where your guard is at all times is very important for a DPS class who has the luxury of someone Guarding them. So you keep on keepin' on, while keeping an eye on your Guard so you're never out of position.

 

---

 

In the end, I hope this feature is already included and this is just a post that's inconsequential. If it isn't yet, let's hope it's something they could seriously consider even though we're already on the cusp of release. Whether that means some time post launch, or surprise us prior to that.

 

 

Update

11/18/2011

 

Well, now that it can be discussed a little more freely. I still stand adamantly by this feature, but it'll probably never exist due to the design of two abilities, and probably more.

 

Trooper: Combat Support Cell, and how it affects Hammer Shot, and the equivalent for Bounty Hunter.

 

Combat Support Cell, which causes Hammer Shot to charge the player’s blaster, increasing all damage and healing dealt and allowing Hammer Shot to heal friendly targets, has been added.

 

*How does this work?

 

If you target a friendly and use Hammer Shot, you heal them.

If you target an enemy and use Hammer Shot, you damage them.

 

It's basically "Holy Shock" or "Penance" in the FAQ. With that one ability, we really couldn't have true dual targeting because it's a base class ability. I'm a bit disappointed to say the least, but at least it's not an insurmountable fix. The question is, would the fix ever even be considered?

 

I'd much rather have two base free ability (like the other 4 healers), than waste the potential of Dual Targeting. What do I mean by that? Here's how the Operative compares:

 

Free Attack: Rifle Shot

Free Heal: Diagnostic Scan

 

Yeah, two different abilities, but in both examples they do the same thing: Free "attack" and free "heal".

 

I'll be responding some time in the near future regarding my experience playing various classes, and why dual targeting would have made them all a more enjoyable experience.

 

*Note: This is how this ability worked (when named Kolto Cell), I have not seen it actually in action with its rename and slight change.

Edited by StealthStalker
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This system was the reason I actually liked being a healer in pvp. Keep your tank targeted while you could use cc or a dmg attack on an enemy attacking you from behind.

 

Some may say it is not necessary or that it takes away the skill required to heal in pvp, but from my personal experience it just made it easier for me to use my all of my given abilities. If you can use your abilities on defensive and offensive targets without dual targeting, then I would call that skill. If you make good use of a dual targeting system to use abilities on defensive and offensive targets, I would also call that skill.

 

Supporting this system!

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If nothing else a 'Target through' would be good. Ie. You target the tank, offensive stuff hits the target he's hitting, defensive stuff hits the tank. Coming from EQ2 I constantly try to kill the tank by hitting my offensive spells (nothing happens :p)

 

I dislike cast-forwarding because I like having complete control over my targets, both offensive and defensive.

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Warhammer Online has this feature and I really liked it when I was playing that MMO.

 

I think having a Focus target is less generally useful but it works in specific situations. I don't think its well implemented in SWTOR.

 

I find the lack of Target of Target to be a glaring omission.

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@OP

 

YES! This feature ASTOUNDED me when I was playing Warhammer. And if WoW had it, disc priest would require 50% less clicking. This feature is a MUST for any hardcore gamer and any good healers from Warhammer would agree!

 

I like to think of it as an actively changing focus target for offensive targets (Healers will know what I'm talking about) without having to untarget a friendly. This helps when you are a class that has to juggle heals and CC/attacks like the Sith Inquisitor.

Edited by Ovanmaru
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@OP

 

YES! This feature ASTOUNDED me when I was playing Warhammer. And if WoW had it, disc priest would require 50% less clicking. This feature is a MUST for any hardcore gamer and any good healers from Warhammer would agree!

 

Any true hardcore gamer is going to do what he can within the limits of the game he or she chooses not demand the game changes to suit their whim. Sure, it'd be a nice addition, but it isn't a necessity.

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Any true hardcore gamer is going to do what he can within the limits of the game he or she chooses not demand the game changes to suit their whim. Sure, it'd be a nice addition, but it isn't a necessity.

 

One word: Addons

 

They mod the playstyle of the game and some healers DO rely too heavily on crap like "Healbot". However this is acceptable and dual targets is not? I'm sorry but that seems a bit hypocritical.

