Because there are a lot more factors involved then that that require scrutiny. The context of the overarching storyline tells us that yes the Sith took the territory but couldn't hold it, and internal Sith politics also were different then, which in turns affects the arguments for the Kaggath.

 

Yes, the Sith Empire conquered approximately 60% of the galaxy, but it couldn't control it. Those territories fell quickly to civil wars, insurrections and Republic counter-strikes. It's not an accurate model of the true power the Sith Empire could extend.

Those Republic "counter-strikes" wouldn't happen 'cause the Republic doesn't exist in this Kaggath.

I give up. I can't debate against everybody.

Remember: the Kaggath combatants are at their height of power. So whenever the SE controlled the most land, that'd be the structure they enter the Kaggath with.

 

You're right, it was a slopy attack on the SE's part. But we've seen many armies in Star Wars do the same. We've also seen briliant attacks on the SE's part though.... like the one with which they conquered a nice piece of the galaxy at the begining of the Great Galactic War. Master Gnost-Dural himself stated it was briliant.

 

But I need not defend the SE in this since. After all: the GE was beated in a battle with Ewoks....

Yes because the Ewoks didn't have help from Rebel forces, Chewie didn't hijack an AT-ST and they were fighting against the 501st in their prime when by the Battle of Endor they would be well past their prime due to their fast aging.

Remember: the Kaggath combatants are at their height of power. So whenever the SE controlled the most land, that'd be the structure they enter the Kaggath with.

 

You're right, it was a slopy attack on the SE's part. But we've seen many armies in Star Wars do the same. We've also seen briliant attacks on the SE's part though.... like the one with which they conquered a nice piece of the galaxy at the begining of the Great Galactic War. Master Gnost-Dural himself stated it was briliant.

 

But I need not defend the SE in this since. After all: the GE was beated in a battle with Ewoks....

Ewoks is probably the most over-used fallback argument in Star Wars. The 501st were well past their prime, significantly reduced in number compared to that of any other legion (they were the only 'pure' legion left iirc), and completely caught off-guard against superior numbers. Plus, there's the rescaling of power for plot purposes, which is another massive factor. The 501st were weak only because they had to lose for the storyline. Blame Lucas for that one.

As for the Kaggath height of power rule that refers to the combatants themselves rather then their forces, doesn't it? The Emperor grew more powerful as the war re-ignited, as he fed on their deaths?

If that's the case, then the Sith are at a massive disadvantage, because the Emperor's own power was built on the corpses of his forces. Palpatine, however, was at his peak right before Endor, where the Empire was still a powerhouse driven by his will.

Remember: the Kaggath combatants are at their height of power. So whenever the SE controlled the most land, that'd be the structure they enter the Kaggath with.

That's an excellent point. Now that I think about it though, who get which planets? I know that spunds strange, but if the SE controlled about 70% of the galaxy, but the GE controlled then entire galaxy (basically) who has the planets over lapped?

Just thought I'd ask. I've been reading these and thought it might help the debate.

Ya I know what map your saying, its in the end right? Ya but remember that was during the early years, the Republic gained that back.

 

That video also shows the incompetence of the SE leaders, not to say that the GE leaders aren't incompetent at times but...the SE literally just threw waves and waves of men at the enemy which consisted of a jedi master, 7 dozen jedi knights and 4,000 Republic troops vs 50,000 SE troops...and won thus the SE had to call reinforcements to help.

 

So 1 Master + 49 knights + 4,000 Troops= 4,050 total

 

against

 

50,000 SE Troops, the Spartans would be proud of the Republic Forces.

This is only aiding the argument that Force Users lolz pwn regular troops.

50 peace-loving, light-side using Jedi did that amount of damage with only help from 4,000 troops?

I'm assuming that 50 rage-fueled, battle-hardened, savage Sith could do much more.

This is only aiding the argument that Force Users lolz pwn regular troops.

