Has anyone else noticed that the prices for many crafed items have plummeted to the point where crafting them for profit is no longer worthwhile? Or is this limited to Star Forge?

Some of it of course is due to increased competition due to the merge, but not all of it. Even where there is no one to undercut I see sellers listing items for prices sometimes 1/4 or 1/5 of what I used to earn from them daily. Sometimes they're even listed at break even or less with mat prices.

I still do well with crafting because I've shifted to crafting other things that aren't posted on the GTN as often. I also buy and relist and make credits off of them. I'm still left wondering however why some sellers bother with these dirt cheap listings.

Has anyone else noticed that the prices for many crafed items have plummeted to the point where crafting them for profit is no longer worthwhile? Or is this limited to Star Forge?

 

Some of it of course is due to increased competition due to the merge, but not all of it. Even where there is no one to undercut I see sellers listing items for prices sometimes 1/4 or 1/5 of what I used to earn from them daily. Sometimes they're even listed at break even or less with mat prices.

 

I still do well with crafting because I've shifted to crafting other things that aren't posted on the GTN as often. I also buy and relist and make credits off of them. I'm still left wondering however why some sellers bother with these dirt cheap listings.

There are a handful of factors:

#1 some players - incorrectly - consider materials obtained through play "free" and therefore the profit margin on items crafted with those "free" materials is infinite.

#2 some players are impatient. Firstly they (again) incorrectly assume that the default value is a "proper" value; they do not bother checking the GTN to see what the value of the item really is. Secondly, they post an item at the current GTN, it does not sell and so they think - yet again incorrectly - that the item in question is not in high enough demand to warrant a high price. So they are just dumping it.

#3 some players do not do math well. They fail to calculate the value of the materials properly and undervalue the finished product

#4 some players take critical success into account when determining item value. When one doubles the yield on a crit, they can halve the price and still profit. IMO this is invalid thinking, but others don't.

#5 some players are trying to be nice. They are deeply undercutting in the hopes that a person in need will buy it. But too often players like yourself and me see those deep undercuts and buy them up to repost.

You have already done what I would advise: diversity in what you craft is a key to success; change up what you craft.

I think that the answer is in the title. Stupidity.

I've been crafting ever since and seen a lot, but never has it been as bad as since the merger. I already posted it before somewhere, so I only give one example:

There is one item I craft. There have been a couple of copies available for e. g. 195.000 credits. That was a bit overpriced. Usually, the price would go down a bit, you know the drill. But since the merger, there are some players who... well, I don't know what their endgame is.

One player put 20 copies of that item up for sale for 39.000 credits each. Why would he do that? 195.000 --> 39.000. I don't get it.

Of course, what happens is that he immediately gets undercut and 39.000 becomes the new "high". That doesn't even cover the costs of the mats (unless you use jawa scrap).

Now, you might think: Eventually he will have sold all his copies and then the price normalises again. Wrong. He keeps up the supply, thus keeping the price level much too low.

He could sell all his copies for 100.000 credits as well. Easily. I don't get why he keeps it at 39.000.

And he is not alone. There are others in other categories who do the same. Or maybe it's just one player using different chars. In case he thought he could push competition away like this, he should have realised after a couple of months that his plan failed. He will always get undercut by others. So why do it at 39.000 and not 99.000. *sigh*

I think that the answer is in the title. Stupidity.

 

I've been crafting ever since and seen a lot, but never has it been as bad as since the merger. I already posted it before somewhere, so I only give one example:

 

There is one item I craft. There have been a couple of copies available for e. g. 195.000 credits. That was a bit overpriced. Usually, the price would go down a bit, you know the drill. But since the merger, there are some players who... well, I don't know what their endgame is.

 

One player put 20 copies of that item up for sale for 39.000 credits each. Why would he do that? 195.000 --> 39.000. I don't get it.

 

Of course, what happens is that he immediately gets undercut and 39.000 becomes the new "high". That doesn't even cover the costs of the mats (unless you use jawa scrap).

 

Now, you might think: Eventually he will have sold all his copies and then the price normalises again. Wrong. He keeps up the supply, thus keeping the price level much too low.

 

He could sell all his copies for 100.000 credits as well. Easily. I don't get why he keeps it at 39.000.

