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1.2 = best pvp gear for free, and no reason to play rated. people are quitting

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
1.2 = best pvp gear for free, and no reason to play rated. people are quitting

AugustusD's Avatar


AugustusD
03.16.2012 , 07:45 PM | #1371
Hardcore MMO PvE and PvP players are similar. For PvE players it's about capping and getting all the best loot as fast as possible. This way they spend the next few months enjoying all the content with ease until the next expansion comes and makes everything they did worthless.

For PvP players its about capping out and getting all the best loot as fast as possible so that they can kill the average player with ease and enjoy PvPing till the next expansion comes out and makes everything they did worthless.


You can never please both the casual crowd and the hardcore crowd. The crowd a company caters to depends on how much new blood the game is attracting. If you have enough casual players coming and going you dont have to pay as much attention to the bandwidth hogging hardcore players who will subscribe longer.

I just don't buy the PvP for the "challenge" thing. The first 10 times you PvPed might have been for the challenge. The next 50 times was in the chase for something otherwise you would have been bored by now. Hardcore players both in PvP and in PvE do the same thing over and over and over again to be better then the average player. Not just through skill but artifically by time invested like Goku after the Hyperbolic time chamber. Otherwise Experience points wouldnt exist. Its just my opinion but all MMOs ive played have been setup this way.

People seem to have no problem with this when it comes to PVE. Level 1 players dont stand a chance in level 50 content. When a level 45 player starts forming a group and a level 30 asks to join hes often told something like "your level is to low and you'll die to fast". But when it comes to PvP everyone expects the playing field to be even no matter how much time you have invested. This is an MMO not a FPS or fighting game... You have to give PvPers something worth playing the same content over and over and over or they will get bored and quit.

VegaPhone's Avatar


VegaPhone
03.16.2012 , 07:48 PM | #1372
Well, i think the issue is how BM is suppose to give around 12% more dmg but overall with more armor, and higher dps weapons amounts taking a lot less dmg, and of course dishing out more that BM is more than just 12% increase with expertise compared to champion around 10%.

So according to rumor, the new ranking warzones ignore the expertise bonus of normal warzones?


Is that the problem?

It is still BM armor, so the stats are better than other regualr items and the armor rating is also higher. Also people dont have 100% BM gear since they optimize with PVE gear with other parts for more stats.

So the advantage of those who played more should still exist, but without the 14% increase in dmg.

However, it seems those who raided might have an advantage with raid gear doing the ranked WZ.

VegaPhone's Avatar


VegaPhone
03.16.2012 , 07:55 PM | #1373
Quote: Originally Posted by AugustusD View Post
Hardcore MMO PvE and PvP players are similar. For PvE players it's about capping and getting all the best loot as fast as possible. This way they spend the next few months enjoying all the content with ease until the next expansion comes and makes everything they did worthless.

For PvP players its about capping out and getting all the best loot as fast as possible so that they can kill the average player with ease and enjoy PvPing till the next expansion comes out and makes everything they did worthless.


You can never please both the casual crowd and the hardcore crowd. The crowd a company caters to depends on how much new blood the game is attracting. If you have enough casual players coming and going you dont have to pay as much attention to the bandwidth hogging hardcore players who will subscribe longer.

I just don't buy the PvP for the "challenge" thing. The first 10 times you PvPed might have been for the challenge. The next 50 times was in the chase for something otherwise you would have been bored by now. Hardcore players both in PvP and in PvE do the same thing over and over and over again to be better then the average player. Not just through skill but artifically by time invested like Goku after the Hyperbolic time chamber. Otherwise Experience points wouldnt exist. Its just my opinion but all MMOs ive played have been setup this way.

People seem to have no problem with this when it comes to PVE. Level 1 players dont stand a chance in level 50 content. When a level 45 player starts forming a group and a level 30 asks to join hes often told something like "your level is to low and you'll die to fast". But when it comes to PvP everyone expects the playing field to be even no matter how much time you have invested. This is an MMO not a FPS or fighting game... You have to give PvPers something worth playing the same content over and over and over or they will get bored and quit.
Except the problem with adding more and more items means more and more imbalances.

They could add items that look different for more effort into a higher rank. I would be cool with that.

Other than that, from a pvper perspective and wanting to pvp a lot of the time would be done with alternatives in the MMO to have sand box mechanics, and instanced mechanics.

The sand box would add a lot to the repetitions and helping with the next expansion with higher levels and higher tier items for the hardcore pvp player.

Instanced pvp can offer a lot till the next expansion by still having an even playing field and still be fun to repeat by the different number of instances and the choice to choose which one to join.

If they had more warzones and the choice to choose them, then a pvp set grind would not be important.

