Yeessss...but they did fight! in the space battle.."fight which implies battle" Revan just doesn't have to deliver the killing blow. ..NOW I AM FINISHED. lol

 

I think we should see Han Solo vs Deadeye Duncan.

But poor Deadeye doesn't have a power base. And Han would shoot first. It wouldn't matter if Deadeye drew his blaster first, he always drops it!

I think a good battle would be Grand Moff Tarkin vs. Grand Moff Kilran. Who would emerge victorious in the ultimate test of Moffiness?

This has been a great debate and not a flame war (although someone did make a useless personal attack against me).

 

I would just like to note that Traya can't engage Revan because she has no means of escaping Malachor. She's trapped there and since the rules of the Kaggath state that someone has to die, Revan has to go to her. While in a "real world" situation, Revan could just leave and let Traya die there. The rules state that this is a battle and such an ending doesn't make for a Kaggath. Since this is a Kaggath, they have to fight or someone has to surrender. Neither of them are going to surrender so they have to fight. And since Traya can't leave Malachor, Revan has to go to her.

 

Anyway, great debate with you all. I'm surprised this didn't erupt into a flame war like any other Revan thread.

I disagree with this. Honestly, I disagree with making Malachor V any sort of final stand, to immediately retreat to your fortress is foolhardy at best, but I must absolutely disagree with the idea that Malachor V is

A) a stalemate in any non-kaggath situation

B) Without escape for Traya's forces

She is trapped on a planet, not just a surrounded building. Malachor itself is her fortress because the Republic cannot effectively maintain a ground presence due to the elements and defenses of the academy. Given that she is on a planet, and her reign supposedly stops beyond that planet, I argue that there are literally infinite directions and infinite possibilities for Traya's forces to escape from the planet, and that is supported by canon as there are quite a few examples in Star Wars of breakable blockades, and we know that Malachor V's atmosphere can be successfully negotiated by spacecraft as evidenced by the -ending- of Kotor 2 and the fact that those who trained on M5 obviously can leave M5, so no, I disagree that M5 is a complete death trap, for Traya's forces anyways. I don't dispute Revan losing, I dispute the possibility of a stalemate and a blockade, particularly a fool-proof one, and I dispute a ground-conflict being the only scenario for Revan's defeat... but most importantly, this is to disprove the notion of a stalemate:

M5 is a starship graveyard, with tons and tons of wreckage and debris orbiting the rock, reaching quite a distance beyond the planet, a distance greater than Malak's ships, already proven superior to Revan's, orbited Taris. Both the elements and debris encase the heart of M5, making scans nigh-impossible on the surface, but you may be leaving out the idea that electrical interference from the planet and the debris may also make it difficult for Revan's forces to accurately monitor anything coming out of M5, traveling amongst the debris. Where am I going with this? Boarding parties... sneaking on using small, drifting shuttles, pulling "Han"s, evading sensors and steadily, stealthily boarding their, particularly stray ships... now imagine we were allowed a stalemate, how many support ships, how many shuttles will hop from ship-to-ship within Revan's fleet? Like a virus, those assassins can board and wait... and as Revan's forces monitor Malachor, Traya's assassins monitor Revan, monitor his ships, monitor their patterns, their movements, their security, their personnel... you see where I am going with this.

Time would not be on Revan's side. Malachor's surrounded by wreckage, making maneuvering large, bulky vessels near-impossible without them taking damage or taking on boarders.

