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Guardian/Shadow - Tanking - Confusion

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Guardian/Shadow - Tanking - Confusion

ruminate's Avatar


ruminate
01.23.2012 , 12:47 AM | #21
I'd like to know exactly what Assassin priority skill usage you're plotting to come to the conclusion that they have worse AoE threat.

Here's a brainless AoE priority system that anyone can do as a Shadow:

Code:
GCD     Action       Force Total       AoE Threat Coefficient Total
1          Slow T           70                   3.06
2               *              85.6
3               *              100
4               *              100
5               *              100
6           Slow T          70                   6.12
7               *              85.6
8               *              100
vs.

Code:
GCD     Action        Focus       AoE Threat Coefficient Total
1          Saber T         3
2          Leap             7
3          Sweep           6                   2.94
4          Sunder          9              
5          Cyclone         6                   4.46
6          G Slash         4
7          C Focus        10
8          Cyclone         8                    5.98
9          Cyclone         5                    7.5
10        Sunder          8

Gankstah's Avatar


Gankstah
01.23.2012 , 01:47 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by ruminate View Post
I'd like to know...
Shouldn't Wither/ST be 3.45 coefficient?

((Wither Base 1.18 * 1.3 Mounting Darkness) * 1.5 Wither Threat Modifier)*1.5 Stance Modifier= 3.45

Anyway, all I did was plot what Arbegla posited in this post.
  • (Smash Base 1.35*( Decimate .3 + Heavy Handed .15))*1.5 Stance Modifier= 2.94
  • (Sweeping Base .88 * Heavy Handed 1.15)* 1.5 Stance Modifier = 1.52
1x Smash + 4x Sweeps = 9.02

Vs.
  • ((Slow Time Base 1.18 * 1.3 Mounting Darkness) * 1.5 Wither Threat Modifier)*1.5 Stance Modifier= 3.45
  • (Whirling Base 0.71 * 1.06 Applied Force)*1.5 Stance Modifier= 1.13
1x Slow Time + 3x Whirling = 6.84

CLEARLY in the given situation he posited Sin/Shadow loses out. Which is why I plotted it out for him. Because it was clear he wasn't actually looking at what he was saying. You can't just say, "Oh, well 3x Whirlings equals more than a smash therefore we win." because no Sin/Shadow in their right mind is going to use 3x Whirling blows consecutively unless they're pulling normal/easy mobs.

In NMM that kind of rotation will get you and your party killed.

Quote: Originally Posted by ruminate View Post
Here's a brainless AoE priority system that anyone can do as a Shadow:
Which will fall behind over time. Your cherry picked presentation illustrates, with my help mind you, one of the Warrior/Guardian's weaknesses: they are back loaded Tanks. Whereas Sins/Shadow's have the potential to be frontloaded tanks. There's a reason I closed out my last post with a "realistic" rotation. And your response was exactly that reason.

So, let's pretend we're going balls to the walls AoE shall we?

Code:
GCD     Action       Force Total       AoE Threat Coefficient Total
1          Slow T           70                   3.06
2          Whirling         45.6                4.19
3          Whirling         20.2                5.32
4               *              35.8                  --
5               *              51.4                  --
6           Slow T          37                   8.38
7               *              52.6                  --
8           Whirling        28.2                9.51
9               *              43.8                  --
10             *              59.4                  --  
11         Slow T          35                   12.57
12         Whirling        0.6                  13.7
vs.

Code:
GCD     Action        Focus       AoE Threat Coefficient Total
1          Saber T         3                      --  
2          Leap              7                     --
3          Sweep           6                   2.94
4          Sunder          9                     --
5          Cyclone         6                   4.46
6          Cyclone         4                   5.98
7          Sunder          6                     --
8          Cyclone         4                   7.5
9          Slash             5                     --
10        Sweep           6                   10.44
11        Sunder          8                      --
12        Cyclone         6                    11.96
Now, the Sin/Shadow is ahead by .74 and is sitting on an empty resource pool. Meanwhile the Warrior/Guardian while being a tad behind is sitting on a 1/2 full resource pool. This is why I said in my last post that OVER TIME the Warrior/Guardian will pull ahead. Even if the Sin/Shadow played it conservative by tossing in discharges (or whatever the Jedi equivalent is) in replacement of Whirling Blows, he would still end up losing out.

