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The problem with Guardian is...


-Dashel-

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Noone knows how to play them!

 

Honestly, I have to count myself as one of the more successful guardians here, because all this forum seems to be is complaints about how weak they are. I'm not a regular or avid MMO player, I'm only lvl 36 and consistently (and I mean 90% of the time) come first or second in both damage and guarding, every single match.

 

I have a theory as to why - so many people have been playing WoW for so long, they think this game is/should be the same. If I see people compare guardians to Arms/Prot warrior one more time, I may just light someone on fire.

 

Take this post I picked out from the forums from an mmarsh - (sorry to pick on you)

 

I like my Guardian, but I am tired of being last in about everything when it comes to PVP. And its not a question of skill, I am not a Pro, but I can hold my own.

 

The Guardian/Jugger is at terrible disadvantage in PVP. Some of our abilities are useless in PVP (like Master Strike) we have no CC until far too late, the DPS is terrible, we cant heal ourselves, (unlike more powerful classes that can), and we don't have enough useful interrupts we means we are constantly CC'ed. Our better abilities (sunder, blade barrier) have long cooldowns forcing us to rely on spamming vastly inferior ones, it takes a long time to generate focus.

 

One of the best defensive abilities for Jedi (REBUKE) is a Sentinel skill, I don't understand why as Defense is supposed to be the Guardians job. The ONLY advantage we have over the Sentinel is the fact we can carry Heavy Armor (which also sucks because the appears to be a shortage of armored robes we saw on the ads)

 

 

PVE is fine, but we just seem to suck at everything in PVP except for the flag carrier in Huttball. The entire class is in serious need of a revision (not just a buff) but espicially the Guardian/Juggernault

 

I just stated an Inquisitor and I was just shocked at all the things that class gets even at very low level.

 

I tested both the Guardian and a low level Sentinel, and aside from the Sentinel being alittle more squishy (not by much) the Sentinel was Superior.

 

 

Wow where to start - how about the most obvious mistake "Some of our abilities are useless in PVP (like Master Strike)"

 

Master strike is just about my MOST used skill in PVP, I use it EVERY time its off cooldown, and it's REMARKABLY easy to pull off, at least the first two hits, and very often all three. The damage this puts out is amazing. Generally, 1v1 if I get off all three hits, I already know I've won the fight.

 

"the DPS is terrible" - no its not, focus and vigi guardian dps is better then sentinel or very close, depending on how much attention you are paying.

 

Next - "we have no CC until far too late" Not sure what you mean - if you mean late as in class developement, then yes, everyone knows guardians have problems before lvl 30. Post lvl 30, we have more on demand, reliable CC then any other class - it's even more ridiculously good for defense specs. Stasis is AMAZING - it activates quickly, which means not only does it interupt, but can be use for fun things, like stoping sith warriors in mid air when they leap, depriving them of opening focus. Not to mention hilt strike and force push.

 

"we are constantly CC'ed" - its true, we only have Resolute, its on a longish cooldown. But honestly, I survive 1v1 cc easy, 2v1 can be survived by activating blader barrier, and 3v1 i dont expect to survive long anyway unless tank spec. This is fine.

 

"Our better abilities (sunder, blade barrier) have long cooldowns forcing us to rely on spamming vastly inferior ones"

 

Dont agree that those are our better abilities. Sunder/leap/blade throw/stasis is all the focus gen u need, strike isnt on my hotbar, neither is slash. important abilites are force sweep for focus (AMAZING OMG LOVE IT), overhead slash/plasma brand for vigi and hilt strike/guardian slash for tank.

 

"it takes a long time to generate focus." - No it doesnt. Guardian abilites are very cheap. Use combat focus more, i am guilty of neglecting it as well. Even without it, I rarely run out of focus. Vigi is more focus hungry then the focus tree fyi.

 

"(REBUKE) is a Sentinel skill, I don't understand why as Defense is supposed to be the Guardians job"

 

One skill does not make a class. Guardians tank very well in pvp, we have more more gimmicks then sentinels who have rebuke. Whats more, soresu can be fit into ANY guardian build (very well idd with focus) for very little talent points, as all the essential stuff is bottom tree 10. Even without soresu, guardians have enuff survivability in dps spec...except maybe focus, focus is more of an all-in/all-out.

 

I have not played sentinel, so I cant comment on thier superiority, all I know is I find sith marauders very very easy to kill in PVP. Sorcs are harder as they do way too much internal/ele dmg which guardians seem poor to defend. Ranged classes seem to have no chance against me.

 

Seriously, your comment that guardians need re-tooling says to me you are losing and you want to win, rather then that you've looked at the class and came to a considered conclusion. If you want to discuss class balance, never discuss your own experiences - look at leaderboard after pvp matchs and see who is consistently on top. I've found it fairly even, mostly leaning toward Jedi type melees. Other servers mileage may vary.