I disagree with this. Honestly, I disagree with making Malachor V any sort of final stand, to immediately retreat to your fortress is foolhardy at best, but I must absolutely disagree with the idea that Malachor V is

 

A) a stalemate in any non-kaggath situation

B) Without escape for Traya's forces

 

She is trapped on a planet, not just a surrounded building. Malachor itself is her fortress because the Republic cannot effectively maintain a ground presence due to the elements and defenses of the academy. Given that she is on a planet, and her reign supposedly stops beyond that planet, I argue that there are literally infinite directions for Traya's forces to escape from the planet, and that is supported by canon there are quite a few examples in Star Wars of breakable blockades, and we know that Malachor V can be successfully negotiated by spacecraft as evidenced by the -ending- of Kotor 2 and the fact that anyone trained on M5 has indeed leave M5, so no, I disagree that M5 is a complete death trap, for Traya's forces anyways. I don't dispute Revan losing, I dispute the possibility of a stalemate and a blockade, particularly a fool-proof one, and I dispute a ground-conflict being the only scenario for Revan's defeat... but most importantly, this is to disprove the notion of a stalemate:

 

watch from the beginning

watch from 1:50 onward.

 

M5 is a starship graveyard, with tons and tons of wreckage and debris orbiting the rock, reaching quite a distance beyond the planet, a distance greater than Malak's ships, already proven superior to Revan's, orbited Taris. Both the elements and debris encase the heart of M5, making scans nigh-impossible on the surface, but you may be leaving out the idea that electrical interference from the planet and the debris may also make it nigh-impossible for Revan's forces to accurately monitor anything coming out of M5. Where am I going with this? Boarding parties... sneaking on using small, drifting shuttles, pulling "Han"s, evading sensors and steadily, stealthily boarding their, particularly stray ships... now imagine we were allowed a stalemate, how many support ships, how many shuttles will hop from ship-to-ship within Revan's fleet? Like a virus, those assassins can board and wait... and as Revan's forces monitor Malachor, Traya's assassins monitor Revan, monitor his ships, monitor their patterns, their movements, their security, their personnel... you see where I am going with this.

 

Time would not be on Revan's side. Malachor's surrounded by wreckage, and it is a given that the Sith would have quite a few shuttles here and there, much smaller than the debris.

That's actually a good point. I was under the impression that Traya's shuttles and such would be destroyed along with her fleet. I had forgotten about other shuttles. You paint a very interesting picture. A scenario that could very well happen. I had discussed how a "stalemate" would only play into Traya's hands, this scenario proves it.

You've covered all of the bases. I don't see a counter argument for this one.

That's actually a good point. I was under the impression that Traya's shuttles and such would be destroyed along with her fleet. I had forgotten about other shuttles. You paint a very interesting picture. A scenario that could very well happen. I had discussed how a "stalemate" would only play into Traya's hands, this scenario proves it.

 

You've covered all of the bases. I don't see a counter argument for this one.

That's the problem with commanding a massive force or exerting -any- imperialist policies: You're like a herd of wildabeasts vulnerable to the Pride once you encroach on their territory. I'll take force-eating assassins and a cadre of elite, veteran Sith forces in the heart of a darkside nexus over the largest fleet any day.

And no- not all shuttles would be destroyed, that's silly. How would she have gotten her forces on the ground?

Even with one shuttle Sith could still perforate through the Republic fleet, you just need that one stray ship to board and sneak off, or use space suits which, as I remember, are quite common in Kotor and the clone wars.

That's the problem with commanding a massive force or exerting -any- imperialist policies: You're like a herd of wildabeasts vulnerable to the Pride once you encroach on their territory. I'll take force-eating assassins and a cadre of elite, veteran Sith forces in the heart of a darkside nexus over the largest fleet any day.

Same here. This is like the rebels vs. the Empire. The Empire has the big stuff, but the rebels have the best stuff for the situation. Revan may have the bigger numbers, but Traya has it where it counts. That's what matters. The problem with blockading a planet is that you can't make it air-tight. Smugglers break through blockades all the time.

hmm. Traya does have the advantage of assassins and M5 as her base. But Revan has an army and the Revanchist. The assassins would be useful but I don't think they alone would give the win. In order for it to be Traya victory Revan would have to make some mistakes. I think Revan would be able to prolong the fighting despite Trayas assassins.

But honestly I think we should be using Darth Revan and his sith empire for this Topic. I think that would a much more interesting match up.