Not really. If the Republic forces had a massive tactical advantage the way they did, then it stands to reason that the Sith would take massive losses.

This is only aiding the argument that Force Users lolz pwn regular troops.

No, it's saying that SE troops suck. If they can't beat a few jedi and some troops, good luck with Dark Troopers, if what Aurbere said is true!

This is only aiding the argument that Force Users lolz pwn regular troops.

Whoops my math was wrong, ok 84 Jedi knights(was always bad at Math lol)

So actually 4,085 Republic Forces.

But not really, an overwhelming force should take down any Force User no matter how powerful they are(save for Luke). More to that, it was only 84 Jedi Knights and 1 Master...you know how many Jedi were at the Arena battle in EP 2? 212 and they all would have died had it not been for Yoda.

Whoops my math was wrong, ok 84 Jedi knights(was always bad at Math lol)

 

So actually 4,085 Republic Forces.

 

But not really, an overwhelming force should take down any Force User no matter how powerful they are(save for Luke). More to that, it was only 84 Jedi Knights and 1 Master...you know how many Jedi were at the Arena battle in EP 2? 212 and they all would have died had it not been for Yoda.

Good point. HOWEVER: You are assuming that a Jedi to Droid numbers ratio (on Geonosis) is the same as a SE to GE ratio. The GE does not outnumber the SE by nearly as much as the droids outnumbered the Jedi on Geonosis.

Good point. HOWEVER: You are assuming that a Jedi to Droid numbers ratio (on Geonosis) is the same as a SE to GE ratio. The GE does not outnumber the SE by nearly as much as the droids outnumbered the Jedi on Geonosis.

In all fairness, the GE doesn't need to have such a drastic numerical advantage. Keep in mind the battle droids of the Clone Wars era were woeful in regards to tactics - see the battle of Naboo, where they attacked in parade formation. Stormtroopers are much more capable individually then battle droids, who rely solely on overwhelming numbers.

Good point. HOWEVER: You are assuming that a Jedi to Droid numbers ratio (on Geonosis) is the same as a SE to GE ratio. The GE does not outnumber the SE by nearly as much as the droids outnumbered the Jedi on Geonosis.

Was speaking from a strict battle really, the Jedi were outnumbered 50 to 1 on Geonosis. I was mainly just pointing out, that the SE can be quite full of themselves and arrogant...not saying the GE commanders can't be the same way though but just throwing it out there the SE went into the battle with 0% strategy at that time.

Was speaking from a strict battle really, the Jedi were outnumbered 50 to 1 on Geonosis. I was mainly just pointing out, that the SE can be quite full of themselves and arrogant...not saying the GE commanders can't be the same way though but just throwing it out there the SE went into the battle with 0% strategy.

Granted.

They went into the Battle of Bothuwai with 0% battle strategy. That doesn't represent everything the SE has done.

Granted.

 

They went into the Battle of Bothuwai with 0% battle strategy. That doesn't represent everything the SE has done.

Oh I know, I know, again it was really just to point out that commanders are not without faults is all.

Granted.

 

They went into the Battle of Bothuwai with 0% battle strategy. That doesn't represent everything the SE has done.

Keep in mind this particular argument stems back to the effectiveness of Force Sensitives vs regular soldiers. I don't think anyone's making that claim, we're just rebutting that having Force Sensitives in your army = auto-win.

While I doubt they can participate in this, I'd say the remnents of the Jedi Order would likely be more apt to side with Sideous, particularly when word got out about the Sith Emperor wanting to have a galaxy-wide human sacrifice to elevate himself to "godhood..."

Palpatine was interested in power, but Palpatine also considered power to be irrelevent if all his subjects were too dead to serve him...

I think this would be decided in space, and the GE clearly has the advantage in space due to TIE Defenders, Imperial-II Star Destroyers, Super Star Destroyers, etc.

Most starfighters in both the SE and GE lacked shields, TIE Defenders had shields and could target more than one thing at a time, was also more maneuverable than a TIE Interceptor.