 

 

I do plan to write a guardian guide - but would be arrogant to do so before I hit 50. So far I've had most fun and success with focus individually. But as a tank I win more games as the amount they contribute to other players is redonkulously good. if you are a guardian in ANY spec, you should be spamming challenging call every time its off cooldown. I cry for how many guardians I see with zero guarding points. It costs u nothing and helps a lot.

 

Rant over. Sorry for text critting! I'm at work, and its a slow day.

 

Abuse welcome.

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I detect sarcasm as I didn't actually give any advice on how to play - Just that a class doesn't need rebalancing because one person doesn't know how it works.

 

Bioware knows what needs balancing, as they likely track battleground statistics, or at least Blizzard did, so I assume bioware does too.

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I totally agree with your post. I absolutely love my guardian and would never trade it for a sentinel! I find that I can deal great dmg in heroics and flashpoints. In the lower levels, where I am right now (29) I can also tank them even though I am specced in Vigi.

 

As far as pvp, I usually come in top 3 in dmg and top or second in protection. I don't understand why most of the guardians don't use guard! I always have my guard up and taunt every time I can remember.

Edited by sonny
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Another person who thinks they know everything about a class they havn't even gotten to max level yet. Guardian is weak right now compared to other classes. The other tanks do the job better. The other dps do the job better. Practically everyone else, except maybe Sentinels, solo quest better.
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<<

If you want to discuss class balance, never discuss your own experiences - look at leaderboard after pvp matchs and see who is consistently on top. I've found it fairly even, mostly leaning toward Jedi type melees. Other servers mileage may vary.

>>

 

From what I've seen, and I've looked, JKs and SWs are usually in the bottom half of damage done but the top half of damage taken (I scroll through - sometimes a healer is competitive there but usually I'm #1 followed by other JK/SWs). I've seen lots of matches where, out of two teams, 3 of the 6 JKSWs are in the bottom 5 for damage and the rest are in the middle. I'll try to keep track for a few dozen matches and provide hard numbers in a few days. There's occasionally a JKSW at the top, I did it at least once two nights ago, but it's actually very rare.

 

JKSWs and especially guardians, lower level (I'm 36 w/~35 valor levels), are dogmeat in warzones. Higher level we're still CC fodder (how are you ok 1v1 vs a sniper, btw)? Not sure about 50 but I know that any lvl 50s have options to get severe advantages vs non-50s. Note that I play on a server where Empire is winning most matches - I'm often nearly alone going for some objectives and get stuck fighting 3+v1 a lot (which is how I get #1 for damage taken).

 

I've played every class in Wow and more than a couple warriors (and paladins and dks) but never specc'd prot; I hated prot even when it wasn't gimped.

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There is no reliable metric to judge class balance so why anyone is even complaining is beyond me.

 

PvP leaderboards? Do you know what the highest damage normally means? It means that the top people are the ones spreading around small damage to a lot of people that generally means little in the outcome as it's being mitigated/healed through. Operatives and Scoundrels right now are utterly amazing at killing people, but they are terrible at padding the boards. Are they gimp? Not in the least.

 

As far as PvE goes no one knows anything other than "well...it FEELS good/bad/ugly".

 

 

I personally have a 30+ of 3 classes. Sniper/Assassin/JG. The Assassin and JG are about the same in almost everything with the assassin getting the edge in ease of leveling due to stealth. Damage is about the same and tanking is about the same with the edge going to the JG for ease of use due to not having to spam a defensive ability every 12 seconds or get your face melted off. The sniper does "feel" more effective at leveling, but only due to the fact that things are generally dead before they get to me. Companion dies more than Assassin/JG companion though.

 

This is my anecdotal evidence. No I'm not 50. No it probably isn't much different at 50.

 

Yes there is probably some discrepancies, but who cares at this point? It's nothing major and all content is playable regardless of comps. Give it time for BW to work out the kinks of all classes and stop crying about being less effective than the other guy because you honestly can't know that right now.

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I detect sarcasm as I didn't actually give any advice on how to play - Just that a class doesn't need rebalancing because one person doesn't know how it works.

 

Bioware knows what needs balancing, as they likely track battleground statistics, or at least Blizzard did, so I assume bioware does too.

 

No Sarcasm intended. I agree with you 100%. I think what it comes down to with most is that people have a mind set on past MMO's, i.e. WoW and expect it to be the same. One that comes to mind and I apologize if I'm incorrect, but with the Sunder Ability. I know in WoW it's a threat generator and from what I can tell here it's not and most knights I come across don't use it because they think it'll generate threat.

 

Honestly, I'm happy with the numerous skills and have had no issues playing the Guardian.

