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Bioware buff dps specs this class is a joke

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Sage / Sorcerer
Bioware buff dps specs this class is a joke

BraverDre's Avatar


BraverDre
01.02.2018 , 11:48 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Hoppinswtor View Post
The specs are pretty much fine; it's the defensive that needs adjusting, because you waste too many GCDs trying to keep yourself alive in pvp.

The damage isn't too far off the mark. With the new augments, a passable madness parse is like 9800; a passable lightning parse is like 9550. That's not too far from the other ranged classes. Madness only needs about a 200 dps increase; lightning needs maybe 50 at most. If bioware simply buffed Demolish overall damage by 11 percent for madness, and buffed Thundering Blast by 2 percent, they would hit these targets.

Moving static barrier off the GCD (and giving it a 4 second cooldown) would go a long way. Better yet, move resurgence off the GCD as well (but extend its CD to 9 seconds). This would still emphasize kiting while rewarding players with high apm by increasing their DPS under pressure.
I totally agree witg u. These changes would fix the broken class. I wish they will do that
In the nearest future like 5.7

Dajman's Avatar


Dajman
01.03.2018 , 06:36 PM | #22
I really hate to be that guy but coming from the progression grind in wow to raid ops over here i feel I can't keep my mouth shut about this.
Sorce/sage is bottom of the pack sure.... but bottom of the pack in swtor is 10-15% below the top. I celebrate that because frankly 10-15% Is AWESOME for a dps gap in an mmo anymore. It's hard to get much closer than that and coming from wow where literally 1 item on a class can make the difference of 20+% on your parse ea/bioware have done a pretty good job.

Sadly if numbers are involved there has to be a top and there has to be a bottom. But every spec in this game is capable of pulling the required dps to down bosses without anyone else needing to make up for their lack there of. Vs other leaders in the mmo world where there are gaps big enough to make certain specs a true liability to have in your team....

Sorry to whatever spec ends up on the bottom because people will always view it as terrible and weak but grats to the devs for having such a tight race in the parse potential through what is pretty damn good balance.

BraverDre's Avatar


BraverDre
01.04.2018 , 05:53 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Dajman View Post
I really hate to be that guy but coming from the progression grind in wow to raid ops over here i feel I can't keep my mouth shut about this.
Sorce/sage is bottom of the pack sure.... but bottom of the pack in swtor is 10-15% below the top. I celebrate that because frankly 10-15% Is AWESOME for a dps gap in an mmo anymore. It's hard to get much closer than that and coming from wow where literally 1 item on a class can make the difference of 20+% on your parse ea/bioware have done a pretty good job.

Sadly if numbers are involved there has to be a top and there has to be a bottom. But every spec in this game is capable of pulling the required dps to down bosses without anyone else needing to make up for their lack there of. Vs other leaders in the mmo world where there are gaps big enough to make certain specs a true liability to have in your team....

Sorry to whatever spec ends up on the bottom because people will always view it as terrible and weak but grats to the devs for having such a tight race in the parse potential through what is pretty damn good balance.
Sorry but u are wrong. Sorc dps classes are broken and cant pass most NiM dps checks without beeing carried. Feels like u are talking about something u are not 100% sure about. This class is so broken that it feels like it should not even exist as a dps. Devs should delete sorc dps or fix it.

I would never recommend playing the game as a sorc if they want to do end game content like NiM or ranked pvp.

Dajman's Avatar


Dajman
01.04.2018 , 07:17 AM | #24
I think the mentality of dps is all that matters has absolutely obliterated specs, classes, and even whole games in the past. To everyone who overlooks raid utility I have to say shame... (because I'm not really a pvper but this could potentially stand against that as well). As others have pointed out dead dps is 0 dps. Groups that get hung up on progression are often held up due to a mentality that is "I must deeps and fill my role at all times no matter what" then end up dead of end up with a dead team mate they could have saved. A couple GCDs to save someone are worth so much more than the extra 20-30k damage you could have put on that boss. Not to mention your damage buff for the raid should easily close the gap that they have to "carry" you through. If you give everyone even a 50dps increase through that then you can easily make a point there is 300+ dps would be gone if you weren't brought. That extra boost helps get your group through burn phases and more. The pull can legit save someone from fire/cc they got hit with and at a small cost of 1 gcd.

I'm not saying being higher wouldn't be nice... I mean who doesn't like sliding their face across their keyboard and being number 1? But the gap isn't that big. This game has a difference between the specs which is expected but that gap is so small it ain't funny. It's just dps is a good trade for being able to have a large impact on a fight. Frankly for GS being able to reduce all damage on the whole raid by 20% for 20 seconds I would say they might do too much damage. That is a spell that can single handedly change an attempt. Sorc has some of the best spells that are hidden on usefulness to logs that people overlook. It's a shame.

