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Bring back self-heals


Jadirican

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In before Thok.

 

The raid tanks wanted to keep their spots, so the heal is gone. Others share your frustration, but the theorycrafters got what they wanted and will shout down anyone unhappy with the change.

 

Actually i got what i wanted. I feared they would nerf me by a lot, instead i got buffs.

 

I can understand if people hate it when the flair of self-healing is gone.

However i can't understand it, if people are claiming that these changes are a nerf, when that is not true.

 

I am not shouting down anyone, but if people are not bringing any arguments to prove points but instead try to insult and defame me, i will change the tone of my posts accordingly.

 

lol...running all this damage control has got to be wearing poor Thok out.

 

No it isn't. That would mean i would invest time in my posts. When people are not bringing any arguments to Support their Points, etc... it doesn't take long to respond. I would really like to discuss, but currently that is not possible for most of the threads :(.

Edited by THoK-Zeus
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I am not shouting down anyone, but if people are not bringing any arguments to prove points but instead try to insult and defame me, i will change the tone of my posts accordingly.

 

 

 

No it isn't. That would mean i would invest time in my posts. When people are not bringing any arguments to Support their Points, etc... it doesn't take long to respond. I would really like to discuss, but currently that is not possible for most of the threads :(.

 

The reason people are insulting you is because they present an argument and you act like it isn't even there. Try this argument. The devs stated in the Shadows answers that Shadow tanks were considerably better than the other tanks when not in the presence of spike damage, but considerably worse when they were getting spike damage. They then went on to say that they could not correct the spikiness without removing the self-heals.

 

(Typing on a phone now or I would link it)

 

Ergo, when they removed the self-heals they nerfed Shadows when spike damage isn't present right? I look forward to your strawman response to my question.

Edited by Master-Nala
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The reason people are insulting you is because they present an argument and you act like it isn't even there. Try this argument. The devs stated in the Shadows answers that Shadow tanks were considerably better than the other tanks when not in the presence of spike damage, but considerably worse when they were getting spike damage. They then went on to say that they could not correct the spikiness without removing the self-heals.

 

(Typing on a phone now or I would link it)

 

Ergo, when they removed the self-heals they nerfed Shadows when spike damage isn't present right? I look forward to your strawman response to my question.

 

I am never acting like an Argument is not there. I defuted every single one. Link me one i didn't.

 

What you don't understand is, that spike damage in pvp is a lot higher then in pve. Two dps deals more sustained damage then an operation boss. Not even mentioning their possible spike damage.

 

There's a reason dipstik calculated with the tripple spike damage for pvp (comparing to pve operations).

 

The only sections were it was a clear nerf were dailies.

For hm flashpoints and sm operations i am still not 100% sure, according to numbers it seems to be about the same. I did never say something different.

 

Your argument is just the same i always say, it supports my point of view.

Edited by THoK-Zeus
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I guess my issue is the fact that I don't want all the tanking trees to end up streamlined. Sure we get buffs, but that is very similar to the other tanks. Each class should be relatively unique in ability, rather than role.

 

This was brought up countless times over the last few months, but the class reps ignored it.

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I guess the other way to argue this is from the story plot line. As a shadow/consular, I am supposed to do some healing as part of the plot. If my shadow can't even heal himself with his force abilities (beyond the single heal ability) then it doesn't make any sense. Healing is part of the consular over-class and should, therefore, be part of each branch of the elite.
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The only sections were it was a clear nerf were dailies.

 

How is it a nerf for dailies? It feels like a buff to me. Between the passive armor buff and the free four stacks of Shadow Protection that we get when we attack from stealth, I take a lot less damage while out dallying. Sure, I can't self-heal, but it's not like self-heal ever healed me to full after taking trash damage. I also no longer have to bother with setting up a three-stack TkT in order to attempt to eek out some health. TkT has an opportunity cost: if you're channeling, you're not AoEing and AoE is the fastest way to get dailies done. Unless I'm fighting gold stars, dailies are now all AoE all the time. The damage I take is trivial if I can burn down the group I'm attacking before Shadow Protection drops.