 

And he is not alone. There are others in other categories who do the same. Or maybe it's just one player using different chars. In case he thought he could push competition away like this, he should have realised after a couple of months that his plan failed. He will always get undercut by others. So why do it at 39.000 and not 99.000. *sigh*

I've been seeing a lot of that as well. The people who list a page full of items that are a small fraction of the going rate are probably the most baffling of the bunch.

It's not just that some of these sellers are listing for below rock bottom prices, it's that they often list a page full of that item even when demand for it isn't that high that you could sell all of them in a single listing. You're probably not going to sell 15 orange cosmetic armor shells of the same item in a day, for instance. The number of prospective buyers who'd want that item per day isn't likely to be that high.

I've wondered if maybe it is people who fall into #5 on Psandak's post and think they're being nice by selling those items for little profit. Sort of like a giveaway, without actually being a giveaway. The amount of listings far exceeding demand would explain that, since the high number of listings could be a measure to prevent people from buying and relisting. It's much easier to make credits from relisting when it is only a couple items that you could sell before the original seller returns and lists more. If so they're just inadvertently trolling crafters who make their credits from those items to buy the things they want from the GTN.

If they're other people who craft for profit on alts trying to run the competition away..it would seem to be a dumb strategy, as you said. Their competition is going to keep checking those listings and come back as soon they have a window to list at prices that makes crafting those items worthwhile. The only way to keep competition permanently out would be to keep listing at prices so low no one else wants in, in which case they're also tanking their own profits from that item. It defeats the purpose.

I have a number of different crafting skills and multiple toons so I always have enough things to craft daily to dodge price crashes in certain items and earn my daily credit goal. I also have a couple big credit generators that I don't have much competition on, but I feel bad for the players with only one crafter who may not yet have every schematic in their chosen crafting tree. It has got to be a bit harder for them to keep their profits up from taking a dip.

I think that the answer is in the title. Stupidity.

 

I've been crafting ever since and seen a lot, but never has it been as bad as since the merger. I already posted it before somewhere, so I only give one example:

 

There is one item I craft. There have been a couple of copies available for e. g. 195.000 credits. That was a bit overpriced. Usually, the price would go down a bit, you know the drill. But since the merger, there are some players who... well, I don't know what their endgame is.

 

One player put 20 copies of that item up for sale for 39.000 credits each. Why would he do that? 195.000 --> 39.000. I don't get it.

 

Of course, what happens is that he immediately gets undercut and 39.000 becomes the new "high". That doesn't even cover the costs of the mats (unless you use jawa scrap).

 

Now, you might think: Eventually he will have sold all his copies and then the price normalises again. Wrong. He keeps up the supply, thus keeping the price level much too low.

 

He could sell all his copies for 100.000 credits as well. Easily. I don't get why he keeps it at 39.000.

 

And he is not alone. There are others in other categories who do the same. Or maybe it's just one player using different chars. In case he thought he could push competition away like this, he should have realised after a couple of months that his plan failed. He will always get undercut by others. So why do it at 39.000 and not 99.000. *sigh*

I know you probably don't want to be told this, but a lot of the time, when you actually do the math, you'd be surprised how cheap it is to craft most of the non-exotic material crafted goods in this game. Just as a for example: most rating 228 item modifications (grade 10 materials) cost 20k or less to craft (assuming running missions for all materials and having an average of rank 30 influence with companions), BEFORE crits. and yet they sell for 60k to 125k each. that's 200% to 500% profit.

All I am saying is that the 40k price tag might not be losing money. It makes it not worth competing, which is probably what your competitor is hoping to accomplish: still make some profit, while driving out their competition, and when they are the only one's left....jack up the price again.

#5 some players are trying to be nice. They are deeply undercutting in the hopes that a person in need will buy it. But too often players like yourself and me see those deep undercuts and buy them up to repost.

I just wondered what kind of behaviour the direct, 180 degrees opposite of "nice" in this context would be ?

I just wondered what kind of behaviour the direct, 180 degrees opposite of "nice" in this context would be ?

A person who thinks they are being "nice" by posting items at rock bottom prices isn't being nice. Firstly the items are not free so the seller isn't actually giving things away and may even be turning a profit, even if not as much as they'd get if they listed in the usual price range. Second, if they're doing it often they cause other people selling that item regularly to make much less credits from it than they otherwise would, unless the sellers buy and relist. So while buyers potentially get a deal fellow players who are selling are being inconvenienced.

