While I am not sure I agree with Trixxies reason that you quoted (she is still quitting based on her personal bias or self interest).... I would like to point out even if I did agree with you on this..... the fact remains that quitting for specious reasons is an epidemic in this MMO. So.. clearly things need to be done to dis-incent such behavior.

I think that based on observed behavior penalties of any form are unlikely to work well.

The fundamental problem here is that the bad behavior is already associated with a penalty. People are suffering through game content that they dislike in pursuit of rewards designed to bribe them into doing that content. Making it so that the PvP experience is more unlikeable achieves nothing because for those players the content is already so unlikable that if there was an option to get the reward at a similar rate without PvP they'd skip PvP entirely.

To them, disincentives are not a disincentive.

They are there for the rewards. They will do the minimum effort, minimum participation method of getting said rewards, and then they're out of there. At least until the timer on earning the rewards is up.

To get them to participate meaningfully, you have to make the reward conditions such that meaningful participation is the only way to earn the reward. Nothing else will actually work.

BW has attempted this before, but it's not as easy as you might think to get a chunk of code to do this well on a consistent basis. They could have another go at it, but I wouldn't really expect that much out of it.

Then too you have to bear in mind population issues. Is it better to have plenty of bad PvP with people bribed into PvPing for a generous helping of loot, or to have one honest, noble, and pure PvP match by appointment with the other true PvPers once a week on the weekend during prime hours?

In some respects, "I'm only here for the loot," is a curse, but that curse was laid for a reason.

I think that based on observed behavior penalties of any form are unlikely to work well.

 

The fundamental problem here is that the bad behavior is already associated with a penalty. People are suffering through game content that they dislike in pursuit of rewards designed to bribe them into doing that content. Making it so that the PvP experience is more unlikeable achieves nothing because for those players the content is already so unlikable that if there was an option to get the reward at a similar rate without PvP they'd skip PvP entirely.

 

To them, disincentives are not a disincentive.

 

They are there for the rewards. They will do the minimum effort, minimum participation method of getting said rewards, and then they're out of there. At least until the timer on earning the rewards is up.

 

To get them to participate meaningfully, you have to make the reward conditions such that meaningful participation is the only way to earn the reward. Nothing else will actually work.

 

BW has attempted this before, but it's not as easy as you might think to get a chunk of code to do this well on a consistent basis. They could have another go at it, but I wouldn't really expect that much out of it.

 

Then too you have to bear in mind population issues. Is it better to have plenty of bad PvP with people bribed into PvPing for a generous helping of loot, or to have one honest, noble, and pure PvP match by appointment with the other true PvPers once a week on the weekend during prime hours?

 

In some respects, "I'm only here for the loot," is a curse, but that curse was laid for a reason.

Yes, I agree with a lot of that assessment. Forcing or arm twisting people into playing content they don’t like, doesnt mean they will try if they arent encouraged to once they get into that content.

The medal system and achievement system or possibly the Valor system could be used to encourage better play and to improve player skill and motivation. But it would would need a major overhaul, which the medal system has needed since day one of this game because it’s rubbish. It doesn’t encourage team play or playing to win and it doesn’t reward players based on their contribution to the wins.

If it was done right and medals were rewarded for how much a person helped contribute to the win over how many people they farmed or how high their dps was, then they could link the rewards to how many medals people got. This would be a carrot + carrot approach. the first carrot as a lure and the second to make them try.

GSF already has a problem with people suicide ramming random stuff to get the match to end quicker. I'm not sure how 5.8 affected that, if it became more common to grind matches faster, or if people just stopped bothering with GSF because 5.8 made hardly anything in the game worthwhile.

But if there is a lockout imposed upon PVP, that GSF problem is gonna spread to ground PVP.

The people who would now just leave are instead going to do things like stand on the goal line in huttball to give the other team leaps to end the match faster; if your team does get the ball, the sorc who would have bailed is just gonna pull YOUR TEAM'S BALLCARRIER INTO THE FIRE instead to force a turnover and make the match faster.

On other maps, heaven forbid it's a same or mixed faction match, because the now-deserters are going to whisper intel to the other team to try to get your team three capped so the match ends faster. (And in this case, you might not know it's happening.)

Because that's what the type of people who now just bail will do if they can't just bail anymore. If they can't leave, they'll just do everything they can to take the people who are actually trying with them, so they can get out faster and not have the lockout.

I'd much rather just get backfill ASAP than get the people who just leave now actively trying to sabotage the match I'm in to make it end faster instead. And that WILL happen. And for the love of all that is good, let us choose whether we want 4v4 or 8v8, and let us disable backfilling into match sabotage in progress, if lockouts are implemented.