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My shadow tank is in 72/78 gear with set bonus. Since the removal of TK heal I've run 3/5 DF HM, 4/5 DP HM and a 16 man TFB HM. Admittedly, I am running with good healers, but I didn't feel "squishy" on any of those bosses except for Raptus in DP (30k hits... yikes). I'm also finding myself less reliant on defensive cooldowns, providing I'm staying on top of my rotation and keeping the 4 stacks up as much as possible.

 

I don't know what the concern is, I would much rather prevent hp loss than have to try win back 2% hp. Compared to the other tank classes, I still feel like things hit me a little bit harder but with good use of cooldowns I can make up for it. And no, we are not some "little brother of the guardian tank"... the shadow tank is just a class of tank which needs a little more attention from the person playing it. It's easier to be a bad tank and get away with it on a guardian or vanguard than it is on a shadow.

 

In regards to pvp, I feel much much much more stable now than before. If I really need a self heal I'll stealth out, cc whoever I'm fighting if I need to then find a quiet spot and heal myself. Don't see the other tank classes doing that! ;p

 

Overall, I am very happy with the changes to shadow tanks, my only little niggling wish is that we had a *touch* more natural armour mitigation... and extra 2% more would be perfect in my opinion.

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Honestly I can't agree more about the self heals, I agree that they made the shadow unique, but though they got a buff, they also made it 10 times more difficult to achieve, especially with all the newest events that have a considerable amount of enemies with knockbacks, which makes the buff gained by telekinetic throw practically worthless, and hard to get. It's nice if you can get it, but having tried hard and for the most part failed, even though shadows have been my mains on both servers I'm on (just stating I have experience) I have trouble getting that buff. Honestly there is so much I can't do anymore because it feels like a nerf. My highest geared toon is a shadow tank, she used to be able to solo almost anything bounty contract week, now, she can barely do it at all. They made the shadow the same type of tank as the other two classes, yet with only having light armor, you may as well be a piece of paper going through a shredder. I honestly don't mind the new buff, I do mind at how short it lasts though, especially with how hard it is to get the 4 stacks. I've pretty much put my main to rest and no longer consider shadows as my favorite class because of this "Nuff" (Nerf-buff cause i feel like making a word lol). Can't say it enough, I'm not one to hate decisions Bioware makes, but this one I can't ask enough to bring back the self heals.
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I personally feel that the best part of the changes are that the playstyle is almost exactly the same. The rotation is same- the feel of the class is the same MINUS the rare occasion where I would get very unlucky chain of hits from bosses like corruptor zero and getting slam dunked by raptus. If other people don't feel the same I can't really say anything other than sorry you feel that way :(
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Actually i got what i wanted. I feared they would nerf me by a lot, instead i got buffs.

 

I can understand if people hate it when the flair of self-healing is gone.

However i can't understand it, if people are claiming that these changes are a nerf, when that is not true.

 

I am not shouting down anyone, but if people are not bringing any arguments to prove points but instead try to insult and defame me, i will change the tone of my posts accordingly.

 

 

 

No it isn't. That would mean i would invest time in my posts. When people are not bringing any arguments to Support their Points, etc... it doesn't take long to respond. I would really like to discuss, but currently that is not possible for most of the threads :(.

 

For pvp and world pvp it was a nerf. See where this game is once they completely disenfranchise the pvp community little nerf here little nerfs there. Pve players like to marginalize us and claim we are a small part of the game you are wrong completely wrong ,you guys come too our servers and try to change our culture we do not go to pve servers complaining about you guys and how your culture is, that example tells me you guys can't even strand your selves. Bw can depend on their algorithms to perpetuate the myth that pve is king in mmo's and should get first consideration in all decisions but they are not considering the psychology of copetetivness and the pvp player and what we bring to mmo's with out us all mmo's die. Or they can keep pumping out content 1000% more than they do now to keep pve'rs happy with out us , the pvp population is low maintenance just keep it fair and balanced as possible point us in a direction and let us play,thats it! BW knows this so I do not get why they want too make pve'ers their main focus and ignore our needs and wants. Bring back self heals as a passive choice in our tree and dump one of our many useless talents. So if you click new passive you no longer get the DR buff and instead we get our self heals back please listen to us BW.

