_Darkstar Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Let me start by saying I hate PvP - So I play on a PvE server to avoid it. I am also not flagged for PvP. So why on earth can I accidentally catch a wandering enemy player in my AoE and automatically get set into PvP mode? Not only do I not want this (Hence finding a PvE server!) but it takes me by surprise and I am dead before I even realise what is going on! Then I have to wait 5 minutes for the flag to wear off, during which time I can't go and quest because I know there are invisible enemy players around? How did this feature make it live? Even worse I hear is that if a PvP flagged friendly walks into your heal patch then you are flagged for PvP automatically! This is absurd and needs changing quickly because as I am getting higher in level I am seeing more and more PvP flagged players and I do not want to be restricted to single target attacks for fear of accidentally hitting someone. I can forgive the bugs but this is going to ruin the game for me if it isn't changed soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dev Post AmberGreen Posted February 16, 2012 Dev Post Share Posted February 16, 2012 Hi everyone. Thank you all for your patience and reports. We wanted to post in this thread to let you know that we have made this change with patch 1.1.4, which is now live on Public Test Server! You can read the patch notes here. o/''\o Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sejia Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Because the previous thread has exceeded our normal threshold for thread length, we've started this new thread for the community to discuss the topic of indirect targeting abilities flagging players for PvP. As always, we ask that the community keep the following things in mind when responding: No insults, name calling, or personal attacks Please stay on topic. Please express your opinion and thoughts in a constructive, respectful manner. If someone violates the Rules of Conduct, please flag it instead of replying to it. Keep in mind that everyone has different viewpoints. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they're trolling. If you believe someone is trolling, please use the Flag function to report their post. Thank you and enjoy the discussion! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightkrawlur Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Let me start by saying I hate PvP - So I play on a PvE server to avoid it. I am also not flagged for PvP. So why on earth can I accidentally catch a wandering enemy player in my AoE and automatically get set into PvP mode? Not only do I not want this (Hence finding a PvE server!) but it takes me by surprise and I am dead before I even realise what is going on! Then I have to wait 5 minutes for the flag to wear off, during which time I can't go and quest because I know there are invisible enemy players around? How did this feature make it live? Even worse I hear is that if a PvP flagged friendly walks into your heal patch then you are flagged for PvP automatically! This is absurd and needs changing quickly because as I am getting higher in level I am seeing more and more PvP flagged players and I do not want to be restricted to single target attacks for fear of accidentally hitting someone. I can forgive the bugs but this is going to ruin the game for me if it isn't changed soon. Sadly most MMO developers add some sort of system like this. They know they can't provide PvE content as fast as players can chew threw it, so even on PvE servers they leave the option to PvP when you run out of content. So you end up two types of PvP players on a PvE servers. 1) PvE players that have run out of content or just become bored with the content. So they try their hand at PvP for something to do. These players are usually decent people and respectful of others. They are the type of players that won't attack someone 10+ levels lower than them and will not engage someone who is half dead and in the middle of fighting a MOB. 2) Griefers that can't hack it on a PvP server. The griefers love the flagging system and they are the first ones to defend the current way things work. They are borderline sociopaths that thrive on un-fair fights. They don't want a fair fight, they want a hand full of PvE mobs helping, they want to surprise you when you least expect it. Both types of players exist in every game out there but still developers seem to put little or no thought into the impact of griefers. I used to buff people, but I don't anymore. I used to heal random people, but I don't anymore. I've been forced to check each group member when I join a group to ensure they are not set for PvP, if they are I leave the group. I've turned on name plates so I can identify opposing faction members, if I see them I disengage from combat and go do something else to avoid them. And yet still I sometimes get flagged for PvP, which almost always ends the same way. A group of 2 or more opposing faction players slaughtering me while I'm in combat with mobs doing quests. Even after they get their jollies beating up someone who CANNOT win the fight, I have to spend time out of my day waiting to get un-flagged. Because not even death makes it go away. I am a PvE player, I play on a PvE server. I do not want to PvP, ever. I have been killed by opposing players and yet I have NEVER entered a PvP area or flagged myself for PvP in the game. The current system is not totally consensual as advertised. Although their system was very buggy at the start, the Rift system seemed to take care of this. Why can't I just get an option I can toggle for "Never flag me for PvP" and just don't let me heal/damage anyone that is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VarnieTsk Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Sadly most MMO developers add some sort of system like this. They know they can't provide PvE content as fast as players can chew threw it, so even on PvE servers they leave the option to PvP when you run out of content. So you end up two types of PvP players on a PvE servers. 