Interesting, thanks for putting this together OP. There're plenty of info. sources on tactics, gear, etc., but gaming philosophies like these are rare indeed. I didn't see anything worth debating about in the content, it makes sense.

Hopefully not too many people take it to heart though. Emotional immaturity and irrational decisions are what lead to their slipups, and help my fun and scores

Well written OP. More than likely what you wrote won't resonate with everyone here, but those that understand it, will be at a different level of play.

"You play to win the game" -Herm Edwards

Of course in video games griefing people is a sport in its own, but when something is on the line, I'll be there with only one goal in mind

@Aluvi: Thank you. I feel obligated to credit Sirlin's writings again, as it is his words more than mine (which in some ways come from his) that will change and help people grow.

@Ycoga: I don't see how exceling in real life and exceling in a game are conflicts of interest, provided you don't take exceling in a game to mean "Play every spare hour you can." If that what you took from the writings, what suggestions would you make for me to properly distinguish the two?

@Assassin: Sadly it is not words of intraspection that turn the masses, but if even one person takes the transformation I did, then I feel wasting a few hours of spare time (written mostly between matches or playing Tera with the earlier mentioned ***-kicker) worth it.

@Theronfett: Please feel free to giggle. =P Sometimes I think I'm silly too when I'm daydreaming arguments and game features on the bus or on a break at work.

@L-Randle: Thank you, and that's a nice quote. If I don't get to it first, maybe you can let me know who it's from. Might need to added it to my list of quotes!

@Lintman: Is there a way you think I can make that more clear? I've already adjusted some of it, but even in your example one needs to know the true enemy. As my opponent, you can flag me for interference, push me, kill me, slow me down, and in general be a hellion, but those actions are legitimate moves and strategies. That doesn't make you my "True Enemy" though, and as long as I don't take it personally and understand you are blocking me for PvP purposes, then I won't become frustrated or angry at you. Likewise, if I did the same to you, I believe you would not take it personally. If we were able to talk at the end of the match, we may even trade compliments and playful jabs at the other. In game we are opponents, in life we are not Enemies.

@UGLYMJR: No offense taken, I've grown to like being a geek. Most of my friends and loved ones are too. I'm glad Jadescythe was able to perhaps better sum up/explain the key points in this thread. I am thinking of expanding "Where is the Line?" to explain that there must be a disconnect from yourself and the game. As with "Know the True Enemy" we should either a) Use all tools available within the rules of the game, b) know others will use them, even if we choose to abstain, and c) never allow the game actions to become personal. <.< perhaps I can find a good way to say "Play to win, but have fun whether you win or lose."

@Theodulus: Within that quote, is specifies "The Game knows no rules of Honor" not that "The game knows no rules." I'll consider switching the quotes around, but I find it is difficult to say all things in one quote. We must certianly understand the difference between legal and illegal moves, which is where "Where is the Line?" expresses that. It may seem like a bit of an Oxymoron, but we should all have a sense of "Honesty," even if our fights are not held by rules of "Honor."

@Joesixxpack: Thank you. I felt game mechanics were fairly covered by better people than myself, but I'd seen few posts on the mentality of gaming, and I find a poor, or "scrub" mentality aflicts too many good players.

@cart; Thanks, and nice quote. I'm not gonna even touch griefing... there's a reason I don't play on Open World PvP servers.

Guide will be updated and refined as I have time. in the mean time, thanks all!

 

@L-Randle: Thank you, and that's a nice quote. If I don't get to it first, maybe you can let me know who it's from. Might need to added it to my list of quotes!

!

PADME!!!! When she talking to Anakin about Obi-Wan's "gear gap". Attack of the Clones....

<------- I <3 Natalie Portman...

@UGLYMJR: No offense taken, I've grown to like being a geek. Most of my friends and loved ones are too. I'm glad Jadescythe was able to perhaps better sum up/explain the key points in this thread. I am thinking of expanding "Where is the Line?" to explain that there must be a disconnect from yourself and the game. As with "Know the True Enemy" we should either a) Use all tools available within the rules of the game, b) know others will use them, even if we choose to abstain, and c) never allow the game actions to become personal. <.< perhaps I can find a good way to say "Play to win, but have fun whether you win or lose."

Yeah... I use it pretty loosely but don't want anyone to take it the wrong way. When friends call me to go out and I would rather stay home and play SWTOR I say "Nah.... geeking it"... it's just a phrase I coined.

But I can agree with the concept... it just came off a little serious in the context. I don't even use cheat codes on single player games but you better believe that I will use every advantage in any game short of hacking or mods. People can call it camping... griefing... trolling... whatever.... I call it winning.

But yeah... that last line about sums up how I see it. If you're winning, but taking it so seriously that you're not having fun... what's the point?

 

 

<------- I <3 Natalie Portman...

Easily in my top 5.... so damn hot.

PADME!!!! When she talking to Anakin about Obi-Wan's "gear gap". Attack of the Clones....