If you win in the space battles you can always potentially resort to orbital bombardment.

Remember: the Kaggath combatants are at their height of power. So whenever the SE controlled the most land, that'd be the structure they enter the Kaggath with.

 

You're right, it was a slopy attack on the SE's part. But we've seen many armies in Star Wars do the same. We've also seen briliant attacks on the SE's part though.... like the one with which they conquered a nice piece of the galaxy at the begining of the Great Galactic War. Master Gnost-Dural himself stated it was briliant.

 

But I need not defend the SE in this since. After all: the GE was beated in a battle with Ewoks....

It's not really the height of their power, though, if they are over-extended as much as they clearly were. If the Republic of the TOR era could counter-attack and take those systems, the GE would steamroll them.

^This. Remember Bail Organa. "We need weapons and starships and people with the courage to use them."

 

A rebellion like the Rebel Alliance to Restore the Republic would never have risen without Vader and Sidious. The "leaders" were too scared to do anything real.

You fail to take into account however, that it would be the SE supplying them with weapons, starships and people - they would basically do exactly the same thing that happened in TFU (except this time they would be doing it deliberately, rather than accidentally) e.g. the Separatist Movement on Ord Mantell was being supplied by the SE, just as the Balmorran Resistance on Balmorra was being supplied by the Republic.

Oh and question. I'm pretty sure all the Empire did was gather all the leaders in one place, so they could be wiped out in a single blow. They didn't supply them with weapons and starships - that would be beyond stupid, surely?

I usually like to support the underdogs in these threads, because then I have to convince myself as well as others.

 

That being said, I do think the Sith Empire is the underdog here. The Galactic Empire is just so.... HUGE. (Quantity over quality, anyone?)

 

The Kaggath comes down to the death of the person. Be the military strong or not, if there's infighting or not, there still has to be a plan to take down the leader.

 

I just don't see how the Sith Empire could kill Darth Sidious.

Endgame for both sides has been discussed. In a nutshell it involves the sacking of Dromund Kaas or Coruscant - and the success or failure of such a move depends on how successful either side is in the war. If the GE are winning, they will not be ambushed on Dromund Kaas by Harrowers (it will also be easier for them to discover the coordinates) while they are looking for the Emperor's invisible fortress. Which they can blast to pieces unhindered. They will also need a sizable fleet to invade the planet and overcome the initial forces which depends on advantages etc etc

And the same goes for Coruscant. They will need to be winning the war so the GE forces are spread thin, so they can easily blast a whole through the SDs guarding the planet and orbitally bombard the imperial palace. If they are not winning the war they'd likely have to contend with a SSD and reinforcments which would no doubt be lying in ambush (due to Sidious' foresight). But if they are winning the war the intial force will be inconsequential as will the reinforcments which will be minimal. And if they are winning the Ascendant Spear will likely be still operational and will strike faster than expected, allowing them to bombard the palace (and kill the Emperor) before reinforcements can arrive. Then there's the chance Sidious could escape, either via the Lusankya (unlikely) or his personal Sith Interdictor (likely). The success or failure of such a move also depending on the status of the war (not as much though) as the SE would have stolen the plans, or simply stolen, one or several interdictors as it was technology they did not possess. Much like Angral stole the plans to various super weapons.

So as you can see both combatants are perfectly capable of being killed, it just depends on who wins the war.

From my point of view the galatic empire would win.

I like to point out to ww2.

Japan was by very definition stronger then the usa.

Yet the usa won because of there industeral might.

Even(and i highly doubt it) if the sith empire was able to win every fight agains the galatic empire they would still not be able to replace there losses as quik and the galatice empire could.

The only way this could end quikly.

Is via assasintation of either emperor.

From my point of view the galatic empire would win.

I like to point out to ww2.

 

Japan was by very definition stronger then the usa.

Yet the usa won because of there industeral might.