If your team does get the ball, the sorc who would have bailed is just gonna pull YOUR TEAM'S BALLCARRIER INTO THE FIRE instead to force a turnover and make the match faster.

Believe it or not. I’ve actually had that happen.

Believe it or not. I’ve actually had that happen.

Never experienced that, though I have seen someone yanked back by an inquisitor on the way to the Voidstar datacore.

A time-out for PVP is perhaps the one thing that could be done to persuade me to drop my subscriptions (I have two). If I could opt out of non-ranked arenas (which I despise...not fond of ranked ones, but what can you do), Odessen (before I finish Fallen Empire...after I'm the Outlander, I will play it), and disable becoming a backfill, I would have no need to worry about dropping. If they're going to smack me with a penalty for not playing things I dislike, I'm certainly not going to pay them for the "privilege". I'm more than willing to go back to Everquest if it comes to that.

we should be able to vote at least 2 ppl out before the start of the round and replace with companions.... or a random NPC from a dropdown list

And we should be able to place a turd emoji on a player by a team vote

Just think of the new PVP achievements you could create with it...

You should also explode after 30 seconds if you are not wearing gear or don’t have crystals in your main and off hand

Never experienced that, though I have seen someone yanked back by an inquisitor on the way to the Voidstar datacore.

I've totally done that. Not to be a jerk, but to pull, then force speed past him and click the panel MYSELF. There's a cheevo for that, you know.

I've totally done that. Not to be a jerk, but to pull, then force speed past him and click the panel MYSELF. There's a cheevo for that, you know.

Wow, just wow...

Never experienced that, though I have seen someone yanked back by an inquisitor on the way to the Voidstar datacore.

New all time low.

Had this HB today and one of my team kept running to our line with the ball and would sit down and let them kill him.

None of us could pick up the ball before him for some reason.

After the 4th time, I just left because I was so angry and I need to keep my blood pressure down at the moment. Every match I saw him in after that I left.

I have these ideas. I haven't thought them through much, so my feelings will not be hurt if they get torn apart.

 

How about ...

 

#1. I think when someone backfills they should start with all the medals that were already earned by the person they replaced. If you backfill into a match early in the game, you get a chance to make a difference. If you backfill late in the game, at least you get something for "losing your place in line".

 

Now for the part that replaces the lockout.

 

#2. If you quit a match, I don't care why - you get "negative" however many medals you already had. You have to overcome these before you can start earning anything again. So if you had 5 medals, decided the match was a waste of your time and you quit, or you got disconnected because a squirrel chewed through your internet cable, doesn't matter why... you are now at -5 medals. The next PvP match you get into, you start at -5. You get nothing until you've earned 6 more medals, at which point you finally got back to 1.

 

...

 

I might also add a "vote kick" change. First disable it in arena matches, since, as previously described, it can be so easily abused. And then make it so that, in an 8 man, if all other 7 people vote kick you, then there's no cancel. You are booted. And that counts as a quit. (Admittedly, I don't know currently how many people have to vote to kick you from a PvP match for it to trigger.)

 

That feels like a compromise to me. If you quit before the match even starts, there's no penalty (so if you quit because you don't like the map - fine). If you quit early on, then there is less of a penalty, because there's more chance of a backfill being able to come in and make up the difference. If you contribute to most of the failure, and then decide it's a lost cause, well, too bad for you. You get all those negative medals. If you decide to go AFK instead of quitting, then "we" can vote kick you.

 

Yes? No? Quit the game and uninstall?

Good ideas. Let me try to summarize:

1. Medals Penalty: Great idea. If you leave for any reason, you take a medals debuff into your next match. I would also add a valor debuff as well.

2. Medals Buff: Another great idea. If you are backfilled for any reason, and I would add "at any point after the match has started," you get a medals buff. Again, I'd add a valor buff as well.

I would also add that if you finish a match lopsided (eg. 8v6), all players on the gutted team should get a medals/valor buff as well.

3. Vote Kick: This one could be good, but I think it would be hard to make it work. Given the above, I could see it being abused (e.g. intentionally picking on someone so you can get the buffs above). Perhaps the approach here should be vote to "Declare AFK". And if you get a certain number (say 5) to declare you AFK, you get the debuffs (maybe also get a 0 count for match debuff too?). I think for this one tho, it shouldn't carry over to your next match.