 

 

<------- I <3 Natalie Portman...

Q.Q i've been out geeked.

Q.Q i've been out geeked.

Its ok... It happens...

We can still be forum friends.....lol...

@Theodulus: Within that quote, is specifies "The Game knows no rules of Honor" not that "The game knows no rules." I'll consider switching the quotes around, but I find it is difficult to say all things in one quote. We must certianly understand the difference between legal and illegal moves, which is where "Where is the Line?" expresses that. It may seem like a bit of an Oxymoron, but we should all have a sense of "Honesty," even if our fights are not held by rules of "Honor."

Fair enough but perhaps clarify that you deal with it in post/chapter 6. You can interpret the no honor part as it may be ok to cheat to win even though I assume most don't. Just nitpicking.

There is No Honor

 

I feel this post will be fairly short, but it is the toughest subject I personally faced. I apologize that my words will mirror closely with the text I've asked all to read, but Sirlin perhaps puts it best.

 

As the title states, there is no honor in PvP. In any game, there are legal moves and illegal moves. A legal move in an MMO can often walk a grey line, considering the buggy nature of such a beast. Simply put though, a legal move in PvP is any tool, ability, or action that the game allows you to make, that has not be explicitly ruled by the Dev's as a bug.

 

To elaborate:

 

1. Grouping up to 4 is a legal move. Game mechanics do not prohibit it.

2. Consumables are a legal move. Game mechanics do not prohibit it.

3. Gear is a legal move. Game mechanics do not prohibit it.

4. Running away from a fight is a legal move. Game Mechanics do not prohibit it.

5. etc...

 

Illegal moves will be covered in a future section.

 

The most crucial thing any player can take from this concept is that there are no "cheap moves." If the game allows, players will use it. Not using it is gimping yourself.

Oh noes, this is harassment!

LOL

/jk

Could not agree more.

Great post, PvP/mmo is a hobby for me. I don't get upset over losing in pugs or otherwise, there's always something to learn. First thing I learned in online PvP is that playing with random people can be fun but will never be as fun as grouping up with like minded players that like to squeeze every ounce of "advantage" possible out of what the game lets you do and of course I don't mean hacks/cheats.

Online pvp gaming has always been about competition and working your way up to try to compete with the top teams for most people. So I really don't get this new wave of players that want to turn it into some tic/tac/toe game (a game that takes no skill and ends in tie). The fun is making advancement and improvement in your play thru playing and learning what works. I will never get these people who use the term "fairness" in relation to PvP since they have all the options available to them that i do....Only difference is what THEY choose to do about it.

Great post, PvP/mmo is a hobby for me. I don't get upset over losing in pugs or otherwise, there's always something to learn. First thing I learned in online PvP is that playing with random people can be fun but will never be as fun as grouping up with like minded players that like to squeeze every ounce of "advantage" possible out of what the game lets you do and of course I don't mean hacks/cheats.

 

Online pvp gaming has always been about competition and working your way up to try to compete with the top teams for most people. So I really don't get this new wave of players that want to turn it into some tic/tac/toe game (a game that takes no skill and ends in tie). The fun is making advancement and improvement in your play thru playing and learning what works. I will never get these people who use the term "fairness" in relation to PvP since they have all the options available to them that i do....Only difference is what THEY choose to do about it.

I believe it' a fundemental flaw in their definition of MMO's and MMO-PvP.

I can see, how coming from a FPS or other pvp games that offer match making might cause them to believe fairness is based on the moment they encounter some one. Yet an MMO has history to each character. You are not nameless respawn #3 weilding the medic load out. Your character is built, fairness comes from the fact you have as many options as the other player, and your effort in taking them is reflected.

=P of course, that's not directed at you. I wonder some other thoughts on why people have strayed from MMO-PVP into Matchmaking-esque stuff.

This is a great way to motivate new PVP'ers to act as farm fodder for seasoned guilds looking for a constant supply of medals.

Uninspiring and slightly demoralizing.

This applies to Expertise whiners, Premade Whiners, guildless whiners, people who get mad and take losses personally, etc.

Sirlin's book is spot-on, and can be applied to ANY game. I think internet society is on an incredible downward spiral. I am surprised at the lack of flaming you have recieved for writing this.

This applies to Expertise whiners, Premade Whiners, guildless whiners, people who get mad and take losses personally, etc.

 

Sirlin's book is spot-on, and can be applied to ANY game. I think internet society is on an incredible downward spiral. I am surprised at the lack of flaming you have recieved for writing this.

Though I'm trying to be open and non-aggressive in these writings, I will allow myself one small joke: <.< I wonder if I haven't been flamed too badly yet because it's to much work for them to read it all.

@HauRya: I'm sorry the message did not appeal to you, and I had hoped it would atleast speak to all on some level. If you have suggestions I would gladly hear them. I believe if all the "Fodder" applied Sirlin (and some of my words) to themselves, they would cease to be "Fodder."