Edited by Jiminison
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My shadow tank is in 72/78 gear with set bonus. Since the removal of TK heal I've run 3/5 DF HM, 4/5 DP HM and a 16 man TFB HM. Admittedly, I am running with good healers, but I didn't feel "squishy" on any of those bosses except for Raptus in DP (30k hits... yikes). I'm also finding myself less reliant on defensive cooldowns, providing I'm staying on top of my rotation and keeping the 4 stacks up as much as possible.

 

I don't know what the concern is, I would much rather prevent hp loss than have to try win back 2% hp. Compared to the other tank classes, I still feel like things hit me a little bit harder but with good use of cooldowns I can make up for it. And no, we are not some "little brother of the guardian tank"... the shadow tank is just a class of tank which needs a little more attention from the person playing it. It's easier to be a bad tank and get away with it on a guardian or vanguard than it is on a shadow.

 

In regards to pvp, I feel much much much more stable now than before. If I really need a self heal I'll stealth out, cc whoever I'm fighting if I need to then find a quiet spot and heal myself. Don't see the other tank classes doing that! ;p

 

Overall, I am very happy with the changes to shadow tanks, my only little niggling wish is that we had a *touch* more natural armour mitigation... and extra 2% more would be perfect in my opinion.

 

Because pvp isn't as predictable as pve due to the bad guy being another human it is not pve players complaining about it imo it is pvp players. So understanding that there is another type of player that plays swtor is the answer to your question. I am not happy with the changes at all and too see classes like pt having self heal abilities and my guardian being able too boost his life for a bit which is a self heal even if for a short time all I can do is just laugh and shake my head. I thought I would be playing this game for quite a while guess not.

Edited by Jiminison
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I wonder what the likelihood is now that self-heals might come back. I am worried that, like most companies, Bioware will support the change being implemented rather than acknowledging that the change may not have been as thought out as possible, and going back.

 

I still think the argument that taking heals away from an advanced consular class is contrary to what the spirit of that class is. Again, the fact that the consular storyline has the character HEAL others means that they should be proficient in healing.

 

Game mechanic-wise, fix the self-heals to make the class more robust at the higher levels. Take out the 2.5 second delay between activation, and have increase to % heal rather than damage mitigation as the new buff.

 

I would hate for SWTOR to go the way of SWG after the CU and NGE.

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This was brought up countless times over the last few months, but the class reps ignored it.

 

Considering who the class reps are, I can't say I'm surprised.

 

While the changes in 2.5 may have indeed made Shadow tanks stronger they have simoultaneously made them feel like any other tank out there. Self-heals were a big part of their identity. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Stealth got removed just like Tumult has.

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I personally feel that the best part of the changes are that the playstyle is almost exactly the same.

Almost doesn't count.

 

The playstyle cannot be the same if you have to stop and heal out of combat every other fight. I'm talking about regular daily quests and missions here, not operations.

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For pvp and world pvp it was a nerf. See where this game is once they completely disenfranchise the pvp community little nerf here little nerfs there. Pve players like to marginalize us and claim we are a small part of the game you are wrong completely wrong ,you guys come too our servers and try to change our culture we do not go to pve servers complaining about you guys and how your culture is, that example tells me you guys can't even strand your selves. Bw can depend on their algorithms to perpetuate the myth that pve is king in mmo's and should get first consideration in all decisions but they are not considering the psychology of copetetivness and the pvp player and what we bring to mmo's with out us all mmo's die. Or they can keep pumping out content 1000% more than they do now to keep pve'rs happy with out us , the pvp population is low maintenance just keep it fair and balanced as possible point us in a direction and let us play,thats it! BW knows this so I do not get why they want too make pve'ers their main focus and ignore our needs and wants. Bring back self heals as a passive choice in our tree and dump one of our many useless talents. So if you click new passive you no longer get the DR buff and instead we get our self heals back please listen to us BW.