If they also had sand box pvp attached to their game, then they could also take their sweet time for the next pvp expansion as far as I am concerned.

AugustusD's Avatar


AugustusD
03.16.2012 , 07:56 PM | #1374
Quote: Originally Posted by VegaPhone View Post
Well, i think the issue is how BM is suppose to give around 12% more dmg but overall with more armor, and higher dps weapons amounts taking a lot less dmg, and of course dishing out more that BM is more than just 12% increase with expertise compared to champion around 10%.

So according to rumor, the new ranking warzones ignore the expertise bonus of normal warzones?


Is that the problem?

It is still BM armor, so the stats are better than other regualr items and the armor rating is also higher. Also people dont have 100% BM gear since they optimize with PVE gear with other parts for more stats.

So the advantage of those who played more should still exist, but without the 14% increase in dmg.

However, it seems those who raided might have an advantage with raid gear doing the ranked WZ.

This is part of the problem. Just like a ton of PvEer's never want to PvP a lot of PvP players never want to PvE. PvP players tend to not want to have to PvE to compete in PvP. Ask Mythic how people in DAOC felt about Trials of Atlantis(I loved it but I like PvE too). This is shown to be historically true and I think its true here as well.

Varicite's Avatar


Varicite
03.16.2012 , 07:57 PM | #1375
Quote: Originally Posted by Ahebish View Post
No they have gripes with under geared people who know their role but can't perform it because BW isn't Blizzard.

Out of all this stuff you said, the only thing I really enjoyed reading, was the last part.

1 or 2 of them isn't a big deal

But obviously you don't have to deal with 5-7 of them every other wz... Like on my server.

I don't expect fresh 50's to know how to win, but I do expect them to not be lazy and Q with 11k HP.

BH merc buddy of mine from the 10-49 bracket reached 50. He did what you said is so easy to do.

He went heal spec because he was using level 40 gear in the 50's bracket with 11k HP.

Guess how useful he was in the 50's bracket?

I was on my PT with 500 expertise tank spec and he couldn't heal me with my CD's active.

Do tell me what roles these fresh 50's with 11k HP can perform that can't be countered in less than 3 second

They can't run the ball
They can't heal
They can't do damage

Oh wait they can interrupt sorry I forgot.

And if they can make it past the first 1/2 of the wz without dying sure a sorc could pull someone to the goal line (which most of the time sorcs with 11k HP never make it past the 1/2 way mark before they are ripped down in 3 seconds or less)

Even a geared healer can't heal an 11k HP player with a single geared DPS class on them.

It's simple logic. There's only so much an 11k HP can do, much less someone geared can do for them.

As good as I am at my class I can't carry 7 people with less than 13k HP regardless of their class/spec/pvp prowess.

And I know any vet pvp'er knows where their limitations are.

Carrying 1 even 3 of them is fine... but 4 or more and it's pretty much a guaranteed loss considering most wz Q's in the 50's bracket are all premades on my server.

First thing I do when I enter a wz is check to see how many people have less than 13k

if it's 3 or less I'll stay

if it's 4 or more, I leave before the wz even starts.

I find it comical the comments about my damage... I'm sorry my class got nerf'd 4 times in a row and can't do 500-750k damage per warzone like all the other classes.

For that I am humbled. And I beg forgiveness.

Don't forget to buff when you leave spawn. Because if you want to base PVP prowess on damage those 500-750k damage dealers are no more of a threat to me than your critical analyzing of my experience/pvp prowess based on a screenshot.
Don't worry, I don't base my judgments on damage screenshots when it comes to PvP prowess. I just thought you would have put up numbers a little more substantial when posting them on an internet forum. Most dps classes can do ~350k damage in full Champ is all I'm saying.

I expect for a Merc healer would have it pretty rough, as they depend on being able to take a beating to do their job most of the time. The entry to endgame PvP isn't as equally rough for all classes, as I'm sure you know. It was pretty painless for me, other than all the times I got roflstomped, but dying kinda goes w/ the territory in PvP.

You based your accusations on me personally though, not your friend. And I did my part when it came to winning more often than not, because fortunately I was not an undergeared Merc healer. I have a grapple that I'm pretty good at peeling for healers/breaking guards, and stopping carriers w/, a 6 second interrupt, snares, and decent damage even when I was undergeared, because as you know, I am an "OP Pyro PT" who is getting nerfed in 1.2.

An AoE stun works wonders when people are chasing your ball carrier also, as well as a DFA w/ all cds running to pressure guarded tank/healer combos or stop caps. Did you know that targeted AoEs are super awesome for stopping cappers who think they're safe on the other side of the node? I did too, but most mouthbreathers don't.