Even(and i highly doubt it) if the sith empire was able to win every fight agains the galatic empire they would still not be able to replace there losses as quik and the galatice empire could.

I respect your opinion, but this example isn't the best - seeings as Japan did not have force users

If anything it works the other way. Japan is stronger than the USA (I don't know if thats fact but I'll take your word for it) much like the GE is statistically stronger than the SE. However the USA had nuclear bombs, which they dropped on Nagazaki and Hiroshima (which was disgusting by the way, just saying) and ended the war. These nuclear bombs represent the Force and its tremendous power. So the force users of the SE are going to be like dropping bombs on Japan. But thats just how I see it.

Endgame for both sides has been discussed. In a nutshell it involves the sacking of Dromund Kaas or Coruscant - and the success or failure of such a move depends on how successful either side is in the war. If the GE are winning, they will not be ambushed on Dromund Kaas by Harrowers (it will also be easier for them to discover the coordinates) while they are looking for the Emperor's invisible fortress. Which they can blast to pieces unhindered. They will also need a sizable fleet to invade the planet and overcome the initial forces which depends on advantages etc etc

 

And the same goes for Coruscant. They will need to be winning the war so the GE forces are spread thin, so they can easily blast a whole through the SDs guarding the planet and orbitally bombard the imperial palace. If they are not winning the war they'd likely have to contend with a SSD and reinforcments which would no doubt be lying in ambush (due to Sidious' foresight). But if they are winning the war the intial force will be inconsequential as will the reinforcments which will be minimal. And if they are winning the Ascendant Spear will likely be still operational and will strike faster than expected, allowing them to bombard the palace (and kill the Emperor) before reinforcements can arrive. Then there's the chance Sidious could escape, either via the Lusankya (unlikely) or his personal Sith Interdictor (likely). The success or failure of such a move also depending on the status of the war (not as much though) as the SE would have stolen the plans, or simply stolen, one or several interdictors as it was technology they did not possess. Much like Angral stole the plans to various super weapons.

 

So as you can see both combatants are perfectly capable of being killed, it just depends on who wins the war.

Just throwing it out there, but the Ascendant Spear's surprise advance strike on Coruscant wouldn't work, what with the planetary shielding and Golan battlestations and whatnot.

Just throwing it out there, but the Ascendant Spear's surprise advance strike on Coruscant wouldn't work, what with the planetary shielding and Golan battlestations and whatnot.

Oh lord, what crazy weapon have the EU writers conjured up this time....*searches Wookieepedia*....oh not to bad, just like a heavily armed space station. However I also discovered that Coruscant has a four-tiered defence system, so this seems a good a chance as any to see how the SE could win this fight, as too kill Sidious they would have to get past them.

1st Tier: Space mines - these can be deactivated from below, an infiltrator or a brainwashed member of the GE could easily achieve this (e.g. Mara Jade) However I'm not sure these existed until the New Republic era as they are only present in the Battle of Coruscant and the Lusankya managed to escape Coruscant without encountering them - despite it being under the control of the Rebel Alliance.

2nd Tier: Golan Defense Platforms - which you spoke of. But I'm afraid they wouldn't last long against the Spear as they seem to be only equal/slightly stronger than an SD. Still it delays the bombardment on the Imperial Palace a little while longer. Allowing more time for Sidious to get to safety and/or for the ambush to arrive.

3rd Tier: Planetary shield - can be deactivated much like during the Sacking or Coruscant again by an infiltrator or one of the GE's own.

4th Tier: Turbolasers - inconsequential seeing as the SE won't enter the planetary atmosphere.

Oh lord, what crazy weapon have the EU writers conjured up this time....*searches Wookieepedia*....oh not to bad, just like a heavily armed space station. However I also discovered that Coruscant has a four-tiered defence system, so this seems a good a chance as any to see how the SE could win this fight, as too kill Sidious they would have to get past them.