To me being nice is giving things away, which is something I occasionally do. I've also given new players credits or mounts. If people want to be generous...do it by giving things away. Don't do it by posting items on the GTN that are a small fraction of the going rate and in quantities that other sellers, unless they buy and relist, won't be able to sell unless they drop their rates to a range that no longer makes crafting that item for sale worthwhile.

I sell things at low prices. I've also made billions doing it.

In the past I have gotten in game mail much like this thread hitting the same points: below cost, not sharing the market, stupid business tactics. I never sell below cost, and I do not forget to figure in taxes, cost of materials, or my time. When I see something going for much much more than what a product costs me to make I do not stick with what others price at. All I care about is what I consider a fair price, what I consider a fair profit, and also a price that will sell fast. And just to add some perspective here recently something I estimated cost me five thousand to make and not much time my competitors were selling for 100k+. I listed at 45k, and I would consider going a bit lower, but there is also those who buy to resell to consider, at least initially in my pricing strategy.

Often times it does not benefit me either to undercut competitors by a single credit or 100 or 500 as is common. In many of these markets the prices are high enough that sales are slow, so all that happens is someone who logs in more just undercuts me promptly and nothing sells. Thus, I find a way to efficiently and quickly make the product so I can heavily undercut and avoid this.

This is the market working as intended. And just as much as one might make the claim that myself and others who undercut by large amounts are not sharing the market one must also make the point that high prices across the board especially inflated ones are not good for the community either.

There are a handful of factors:

 

#1 some players - incorrectly - consider materials obtained through play "free" and therefore the profit margin on items crafted with those "free" materials is infinite.

 

#2 some players are impatient. Firstly they (again) incorrectly assume that the default value is a "proper" value; they do not bother checking the GTN to see what the value of the item really is. Secondly, they post an item at the current GTN, it does not sell and so they think - yet again incorrectly - that the item in question is not in high enough demand to warrant a high price. So they are just dumping it.

 

#3 some players do not do math well. They fail to calculate the value of the materials properly and undervalue the finished product

 

#4 some players take critical success into account when determining item value. When one doubles the yield on a crit, they can halve the price and still profit. IMO this is invalid thinking, but others don't.

 

#5 some players are trying to be nice. They are deeply undercutting in the hopes that a person in need will buy it. But too often players like yourself and me see those deep undercuts and buy them up to repost.

 

You have already done what I would advise: diversity in what you craft is a key to success; change up what you craft.

there is no crafting in this game. Just Replicating of stock crap items that every other joe has and who ever has the most cash wins.

I'm crafting orange shells and other style gear. Some of those I probably could sell for more, but I sell for the same prices for years now.

When I started I thought about what I would pay and added maybe 10 or 15% depending if it was a rare recipe like the old battle master or war hero rated stuff.

All in all, everthing I craft is cheap enough that F2P players can afford it.

To take for example the Dark Acolyte robes, it has simply next to no material costs, as I don't buy materials. I either send my high level companions or gather nodes on planets or from the conquest decorations while waiting for raid groups to form. Cost for me maybe a few hundreds credits per orange piece. Roughly calculated it once I started, never changed the price afterwards. I concentrate on the old orange shells or archived recipes, since the effort with the newer stuff, both time and materials, is much higher.

Maybe I could ask twice or trice or even ten times more credits, but why? It's enough as it is. My costs haven't changed why should I change the price?

But i simply wont pay that much money for stupid bronze level decorations, dark throne ok maybe, but nor a simple common lamp, chair or waste bin.

Even if there might be players that would pay more, a lot others would not and in case of the dark acolyte set, it is/was starter gear after all, so people still get starter prices from me.

This approach earns me enough money with my two(three) crafters, synthweaving and armormech and the occasional sold old colour artifice crystal, to provide for my whole legacy of 47 characters.

Without needing to do any quests for credits farming at all. Even the repair costs of my raid characters rarely cause a net minus in a raid and wipe heavy week. Though of course my other characters earn little money too with weeklys, FPs and so on, but I last time I had to do daily quests for the purpose of credit farming, was before SoR got rid of the costs at class trainers.

My ~ 70,000,000 credits(slowly but steady rising) now are more than enough for what I need. The occasional shopping tour for CM stuff or decorations included. Though the latter has become rare for me, since the prices exploded on my server.