Lets play with a few numbers here, I will make up some numbers but I am just using them as examples not as actual fact. I am going to use KOTOR 2 as a measuring guide.

Lets say that Traya has about 500 assassins. (probably being generous here) and with Scion and Nihilus' lets add like 10,000 soldiers and 100 Dark Jedi. That is wonderful for one or two battlefields but honestly she really can't fight more then that at once, just not possible with her very limited resources. She also has to steal things like, food, water, ammo, missiles etc. Lets also be generous about her fleet size, she has 1 battleship and lets say 20 interdictor ships. Each with a full compliment of fighters, so probably a few hundred of them.

Traya admits to us that she isn't a leader, nor is she a military commander, she is not going to know how to effectively defeat an enemy army or fleet. She can fight people, maybe a single battle but really that is about it. She isn't going to inspire anyone nor is she going to plan defenses or attacks.

Now Revan, he had a third of the Republic's military. Now lets say that the Republic army is really small, and is only like 900 million soldiers. (remember the Republic is hundreds of thousands of planets and has to have an army that can defend at least most of them) and Revan now has 300 million soldiers and probably at minimum tens of thousands of star ships if nor over a hundred thousand. With hundreds of thousands of fighters. Plus lets say Revan has around 300 Jedi, mostly Padawan's maybe 50 of them are Jedi Knights and 5 of them Masters (remember I believe Master Kavar joined the effort against the mandaorians, nothing to suggest he had to be the only Jedi Master who did.

Reven has planets which supply him with fresh soldiers, supplies and equipment. So he will never really run out of anything and anything he does lose can be replaced without too much difficulty.

Now for the two to fight, lets say those 500 assassins can kill 1,000 soldiers each before being killed. (being VERY generous here with that number) that is 500,000 soldiers gone leaving Revan with 2.5 million more.

Now most of Traya's Dark Jedi are mostly the equivalent of Knights and Masters, they can probably outmatch the Padawan's that mostly consist of Revan's Jedi, however with the endless supply of Republic Soldiers backing them up, they will simply be overwhelmed in time, however the Jedi force would also pretty much be exterminated there.

Fleet wise, almost no matter what Traya's force does it is screwed. It has no was of sustaining itself. It can do hit and run tactics but it always has to be on the move, picking at the Republic force at it's weak points just like the Rebellion did. However people forget that the Empire did ambush the rebellion sometimes too, sometimes the Rebellion was forced into a straight up fight and in those situations they generally lost, not always but there is a reason why Hit and Fade attacks were the rebellion's MO.

Traya doesn't have the numbers, any losses she takes are a major blow to her while Revan can shrug off most defeats. "Oh I lost 20 Hammerheads but we took out 2 Interdictors? oh well who cares?" He just lost an insignificant force and she just lost 10% of her fleet which she has no way of replacing.

Traya also has to be out and about to corrupt Revan's forces, she has to be traveling around infiltrating his fleets, she needs spies for that to find the best people to corrupt. She isn't going to corrupt entire crews, she will corrupt people. She cannot be everywhere at once and wherever she isn't her forces will lose by simple attrition.

Revan also learns and adapts to enemy tactics, she will corrupt some people, she will gain a dozen capital ships, and he will learn. he will sacrifice fleets to draw her forces out to destroy them. She isn't a commander, she isn't a strategist, she will most likely fall into traps and her forces will pay for that.

Scale is the issue here, there is simply no way for a tiny force with out any resources to defeat a massive resource rich force.

Now if this was Revan vs Vader then Revan would be done for, however putting him against Traya is just being cruel to an old woman.

Like I said in the begining, I just pulled those numbers out my butt, however scale wise it would be something like that, no matter the size of Traya's forces Revan' force would be 100,000 times larger and she is just one woman who needs time to travel to different places to corrupt people and by the time she is even half way done with her corrupt people 2012 tour her entire army would be a smoking ruin. In my opinion of course, if someone can show me how she can gain the numbers to actually pull this off I will happily admit my wrongness. I just don't see how her limited assassin supply can do that much damage to a force so many times larger, space is big and it takes a long time to travel. They can only do so much to an army so big.