Oh and if your raid lead is hanging you out to dry because your dps wasn't up to snuff because you saved someone or tried to save someone then you should look at them and their mental stability as a stumbling block more than trying to blame a class. All the classes in tor are made to offer so much more than just dps. But if it's not able to be measured people don't care about it and whine about what can be measured.

What is the worth of a good raider? What makes a good player? Is it how well they can use the same static rotation of 50% of their spells that they get to practice on day after day to eek out that last 20dps their spec limits them too (maybe changing the duration of a fight by 5-10 seconds)? Or is it how well they use the spells that can't be practiced by simple spam on a dummy but can alter the outcome of a fight entirely?

10% less damage than the top classes isn't going to make your team fail. Mistakes that kill you because your trying to prove your place on a team will.

SammuelColdheart's Avatar


SammuelColdheart
01.04.2018 , 01:41 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Dajman View Post
I think the mentality of dps is all that matters has absolutely obliterated specs, classes, and even whole games in the past. To everyone who overlooks raid utility I have to say shame... (because I'm not really a pvper but this could potentially stand against that as well). As others have pointed out dead dps is 0 dps. Groups that get hung up on progression are often held up due to a mentality that is "I must deeps and fill my role at all times no matter what" then end up dead of end up with a dead team mate they could have saved. A couple GCDs to save someone are worth so much more than the extra 20-30k damage you could have put on that boss. Not to mention your damage buff for the raid should easily close the gap that they have to "carry" you through. If you give everyone even a 50dps increase through that then you can easily make a point there is 300+ dps would be gone if you weren't brought. That extra boost helps get your group through burn phases and more. The pull can legit save someone from fire/cc they got hit with and at a small cost of 1 gcd.

I'm not saying being higher wouldn't be nice... I mean who doesn't like sliding their face across their keyboard and being number 1? But the gap isn't that big. This game has a difference between the specs which is expected but that gap is so small it ain't funny. It's just dps is a good trade for being able to have a large impact on a fight. Frankly for GS being able to reduce all damage on the whole raid by 20% for 20 seconds I would say they might do too much damage. That is a spell that can single handedly change an attempt. Sorc has some of the best spells that are hidden on usefulness to logs that people overlook. It's a shame.

Oh and if your raid lead is hanging you out to dry because your dps wasn't up to snuff because you saved someone or tried to save someone then you should look at them and their mental stability as a stumbling block more than trying to blame a class. All the classes in tor are made to offer so much more than just dps. But if it's not able to be measured people don't care about it and whine about what can be measured.

What is the worth of a good raider? What makes a good player? Is it how well they can use the same static rotation of 50% of their spells that they get to practice on day after day to eek out that last 20dps their spec limits them too (maybe changing the duration of a fight by 5-10 seconds)? Or is it how well they use the spells that can't be practiced by simple spam on a dummy but can alter the outcome of a fight entirely?

10% less damage than the top classes isn't going to make your team fail. Mistakes that kill you because your trying to prove your place on a team will.
If you think that such a thing is more important then the damage output... I must disagree. I will tell you why, because each class has its own raid buff... but they still have higher damage output... while sorcerers hang in the back... sorry but that is the reality. While their raid buff is as valuable as any other... One raid buff skill, can't overcome the lack of damage. Simply because it will help, but it won't pull you to the top. I am not sure why there should be top and bottom DPS, that would be unbalanced. A game which is balanced is a game which equally gives important skills to all classes and the same damage output for DPS and the same defense and threat levels for tanks, and the same healing outputs as the rest... that is truly balanced game and Bioware is far from that... if they continue to use this stupid table of higher and lower... they will never have happy players. That how things truly are. If they want true balance they should consider putting DPS and the rest of the stats for the specific classes on the same pedestal if not with skills then with gear...
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shyroman's Avatar


shyroman
01.04.2018 , 02:11 PM | #26
Sorc dps have cleared every nim fight without being carried. Is madness below all the rest dps in its category? Yes and probably should get a slight buff. Is it a terrible class that can't do anything without being carried? No, the best sorcs have proved that.
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Dajman's Avatar


Dajman
01.04.2018 , 02:38 PM | #27
https://youtu.be/pIpsjh_K_dc

A game where every class puts out the same dps, hps and dtps is no longer a game. It's a communistic online world that guess what? Still has people who play well and top charts and people who suck and don't.
Expecting a game to have perfect balance to make you happy is truly only setting yourself up for a lifetime of anger and sadness.