Again, this one is super tricky for PvP - I can see lots of potential for abuse. But it's a good start, idea wise, for dealing with the AFK issue.

Anyway, these are good suggestions and are all better than a lockout IMO...

New all time low.

Had this HB today and one of my team kept running to our line with the ball and would sit down and let them kill him.

None of us could pick up the ball before him for some reason.

After the 4th time, I just left because I was so angry and I need to keep my blood pressure down at the moment. Every match I saw him in after that I left.

Yep, people are already getting in their practice at expediting/sabotaging matches so they'll have their match rush strats prepared if lockouts (or similar penalties) are implemented.

Yep, people are already getting in their practice at expediting/sabotaging matches so they'll have their match rush strats prepared if lockouts (or similar penalties) are implemented.

Sad but true. I can't even count how many times I have seen a team I am on get three capped and the person then say "I let em do it so we can get this over with faster". However, I am not sure there is anything you can do to fix that sort of behavior, it is just an annoying aspect of pvp.

Wow, just wow...

That's one of the best things about running in a premade -- you get to troll each other. Good times

Flame at me if you all want but punishment should implement to keep players quit, drop group for whatever reason.

FF14 even has a lockout timer for 30 minutes (I wish they have 60 minutes or more cause players still quit and wait out for 30 mins) and in that time frame you better log off or wait out since you can not queue for anything, I support that idea cause FF14 has a lot more dungeons and a lot of them players HATE to do it, without the punishment most players already done it will drop the group instantly.

That's one of the best things about running in a premade -- you get to troll each other. Good times

This wasn't a premade, it was completely random. If that sort of thing works out for you and your mates, I suppose that's one thing, so I can't really speak to your example, but to randomly use it on someone in a PUG is, well, an opinion that might get me banned from the forums.

Even if you already have the codex entry, being the one to hit the datacore still adds to your score. I would not blame the one (keeping this post at least marginally on-topic) being yanked back for dropping out of any group they found themselves in that also contained the one who would do such a thing. Messing with your friends is one thing - doing it to a randomly-placed PUG teammate is poor manners, at best.

I would not blame the one (keeping this post at least marginally on-topic) being yanked back for dropping out of any group they found themselves in that also contained the one who would do such a thing. Messing with your friends is one thing - doing it to a randomly-placed PUG teammate is poor manners, at best.

Yeah, I've had similar things happen to me. I've gotten yanked back from the pylon in AHG so the yanker could cap it instead. Another word that rhymes with "yanker" is a more appropriate description of that person I think. And the best is when that person then leaves me to guard anyway.

But I don't know about it being a "valid" reason to quit the match. When I had it done to me I just thought, "meh, whatever, if it's that important to you". Although, I HAVE had a voidstar or two that were really that close, such that a yank like that would have cost the match.

I really hope Keith has read all the feed back about how a deserter time out will make people stop pvping and probably make any remaining pvpers leave the game.

After the last few days, especially today, I can straight up say, if a lock out timer is applied for leaving matches, I’ll be gone.

Multiple matches today where half a team just goes straight to the off node at the beginning and 5 stay to guard from the start without getting attacked. It’s a complete waste of the other people’s time on both teams, but especially on the one they are on.

I had to leave multiple matches today to break my rotation in the queue with them. Which means spending more time out of pvp than in it. I wasted about half a CXP booster because of this and it’s not the first time.

Im pretty much over people’s piss poor attitude towards not trying to win in pvp, if you don’t want to win or try, don’t queue. You ruin it for everyone concerned. (How about we have lock out timers if you don’t try )

Anyway Keith, I really hope you can see from all the feed back, just how bad it would be for pvpers and pvp if you did this.

However, I am not sure there is anything you can do to fix that sort of behavior, it is just an annoying aspect of pvp.

When you have 2-3 people on your team who didn't queue to win and basically either give up the first time they die or simply don't care enough to play the objectives, it effectively cripples their team. It's essentially a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you queue up to lose, you're going to lose.

The only thing you can do is premade. It limits the potential PUGs you will get on your team (in particular, the ones with the bad attitudes who's sole purpose is to lose the match), and when you encounter players like this on the opposite team, you can farm the ever-living poop out of them, so maybe they'll rage quit and take their crappy attitude with them.

But back on topic, when players quit a match, sometimes it's warranted. Other times, they are bad players who blame everyone else on their team for everything that is going wrong in the match, and their team is better off without them. Often you'll get a backfill replacement who actually contributes to trying to win the match. So personally, I'd much rather see some kind of penalty for players who try to AFK during a match than a penalty for those leaving one.