That's exactly what I've been thinking, that the scale of their forces is simply not a match for each other. Revan has the clear, insurmountable advantage in terms of pure resources. You setting numbers to it, even if those numbers are made up they are in the general ball-park in terms of the scale differences, serves more effectively to demonstrate that point than anything I could think to say.

And that's really what it comes down to. The Kaggath sets up what is supposed to be a military conflict between a fully realized military power with an experienced leader and an organization that is completely ill-equipped to be anything of the sort and a non-military leader. There's nothing wrong with Kreia or her methods in the normal scheme of things, but battle like this is CLEARLY not her strength.

I think only the best of Kreia in the areas where she excels, but with the conflict as presented in the OP it is absolutely ridiculous to think she had even a fighting chance.

Addressing Resources:

Remember that the Kaggath takes place in the known galaxy.

If Traya gets surrounded on Malachor Five, what's happening in the rest of the galaxy?

Revan controls 1/3 of the Republic fleet, and therefor has the support of the Republic. With no other major powers in play (besides Traya) the Republic and could easily conquer pretty much the entire galaxy, considering that the only world Traya would be left defending is M5. Revan's forces alone could conquer the rest of the known galaxy while still holding M5, and even with the assassins-killing-people senario.

So basically, it would be the entire galaxy's worth of worlds against one planet.

There's nothing in the rules about Revan's powerbase not being able to expand during the course of the Kaggath, and that's what would happen if Traya was forced back to her fortress. With trillions of subjects and a galaxy worth of wealth and support, Revan could just chunk ships at M5 and hope one hits the Academy.

Stealth Assassins cannot defeat the known galaxy.

I disagree with this. Honestly, I disagree with making Malachor V any sort of final stand, to immediately retreat to your fortress is foolhardy at best, but I must absolutely disagree with the idea that Malachor V is

 

A) a stalemate in any non-kaggath situation

B) Without escape for Traya's forces

 

She is trapped on a planet, not just a surrounded building. Malachor itself is her fortress because the Republic cannot effectively maintain a ground presence due to the elements and defenses of the academy. Given that she is on a planet, and her reign supposedly stops beyond that planet, I argue that there are literally infinite directions and infinite possibilities for Traya's forces to escape from the planet, and that is supported by canon as there are quite a few examples in Star Wars of breakable blockades, and we know that Malachor V's atmosphere can be successfully negotiated by spacecraft as evidenced by the -ending- of Kotor 2 and the fact that those who trained on M5 obviously can leave M5, so no, I disagree that M5 is a complete death trap, for Traya's forces anyways. I don't dispute Revan losing, I dispute the possibility of a stalemate and a blockade, particularly a fool-proof one, and I dispute a ground-conflict being the only scenario for Revan's defeat... but most importantly, this is to disprove the notion of a stalemate:

 

watch from the beginning

watch from 1:50 onward.

 

M5 is a starship graveyard, with tons and tons of wreckage and debris orbiting the rock, reaching quite a distance beyond the planet, a distance greater than Malak's ships, already proven superior to Revan's, orbited Taris. Both the elements and debris encase the heart of M5, making scans nigh-impossible on the surface, but you may be leaving out the idea that electrical interference from the planet and the debris may also make it difficult for Revan's forces to accurately monitor anything coming out of M5, traveling amongst the debris. Where am I going with this? Boarding parties... sneaking on using small, drifting shuttles, pulling "Han"s, evading sensors and steadily, stealthily boarding their, particularly stray ships... now imagine we were allowed a stalemate, how many support ships, how many shuttles will hop from ship-to-ship within Revan's fleet? Like a virus, those assassins can board and wait... and as Revan's forces monitor Malachor, Traya's assassins monitor Revan, monitor his ships, monitor their patterns, their movements, their security, their personnel... you see where I am going with this.