I just don't pay that much for a stupid simple waste bin

I sell things at low prices. I've also made billions doing it.

 

In the past I have gotten in game mail much like this thread hitting the same points: below cost, not sharing the market, stupid business tactics. I never sell below cost, and I do not forget to figure in taxes, cost of materials, or my time. When I see something going for much much more than what a product costs me to make I do not stick with what others price at. All I care about is what I consider a fair price, what I consider a fair profit, and also a price that will sell fast. And just to add some perspective here recently something I estimated cost me five thousand to make and not much time my competitors were selling for 100k+. I listed at 45k, and I would consider going a bit lower, but there is also those who buy to resell to consider, at least initially in my pricing strategy.

 

Often times it does not benefit me either to undercut competitors by a single credit or 100 or 500 as is common. In many of these markets the prices are high enough that sales are slow, so all that happens is someone who logs in more just undercuts me promptly and nothing sells. Thus, I find a way to efficiently and quickly make the product so I can heavily undercut and avoid this.

 

This is the market working as intended. And just as much as one might make the claim that myself and others who undercut by large amounts are not sharing the market one must also make the point that high prices across the board especially inflated ones are not good for the community either.

I enjoyed this topic. A jolly good popcorn read watching the players cry that they cant gut the average player for all they're worth when all they paid was 20k

want to know a secret? it disgusts me in my core. I do solo ranked every week on multiple toons, and am rewarded with charged matters (3x for each toon) for my trouble. I take those three to my 600 sorc with a 50 comp and make him craft 236 crit aug, while filling in the pve mats for about 200k. I then sell it at 2.7m a pop with about a 50/50 crit chance rate..... I spent 200k and made 2.7m/4.5m. I wont deny I could have sold it for 1.5m, or 1m, but the point is it took me 200k to make 1-2. and it sells for almost 3m at the lowest

I enjoyed this topic. A jolly good popcorn read watching the players cry that they cant gut the average player for all they're worth when all they paid was 20k

 

want to know a secret? it disgusts me in my core. I do solo ranked every week on multiple toons, and am rewarded with charged matters (3x for each toon) for my trouble. I take those three to my 600 sorc with a 50 comp and make him craft 236 crit aug, while filling in the pve mats for about 200k. I then sell it at 2.7m a pop with about a 50/50 crit chance rate..... I spent 200k and made 2.7m/4.5m. I wont deny I could have sold it for 1.5m, or 1m, but the point is it took me 200k to make 1-2. and it sells for almost 3m at the lowest

So the time you spent doing ranked PvP is worth nothing to you? My point is that your time has value. Granted, ranked PvP may be exactly what you want to be doing with your play time, but that still does not mean that the time you invest in that activity has no value; someone else who dislikes PvP is basically paying you to do PvP for them.

So the time you spent doing ranked PvP is worth nothing to you? My point is that your time has value. Granted, ranked PvP may be exactly what you want to be doing with your play time, but that still does not mean that the time you invest in that activity has no value; someone else who dislikes PvP is basically paying you to do PvP for them.

It does seem many forget about factoring in opportunity cost when determining pricing.

I sell things at low prices. I've also made billions doing it.

 

In the past I have gotten in game mail much like this thread hitting the same points: below cost, not sharing the market, stupid business tactics. I never sell below cost, and I do not forget to figure in taxes, cost of materials, or my time. When I see something going for much much more than what a product costs me to make I do not stick with what others price at. All I care about is what I consider a fair price, what I consider a fair profit, and also a price that will sell fast. And just to add some perspective here recently something I estimated cost me five thousand to make and not much time my competitors were selling for 100k+. I listed at 45k, and I would consider going a bit lower, but there is also those who buy to resell to consider, at least initially in my pricing strategy.

 

Often times it does not benefit me either to undercut competitors by a single credit or 100 or 500 as is common. In many of these markets the prices are high enough that sales are slow, so all that happens is someone who logs in more just undercuts me promptly and nothing sells. Thus, I find a way to efficiently and quickly make the product so I can heavily undercut and avoid this.

 

This is the market working as intended. And just as much as one might make the claim that myself and others who undercut by large amounts are not sharing the market one must also make the point that high prices across the board especially inflated ones are not good for the community either.

