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Class Changes: Deception Assassin / Infiltration Shadow

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Shadow / Assassin
Class Changes: Deception Assassin / Infiltration Shadow
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casigarian's Avatar


casigarian
10.09.2017 , 04:10 PM | #161
Actually Super with the averages currently on Star Parse 9438 on a 2.5 mil dummy selecting only personal bests would put the average DPS around 8600 placing Deception on par with Marksman (8685) and Lightning Sorcs (8706) currently.
Casigarian

olagatonjedi's Avatar


olagatonjedi
10.09.2017 , 04:21 PM | #162
Quote: Originally Posted by casigarian View Post
If you look at the average of a 2.5 mil dummy Deception is just over 9400 if you just use personal bests and just over 9300 if you use all parses on the 2.5 mil dummy. Deception is sitting at number 5 or 8 depending on which set of data you use (I personally like to use all parses for a truer average DPS) and is below carnage (another Melee Burst class that has already been "balanced". So why hit Deception with such a BIG NERF (could be close to 800 dps loss).
1). Public parses are only a fraction of information regarding class dps.

2). They arent balancing for end game.

Both of these were made very clear in the dev statement regarding class balance, iirc.

supertimtaf's Avatar


supertimtaf
10.09.2017 , 05:12 PM | #163
Quote: Originally Posted by olagatonjedi View Post
1). Public parses are only a fraction of information regarding class dps.

2). They arent balancing for end game.
What you are saying is basically :
Parse, even average, are not showing what a player can do, so in your opinions, the majority of peoples who don't use parse are better than those who use it ? Or is it the contrary ? Parsely isn't representative of the total population of this game, still it shows what either good players and average can achieve with a certain spec, even if it doesn't show everyone it shows what is possible. Saying that those numbers don't mean anything just means that you don't want to admit that this is one way to judge what a class can do.

Quote: Originally Posted by casigarian View Post
Actually Super with the averages currently on Star Parse 9438 on a 2.5 mil dummy selecting only personal bests would put the average DPS around 8600 placing Deception on par with Marksman (8685) and Lightning Sorcs (8706) currently.
I didn't see it that way honestly :/ My calculations where only based on personal best Parses, because the calculations are easier to make on those. We weren't that far, excellent players will be able to reach just 9k dps on a dummy, average will reach 8k6 dps... Still not enough for actual content though :/
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BraverDre's Avatar


BraverDre
10.09.2017 , 08:06 PM | #164
Quote: Originally Posted by casigarian View Post
If you look at the average of a 2.5 mil dummy Deception is just over 9400 if you just use personal bests and just over 9300 if you use all parses on the 2.5 mil dummy. Deception is sitting at number 5 or 8 depending on which set of data you use (I personally like to use all parses for a truer average DPS) and is below carnage (another Melee Burst class that has already been "balanced". So why hit Deception with such a BIG NERF (could be close to 800 dps loss).
Deception can reach 10,5k - 10,7k on a 2.5 mills dummy while most of sustained rDPS are at 9,5-9,8k dps. So nerf is needed. Its dps should be on the same line with sustained rDPS classes like madness, engi, IO. I look at the best parses. I don't even consider looking at parses of people who can't do 9k. Average dps stats can be cheated by parsing very low with ur alts so... no point to look at average numbers at all unless u are kinda new to the game and u wanna get a basic info from parsley.
http://parsely.io/parser/view/318879/0

nyrkverse's Avatar


nyrkverse
10.10.2017 , 12:01 AM | #165
Quote: Originally Posted by olagatonjedi View Post

2). They arent balancing for end game.
Yes, of course, deception assassins were killing CZ-198 mobs too quickly, we can't have that... Of course they're balancing for endgame - PvE and PvP, deception is clearly a victim of the former in this instance - that's the only place where TTK matters.
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supertimtaf's Avatar


supertimtaf
10.10.2017 , 04:58 AM | #166
Quote: Originally Posted by BraverDre View Post
Deception can reach 10,5k - 10,7k on a 2.5 mills dummy while most of sustained rDPS are at 9,5-9,8k dps. So nerf is needed. Its dps should be on the same line with sustained rDPS classes like madness, engi, IO. I look at the best parses. I don't even consider looking at parses of people who can't do 9k. Average dps stats can be cheated by parsing very low with ur alts so... no point to look at average numbers at all unless u are kinda new to the game and u wanna get a basic info from parsley.
http://parsely.io/parser/view/318879/0
The parse you linked is good, but not at all representative of what the class usually do. I find it very strange that he had to use saber strike and still reach 10k7 dps, saber strike would mean he messed up his rotation somewhere. But looking at the individual crit, it's no wonder... 75% crit on assassinate ? Srsly ? :') and I'm not even talking about the apm
You don't balance a class around what the «luckiest» guy can do with it -being carefull with the «lucky» part, edited Parse aren't that uncommon-
FYI, Deception still relies on RnG to work. You could very well have the luckiest crit you can have, it doesn't mean surging charge will follow. The same apply on the contrary, surging charge proc doesn't mean your crit will follow too. Seeing those Parse along with average Parse is cool, because it shows what the dps range of the class is (because no, peoples don't parse sh*t just to imbalance the statistics). When you look at deception, the range is quite important (especially on Ops Boss), to give you an idea of what the class dps range is, because you cannot speak of target dps for this spec, the exact term being «dps range». The difference between a Carnage Mara and a Deception Sin is that it doesn't require skill to be lucky. Fix the randomness of the class then yeah, it is OP when you compare it to others, with its randomness you cannot justify a nerf because a specific scenario out of hundreds showed that it could overperform, especially if you made the class that way.
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olagatonjedi's Avatar