 

Time would not be on Revan's side. Malachor's surrounded by wreckage, making maneuvering large, bulky vessels near-impossible without them taking damage or taking on boarders.

1. This debate is kinda over

2. Revan's ships can orbit at a distance.

3. K-Canon (Beni) says that Kreia is now on Malachor with 0% of her ships, while Revan has 20% of his (which is EXTREMELY generous to Traya)

1. This debate is kinda over

2. Revan's ships can orbit at a distance.

3. K-Canon (Beni) says that Kreia is now on Malachor with 0% of her ships, while Revan has 20% of his

4. IF she does have any shuttles, this is good for Revan. This means his ships get to pick them apart once they leave the planet. Traya would be a fool to leave. Just as Revan would be a fool to attack.

But poor Deadeye doesn't have a power base. And Han would shoot first. It wouldn't matter if Deadeye drew his blaster first, he always drops it!

 

I think a good battle would be Grand Moff Tarkin vs. Grand Moff Kilran. Who would emerge victorious in the ultimate test of Moffiness?

I like that idea. However, I think having 2 Moffs in 1 battle might be a little boring. I think we gotta mix it up a bit ya know?

1. This debate is kinda over

2. Revan's ships can orbit at a distance.

3. K-Canon (Beni) says that Kreia is now on Malachor with 0% of her ships, while Revan has 20% of his (which is EXTREMELY generous to Traya)

1. It was over long before Beni said so, I just wrapped up the loose end you so dearly take comfort in.

2. Orbit is one thing, blockade is entirely different. If Revan's fleet would be forced to go a fair distance from the planet's polluted debris field, then breaking that blockade (which there would be none, then) would be very likely.

3. Not likely, but that was very generous of Beni. To you. No fool would ever sacrifice their entire fleet at one space battle when they could be used for so much. But she doesn't need ships, just one small shuttle, which is bound to be used in their escape.

4. Go watch Episode 5, then watch the space fight in episode 2, then watch the leaving Taris scene from Kotor1, then play Empire at War, then watch the Malevolence episodes of the clone wars.

1. It was over long before Beni said so, I just wrapped up the loose end you so dearly take comfort in.

2. Orbit is one thing, blockade is entirely different. If Revan's fleet would be forced to go a fair distance from the planet's polluted debris field, then breaking that blockade (which there would be none, then) would be very likely.

3. Not likely. No fool would ever sacrifice their entire fleet at one space battle when they could be used for so much. But she doesn't need ships, just one small shuttle, which is bound to be used in their escape.

4. If you're not going to actually read the post, don't reply.

Geez. I really didn't want to get back into this. But your tone is so annoying I couldn't resist.

1. No point in arguing here. If "wrapping up" my supposed "loose ends" make you feel better, then have fun.

2. He has so many ships dude. He's gonna be constantly monitering the planet. With his loose blockade, you're right, Traya could get a few guys out in a single shuttle. What does that accomplish here though? All Revan has to do is track the shuttle's hyperspace coordinates, follow the shuttle, and the BOOM!

3. We've been over this. Beni said that Traya has 0% of her fleet bro and Revan has 20% of his. This is extremely generous to Traya wether you like it or not.

So, with K-Canon in mind, Traya is on Malachor V with possibly 1 shuttle, while Revan is blockading the planet with 20% of his massive fleet. While this is happening, Revan will go to other planets and either loot them or take them over. Hell, he could take over the entire galaxy while Traya sits on Malachor. And I love it that you brought up the fact that Traya can leave Malachor, because if she does, she dies. With that in mind, it's not only likely that Revan would tie this Kaggath, but likely that Revan could win it. Seriously, if Traya leaves, she dies for so many reasons. If she stays, it's a draw. Even then, if she stays, she gives Revan time to conquer other worlds. This is time to develop new tech and weapons. Traya does not win this fight unless Revan makes a foolish attack on Malachor.