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Well I don't know how anyone says Jedi guardian sucks at warzone pvp to be honest. If he or she makes use of their tools and practices a little team work it's not hard to top the charts in medals. Even pre 30 I can literally spam freezing force on anyone trying to get outta my reach since I'm defense spec and it cost me 0 focus too use it.
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The medals (and the objective points) don't give me any sort of warm tingly feeling. As a guardian (or any tank class) I can get 3 medals for guarding anyone that happens to get attacked. I can get a couple medals for sitting on a base without doing any damage or healing. And I can cap 3 flags in Hutball or plant 3 door bombs and disarm two more in Voidstar without getting any medals or objective points. The MVP system is nice but players don't have much visibility to who to vote for unless they happen to be where the real action is and are checking names (and many, including me, don't always check names).

 

What does give me a warm tingly feeling? "To crush my enemies, see them driven before me and to hear the lamentation of their women."

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There is no reliable metric to judge class balance so why anyone is even complaining is beyond me.

 

PvP leaderboards? Do you know what the highest damage normally means? It means that the top people are the ones spreading around small damage to a lot of people that generally means little in the outcome as it's being mitigated/healed through. Operatives and Scoundrels right now are utterly amazing at killing people, but they are terrible at padding the boards. Are they gimp? Not in the least.

 

As far as PvE goes no one knows anything other than "well...it FEELS good/bad/ugly".

 

 

I personally have a 30+ of 3 classes. Sniper/Assassin/JG. The Assassin and JG are about the same in almost everything with the assassin getting the edge in ease of leveling due to stealth. Damage is about the same and tanking is about the same with the edge going to the JG for ease of use due to not having to spam a defensive ability every 12 seconds or get your face melted off. The sniper does "feel" more effective at leveling, but only due to the fact that things are generally dead before they get to me. Companion dies more than Assassin/JG companion though.

 

This is my anecdotal evidence. No I'm not 50. No it probably isn't much different at 50.

 

Yes there is probably some discrepancies, but who cares at this point? It's nothing major and all content is playable regardless of comps. Give it time for BW to work out the kinks of all classes and stop crying about being less effective than the other guy because you honestly can't know that right now.

 

To you I give high fives, and a firm handshake. Agreed. Also, agreed with the OP.

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scoreboards in PvP - JK/SW are cannon fodder

people personal experience - at lvl 28 till 35 JK/SW are ridiculously hard to level solo, compared to other classes

 

some brilliant individuals on forums - WAIT FOLKS YOU ARE JUST BAD!!!! LUL!

 

amazing, dude, i applause you personally. 10 years of MMOing, over 20 years of gaming overall, cybersport level in Starcraft (my teamie and 2vs2 partner won WCG prelimenary russia 2002), hardcore raiding in WoW (top 3 russian guild), glad title and i am 100 percent positive that JK/SW are poorly designed and overall weak compared to other classes (my 14 lvl commando gets more damage, more healing and helps WAY more for the team then my lvl 30 Guardian). She cracks 150k easily, my JG cant get 75k medal guaranteed in every game. And she also heals.

 

I would say just the opposite of what you are trying to imply - in fact, its not the L2P issue of others, its the unexperienced issue of you. You just can not actually play on the level the difference between classes really start to matter. On the overage, "all cats are grey", and you draw your conclusion from that.

 

Way to go.

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Dps meters are the only way to truly judge damage. Leaderboards don't give an accurate account of damage as it doesn't account for actual involvement. I've came in close to top of the charts and Ive come in close to the bottom, it all depends on what's going. Hold a point in alderaan while everyone fights in mid and tell me you top charts. Ninja doors in voidstar and see how high your damage gets.

 

There are too Manu variables in pvp to make an accurate judgement. Add to it that our current best pvp spec centers around an aoe and it's easy to pad numbers.

 

I'm not saying I think we are weak, especially after 30. The difference is most classes have a few high burst abilities while aside from sweep/smash our damage is relatively spread out. Shatters and the knights equiv front end damage should be equal to or higher than it's dot and the dot needs to lose 3 secs since using it on cd overwrites it anyways. I could be wrong, but this could make going 31pts in vigilance, vengeance worthwhile in pvp.

 

Until we get combat logs and dps meters, or someone who really like math does the theorycrafting, it is all just conjecture and personal experience.

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Well, OP, thanks for the ideas for PvP, I use master strike occasionally, but I'll definitely take some of your advice. I don't feel focus starved usually as a Vigi because of the Focus from damage in my form.

 

And I did come to the forum to figure out why the game got effing hard 28-32, The end of Chapter 1 quest where I had to fight the elites were murdering me for half an hour, had to use Call on the Force for 2 of them.