olagatonjedi
10.10.2017 , 05:47 AM | #167
Quote: Originally Posted by nyrkverse View Post
Yes, of course, deception assassins were killing CZ-198 mobs too quickly, we can't have that... Of course they're balancing for endgame - PvE and PvP, deception is clearly a victim of the former in this instance - that's the only place where TTK matters.
You must not have read the dev posts.

olagatonjedi's Avatar


olagatonjedi
10.10.2017 , 06:04 AM | #168
Quote: Originally Posted by supertimtaf View Post
What you are saying is basically :
Parse, even average, are not showing what a player can do, so in your opinions, the majority of peoples who don't use parse are better than those who use it ? Or is it the contrary ? Parsely isn't representative of the total population of this game, still it shows what either good players and average can achieve with a certain spec, even if it doesn't show everyone it shows what is possible. Saying that those numbers don't mean anything just means that you don't want to admit that this is one way to judge what a class can do.
I'm saying people using starparse and parsely for their argument are making an argument with incomplete data. For example, I parse every time I log in, but I don't upload my log files. Multiply that by thousands of people who play the game, but either don't parse or don't upload their parses, and it's easy to see where the "incomplete data" comes from. I certainly believe that there are players who parse higher and lower than the public parses on those sites. Just because some people like posting their numbers doesn't mean everyone does. Parsely gives a very small sample size of what the class is capable of, but again, it doesn't given the full spectrum of data, so it's not as reliable as people are claiming. I would trust the data of a company who has 100% of the parsing data (and can likely break it down by skill, class, level, gear rating, etc.) over a random collection of a few individually picked parses (remember, not everyone posts every parse they do either, even the people who post top-score parses).

BW has internal metrics that are showing that the classes that are getting nerfed are overperforming, regardless of how many times people come to the forums, using public parses, and state the opposite. And again, BW has stated that they are balancing for the AVERAGE DPS/HPS, which means that more than 1/2 of the players who play each class, regardless of skill, are dpsing/hpsing at a much higher rate than intended (on multiple classes). So while the top 5% of public parses may be either overperforming or underperforming, it doesn't matter - the numbers show the classes themselves, from 1-70, newbie to endgame are overperforming.

Darrahsrhaw's Avatar


Darrahsrhaw
10.10.2017 , 07:25 AM | #169
Quote: Originally Posted by casigarian View Post
If you look at the average of a 2.5 mil dummy Deception is just over 9400 if you just use personal bests and just over 9300 if you use all parses on the 2.5 mil dummy. Deception is sitting at number 5 or 8 depending on which set of data you use (I personally like to use all parses for a truer average DPS) and is below carnage (another Melee Burst class that has already been "balanced". So why hit Deception with such a BIG NERF (could be close to 800 dps loss).
i can do 10 parses on deception each will be higher than 9.7 but we all know how bad u are i think even during arsenal reign u were doing like 9k. even after nerf mercs are good dps for nightmare progression same will be with assassins
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Darrahsrhaw's Avatar


Darrahsrhaw
10.10.2017 , 07:28 AM | #170
Quote: Originally Posted by supertimtaf View Post
The parse you linked is good, but not at all representative of what the class usually do. I find it very strange that he had to use saber strike and still reach 10k7 dps, saber strike would mean he messed up his rotation somewhere. But looking at the individual crit, it's no wonder... 75% crit on assassinate ? Srsly ? :') and I'm not even talking about the apm
You don't balance a class around what the «luckiest» guy can do with it -being carefull with the «lucky» part, edited Parse aren't that uncommon-
FYI, Deception still relies on RnG to work. You could very well have the luckiest crit you can have, it doesn't mean surging charge will follow. The same apply on the contrary, surging charge proc doesn't mean your crit will follow too. Seeing those Parse along with average Parse is cool, because it shows what the dps range of the class is (because no, peoples don't parse sh*t just to imbalance the statistics). When you look at deception, the range is quite important (especially on Ops Boss), to give you an idea of what the class dps range is, because you cannot speak of target dps for this spec, the exact term being «dps range». The difference between a Carnage Mara and a Deception Sin is that it doesn't require skill to be lucky. Fix the randomness of the class then yeah, it is OP when you compare it to others, with its randomness you cannot justify a nerf because a specific scenario out of hundreds showed that it could overperform, especially if you made the class that way.
but i dont see 10.7k madness....
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