The items I was referring to weren't ones that if sold at the rates I was formerly accustomed to, might have ended up as a relist because of heavy competition. These were items that generally speaking nearly always sold the day they were listed and at the original listed price. I've been crafting for a few years now so I've worked out the sweet spot in price ranges where I'm very likely to get a sale while still being in price ranges that make the time investment worthwhile.

Of course the success rate isn't 100% but I'd say about 85% of my listings sell on Day 1. That is still the case for me as well, because if items are severely undercut to make their sale no longer worthwhile to me, I simply move on to other items to make up for it. That's one of the benefits of having multiple crafters with most of the schematics. My daily credit goal is also relatively modest. 2-3 million per day is easily obtainable and doesn't require a lot of time investment. I also sometimes make quite a bit more than that if I devote more time to it or sell augments or 246 hilts or barrels.

So the time you spent doing ranked PvP is worth nothing to you? My point is that your time has value. Granted, ranked PvP may be exactly what you want to be doing with your play time, but that still does not mean that the time you invest in that activity has no value; someone else who dislikes PvP is basically paying you to do PvP for them.

Exactly that. Perhaps some players don't value the time investment as much but when I see items that could go for 100,000 credits easy being sold for 20,000, and not because heavy competition is driving the price way down, I have to wonder why the crafter bothers.

The other issue is that a person could run the Heroics for a single planet at Level 70 and in 10 minutes or less earn 250,000 credits. Given the easy availability of credits currently in this game 20,000 is practically the equivalent of 1,000 credits at launch. An armor shell crafted from level 1 or 2 mats may be easy and cheap to make, but from my point of view 20,000 would still be far under cutting it's value (assuming it has cosmetic appeal that puts it in high demand...and many do) considering the ease at which 20,000 credits can be obtained. A single quest completion would net close to that.

Let's say I sell one of those items at 20,000 per day every day for a month. I've earned 600,000 for that item over the course of that month before subtracting crafting costs and the GTN tax. Why bother when one hour of Heroics would net more than a month spent crafting that item? Or when there are other items that that I could earn hundreds of thousands for crafting instead during that same time frame?

Selling 1 per day of that same item at 100,000 would land you 3,000,000 over the course of a month, before crafting costs and GTN taxes are subtracted. 3,000,000 goes a lot further on the GTN than 600,000 and alone can buy you most Cartel Market items on the GTN. 600,000 in contrast, does not go very far. It's the difference between a popular gold or silver item and a less popular silver or bronze.

@Aeneas_Falco,

But I sell 250 items a week at an average of 50k each...and I invest a grand total of 4 hours to that process in that week...heroics don't even come close: that 3.25 million credits an hour.

I shake my head every time i open GTN at the prices. People see that an item lets say is 300000 and there is like 20 of the same item. Now the most reasonable price is the 300k. BUT! there is these crazy people think if they make one of their items worth 3000000 that some poor un observant fool will see his at a glance, think 300k not bad and click on it and buy it and then realized it was 3Mill not 300k, CAN WE SAY NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

thats 1 issue...

The main one is undercutting. Take that same 300k item that there is 20 of. Some one else comes in with same item sees 20 of the same for 300k and decides he wants to sell his faster so he undercuts the others because he or she has NO PATIENCE, to wait till his item sells for 300k, he is willing to loose a 100k or what ever amount, and sell his item at 200k. All because of a lack of Patience. So there for you get undercutting of the prices.

It Hurts the GTN and every ones wallets so to speak. Thats my gripe on this.....

Wishing you all Good Health & Peace.........

I don't get it, why people undercut with THAT MUCH difference.... why not undercutting with 1-5 credits and keep yourself in a range?...

Because...

• people do not bother checking prices; they post at a price they know will sell (because it sold at that price before) rather than taking the five seconds to check the current value. Or worse, they post at the default value not realizing that the default GTN value is only four times what they would get from the vendor; not a good measure of item value.
  
• people want to be "white knights"; they see what they consider to be ridiculously high prices and decide to give "the little guy" a better chance to acquire the item in question.
  
• people cap their prices to expand buyer pool. If you price something over 350k then you limit the pool of buyers to subscribers only; at 350k you open up the pool buyers to Preferred, and Subscribers.
  