 

1st Tier: Space mines - these can be deactivated from below, an infiltrator or a brainwashed member of the GE could easily achieve this (e.g. Mara Jade) However I'm not sure these existed until the New Republic era as they are only present in the Battle of Coruscant and the Lusankya managed to escape Coruscant without encountering them - despite it being under the control of the Rebel Alliance.

Yeah, I don't recall it either - I've actually got that book. Lusankya literally tearing Coruscant a new one? Hell yeah. But that bring me to the next argument:

2nd Tier: Golan Defense Platforms - which you spoke of. But I'm afraid they wouldn't last long against the Spear as they seem to be only equal/slightly stronger than an SD. Still it delays the bombardment on the Imperial Palace a little while longer. Allowing more time for Sidious to get to safety and/or for the ambush to arrive.

Not true. During the Lusankya's escape from Coruscant it traded fire with a Golan battle station - which managed to hold its own without taking any noteworthy damage. The Lusankya ended up jettisoning its repulsor berth to create a shield for its escape.

If a single Golan can hold its own against a Executor-Class, the Spear doesn't really have a chance.

3rd Tier: Planetary shield - can be deactivated much like during the Sacking or Coruscant again by an infiltrator or one of the GE's own.

 

4th Tier: Turbolasers - inconsequential seeing as the SE won't enter the planetary atmosphere.

It would take a huge undertaking to infiltrate the GE's capital like that unnoticed, and they'd need incredibly high clearance. Plus I don't think it's a simple on/off switch.

The point is it's going to be a lot more difficult then I think you've given it credit for, which is bound to happen when you're summarizing tactical details, but I felt it worth pointing out.

Yeah, I don't recall it either - I've actually got that book. Lusankya literally tearing Coruscant a new one? Hell yeah. But that bring me to the next argument:

 

 

 

Not true. During the Lusankya's escape from Coruscant it traded fire with a Golan battle station - which managed to hold its own without taking any noteworthy damage. The Lusankya ended up jettisoning its repulsor berth to create a shield for its escape.

 

If a single Golan can hold its own against a Executor-Class, the Spear doesn't really have a chance.

 

 

 

It would take a huge undertaking to infiltrate the GE's capital like that unnoticed, and they'd need incredibly high clearance. Plus I don't think it's a simple on/off switch.

 

The point is it's going to be a lot more difficult then I think you've given it credit for, which is bound to happen when you're summarizing tactical details, but I felt it worth pointing out.

Well that depend on whether you believe a SSD can pack more of a punch than the Spear, IMO the spear does better. Even though the SSD has way more batteries, they can't all be brought to bear at once. Whereas the spears batteries are fuelled by the force, and fire precise, combined, singular shots that can tear capital ships apart. With a little help the Spear would make short for of the Golans.

But yes, you do make a fair point. It is a complex process, but I do believe the SE has the power to disable the planetary sheilds. And there probably is an on/off switch (or something similar), after all Shae Vizla managed to disable the entire defense grid. After all nothings blaster-proof.

Well that depend on whether you believe a SSD can pack more of a punch than the Spear, IMO the spear does better. Even though the SSD has way more batteries, they can't all be brought to bear at once. Whereas the spears batteries are fuelled by the force, and fire precise, combined, singular shots that can tear capital ships apart. With a little help the Spear would make short for of the Golans.

 

But yes, you do make a fair point. It is a complex process, but I do believe the SE has the power to disable the planetary sheilds. And there probably is an on/off switch (or something similar), after all Shae Vizla managed to disable the entire defense grid. After all nothings blaster-proof.

Well, firepower's one thing, shielding's another. The Spear wouldn't last long at all under direct fire from a Golan III - it doesn't have the shield capability. I mean, a stock standard Terminus Class couldn't even go toe to toe with the Republic's Valor class - they were woefully underequipped for ships of their size, and the AS' retrofitting seems only to be in regards to its weaponry. The question is, would the Spear even last long enough under direct fire to take out a single Golan?