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Notes on BioChem and Cybertech in Game Update 1.1

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Notes on BioChem and Cybertech in Game Update 1.1
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McVade's Avatar


McVade
01.13.2012 , 04:33 PM | #131
Quote: Originally Posted by GabeAmatangelo View Post
Hello all,

Quick addendum to Georg's post.

PvP overcharge consumable was meant to share a cooldown with adrenals and not stack with the power ups you can run over to pick up in Warzone maps. So players stacking all three were reaching combat numbers higher than intended, which is why we will be changing that in 1.1.

Additionally, we will continue to monitor and tune crafting professions to ensure they are in line with combat targets and toward the goal of keeping them viable in end game but not mandatory for participation. Currently there are several Armormech, Armstech, Synthweaving and Artifice recipes that can be found in end game content. We will be adding more in future updates.

-Gabe
Thank you for clarifying.

To be honest, I really don't like that design idea when you combine it with reusable consumables. Just given how important burst is in PvP, other professions really get shafted because not only do they need to buy consumables in order to compete (on my server, the high end stuff goes for a ridiculous fortune), but they have to buy them from the same people who DON'T have to buy them, or even make them once they have their reusables. It's like double dipping in one profession perk.

I would honestly give some consideration to the reusables being banned in Warzone play or on Ilum. They already have the best profession hands down in PvE, even after the nerfs. They don't need it in PvP as well. Heck, no other profession even touches PvP with a 10 foot pole.

If they want to use consumables in PvP, let them use the same ones we do. They still get to make them at cost while we have to buy them at a profit to the maker. That's enough of an edge.
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Dronp's Avatar


Dronp
01.13.2012 , 04:40 PM | #132
Quote: Originally Posted by McVade View Post
Thank you for clarifying.

To be honest, I really don't like that design idea when you combine it with reusable consumables. Just given how important burst is in PvP, other professions really get shafted because not only do they need to buy consumables in order to compete (on my server, the high end stuff goes for a ridiculous fortune), but they have to buy them from the same people who DON'T have to buy them, or even make them once they have their reusables. It's like double dipping in one profession perk.

I would honestly give some consideration to the reusables being banned in Warzone play or on Ilum. They already have the best profession hands down in PvE, even after the nerfs. They don't need it in PvP as well. Heck, no other profession even touches PvP with a 10 foot pole.

If they want to use consumables in PvP, let them use the same ones we do. They still get to make them at cost while we have to buy them at a profit to the maker. That's enough of an edge.
I agree reusable consumables have no place in pvp. It just makes the profession mandatory for everyone who wants to pvp seriously. I dont find it fun to abuse consumables but I do it because its easy to do and gives a huge advantage. Its just terrible design.

Herrenos's Avatar


Herrenos
01.13.2012 , 04:41 PM | #133
As a biochemist, I wholeheartedly agree on the adrenals cost for non-biochems.

It's ridiculous to the point of being unfeasible for non-biochemists to use adrenals. I didn't even buy the recipes from the trainer.

A single craft of adrenals should produce 5 items with 7 to 10 being the critical value. Alternatively, make adrenals have an hour duration after their first usage, with infinite re-use in that hour (subject to cooldowns).

If this doesn't happen every raider and serious pvp'er will be a biochemist if they want to be competitive.

The medpac thing was NOT the problem. You nerfed the wrong thing. Medpac OP-ness will scale out of the game as health and damage values increase. Adrenal OP-ness will not.

EDITL oh and buff other professions. As long as I can get stats or abilities via Bio/Cyber that I can't get any other way, and other professions don't have this, then they're worthless.

Zellgarith's Avatar


Zellgarith
01.13.2012 , 04:43 PM | #134
Another way of fixing this problem would be to make the purple crafted items bind on equip and allow players to sell them on the ah and hand them out to their guildys. also making it so that the items are unusable if you switch to a different crafting is ridiculous, by allowing people to change crafting it allows them to find an additional time sink leveling a new crafting set and having to learn all of the new schematics removing that ability because your already crafted items will no longer work is disappointing.

A friend of mine pointed this thread out to me and said but wow does this with their crafting, my only response is that with everything this game currently has going for it why copy something like wow when there is a better way of doing it. This fix will only limit the crafting system and remove another time sink and money sink that this game has, if these items only work for biochem users then biochem will still be a requirement because you cant use them at all unless your bioche. This does not fix the problem, in fact it doesnt do anything to fix the problem at all.

Psykhe's Avatar


Psykhe
01.13.2012 , 04:43 PM | #135
Quote: Originally Posted by Greyfeld View Post
Equal + free = better

You are the exception that proves the rule. There will always be a handful of people that prefer to make their own gear instead of buying it, but that doesn't change the fact that the wide majority have realized the worthlessness of crafting when laid beside free gear.