 

Funny you say this. Most nerfs and class balance are due to PvP for any and every class. This one is one of the few with PvE in mind affecting PvP, and this changed was asked because of the previous big nerf shadow/sin tanks had in 2.0 (apparently, they were too powerful in PvP so people complained and BW listened to them)

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Funny you say this. Most nerfs and class balance are due to PvP for any and every class. This one is one of the few with PvE in mind affecting PvP, and this changed was asked because of the previous big nerf shadow/sin tanks had in 2.0 (apparently, they were too powerful in PvP so people complained and BW listened to them)

 

False. The big nerf to Shadow tanks took place because of their relative balance in PvE.

 

http://www.swtor.com/blog/class-changes-and-balance-game-update-1.3

Edited by Master-Nala
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False. The big nerf to Shadow tanks took place because of their relative balance in PvE.

 

http://www.swtor.com/blog/class-changes-and-balance-game-update-1.3

 

And you believe them because ? before 1.3 shadow was at best during pvp, A Lot pvp cry about shadow tank, they could easily take 2 person and won.

Pve ? mehh, they're nothing better than others.

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Now my jugg (61 mods) is better to play pvp/fp hms than shadow (65-67 pvp mods). When jugg will get set pvp bonuses she will have self healz like old shadow had, 100k per wz ( I see guardians easy have 80k selfheals).

 

So yes, please return self-heals back.

 

Overall full tank is useless now for pvp at least. Something like 23-21-2 or 31-11-4 works much better.

 

Full tank is not solo player any more, hybrids may do something having occasional heals.

 

P.S. You should also account that shields are 30% cap now in armor. 40% was always vital to do good job by shadow tank, at old time you could easy feel difference between 38 and 40%% in shield rate. Now it is like 32% with best armor.

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I am never acting like an Argument is not there. I defuted every single one. Link me one i didn't.

 

What you don't understand is, that spike damage in pvp is a lot higher then in pve. Two dps deals more sustained damage then an operation boss. Not even mentioning their possible spike damage.

 

There's a reason dipstik calculated with the tripple spike damage for pvp (comparing to pve operations).

 

The only sections were it was a clear nerf were dailies.

For hm flashpoints and sm operations i am still not 100% sure, according to numbers it seems to be about the same. I did never say something different.

 

Your argument is just the same i always say, it supports my point of view.

 

I understand that spike damage is higher in PVP, I just don't give a damn. I don't play PVP, and I don't want to see myself being crippled in PVE, which is what this change has resulted in. I've been running dailies and Heroics regularly, both before and after the patch, and if you think that there is not a clear and obvious difference in how the Shadow performs in those situations, you're full of bull.

 

I've typically been running with a partner DPS, and using one healer and one DPS companion for most of my fights. I've now been forced into both of us running healers, and I'm still walking out of half of the fights nearly dead. This is with the exact same gear setup as I had pre-patch.

 

Whatever idiot thinks that 4% damage reduction is at all comparable to the self heals, or that it comes close to pushing us up to any of the other tanking classes (none of which have had the survival problems that my Shadow now has) should be fired.

 

And this is assuming that you can get the 4%, but (spoiler alert) it doesn't work properly. I can't even count the number of times that I have run a full channel and walked out with only 3 stacks because it happens to just skip applying a new one sometimes. I have, in fact, counted at least 4 times that I've come out of a full channel with only 2 stacks (oh, and by the way, having to wait an extra second just to ensure that you're not going to cut off that final stack application screws with the rotation and effectiveness of the Shadow tank in any situation, PVE or PVP), and once that I've only gotten a single stack, because the ability just doesn't frelling work properly.