It is also why I said that if you plot out a LARGER rotational period (such as 30 seconds, 60 seconds or even a couple minutes) you start to see a much more realistic picture of what's going on. In extremely short fights or coordinated bursts, yes, the Sin/Shadow will be on top. Over a battle of attrition the Warrior/Guardian wins out.

And in Hard/NMM/Ops it's the OVER TIME value which wins the day. There are no "quick pulls" like people are accustomed to encountering in pre 50 flashpoints. This is why you see so many Sins/Shadows complaining on the forums. Because they've just hit 50+ content and are trying to tank it like it's pre 50 content.

That's not going to work.

ruminate's Avatar


ruminate
01.23.2012 , 02:50 AM | #23
I assume all threat coefficients are additive: Wither + Stance

Regardless, Arbegla never suggested the skills you plotted. He compared Sweep vs. Whirling Blow in a vacuum. You added Slow Time and Cyclone Slash into the mix, so I assumed, rightfully, that you were going off your own priority system.

Gankstah's Avatar


Gankstah
01.23.2012 , 02:55 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by ruminate View Post
I assume all threat coefficients are additive: Wither + Stance
Then why did you use multiplicative sums in this post? I'm not trying to call you out, I was just wondering what your thought process was on the matter.

Quote: Originally Posted by ruminate View Post
He compared Sweep vs. Whirling Blow in a vacuum.
Which was a fallacious argument.

A fallacy I outlined for him and other posters like him who were taking a trip to "lala land". That is why reading and understanding a post in it's entirety is important. Context. Anyway, like I said in my previous post, plotting has to be done in these discussions. Otherwise it's just one person shouting at another person, "NO, MY UNREALISTIC MATH IS THE RIGHT MATH!"

ruminate's Avatar


ruminate
01.23.2012 , 03:19 AM | #25
Alright, I see your priority now. But its still flawed, though.

Force Breach has better threat per force than Whirling Blow. And in a situation where you can hit multiple enemies with Whirling Blow/Cyclone Slash, you can also hit them with Overload/Force Wave(better threat per force than Whirling Blow) without hampering your AoE from the knockback.

It also appears that you included Revenge/Courage in the Jugg's priority, but didn't include the Shadow/Assassin's 100% chance to gain 2 force per shield/defense every 1s talent.

The Force regen is a bit off, too. In 12 GCDs, the Shadow/Assassin should have gained 187.2 force(287.2 total force, or 323.2 if you include the defense/shield force gain talent). The skills you listed only used 250 force, but the force at the end shows 0.6.

Quote: Originally Posted by Gankstah View Post
Then why did you use multiplicative sums in this post? I'm not trying to call you out, I was just wondering what your thought process was on the matter.[/I]
I never said anything about bonus damage not being multiplicative.

TheBigGregski's Avatar


TheBigGregski
01.23.2012 , 03:25 AM | #26
I honestly find this thread a bit unreal... You guys are focusing on a "who's got the biggest" point of view, as if two tanks in a same party had to compete for aggro. Seriously is that the most useful thing to do ?

AoE threat needs only to :

1) keep mobs away from your healers - this is quite easy, most of the time simply "tagging" them would do the trick

2) hold them long enough for the aggro ho's to smash them down - a little more complicated sometimes, but you can concentrate on keeping the strong/elite ones, and let your comrades quickly dispatch the lesser crowd

3) react to eventual incoming adds who, like in any given mmo, tend to rush the healers - see point number one

And this third point, my friends, tend to be overlooked in this thread. I'm sure the three tank specs have ways of dealing with these situations. I'm personally comfortable, as a Shadow tank, with a combination of Force Pull, a no-cd whirling blow and TAoEs like force breach and Slow Time, but I'm sure a good Guardian or Vanguard could do the trick.