I love how well this episode of fairly odd parents demonstrates the flaw behind absolute equality. A game where every class is the same would be a truly bad game to play.

WayOfTheWarriorx's Avatar


WayOfTheWarriorx
01.04.2018 , 04:22 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by SammuelColdheart View Post
If you think that such a thing is more important then the damage output... I must disagree. I will tell you why, because each class has its own raid buff... but they still have higher damage output... while sorcerers hang in the back... sorry but that is the reality. While their raid buff is as valuable as any other... One raid buff skill, can't overcome the lack of damage. Simply because it will help, but it won't pull you to the top. I am not sure why there should be top and bottom DPS, that would be unbalanced. A game which is balanced is a game which equally gives important skills to all classes and the same damage output for DPS and the same defense and threat levels for tanks, and the same healing outputs as the rest... that is truly balanced game and Bioware is far from that... if they continue to use this stupid table of higher and lower... they will never have happy players. That how things truly are. If they want true balance they should consider putting DPS and the rest of the stats for the specific classes on the same pedestal if not with skills then with gear...
I really have to agree with this one specific point, a raid buff cannot be the purpose of a class and it's only real asset. 10 seconds out of a boss fight isn't very much. Furthermore, Sorcs are not the only ones all have raid buffs of one sought or another, they all aid the group as a whole and contribute something towards the clear. Sorcs have their raid buff, Assassins have Assassin's shelter, Marauders have blood thirst, Mercs have their alacrity raid buff, so it really can't be used as a sole reason for a classes relative position compared to other classes.

That said, I do however agree with the other poster who stated that Star Wars is not the only MMO where DPS output is not uniform across DPS classes and I don't think they should be. The only way that could be fair is if you than have every dps spec with heals and defensives at the same level. That would render classes and specs nothing more than aesthetic choices. People tend to try to want to overlook all of the things a class brings to the table in determining relative DPS among the classes. In that regard Sorcs bring a great deal of utility and support that the more directly combat orientated classes do and this must be taken into consideration. That said, things like self heals, mobility, escapes, CC packages, perma-stealth, off healing, off tanking, bringing people back from the dead during combat , attack range, ease of play and a host of other abilities absolutely effect outcomes even if they do not cause direct damage. - This is the inherent problem with how BW has attempted class balance in 5.x. The less self sustaining a DPS spec is the more damage it should do. The more heals a DPS spec has the less damage it should do compared to DPS specs with less or no self heals. You can't have a spec with the option to heal itself do the same damage as a one that can't . There is a cardinal rule regarding DPS output, you can't DPS when you are dead. Again, not saying that difference should be huge, it shouldn't, but it should be in some measure.

The problem with Sorc DPS self heals isn't that it comes at the price of DPS, it should come at the price of DPS, the problem is that some other DPS specs with self heals don't pay for their heals at the price of DPS [Mercs and Sniper's for example] and they should, just like Sorcs. Given the very nature of Sorcs, they should have the best self heals among DPS specs. Heals and DPS are inherently linked in terms of balance. You cannot base survival soley on damage mitigation DCDs because they do not provide any rebound. Both contribute greatly to relative survival.

If Sorc DPS cannot meet the minimum DPS requirements to complete all content, than they should be buffed to that level, but I don't think that is actually the case.
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RossWright's Avatar


RossWright
01.11.2018 , 08:18 AM | #29
i came back after almost 5 years of being away and im a sage main but i see everyone tearing apart the sorcs now i know the sorc is the sage counterpart so does this mean the sage is hella broken too?
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VongCommanderJah's Avatar


VongCommanderJah
01.12.2018 , 08:52 AM | #30
Problem is people are often using what they see / experience in pvp to talk about pve, and vice-versa ... It doesn't work like that. And talking about sorc / sage utility in general imply that you disregard the spec.

Any seasoned pvper will agree that healing sorc / sages are very good for all the utility they bring with the healing output which is great.
On the other hand, when people see a sorc / sage dpsing they mostly aren't afraid / or focus them since they get destroyed very easily.

Yes we have bubble, teleport, shield, self heal, knock back, a sprint. Just listing them like this may confuse the starter sorc that he has tools to do well in pvp as a damage dealer but he'll learn the hard way that most classes have it better : because they can kill opponents. You have to take 100% defensive utility and NEVER play aggressive otherwise you won't be of any help to your team.

Every sorc /sage should go heal or reroll another ranged dps class. That's where we're atm
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