Edited by Ovanmaru
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One word: Addons

 

They mod the playstyle of the game and some healers DO rely too heavily on crap like "Healbot". However this is acceptable and dual targets is not?

 

What about them? You need them to play the game too? Again, another nice feature but totally not necessary.

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What about them? You need them to play the game too? Again, another nice feature but totally not necessary.

 

Nice, please flame more.

 

I never said I perosnally use nor needed them to heal.

 

There are a list of features that the game dose not "NEED" but still exist. Example: percentages and exact hp amounts on health bars. Not needed yet still a feature in the game.

 

We are not DEMANDING that this feature be added now. We only ask that it be given a fair chance to be added.

Edited by Ovanmaru
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Nice, please flame more.

 

I never said I perosnally use nor needed them to heal.

 

Uh, you said, and I quote:

 

One word: Addons

 

 

That's all, originally. You edited your post to add your other comments after mine was posted. Stop being so sensitive.

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Uh, you said, and I quote:

 

 

 

 

That's all, originally. You edited your post to add your other comments after mine was posted. Stop being so sensitive.

 

I was merely stating that all this feature is...is an advanced addon? Problem?

 

I'd appreciate it if you actually read my posts :)

Edited by Ovanmaru
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I do, and you have been adding to them after posting. However, i agree with you for the most part.

 

Yeah sorry, I edit my posts too much XD

 

My revised point (For the record):

 

Healbot allows you to cast spells on friendly players WITHOUT even targeting them...allowing you to use your 1 target for offensive targets only.

 

This feature will actually require you to TARGET both your defensive and offensive targets.

 

Healbot is an accepted addon while dual targeting gets over looked entirely. Maybe it's just me but I feel like Healbot requires less skill to use than this feature...at least if it was added in WoW.

 

Why am I using WoW as an example for all of this nonsense? Because it is the MMORPG most of you are knowledgeable with.

Edited by Ovanmaru
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All Healbot is, along with VuhDo, Clique, and the like is a simplified way of combining mouseover macros with unit frame and buff/debuff information. Honestly, if we had mouseover casting in SWTOR we wouldn't need dual targeting. Although with the focus we sort of have dual targeting, but we really should have dual unit frames, one for main target and one for focus target that appears when we set a focus target.

 

That all being said, I'm pro dual targeting, I loved it in WAR. We don't need it, but it would be a very nice ease of life addition.

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That all being said, I'm pro dual targeting, I loved it in WAR. We don't need it, but it would be a very nice ease of life addition.

 

You might not need it, but after leveling an Operative up so far, I sure do. It's rather crazy though, that this is the most fun I've had leveling with how horrible the UI is in general.

 

Fix the UI, with or without dual targeting (preferably with!), and... well I can only imagine.

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  • 3 weeks later...
Dual targeting also opens the door for a new sort of abilities to exist. For example, in WAR there were skills that debuffed/damaged your offensive target while buffing/healing your defensive one. Something like that can't be done with mousover targeting (it can be done with focus target, but only if you decide to mainstream it into the control scheme, if you get my drift). It was cool and provided some healer builds with just a touch of hybridisation, without changing their main role. It made them much more fun to play, at least it did for me.
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Dual targeting also opens the door for a new sort of abilities to exist. For example, in WAR there were skills that debuffed/damaged your offensive target while buffing/healing your defensive one. Something like that can't be done with mousover targeting (it can be done with focus target, but only if you decide to mainstream it into the control scheme, if you get my drift). It was cool and provided some healer builds with just a touch of hybridisation, without changing their main role. It made them much more fun to play, at least it did for me.

 

I agree, and covered this in the link I have to the RIFT forums. I originally had it in this post, but due to cutting down in a little bit of bloat ended up taking this portion out. Perhaps I'll re-add it.

 

Life leech abilities are quite awesome.

 

Imagine playing a Chloromancer in RIFT with such a feature, instead of the incarnation they have currently.

Edited by StealthStalker
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  • 2 weeks later...

Definitely against this idea..

It would create way too many complications.