 

Solution: Harnessed Shadows at 3 stacks heals you when you cast Telekinetic Throw at a NON-PLAYER CHARACTER. Ta da. Problem solved, and the whiny PVP morons can stop ruining my class for PVE (or I could just tell you to suck it up and live with it, which is the response I get to any complaint I happen to make about the PVP system causing me grief).

 

The only sections were it was a clear nerf were dailies.

 

No, it's a clear nerf in any PVE content, whether it be dailies, Flashpoints, or Operations. Sure, in a Flashpoint, Operation, or Heroic, you have someone else backing you up and putting heals on you. So what? You still don't have near the self-survivability that you did before, and they are still going to have to pump out far more heals, fixing their rotation more and providing a larger drain on their resources.

 

But let's take what you said at face value (and ignore the obvious idiocy of anyone who something thinks that the game operates differently in a daily than it does in any other PVE situation). It's a nerf to dailies. Ok, that alone is enough reason to bring it back. Dailies are the single most commonly run PVE content in the game. If you aren't a PVPer, you are going to be running dailies. A lot. Congratulations, you just hosed us one of the most important gear grinds, time sinks, and overall gameplay features. The fun and engagement of the dailies is gone (which is why there are so many people ************ about it), because we're running around completely crippled, especially compared to what we used to be.

 

Bring back the self-heals, and if you really want to make the PVPers happy, make them PVE-only. PVP has its own unique systems already (Expertise, anyone?), so I don't see why there can't be PVE-only systems. Because they are obviously completely different gameplay systems at heart. But stop screwing Shadow tanks (who are tanks, designed to frelling survive fights, especially in PVE content), just because the PVPers are whining.

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I understand that spike damage is higher in PVP, I just don't give a damn. I don't play PVP, and I don't want to see myself being crippled in PVE, which is what this change has resulted in. I've been running dailies and Heroics regularly, both before and after the patch, and if you think that there is not a clear and obvious difference in how the Shadow performs in those situations, you're full of bull.

 

I've typically been running with a partner DPS, and using one healer and one DPS companion for most of my fights. I've now been forced into both of us running healers, and I'm still walking out of half of the fights nearly dead. This is with the exact same gear setup as I had pre-patch.

 

Whatever idiot thinks that 4% damage reduction is at all comparable to the self heals, or that it comes close to pushing us up to any of the other tanking classes (none of which have had the survival problems that my Shadow now has) should be fired.

 

And this is assuming that you can get the 4%, but (spoiler alert) it doesn't work properly. I can't even count the number of times that I have run a full channel and walked out with only 3 stacks because it happens to just skip applying a new one sometimes. I have, in fact, counted at least 4 times that I've come out of a full channel with only 2 stacks (oh, and by the way, having to wait an extra second just to ensure that you're not going to cut off that final stack application screws with the rotation and effectiveness of the Shadow tank in any situation, PVE or PVP), and once that I've only gotten a single stack, because the ability just doesn't frelling work properly.

 

Solution: Harnessed Shadows at 3 stacks heals you when you cast Telekinetic Throw at a NON-PLAYER CHARACTER. Ta da. Problem solved, and the whiny PVP morons can stop ruining my class for PVE (or I could just tell you to suck it up and live with it, which is the response I get to any complaint I happen to make about the PVP system causing me grief).

 

 

 

No, it's a clear nerf in any PVE content, whether it be dailies, Flashpoints, or Operations. Sure, in a Flashpoint, Operation, or Heroic, you have someone else backing you up and putting heals on you. So what? You still don't have near the self-survivability that you did before, and they are still going to have to pump out far more heals, fixing their rotation more and providing a larger drain on their resources.

 

But let's take what you said at face value (and ignore the obvious idiocy of anyone who something thinks that the game operates differently in a daily than it does in any other PVE situation). It's a nerf to dailies. Ok, that alone is enough reason to bring it back. Dailies are the single most commonly run PVE content in the game. If you aren't a PVPer, you are going to be running dailies. A lot. Congratulations, you just hosed us one of the most important gear grinds, time sinks, and overall gameplay features. The fun and engagement of the dailies is gone (which is why there are so many people ************ about it), because we're running around completely crippled, especially compared to what we used to be.