1) PvE players that have run out of content or just become bored with the content. So they try their hand at PvP for something to do. These players are usually decent people and respectful of others. They are the type of players that won't attack someone 10+ levels lower than them and will not engage someone who is half dead and in the middle of fighting a MOB. 2) Griefers that can't hack it on a PvP server. The griefers love the flagging system and they are the first ones to defend the current way things work. They are borderline sociopaths that thrive on un-fair fights. They don't want a fair fight, they want a hand full of PvE mobs helping, they want to surprise you when you least expect it. Both types of players exist in every game out there but still developers seem to put little or no thought into the impact of griefers. I used to buff people, but I don't anymore. I used to heal random people, but I don't anymore. I've been forced to check each group member when I join a group to ensure they are not set for PvP, if they are I leave the group. I've turned on name plates so I can identify opposing faction members, if I see them I disengage from combat and go do something else to avoid them. And yet still I sometimes get flagged for PvP, which almost always ends the same way. A group of 2 or more opposing faction players slaughtering me while I'm in combat with mobs doing quests. Even after they get their jollies beating up someone who CANNOT win the fight, I have to spend time out of my day waiting to get un-flagged. Because not even death makes it go away. I am a PvE player, I play on a PvE server. I do not want to PvP, ever. I have been killed by opposing players and yet I have NEVER entered a PvP area or flagged myself for PvP in the game. The current system is not totally consensual as advertised. Although their system was very buggy at the start, the Rift system seemed to take care of this. Why can't I just get an option I can toggle for "Never flag me for PvP" and just don't let me heal/damage anyone that is? My sentiments, exactly! Especially the part I highlighted yellow. I'm happy that they're changing the AoE flagging, that was the most abused, but would love to see it taken that little step further to address the issue of griefers tagging a mob in a group you're fighting & flagging you. I want to be able to guarantee that I'll *never* get flagged......ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rochand Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Now if player A and player B are both fighting each other, if player C casts an AoE heal (let's say Revivification) he WILL NOT get flagged if he manages to cast it on friendly targets who are not flagged. Congraulations!!!! You have now whined about one thing and as a result now you are allowing flagged pvpers to be healed by non-flagged players. What do you do? You can't kill the healer because if he is smart, he can continue to AoE heal without getting flagged if he casts it carefully enough. Read what you wrote. Based on this Using abilities with indirect targeting (such as area of effect abilities) will no longer cause players to be flagged for PvP if a PvP-flagged player from the opposing faction is within the ability’s range, and the ability will have no effect on the PvP-flagged player. Player A = healer Player B = damage dealer Scenario A: Player A = not flagged Player B = not flagged Both are same faction Player A does a targeted heal on Player B = Player A not flagged + Player B not flagged and healed Player A does AOE heal with Player B in group = Player A not flagged + Player B not flagged and healed Scenario B: Player A = not flagged Player B = flagged Both are same faction Player A does a targeted heal on Player B = Player A flagged + Player B flagged and healed Player A does AOE heal with Player B in group = Player A flagged and Player B flagged and healed Scenario C: Player A = not flagged (Republic) Player B = flagged (Empire) Player A does a targeted attack on Player B = Player A flagged + Player B flagged and damaged Player A does an AOE attack while not having anything or a mob in target while Player B is within AOE area = Player A not flagged + Player B flagged and unharmed What kind of exploit do you see??? It's normal game mechanics on PvE servers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gurugeorge Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) I don't understand why this is even an issue. Surely it's clear that people who choose a PvE server do not want PvP in any way, shape or form unless it's strictly consensual? Even as someone who enjoys open world PvP and wouldn't dream of rolling on a PvE server, I absolutely respect that decision. And as an overall fan of the game, this aspect of it mystifies me. I thought abusable mechanics were the first things devs tried to avoid? Edited February 17, 2012 by gurugeorge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrBrydon Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Sadly most MMO developers add some sort of system like this. They know they can't provide PvE content as fast as players can chew threw it, so even on PvE servers they leave the option to PvP when you run out of content. So you end up two types of PvP players on a PvE servers. 