And I don't support the changing of so many things just for a targetting mechanic.

 

Currently, if I have an enemy targetted and I cast a heal, it heals me.

Your suggestion kills that with a DT.

What do you suggest next?

Targetting yourself as the DT? Similar to needing to hit a modifier.

Setting yourself as FT? Modifier.

 

Right now I can have a target and a focus target.

The focus target modifier can be ANY KEY that I want.

It need only to be held down, and whatever I'm hitting is casted on the FT.

So if I have an enemy targetted, and I cast a heal with no FT modifier.

It heals me.

If I hold the FT Modifier, heals my FT.

 

No need for dual targetting.

Every environment requires something to be casted on yourself, this creates a problem with any friendly abilities that you need to cast on yourself with a DT.

I'm willing to guarantee the second this entered the game, there would be A LOT of complaints that they continually cast things on other people instead of themselves.

Not to mention setting up an FT is as easy as setting a DT depending on your keybind.

 

Let's use basic keybinds just as an example.

Swap/Set Focus Target (It swaps OR sets your focus target.....)

Focus Target Modifier (Holding this applies whatever you cast to your focus target.)

 

Swap/Set - 1

Focus Target Modifer - 2

 

You target Bob, Bob is a friendly.

You press 1.

Bob is now your Focus Target, and no longer your target.

 

You target Billy, Billy is an enemy.

You attack Billy.

Bob is almost dead.

You hold 2 and press whichever key your heal is on.

As long as you hit the heal key WITH the focus modifier key held down, Billy will be healed by it even if you let go while it's casting.

 

HERE IS THE VERY IMPORTANT PART WHICH MANY DON'T SEEM TO KNOW ABOUT:

You currently have Billy targetted.

You press 1.

Billy is now your Focus Target.

Bob is now your target.

You press 1 again.

Bob is your focus target again.

Billy is now your target again.

 

If you have a target AND a Focus Target, it litterally swaps them.

In which case, you don't even need a focus modifier if you don't want one.

Whenever you press your swap, your target becomes your focus and your focus becomes your target.

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Definitely against this idea..

It would create way too many complications.

And I don't support the changing of so many things just for a targetting mechanic.

 

Currently, if I have an enemy targetted and I cast a heal, it heals me.

Your suggestion kills that with a DT.

What do you suggest next?

Targetting yourself as the DT? Similar to needing to hit a modifier.

Setting yourself as FT? Modifier.

 

This only happens provided you have someone else as a current friendly target, yes. If you do not have any friendly targeted, it works the same. If I do have some other friendly targeted it's still no different than the current system in which you have to then target yourself (or use a self cast modifier) so....?

 

Are you sure you know exactly how this works?

 

Unfortunately many of things (like this) that you've brought up I've addressed in previous threads that continue to get removed (beta boards, old official boards).

 

Allowing this to be an option eliminates any concern you have. I can choose to target how I wish, you keep your choice.

 

Right now I can have a target and a focus target.

The focus target modifier can be ANY KEY that I want.

It need only to be held down, and whatever I'm hitting is casted on the FT.

So if I have an enemy targetted, and I cast a heal with no FT modifier.

It heals me.

If I hold the FT Modifier, heals my FT.

 

I target a friendly, I now have a friendly targeted.

I target an enemy, I now have an enemy target AND a friendly target.

 

I cast an offensive spell, it goes to the enemy target.

I cast a friendly spell, it goes to my friendly target.

If I do not have a friendly target, that spell defaults to me like it does currently.

 

I tab target or select a new enemy. I now have a new enemy target, but the same friendly target.

I target a new friendly target, I now have a new friendly target but the enemy target remains the same.

 

I have no needed a modifier to set, change, or cast. No modifiers used at any time. The only time I would need to use a modifier (or hotkey) to change targets is if I wanted to target myself for heals, in which case I have a couple of other options too:

 

Sticky enemy target, non stick friendly target. Clicking somewhere in the world that isn't a player or object clears my friendly target, but keeps my enemy target unless I press escape to clear it.

 

Simply press F1 (or whatever you bind your selftarget key to), or click my character window (or character in game if that setting is available), or various other methods.