Remember the logic you guys used to say that Revan would lose? You said "Revan dies because the Kaggath rules force him to attack Malachor." Well guess what? If that's what the Kaggath rules do, then they also means that Traya has to fly right into Revan's fleet with her single shuttle. Both of these plans are suicide! So now the rule (which I've argued should be dropped for this exception - stalemate) dooms Traya just as much as it dooms Revan. I love it that you just beat your own argument there. Nicely done!

I hope Beni is still reading!

Geez. I really didn't want to get back into this. But your tone is so annoying I couldn't resist.

 

1. No point in arguing here. If "wrapping up" my supposed "loose ends" make you feel better, then have fun.

2. He has so many ships dude. He's gonna be constantly monitering the planet. With his loose blockade, you're right, Traya could get a few guys out in a single shuttle. What does that accomplish here though? All Revan has to do is track the shuttle's hyperspace coordinates, follow the shuttle, and the BOOM!

3. We've been over this. Beni said that Traya has 0% of her fleet bro and Revan has 20% of his. This is extremely generous to Traya wether you like it or not.

 

So, with K-Canon in mind, Traya is on Malachor V with possibly 1 shuttle, while Revan is blockading the planet with 20% of his massive fleet. While this is happening, Revan will go to other planets and either loot them or take them over. Hell, he could take over the entire galaxy while Traya sits on Malachor. And I love it that you brought up the fact that Traya can leave Malachor, because if she does, she dies. With that in mind, it's not only likely that Revan would tie this Kaggath, but likely that Revan could win it. Seriously, if Traya leaves, she dies for so many reasons. If she stays, it's a draw. Even then, if she stays, she gives Revan time to conquer other worlds. This is time to develop new tech and weapons. Traya does not win this fight unless Revan makes a foolish attack on Malachor.

 

Remember the logic you guys used to say that Revan would lose? You said "Revan dies because the Kaggath rules force him to attack Malachor." Well guess what? If that's what the Kaggath rules do, then they also means that Traya has to fly right into Revan's fleet with her single shuttle. Both of these plans are suicide! So now the rule (which I've argued should be dropped for this exception - stalemate) dooms Traya just as much as it dooms Revan. I love it that you just beat your own argument there. Nicely done!

 

I hope Beni is still reading!

Could I address a few things here. Blazing Shadow said that the shuttle would have assassins in it, so Traya wouldn't be leaving the planet. The assassins would stealthily board one of Revan's ships and take it over. Then move on to the next. He wasn't saying Traya was leaving the planet.

So with that in mind, it is quite possible for Traya to win using this tactic. The assassins could easily sneak through the blockade. No blockade is fool-proof.

Anyway, this debate has been over for a while now. Why don't we just leave it as it is and hope for the best?

Could I address a few things here. Blazing Shadow said that the shuttle would have assassins in it, so Traya wouldn't be leaving the planet. The assassins would stealthily board one of Revan's ships and take it over. Then move on to the next. He wasn't saying Traya was leaving the planet.

 

So with that in mind, it is quite possible for Traya to win using this tactic. The assassins could easily sneak through the blockade. No blockade is fool-proof.

 

Anyway, this debate has been over for a while now. Why don't we just leave it as it is and hope for the best?

You're right. The debate is over. But allow me to make a point regarding those assassins:

If they couldn't beat Revan's army when they were at full force, I see no way that they could beat Revan's forces now that there are very few of them + Revan's watching them and he knows where they're coming from.

Sorry I did that. I know the debate is over, I just could shy away from making that last point. If you want to reply to this and chew it over for a bit, I don't mind.

Geez. I really didn't want to get back into this. But your tone is so annoying I couldn't resist.

 

1. No point in arguing here. If "wrapping up" my supposed "loose ends" make you feel better, then have fun.

2. He has so many ships dude. He's gonna be constantly monitering the planet. With his loose blockade, you're right, Traya could get a few guys out in a single shuttle. What does that accomplish here though? All Revan has to do is track the shuttle's hyperspace coordinates, follow the shuttle, and the BOOM!