1) PvE players that have run out of content or just become bored with the content. So they try their hand at PvP for something to do. These players are usually decent people and respectful of others. They are the type of players that won't attack someone 10+ levels lower than them and will not engage someone who is half dead and in the middle of fighting a MOB. 2) Griefers that can't hack it on a PvP server. The griefers love the flagging system and they are the first ones to defend the current way things work. They are borderline sociopaths that thrive on un-fair fights. They don't want a fair fight, they want a hand full of PvE mobs helping, they want to surprise you when you least expect it. Both types of players exist in every game out there but still developers seem to put little or no thought into the impact of griefers. I used to buff people, but I don't anymore. I used to heal random people, but I don't anymore. I've been forced to check each group member when I join a group to ensure they are not set for PvP, if they are I leave the group. I've turned on name plates so I can identify opposing faction members, if I see them I disengage from combat and go do something else to avoid them. And yet still I sometimes get flagged for PvP, which almost always ends the same way. A group of 2 or more opposing faction players slaughtering me while I'm in combat with mobs doing quests. Even after they get their jollies beating up someone who CANNOT win the fight, I have to spend time out of my day waiting to get un-flagged. Because not even death makes it go away. I am a PvE player, I play on a PvE server. I do not want to PvP, ever. I have been killed by opposing players and yet I have NEVER entered a PvP area or flagged myself for PvP in the game. The current system is not totally consensual as advertised. Although their system was very buggy at the start, the Rift system seemed to take care of this. Why can't I just get an option I can toggle for "Never flag me for PvP" and just don't let me heal/damage anyone that is? Hmm. Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter. This is pretty much exactly how I feel. Glad BW is fixing this. Anytime there is a game feature which allows griefing, it should be changed. Endgame shouldn't be ruining other people's game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CactusBrawler Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) It's getting fixed next patch. Isn't it? Edited February 17, 2012 by CactusBrawler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HELhikari Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 It's getting fixed next patch. Isn't it? Yes. But that doesn't stop people going on about it for some reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferroz Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) Sadly most MMO developers add some sort of system like this. They know they can't provide PvE content as fast as players can chew threw it, so even on PvE servers they leave the option to PvP when you run out of content. So you end up two types of PvP players on a PvE servers. 1) PvE players that have run out of content or just become bored with the content. So they try their hand at PvP for something to do. These players are usually decent people and respectful of others. They are the type of players that won't attack someone 10+ levels lower than them and will not engage someone who is half dead and in the middle of fighting a MOB. 2) Griefers that can't hack it on a PvP server. The griefers love the flagging system and they are the first ones to defend the current way things work. They are borderline sociopaths that thrive on un-fair fights. They don't want a fair fight, they want a hand full of PvE mobs helping, they want to surprise you when you least expect it.False dilemma fallacy 3) Players who like both PvE and PvP, but prefer consensual only PvP; these people don't limit themselves to only pvping when they're bored of pve. They may even prefer pvp to pve. So, in wow, people who primarily play for battlegrounds or arenas but play on pve servers would fall into this category. 4) Players that may like both PvE and PvP and are in fact, in favor of FFA always flagged pvp like you get on pvp servers, and are are only playing on a pve server in order to play with friends, but who don't necessarily grief. Some of them will keep the "red is dead" philosophy; some will totally avoid taking advantage of people who are low level of combat; some will be somewhat sporting about it* *Say, for example, the guy in rift who would walk up to a lowbie and /say "Say uncle" ... if the lowbie did so, he'd leave them alone; if not, he'd kill them. Edited February 17, 2012 by ferroz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnhughthom Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Actually, it only mentions becoming flagged when a player from the opposing faction is caught in one of your aoes. The only times I've been flagged for pvp are from buffing my faction's players when they were flagged for pvp. I suppose that is the players fault as you can see on their portratit they are pvp flagged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrcaptainpants Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Nicely done, Bioware. Thank you for listening and making this change to prevent griefing. It is much appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kourage Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Actually, it only mentions becoming flagged when a player from the opposing faction is caught in one of your aoes. The only times I've been