 

Every environment requires something to be casted on yourself, this creates a problem with any friendly abilities that you need to cast on yourself with a DT.

I'm willing to guarantee the second this entered the game, there would be A LOT of complaints that they continually cast things on other people instead of themselves.

 

How is this any different than the current system? If I currently have a friendly player targeted, I can not cast anything on myself unless I use a self-cast modifier (is that even in game?). This argument doesn't make any sense.

 

Right now, this very instant, if I target another friendly target I can not cast on myself. You do realize this right?

 

Not to mention setting up an FT is as easy as setting a DT depending on your keybind.

 

What? DT doesn't require setting anything up at all. I covered that above already.

 

I target an enemy, it's my enemy target.

I target a friendly, it's my friendly target.

 

I'm now done, and can change this with any new target selection. I require no further action beyond targeting them.

 

Let's use basic keybinds just as an example.

Swap/Set Focus Target (It swaps OR sets your focus target.....)

Focus Target Modifier (Holding this applies whatever you cast to your focus target.)

 

Swap/Set - 1

Focus Target Modifer - 2

 

You target Bob, Bob is a friendly.

You press 1.

Bob is now your Focus Target, and no longer your target.

 

You target Billy, Billy is an enemy.

You attack Billy.

Bob is almost dead.

You hold 2 and press whichever key your heal is on.

As long as you hit the heal key WITH the focus modifier key held down, Billy will be healed by it even if you let go while it's casting.

 

HERE IS THE VERY IMPORTANT PART WHICH MANY DON'T SEEM TO KNOW ABOUT:

You currently have Billy targetted.

You press 1.

Billy is now your Focus Target.

Bob is now your target.

You press 1 again.

Bob is your focus target again.

Billy is now your target again.

 

If you have a target AND a Focus Target, it litterally swaps them.

In which case, you don't even need a focus modifier if you don't want one.

Whenever you press your swap, your target becomes your focus and your focus becomes your target.

 

Great, let's look at it from my perspective with true Dual Targeting.

 

I target Billy and start nukin' him to death. Good times.

I target Bob and start healing him. Good times.

 

I can now do this with any ability, and no targetswap/focus target bind or modifiers are needed. Indefinitely.

 

Here comes along Charlie, he's a new enemy target. I'm going to let Bob handle Billy, so I now tab target (or click on) Charlie.

 

I now have Charlie targeted and start nuking him.

I heal Bob, he's getting low.

 

I can now continue to heal bob, or nuke Charlie, and I still do not require any FT/DT macros or modifiers. I press my hotkey for heals, and they heal Bob. I press my nukes, cc, they hit Charlie.

 

If Charlie shows up in your example, you must ensure Bob is your Focus Target, and then target Charlie and begin swapping between them.

 

If then Dave shows up, a new friendly target...? You now must choose who you want as your Focus Target, Bob or Charlie.

 

I would simply target Dave, keeping Charlie my Enemy target (or Bob, if I've swapped back).

 

If there are 2 enemy and 2 friendly targets in the battle, I can freely choose between them without any modifiers or keybinds needed. Additionally the enemy or friendly choices are independent of one another. You must decide which one you want as a FT, and continue swapping then between the other 3.

 

All the while you have to continue using a modifier to cast on the FT at any given time (or use the keybind to swap, heh). Am I wrong?

 

 

The only argument I will concede to you is this:

 

I can only have an enemy target and friendly target at any given time. I can not have two friendly or two enemy targets. This was mentioned in the OP.

Edited by StealthStalker
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I'm not going to lie and say I read any of this but it sounds like it's be mainly for healers and healers only? Or at least help them the greatest? Not sure I'd want that.

 

Check the bottom half of the OP for a little example of DPS or Tank usage of the system. Frankly, I love it when playing those two roles.

 

Keeping track of a friendly target just by selecting their name from the party frame is invaluable. Easily targeting and knowing where my healer or guard is as a DPS is very handy, and being able to change that without the need of a keybind (Focus Target selection) is even more so.

Edited by StealthStalker
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