I'm obviously not going to go into the ways that every single class can contribute to matches when undergeared, because I don't play those classes, and I'd just be making something up that I think might work. Those are just some of the things that I can think of off the top of my head.

I don't have to deal w/ a ton of them in WZs, especially since the 1.1.5 changes; I'm sorry there are so many on your server, but at least they will be gearing up fast. Like I said, I agree that most undergeared players are awful to have on your team, just not on the grounds that they're undergeared. : P
Quote: Originally Posted by JayPres View Post
Strap your digital dog to your digital roof and take your ideologies, lovely wife, and sweet little 8yr old girl to a PVE server where you fit best.

VegaPhone's Avatar


VegaPhone
03.16.2012 , 08:03 PM | #1376
Quote: Originally Posted by AugustusD View Post
This is part of the problem. Just like a ton of PvEer's never want to PvP a lot of PvP players never want to PvE. PvP players tend to not want to have to PvE to compete in PvP. Ask Mythic how people in DAOC felt about Trials of Atlantis(I loved it but I like PvE too). This is shown to be historically true and I think its true here as well.
Well, then its not a big deal for me. Like you said its the nature of the game to have lvls of 40s being to well equipped for 30s and cant do the same content.

Part of the frustration is probably from hitting lvl 50 and expecting that to mean an even playing field but lvl 50 is misleading as it being the final stage.

When someone hits lvl 50 it more like 50.0, and when they do their dailies to get better mods its 50.1, and then they get centurion and champ items, its 50.2, etc

Well, at least now I know whats going in. I think its normal, but I hope it does not mean i have to spend a lot of time to raid, or what not to equal the playing field. That would be a problem. As it is now, the grind to BM is not that bad at all, but the advantages seem a bit too much for my liking. I would prefer the playing field to be a bit more even, and more about options of play, or immersive options of play like sand box.

Varicite's Avatar


Varicite
03.16.2012 , 08:06 PM | #1377
Quote: Originally Posted by AugustusD View Post
Hardcore MMO PvE and PvP players are similar. For PvE players it's about capping and getting all the best loot as fast as possible. This way they spend the next few months enjoying all the content with ease until the next expansion comes and makes everything they did worthless.

For PvP players its about capping out and getting all the best loot as fast as possible so that they can kill the average player with ease and enjoy PvPing till the next expansion comes out and makes everything they did worthless.


You can never please both the casual crowd and the hardcore crowd. The crowd a company caters to depends on how much new blood the game is attracting. If you have enough casual players coming and going you dont have to pay as much attention to the bandwidth hogging hardcore players who will subscribe longer.

I just don't buy the PvP for the "challenge" thing. The first 10 times you PvPed might have been for the challenge. The next 50 times was in the chase for something otherwise you would have been bored by now. Hardcore players both in PvP and in PvE do the same thing over and over and over again to be better then the average player. Not just through skill but artifically by time invested like Goku after the Hyperbolic time chamber. Otherwise Experience points wouldnt exist. Its just my opinion but all MMOs ive played have been setup this way.

People seem to have no problem with this when it comes to PVE. Level 1 players dont stand a chance in level 50 content. When a level 45 player starts forming a group and a level 30 asks to join hes often told something like "your level is to low and you'll die to fast". But when it comes to PvP everyone expects the playing field to be even no matter how much time you have invested. This is an MMO not a FPS or fighting game... You have to give PvPers something worth playing the same content over and over and over or they will get bored and quit.
I'm just curious why it's so hard to believe that some people actually do enjoy PvP for the sake of PvP, and the gear is only a means to do that w/out a disadvantage?

I don't agree that it's the same thing over and over again simply because the maps are the same. The teams are different, the players are different, and their reactions are different.

It's enough for me to just fight people and have fun doing it. I enjoy progression as well (obviously, since I'm playing a RPG), but I don't think it has any real place in a competitive PvP environment. I do believe in that arena of play, things should be as even as possible given the differences between mods, classes, and setups.
Quote: Originally Posted by JayPres View Post
Strap your digital dog to your digital roof and take your ideologies, lovely wife, and sweet little 8yr old girl to a PVE server where you fit best.

AugustusD's Avatar


AugustusD
03.16.2012 , 08:27 PM | #1378
Quote: Originally Posted by VegaPhone View Post
Well, then its not a big deal for me. Like you said its the nature of the game to have lvls of 40s being to well equipped for 30s and cant do the same content.

Part of the frustration is probably from hitting lvl 50 and expecting that to mean an even playing field but lvl 50 is misleading as it being the final stage.