3. We've been over this. Beni said that Traya has 0% of her fleet bro and Revan has 20% of his. This is extremely generous to Traya wether you like it or not.

 

So, with K-Canon in mind, Traya is on Malachor V with possibly 1 shuttle, while Revan is blockading the planet with 20% of his massive fleet. While this is happening, Revan will go to other planets and either loot them or take them over. Hell, he could take over the entire galaxy while Traya sits on Malachor. And I love it that you brought up the fact that Traya can leave Malachor, because if she does, she dies. With that in mind, it's not only likely that Revan would tie this Kaggath, but likely that Revan could win it. Seriously, if Traya leaves, she dies for so many reasons. If she stays, it's a draw. Even then, if she stays, she gives Revan time to conquer other worlds. This is time to develop new tech and weapons. Traya does not win this fight unless Revan makes a foolish attack on Malachor.

 

Remember the logic you guys used to say that Revan would lose? You said "Revan dies because the Kaggath rules force him to attack Malachor." Well guess what? If that's what the Kaggath rules do, then they also means that Traya has to fly right into Revan's fleet with her single shuttle. Both of these plans are suicide! So now the rule (which I've argued should be dropped for this exception - stalemate) dooms Traya just as much as it dooms Revan. I love it that you just beat your own argument there. Nicely done!

 

I hope Beni is still reading!

1. Happily.

2. Shuttles can lose their hyperspace trails quite nicely, also debris fields are very, very good for hiding and making escapes, but you seem to be unable to comprehend major canon occurences in Star Wars that make this so.

3. Beni shoe-horned the fight into Malachor 5 because you, among others, flopped around like fish out of water. I've only tried to explain why Traya's forces are superior as well as define the two main characters. And I'm not the one who wanted the fight at Malachor 5.

You assume too much. Why does she die, how does she die. She's able to blind herself to those around her, particularly those strong in the Force. And she's survived being shot down in a shuttle quite a few times.

Point out to me specifically where -I- said the rules of the kaggath dictate they must fight. And fighting an entire fleet with 1 shuttle is quite possible if you read my post. But given the post above me, you don't really get the MO of Force-devouring assassins....

*edit* hmmhmmhmm wouldn't want to hurt your feelings.

Oh, and one more thing for you to choke on:

I love the blind faith some people have in Revan, especially when he has been defeated several times in several ways. It's been said in this thread that Kreia spoke very highly of Revan, that he was stronger in the force than her, and that is true. But if we're taking her at her word, she also stated: "There are techniques within the force for which there are no defense". And then shortly proceeded to slay three of the greatest jedi masters with the teachings of Malachor 5. And that was with their guard up, lightsabers drawn, on Dantooine. I hate to say it... actually, I love to say it... but JK Revan meeting Darth Traya, Darth Traya in command of the ST, not Kreia, is assured defeat. That is a result of her construction as a character in the Star Wars universe.

1. Happily.

2. Shuttles can lose their hyperspace trails quite nicely, also debris fields are very, very good for hiding and making escapes, but you seem to be unable to comprehend major canon occurences in Star Wars that make this so.

3. Beni shoe-horned the fight into Malachor 5 because you, among others, flopped around like fish out of water. I've only tried to explain why Traya's forces are superior as well as define the two main characters. And I'm not the one who wanted the fight at Malachor 5.

 

You assume too much. Why does she die, how does she die. She's able to blind herself to those around her, particularly those strong in the Force. And she's survived being shot down in a shuttle quite a few times.

 

Point out to me specifically where -I- said the rules of the kaggath dictate they must fight. And fighting an entire fleet with 1 shuttle is quite possible if you read my post.

 

 

Oh, and one more thing for you to choke on:

I love the blind faith some people have in Revan. It's been said in this thread that Kreia spoke very highly of Revan, that he was stronger in the force than her, and that is true. But if we're taking her at her word, she also stated: "There are techniques within the force for which there are no defense". And then shortly proceeded to slay three of the greatest jedi masters with the teachings of Malachor 5. And that was with their guard up, lightsabers drawn, on Dantooine. I hate to say it... actually, I love to say it... but JK Revan meeting Darth Traya, Darth Traya in command of the ST, not Kreia, is assured defeat. That is a result of her construction as a character in the Star Wars universe.