 

Bring back the self-heals, and if you really want to make the PVPers happy, make them PVE-only. PVP has its own unique systems already (Expertise, anyone?), so I don't see why there can't be PVE-only systems. Because they are obviously completely different gameplay systems at heart. But stop screwing Shadow tanks (who are tanks, designed to frelling survive fights, especially in PVE content), just because the PVPers are whining.

 

It's not a 4% damage reduction it's a 4% increase to armor which is far more valuable!

Alltogether the buffs gave assasssin an additional 12% damage reduction.

 

Dark Protection stacks are not given to you when the attack is resisted (6% Chance). This is a non-factor if you have a normal Rotation cause the stacks will be reapplied before they run out.

 

Self Healing is a static value you get, damage reduction depends on the incoming damage. If you think that you get the same damage from doing dailies then from a nim Operation, you are wrong.

 

It's 100% a buff for Operations, just look at your combat logs or ask your healers. A 12% damage reduction is better then the self heal in every normal Operation Content. For Flashpoints it's about equal.

 

Self Healing was simply unbalanced. It didn't heal enough in Operation but it healed way too much in dailys.

 

Assassin Tanks were way superior to all the other tank classes in the game for doing dailies. Tell me a non-healer class that was able to solo dailies with a dps companion without ever resting.

Edited by THoK-Zeus
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It's not a 4% damage reduction it's a 4% increase to armor which is far more valuable!

Alltogether the buffs gave assasssin an additional 12% damage reduction.

 

Dark Protection stacks are not given to you when the attack is resisted (6% Chance). This is a non-factor if you have a normal Rotation cause the stacks will be reapplied before they run out.

 

Self Healing is a static value you get, damage reduction depends on the incoming damage. If you think that you get the same damage from doing dailies then from a nim Operation, you are wrong.

 

It's 100% a buff for Operations, just look at your combat logs or ask your healers. A 12% damage reduction is better then the self heal in every normal Operation Content. For Flashpoints it's about equal.

 

Self Healing was simply unbalanced. It didn't heal enough in Operation but it healed way too much in dailys.

 

Assassin Tanks were way superior to all the other tank classes in the game for doing dailies. Tell me a non-healer class that was able to solo dailies with a dps companion without ever resting.

 

From the patch notes (and skill description):

 

•Three stacks of Harnessed Shadows no longer cause the Shadow to be healed when Telekinetic Throw deals damage. Instead, the skill grants Shadow Protection, which increases damage reduction by 1%. Shadow Protection stacks up to four times and lasts 12 seconds.

 

It says it's increased damage reduction, not increased armor.

 

Also, the rotation has already been massively skewed by the incredibly short duration of the buff. I used to be able to run constantly and never use Project unless Particle Acceleration popped up, but that luxury has been denied to me (as relying on Particle Acceleration virtually guarantees that you won't have it up constantly). So I'm already having to completely shift how I've played my class, and I'm still noticeably squishier than I was pre-patch.

 

Oh, and it being "resisted" does matter, since if either the first or last tick of the buff isn't applied, it will reset before the next one pops up.

 

Also, part of where I noticed this being a nerf was in communication from my healers after the patch. So my healers aren't of the opinion that I've gotten a "100% buff".

 

I loathe the change to the rotation. I don't mind the change to the self-heals, as long as we're kept in balance to other tanks (which I haven't really noticed, my Vanguard still seems to have more survivability than I do), but I utterly loathe the change from the simple elegance of the old rotation. I thought it flowed more smoothly and kept the fights more fun. The new shift to "keep up Shadow Protection at all costs or you will die" massively skews the rotation and locks down how we can behave a lot more, which in turn makes the class a lot less fun to play.

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