And as for 60+ seconds AoE aggro situations, I certainly haven't explore all the content of this game, but I still didn't find any, my dear Gankstah (except maybe when I off-tanke the Belsavis World Boss's adds while my buddies beat the crap out of him, and I have all the time in the wolrd to build up aggro)

Gankstah's Avatar


Gankstah
01.23.2012 , 08:21 AM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by ruminate View Post
Force Breach has better threat per force than Whirling Blow. And in a situation where you can hit multiple enemies with Whirling Blow/Cyclone Slash, you can also hit them with Overload/Force Wave...
You may feel free to plot a new rotation which is more force:threat conservative. I'm simply using the powers being stressed in this discussion. I promise you though, over time, the end result will be the same.

Quote:
It also appears that you included Revenge/Courage in the Jugg's priority, but didn't include the Shadow/Assassin's 100% chance to gain 2 force per shield/defense every 1s talent.
The sum between GCDs 2 and 3 is wrong. It's off by 10. The rotation should end with 10.6. That's my bad. This was written at 2am so I'm sure its off. I will fix it tonight after work.

As far as regen goes, I was under the impression that the 15.6 sum included this? 12*1.3=15.6. Am I incorrect? I'm posting on a cell atm so I don't have the luxury to swap between websites for a search.

ScarletBlaze's Avatar


ScarletBlaze
01.23.2012 , 09:58 AM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by AVAstronaut View Post
So I'm kind of right back where I started in that I don't know what to play.

I don't want to play a tank with horrible AOE capabilities. But I don't want to play a tank who struggles to get healed and has no mitigation.
Avastronaut, the choice what to play is yours. Either profession can be good with AOE it just depends on you.

I have yet to run into something I can't handle solo.

The only person that knows what is best for you is you. I don't know your playstyle so I will not assume to tell you what is best for you.

All professions can be good. Play what you like the best just remember a shadow is a double blade and a lot of her abilities are based on that.

Good luck and may you enjoy the game.
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Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
01.23.2012 , 10:11 AM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Gankstah View Post
As far as regen goes, I was under the impression that the 15.6 sum included this? 12*1.3=15.6. Am I incorrect? I'm posting on a cell atm so I don't have the luxury to swap between websites for a search.
10.4 (base Force/sec) * 1.5 (GCD) = 15.6 Force/GCD

The actual gains from DBSD are closer to 1.33 Force/sec for roughly 2 Force/GCD. The gross Force/GCD is ~17.6.

The biggest point I was trying to bring up with the math I provided (and, yes, I know it's flawed) was that Guardians can generate AoE threat *easier* and with lower resource costs. Even if they were simply *equivalent*, Guardians would still have the advantage in that they spend less time and resources doing so. The amount of time you have to devote to maintaining AoE threat is fundamentally important: would you rather have class with a single AoE used once every 30 seconds or a class that generates threat by constantly spamming a full suite of AoEs to generate the exact same amount of threat? Even if everything else (damage, resource consumption, threat) was identical, whether you're spending more or less time using the given AoEs matters *a lot*, since that "empty" time is time you spend doing other things (like ST damage/threat gen).
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Gankstah's Avatar


Gankstah
01.23.2012 , 10:22 AM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by TheBigGregski View Post
I honestly find this thread a bit unreal... You guys are focusing on a "who's got the biggest" point of view, as if two tanks in a same party had to compete for aggro. Seriously is that the most useful thing to do ?
I completely 100% wholeheartedly agree.

Which is why I stated in my first post that people are taking things too personally and the differences are minuscule in the grand scheme. I have 2 SA buddies who are also tanks and I have never personally witnessed them have issues holding aggro. It all boils down to the player and more importantly the team.

The only reason I stepped into the conversation was because posters started postulating the use of consecutive Whirling Blows in a 12 second timeframe. Which is the worst possible management of resources. I was simply trying to illustrate that point. The conversation just kind of evolved from there.

But yes, the premise for argument is moot.