I'm not gonna bother debating you any more seeing as how you've dropped this debate to a level of insults. I'm not playing that game.

No. You specifically never talked about the Kaggath rule thing, but others arguing for Traya did.

Yes, I did flop around like a fish didn't I? I got a little frustrated when it seemed that Revan had to confront Traya on Malachor, but that doesn't change the fact that my arguments have been very logical and, for the most part, insult-free.

Blaze: look at your argument.

You are now saying that Traya can win with 1 single shuttle and a handful of assassins vs Revan and thousands of his ships. Think about it.

I'm not gonna bother debating you any more seeing as how you've dropped this debate to a level of insults. I'm not playing that game.

 

No. You specifically never talked about the Kaggath rule thing, but others arguing for Traya did.

 

Yes, I did flop around like a fish didn't I? I got a little frustrated when it seemed that Revan had to confront Traya on Malachor, but that doesn't change the fact that my arguments have been very logical and, for the most part, insult-free.

Your arguments have been the most entertaining examples of Revan-reverence I have ever seen. And I'm not insulting you, just making very colorful and accurate descriptions of what you are and what you do.

Now you will pay the price for your lack of vision: :sy_inquisitor:

You're right. The debate is over. But allow me to make a point regarding those assassins:

If they couldn't beat Revan's army when they were at full force, I see no way that they could beat Revan's forces now that there are very few of them + Revan's watching them and he knows where they're coming from.

 

Sorry I did that. I know the debate is over, I just could shy away from making that last point. If you want to reply to this and chew it over for a bit, I don't mind.

What makes you think Traya's numbers are few. She may have lost the fleet, but her ground forces are still at full capacity. She has hundreds of assassins and hundreds of Sith at her command. She has plenty of forces.

Now we have to remember that no blockade is fool-proof. All Traya has to do is wait for them to become lax and then move in. One weak link is all she needs to get assassins on one of the ships. From there it's all down-hill. They'll move from one ship to the next using space suits, which are quite common. They only have to trick the next ship that something is wrong with their ship, pretend to send an engineering team over, and continue the cycle. As I have said before, a supposed stalemate only works in her advantage.

Now we're done.

Blaze: look at your argument.

 

You are now saying that Traya can win with 1 single shuttle and a handful of assassins vs Revan and thousands of his ships. Think about it.

That is correct, astute powers of observation!

At any rate, she did bring about the end of the Jedi order, the remnant of Revan's Sith, and nearly the end of the Force, using knowledge and both sides of the Force. Putting down another saber jockey isn't outside of her power.

"Don't be so proud of this technological terror you have constructed. The power of this station is insignificant next to the power of the Force."

That is correct, astute powers of observation!

 

At any rate, she bring about the end of the Jedi order, the remnant of Revan's Sith, and nearly the end of the Force.

 

"Don't be so proud of this technological terror you have constructed. The power of this station is insignificant next to the power of the Force."

It's actually...

"The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant, next to the power of the Force!"

But the point has been made a guess.

It's actually...

 

"The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant, next to the power of the Force!"

 

But the point has been made a guess.

I was just about to edit my quote. Nevermind, lol.

That is correct, astute powers of observation!

 

At any rate, she bring about the end of the Jedi order, the remnant of Revan's Sith, and nearly the end of the Force, using knowledge and both sides of the Force.

 

"Don't be so proud of this technological terror you have constructed. The power of this station is insignificant next to the power of the Force."

Now you speak of the force as if Traya is the only one who has it. Revan has himself (he's no slouch) and plenty of Jedi. This isn't a force vs strength in numbers fight.

If you honestly think that Traya can beat Revan in this scenario, then there's nothing I can do to.