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Warzone pvp is a team game it isn't about who dps the most or who even killed the most. It's about winning and accomplishing as much as possible in a variety of ways. That's why the game auto sorts by medals. And I think in "warzone" guardian has a advantage over most classes. I don't care if some commando did 50k more dmg then me dps alone doesn't decide who wins.

 

But if someone wants to talk about the pros and cons of 1 vs 1 whichever classes that's fine. But I strongly disagree with anyone who thinks jg is cannon fodder in warzone.

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Another person who thinks they know everything about a class they havn't even gotten to max level yet. Guardian is weak right now compared to other classes. The other tanks do the job better. The other dps do the job better. Practically everyone else, except maybe Sentinels, solo quest better.

 

Another person who would rather spam rhetoric then read a post.

 

If I routinely top warzones at lvl 36, I hardly expect to be worse at lvl 50...

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Reading further on, people make some good points - mainly

 

1) That topping dmg doesnt mean you killed a lot of players, its possible that damage was spread around to many.

 

- This is definitely true in WOW (again...sigh) where heals were extreme, dps went on forever, and it wasnt possible to kill someone without enormous burst, double teaming or CC/lockuouts. I dont think its true for TOR... when I jump on a target they are usually dead within 5-7 abilities. Still, I see the point.

 

2) That guardians dont need to top dps to be meaningful players - a hell yes to this, the dmg red we bring to groups even while dps specced, cannot be denied. It's frelling amazing in fact.

 

3) I'm sure there was some more. But I want to go play now...

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Another person who would rather spam rhetoric then read a post.

 

If I routinely top warzones at lvl 36, I hardly expect to be worse at lvl 50...

 

Not if the class doesn't scale properly at max level, which is what 90% of the guards/juggs are actually complaining about...

 

But thanks for confirming this thread isn't worth a 2nd look

Edited by dargor-
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Yeah, as a guardian tank i am usually in the top 3 dps and always number 1 in defense. I am also brand new to mmos. If you know the class you will do well. It is not an easy class, resource management is harder than most. So you need to know your abilities well.
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Not if the class doesn't scale properly at max level, which is what 90% of the guards/juggs are actually complaining about...

 

But thanks for confirming this thread isn't worth a 2nd look

 

Exaggeration fail.

 

I pretty highly doubt that 90% of guards/Juggs are even at level 50 yet.

 

Also please tell me how "scaling" makes u worse from 36 to 50 in a level boosted arena? So far as I'm aware, the only difference is avaliable abilities between a lvl 10 and a lvl 50...ergo, what u can do at 36, u could only do better at 50. I admit, I may be mistaken about these mechanics.

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scoreboards in PvP - JK/SW are cannon fodder

people personal experience - at lvl 28 till 35 JK/SW are ridiculously hard to level solo, compared to other classes

 

some brilliant individuals on forums - WAIT FOLKS YOU ARE JUST BAD!!!! LUL!

 

amazing, dude, i applause you personally. 10 years of MMOing, over 20 years of gaming overall, cybersport level in Starcraft (my teamie and 2vs2 partner won WCG prelimenary russia 2002), hardcore raiding in WoW (top 3 russian guild), glad title and i am 100 percent positive that JK/SW are poorly designed and overall weak compared to other classes (my 14 lvl commando gets more damage, more healing and helps WAY more for the team then my lvl 30 Guardian). She cracks 150k easily, my JG cant get 75k medal guaranteed in every game. And she also heals.

 

I would say just the opposite of what you are trying to imply - in fact, its not the L2P issue of others, its the unexperienced issue of you. You just can not actually play on the level the difference between classes really start to matter. On the overage, "all cats are grey", and you draw your conclusion from that.

 

Way to go.

 

l2p... really sorry but thats the truth...

i have played a Jedi up to 29 in beta ..

i have played recently a trooper to 50

 

and started yesterday a new Jedi Guardian, and im wrecking face ...

my Vanguard feels squishy compared to my Jedi

 

all pugs:

 

http://imageshack.us/f/444/screenshot2011123023594.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/f/716/screenshot2011123019301.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/141/screenshot2011123018481.jpg/

 

topping damage/kills/medals vs lvl 40-50 imps /Bhs / Sorcs + republic mirrors

without any cc... just 1 cd, 5 attacks, 1 leap, 1 snare, 1 aoe

 

considering what you get with lvl 50... i just start rolling eyes when i see this QQ posts

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Didn't read because of wall of text but I agree. As defense guardian, I have had NO PROBLEMS with anything. I can easily get medals in PvP (ussualy top or top 3), I can easily pull multiple groups or 2 elites of same/higher level and survive, capable of soloing several herois with healer so I see no problems with their current condition.

 

The only thing I would like is more aoe or ranged abiltiies to make life easier but it's not necessary.

Edited by Idunhavaname
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