Except it is not equal, as mentioned already. The amount of stuff you can get from commendations is worse in selection. You being able to make your optimal setup is not possible for most, if not all specs.

That is a fact.

Also, it is impossible to outfit yourself fully with commendation gear only. If I invest all the commendations from a planet I can fully upgrade at most 3 items.

That it is also a fact.

And crafting can also make purple gear at all level stages while with commendations you get only blue gear. So you can create superior gear with crafting even if you ignore the obvious selection limitations with commendation gear.

This ... (wait for it) ... is also a fact.



That crafting while leveling is worthless, now that is no fact. Claiming that is a quite simply a lie.

Mind, at max level I would agree that (non-biochem) crafting is pointless.

Arconon's Avatar


Arconon
01.13.2012 , 04:47 PM | #136
and something this obvious didn't come up during BETA?!?!?
pathetic........

FarVision's Avatar


FarVision
01.13.2012 , 04:50 PM | #137
Quote: Originally Posted by KerinKor View Post
In other words, Bioware are letting a small number of hardcore dictate the game's design.

kthxbai.

Yes. Patching by forum isn't really what I had in mind for this.

We'll see how it goes. This is strike two. If this becomes the 'carefully though out' method for product development, I'm finding something else.

Wraeththu's Avatar


Wraeththu
01.13.2012 , 04:55 PM | #138
Quote: Originally Posted by Ebena View Post
The biggest problem with those schematics is that the schematic itself is BOP and the item it crafts is usually BOP as well.

Can you make the items the schematics produce not BOP? Locking in each crafting profession makes it hard for any player driven economy. At the moment there are only a few categories of items that are bought from players.
Yeah, problem is, you can't have a player-driven economy when crafting isn't required or even desired. Since one of Bioware's design requirements is to make crafting optional, you will never have a crafting economy. What you CAN do though is make crafting compelling on a personal level, which is what WoW and some of the other games have done by putting in the BoP items you're talking about.

If you want a player driven economy, you need to set the game up more like Eve, where the ability to produce an item is restricted, thereby making crafting worthwhile. In a game where schematics are plentiful, the act of producing is worthless, since production actually converts materials from a generic state of worth to a more specific state of less worth.

Rift tried a middling system of this initially by putting in crafting tokens. It put an artificial restriction on production for the initial period of the game, but cyclically it became worthless during large periods as people became able to produce anything until new things showed up. At the end though, BoPs were the only bonus to a crafting profession.

The reason Bio is currently considered useful is primarily because the item is BoP. If it wasn't, people would complain intially because people would be selling a bunch, but in the end everyone would have a buddy with Bio who would produce all their needs for cost, and the profession would go back to being anything but.

TLDR: Either restrict schematics permanently or put in BoPs that are better than anything else for that slot, else crafting is not compelling and is a huge cash sink. There is no middle ground.

Bioware SHOULD know this, but clearly don't, because their design requirements are contradictory. Until they actually get around to resolving their requirement problems, crafting in this game will always be a black mark against it.

Ezrya's Avatar


Ezrya
01.13.2012 , 04:59 PM | #139
People were already noticing this in beta, so I'm not sure how it was left alone for so long. The problem isn't the strength of the items. It's the fact that Biochem and Cybertech are the only skills that provide any BoP bonuses. Even if nerfed, those crew skills still have items that are not available without the crew skill. The same isn't true of the other crafting skills.

There are two possible solutions: add BoP bonuses to the other skills to make them competitive, or completely get rid of the BoP bonuses to Biochem and Cybertech. A nerf will only work if it's enough to render the items useless, in which case the items may as well be removed anyway. Personally, I favor adding bonuses, not removing them. I think that would make everyone happy.

Jonneh's Avatar


Jonneh
01.13.2012 , 05:03 PM | #140
Quote: Originally Posted by GeorgZoeller View Post

TL;DR: Fancy words for ‘we nerfed BioChem and Cybertech endgame products’ because they were so good that players started considering them mandatory. Your choice of profession is not supposed to be the deciding factor for participation and success in endgame content. We still believe that BioChem and Cybertech are very worthwhile Crew Skills, especially considering the significant fortune players with these professions are able to realize on the GTN... they are however no longer the ‘golden ticket’ into endgame content.
Your emphasis here is totally wrong imo.

Yes, Cybertech and Biochem are still worthwhile. They are the only two professions that are in fact, even after these nerfs. Armourmech doesn *nothing* for my character. I can make gear for peoples companions. Yay. Endgame impact? There are some craftables I can make which are worse than easymode raid drops, and require a purple crafting consumable. Endgame impct? Still zero.

Armstech, Armourmech and probably Synthweaving/Archeology all need another look imo. If you believe Biochem should have infinite consumables then where is the equivalent for the other professions?
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