flagged for pvp are from buffing my faction's players when they were flagged for pvp. I suppose that is the players fault as you can see on their portratit they are pvp flagged. Yep, your fault entirely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shama Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 In most games: If Player B uses an AoE attack that hits both PvE mobs and PvP (Player A) mobs, he will be flagged for combat. Apparently BioWare doesn't like this: But let me be very clear. In WoW this is how it works. You use AoE around flagged enemies? You get flagged. Most people understand this. It's understood that you need to be careful around enemies who "taunt" you into attacking them by hoping you make a mistake with AoE abilities. With respect, you are wrong. Your understanding of how it happens in WoW is flawed. If you, as a non-flagged player were to directly attack the mob with something that caused an AoE effect then any PvPers in the blast range would take no damage. If though you were to directly attack the PvP player with something that did AoE you'd be flagged. Now under the developer response above; you'll see new exploits arising thanks to your whining. Now if player A and player B are both fighting each other, if player C casts an AoE heal (let's say Revivification) he WILL NOT get flagged if he manages to cast it on friendly targets who are not flagged. Congraulations!!!! You have now whined about one thing and as a result now you are allowing flagged pvpers to be healed by non-flagged players. What do you do? You can't kill the healer because if he is smart, he can continue to AoE heal without getting flagged if he casts it carefully enough. Please, learn to read. The dev response made no mention of AoE healing. No-one who has posted in this thread highlighting the problem with non-consensual PvP has EVER stated that they want the situation where a non-PvPer can help a PvPer. What has been asked for is simply the removing of auto-flagging in this situation ... so that you, as the non-PvPer are given a message that your heal/res/damage/buff/debuff failed because you are not flagged for PvP. This message can be given in exactly the same way that the various other 'effect failed' messages are given ... such as the one if you try to perform scoundrel back-blast when you are not behind the target, or the Jedi Knight parry when you haven't made a block. Honestly it should boil down to this: If you see someone flagged and you don't want to fight, don't use AoE abilities. Alas my faith in BioWare is decreasing everyday by catering to these people who don't want to be held accountable for their inability to pay attention to their surroundings. Again, if you'd even read a 1/4 of this thread you'd see that what you are saying is nonsense and already been addressed. Just for you though, because I'm feeling generous and educational, I'll repeat it yet again ... If you can't see someone flagged, because they are stealth, then what you are asking for is for people to just never use AoE abilities if they don't want to PvP. This isn't an acceptable answer on a PvE server. By far the simplest, and widely adopted in other MMO games, mechanism is to simply not allow PvE players to have an effect on PvP players. The PvE player should be given a notification on why they can't affect the player they tried to, so they can then choose to flag themselves for PvP - or ignore it and leave the PvP player to their game. And yes, NPC's *should* be flagged for PvP when attacked by a PvP player just so that PvE players can't interfere with that mob (i.e. healing it to cause the PvP problems) BUT at the point that it is flagged for PvP it should lose all aggro on everyone apart from the player that caused it to flag. This would solve the other exploit mentioned in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shuno Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 How often do you get enemy players loitering around next to you anyway? I can only think of a single occasion (Tatooine in the Czerka bunker place) where this could have happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reldun Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 How often do you get enemy players loitering around next to you anyway? I can only think of a single occasion (Tatooine in the Czerka bunker place) where this could have happened. It's een happening quite a bit. Count yourself lucky if it hasn't happenend to you all that much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitewolfe Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 How often do you get enemy players loitering around next to you anyway? I can only think of a single occasion (Tatooine in the Czerka bunker place) where this could have happened. Happens a lot on the ilum pve side for daily quest. After 5 pr 6 times aday i trained myself to never aoe and to turn pets aoe off! Yes Ilum has a pve side with pve dailies. Now i am thrilled ill be able to aoe again while i do my pve quest! Oh and i did find out that you can be flagged with out ever casting a heal or buf. On my tank i had guard on a player and they flagged after i had guard on them and it flagged me. BW needs to look into making all effects drop fro ma player when they choose to pvp flag. The flagging was not my choice they over rode my choice by flagging themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krinaman Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 How often do you get enemy players loitering around next to you anyway? I can only think of a single occasion (Tatooine in the Czerka bunker place) where this could have happened. High levels do it