• people see current prices and in all candor they are ridiculously high; I have price caps on all my crafted items, I look at current prices, see that they are outta whack, KNOW they won't sell at those outta whack prices, and so I set my price at the cap where I KNOW buyers have bought them before; why post something at a price that you know it won't sell at?
  
• some people alter there undercuts based on how high the value current is and how much the item cost in the first place; i.e. something I craft costs me 20k to make, the current value is 50k I'll undercut by a handful of credits posting at like 49,995 or 49,950 (depends on my mood) to maximize my profits. But if that same item is currently valued at 150k, I am more likely to undercut by a little more like 149,500 or even 149,000. It's all about marketing and the appearance of getting a deal. I am still making a TON of profit, but I am more likely to make that sale because the buyers sees my 149k and the next lowest is 150k
  

@Aeneas_Falco,

 

But I sell 250 items a week at an average of 50k each...and I invest a grand total of 4 hours to that process in that week...heroics don't even come close: that 3.25 million credits an hour.

I'm referring to one specific item over the course of a month and not the entirety of everything listed. Of course if you take into account everything that you sell it is much more profitable than Heroics. There is one item alone that I sell that earns 3,000,000, though it isn't something that is purchased daily.

The example I was using was also a particular item that you can't sell in large volume even if listed at 20,000 credits. The level of demand for some of the orange shells (or blues or purples for that matter) from the synthweaving, artifice, or armortech trees is such that you might get a sale or three per day from that item but you aren't going to sell ten or fifteen, even if listed at rock bottom prices. If you can sell that one to three per day of that item at 100,000 credits easily it seems like a bit of a waste to list at 20,000 if competition hasn't drove the price down and you can't make up for the lower price with volume.

50,000 is a reasonable price for the great majority of crafted items as well. I'd say that is probably where I average out, though of course some things get listed at quite a bit more.

I also see people occasionally listing artifact (purple) quality items for less than the prototype (blue) quality version of that item are going for, even when that low price isn't dictated by competition and when the blue quality item isn't overpriced. They're listings that I quite often buy up for relisting, but I am left wondering why the crafter is selling themself short.

You know whats fun about buying up and relisting renewable resources? The bought out player can just do it again and reap your profit.

The person buying and relisting makes much more however.

Let's say the item in question was sold for 20,000. The seller might have made 20,000 on that sale (not factoring in the GTN tax or crew skills costs), but the person who then relists and sells it for 100,000 has made 80,000 off that same item. (also not factoring in the GTN tax)

In the end it may work out for both if the original seller is content with that 20,000, but had he or she listed at 100,000 they wouldn't have to share all the potential profit for that item with another seller. Note that in the example I used it is the reseller that reaps most of the profit protential from that item, not the actual crafter.

So the time you spent doing ranked PvP is worth nothing to you? My point is that your time has value. Granted, ranked PvP may be exactly what you want to be doing with your play time, but that still does not mean that the time you invest in that activity has no value; someone else who dislikes PvP is basically paying you to do PvP for them.

I'll tell you what my pvp mats are worth to me, and I'll tell you why because its a good reason.

I enjoy solo ranked, therefore I get paid for what I enjoy doing.

now for some, 236 augs (1% dps increase in 14 augs) is worth buying.

most of us have about 30-40 alts. 14 augs for 30-40 alts is not worth 3m a piece. I would gladly price them at 250k which is roughly 1-2 planets of herocis each, because that is all they are worth. you are supplying a 1% per 14 dps increase. you are not supplying a 10% dps inc per aug. its not worth a full day of heroics for .14% a pop. this game was made for alts, it was made for experimentation and ease of play. not grinding all day long for a .14% dps inc on your main

The person buying and relisting makes much more however.

But why all the complaining in this thread then, if there's much to be made buying and reselling? It would seem that despite whatever profits can be made from buying and reselling that it's not nearly the same profit; and, considering that buying and relisting wouldn't appear to be all that much work either, there must be some other issues that make it a further nuisance.

In the end it comes down to that in some markets people value their time far too highly or are being very inefficient about how to get materials. For a great many of crafted things I could run missions while I'm running heroics. That's two birds with one stone. Why I should feel the need to charge many times what it costs me then to make the product I don't know.

I have no idea what markets people here are in. Some markets seem fair. But I'm left wondering if all the complaining here isn't just a justification for greed.