When someone hits lvl 50 it more like 50.0, and when they do their dailies to get better mods its 50.1, and then they get centurion and champ items, its 50.2, etc

Well, at least now I know whats going in. I think its normal, but I hope it does not mean i have to spend a lot of time to raid, or what not to equal the playing field. That would be a problem. As it is now, the grind to BM is not that bad at all, but the advantages seem a bit too much for my liking. I would prefer the playing field to be a bit more even, and more about options of play, or immersive options of play like sand box.


Tons of MMOs are setup this way from DAOC to Everquest2. In DAOC hitting 50 was just the start. Now you needed to farm RR. In classic you had 50 regular levels and then 10 realm(pvp) levels. Everquest2 was 50 levels and 10AA levels. SWTOR is even more... Its what 50PvE levels and assuming you were PvPing some while leveling by the time you hit 50 you got 30 PvP levels to go. These games are timesinks. Now a days hitting 50 is just the beginning of an even more arduous grind and regular MMO players should know this by now.

To the guy who said he doesnt understand why people dont understand that some people like to PvP for PvP sake. I do understand that. I love to PvP but doing the same warzones over and over against the same people (you know who you are) gets boring after a while even for the most hardcore PvP lover. Now, I'm not judging you. I don't know you and you could love to PvP and never get bored as long as you are playing against another human but others need more motivation than that. This is an MMO. The "average" hardcore PvEer and PvPer are looking for the same thing. You dont see people telling PvEers "Hey man can't you do this zone with just skill? Just equip the most basic gear in your inventory for your level". Most PvPers want gear that helps them kill players just like PvEers want gear that helps them kill mobs.

RealAeiouy's Avatar


RealAeiouy
03.16.2012 , 08:39 PM | #1379
Quote: Originally Posted by Terrestrial View Post
I very much understand the difference. I grew up on systems like SWG where there was actually a hybrid of both pvp and pve and player made gear (still the best system in my opinion). Then I graduated to WoW where, as I noted before, there was a gear progression system in "Ranked PvP" I enjoyed that too because it really struck a competitive chord in me and many other papers.

SWTOR is now poised to really become none of the above. Gear not for winning, just for participation, but not player made. Doled out to the masses, not very good in PvE, etc.

So if we really have moved into care bear mode as far as pvp gear progression, lets just up and admit that's where we are.
Pve gear progression in pvp is care bear. Flat out brawling is core pvp. People who don't like to pvp except for gear are not hardcore. I don't know where you got it twisted.
I put the AssAssIn assassin.

SneakyErvin's Avatar


SneakyErvin
03.16.2012 , 08:41 PM | #1380
Quote: Originally Posted by Incendergel View Post
DaOC had realm ranks. Each rank had a ability. As you gained in realm ranks you became that much more powerful.

In the utopia pvp format people are advocating here that won't work. It has already failed because some people use datacrons, stims, and other things which adjust the skill level....unless you remove all this upon entering a rated warzone.
Sorry, but datacrons arent hard to get, its part of each planet. Or you can read/watch a guide. Its part of leveling. Stims are also part of leveling or things everyone can buy, its up to them if they chose to or not. Its not forced on them, its optional.

Rated gear would not be optional, it would force people into doing that type of thing at a steady rate, this is where fun ends in a game.

I'm not advocating a utopia where everyone has equal gear at all times. I advocate a game where everyone has the chance to get the gear, without having to make schedules irl to not drop ranks or such. In short.

I'm completely against any form of rated BG system that requires a rating for competative gear.

I'm against any form of weekly cap on PvP currency.

Reason for these two opinions is because many people, no make that most, dont have time to spend to keep ratings up or get the points cap each week. Some people might have to skip gaming for a week or two in a row, then the week after they have a chance to catch up, something you cant with a system where ratings decides what gear you can get or a system where currency is capped at a weekly cap.

These days I play alot, more than alot actually. But I used to be in a situation where I just couldnt find time to play. I fell behind horribly in game, and when I actually did find time I didnt have a shot at catching up. And it felt pointless to continue. So I went back to casual PvP but always felt that it was boring, having to run into overly geared people because whoopdidoo, they had time on their hands.

These types of systems have been part of the biggest MMO since its first introduction of PvP. And that game is WoW. Since PvP saw light in that game it has been a time consuming effort, from the first version to the last. Although the last version was more forgiving since everyone had the option to buy the best gear, except for weapons.

It went to the extent in the first version that people had friends play their toons when they didnt have time, just to reach the highest rank to get the best gear. It was even syndicated. Guild/people helped other guilds/people to gain the ranks before backing down for others to have a shot. The server I was on had 1 or maybe two people that had gotten max rank on their own.
Ahahahahah!!