intentionally to gank low levels. Therefore, they go to areas completely outside of their quest areas just to find players to gank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shama Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 How often do you get enemy players loitering around next to you anyway? I can only think of a single occasion (Tatooine in the Czerka bunker place) where this could have happened. I know the thread is very long, but if you read the first version of this thread you'll see it has happened to quite a few people. At the time this was first reported there was obviously a group of players who enjoyed exploiting it and causing grief to PvE players. There are a number of 'early' planets, where both both Imps and Reps quest side by side. All you need to do to exploit this as a high level griefer is to go into stealth and hang around mobs being attacked by a lower level PvEer ... sooner or later they will use an AoE and unintentially flag themselves by hitting you with the splash damage. Then you can jump on them, kill them with ease while they are wondering *** happened, and laugh your griefer cackle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shama Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 I know the thread is very long, but if you read the first version of this thread you'll see it has happened to quite a few people. At the time this was first reported there was obviously a group of players who enjoyed exploiting it and causing grief to PvE players. There are a number of 'early' planets, where both both Imps and Reps quest side by side. All you need to do to exploit this as a high level griefer is to go into stealth and hang around mobs being attacked by a lower level PvEer ... sooner or later they will use an AoE and unintentially flag themselves by hitting you with the splash damage. Then you can jump on them, kill them with ease while they are wondering *** happened, and laugh your griefer cackle How interesting ... apparently double-yoo, tee, eff is a censorable swearword! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maidel Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Some of them will keep the "red is dead" philosophy; some will totally avoid taking advantage of people who are low level of combat; some will be somewhat sporting about it* *Say, for example, the guy in rift who would walk up to a lowbie and /say "Say uncle" ... if the lowbie did so, he'd leave them alone; if not, he'd kill them. I'm sorry, that's just griefing people. How is that remotely 'sporting'. If you don't know or don't understand you die and are humiliated. It's like a playground bully who walks up and demands you give him your lunch money or he would beat you up. At least if he beat you up and TOOK your money you wouldn't have been humiliated first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferroz Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 (edited) I'm sorry, that's just griefing people. How is that remotely 'sporting'.He didn't kill lowbies that roleplayed with him (there was more to it than just "say uncle" but I don't remember the story well enough to go into any more detail; that's just what sticks out in my mind). Otherwise he went with the "red is dead" philosophy. personally, I agree that's on the far end of "sporting" but it's still "somewhat sporting" and certainly doesn't fall into that guy's category 2 (as I say below) If you don't know or don't understand you die and are humiliated. It's like a playground bully who walks up and demands you give him your lunch money or he would beat you up. At least if he beat you up and TOOK your money you wouldn't have been humiliated first.since that particular example was from a guy on a pvp-rp server, and he was rping (it made a bit more sense in it's full context but I don't remember it well enough to post all of it), I'd say it's not griefing; as I recall, the guy who posted about it on the forums was one of the lowbies that he ran into. Even if you are convinced it's griefing, he's not one of the people who fall into that guy's category #2, since he was able to hack it on a pvp server just fine, wasn't someone who was taking advantage of the flagging system, wasn't sociopathic (seriously, that's one of the most misused terms on the internet), didn't thrive on unfair fights, was in zone looking for fair fights and the opposite faction zone pve achievements, didn't use pve mobs to help him, and wasn't surprising the folks in any way... Edited February 18, 2012 by ferroz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VorpalK Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Happens a lot on the ilum pve side for daily quest. After 5 pr 6 times aday i trained myself to never aoe and to turn pets aoe off! Yes Ilum has a pve side with pve dailies. Now i am thrilled ill be able to aoe again while i do my pve quest! Oh and i did find out that you can be flagged with out ever casting a heal or buf. On my tank i had guard on a player and they flagged after i had guard on them and it flagged me. BW needs to look into making all effects drop fro ma player when they choose to pvp flag. The flagging was not my choice they over rode my choice by flagging themselves. Yet another reason I don't PUG. If someone did this, I'd boot them from party immediately and recall to fleet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeuseason Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Yes I agree, I don't have a big problem with this but the PvP flag filters are way off kilter. Def needs a fix! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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