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1.2 = best pvp gear for free, and no reason to play rated. people are quitting

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
1.2 = best pvp gear for free, and no reason to play rated. people are quitting

MPagano's Avatar


MPagano
03.16.2012 , 12:08 PM | #1211
They don't. They are saying that the gear needs to be there to work towards. PvP is only a means for them to the end of gear acquisition. They feel that MMOs are inextricably linked with the concept of continual item replacement.

It's interesting, because they also acknowledge that the gear is very easy to obtain. So here's how the logic is arranged:

Gear is needed to provide incentive to pvp. A corollary to this is that gear worth obtaining will always create some gap (they point out that the gap is negligible beyond the intial centurion grind, which is true in this case).

The incentive to pvp, then, would disappear once the gear is acquired (the point at which everyone is competitive).

They also point out that gear is easily obtained, and so everyone could compete if only they would put in a little time to acquire it.

It then follows that the very thing necessary to provide incentive (gear progression) is quickly exhausted. So by design, the thing they require to PvP is transient at best, and the point at which everyone becomes competitive is when the incentive disappears.

So the only way to maintain incentive is to add more gear progression. We then return to the top of the argument.

Gear worth obtaining is easily acquired and creates a gap. The incentive disappears once everyone is competitive again. New incentive provided by more gear.

Gear worth obtaining is easily acquired and creates a gap. The incentive disappears once everyone is competitive again. New incentive provided by more gear.

Gear worth obtaining is easily acquired and creates a gap. The incentive disappears once everyone is competitive again. New incentive provided by more gear.

...

MPagano's Avatar


MPagano
03.16.2012 , 12:10 PM | #1212
Quote: Originally Posted by Assaultrooper View Post
Completely agree, I faceroll through operation with my guild every week, and I have no place to brag about my gear, Please Bioware stop implementing PvP gear so I can faceroll pvp noobs too!

Hey ok, you said we that aint possible... well ok... can I get PvP gear free so all my alts can have raid worthy gear? Oh wait... that'd ruin the entire game wouldn't it?

Hmmm can You let me afk in warzones and get gear instead, and let all this BS of ranks be "vanity"?
You wouldn't face roll anyone if they used the bolster system at 50. You'd have the same stats as any othe player, and your skill in pvp would allow you to accrue a record of wins.

Varicite's Avatar


Varicite
03.16.2012 , 12:14 PM | #1213
Quote: Originally Posted by MPagano View Post
They don't. They are saying that the gear needs to be there to work towards. PvP is only a means for them to the end of gear acquisition. They feel that MMOs are inextricably linked with the concept of continual item replacement.

It's interesting, because they also acknowledge that the gear is very easy to obtain. So here's how the logic is arranged:

Gear is needed to provide incentive to pvp. A corollary to this is that gear worth obtaining will always create some gap (they point out that the gap is negligible beyond the intial centurion grind, which is true in this case).

The incentive to pvp, then, would disappear once the gear is acquired (the point at which everyone is competitive).

They also point out that gear is easily obtained, and so everyone could compete if only they would put in a little time to acquire it.

It then follows that the very thing necessary to provide incentive (gear progression) is quickly exhausted. So by design, the thing they require to PvP is transient at best, and the point at which everyone becomes competitive is when the incentive disappears.

So the only way to maintain incentive is to add more gear progression. We then return to the top of the argument.

Gear worth obtaining is easily acquired and creates a gap. The incentive disappears once everyone is competitive again. New incentive provided by more gear.

Gear worth obtaining is easily acquired and creates a gap. The incentive disappears once everyone is competitive again. New incentive provided by more gear.

Gear worth obtaining is easily acquired and creates a gap. The incentive disappears once everyone is competitive again. New incentive provided by more gear.

...
And thus the "gear treadmill". We don't need it in PvP. I, for one, certainly don't want it.

PvP gear is there to make sure you can't just PvE and roflstomp everyone else w/ Operations gear, not to make you better than your fellow PvPers. Once you get all of it, it's not "the end and I have nothing to do", that's the beginning.

Now you're at equal stats and don't have to worry about PvErs smashing you w/ an unfair advantage, and your balanced against the rest of the PvPers so that skill/strategy can decide victories.

I can understand that you'd think the PvP is trash if you're only using it as a means to get gear and then feel like you "won" when you complete your set.
Quote: Originally Posted by JayPres View Post
Strap your digital dog to your digital roof and take your ideologies, lovely wife, and sweet little 8yr old girl to a PVE server where you fit best.

Gadian's Avatar


Gadian
03.16.2012 , 12:15 PM | #1214
Quote: Originally Posted by Incendergel View Post

Let us face the reality here. People want stuff handed to them for little to no work. They expect to be able to be as good as someone who has played the game longer, learned the ins and outs of maps, other classes, and whatever else they may or may not have gained. How hard is this to understand? We've seen it in rated BG's in WoW, we have seen it in Arena's. People don't want to climb "ANY" ladder to better themselfs and use the excuse that they are out geared.

Never are they saying they suck, don't keybind, don't know how to LoS/Pillar Hump, etc. It is always the other person is cheating, out gearing them, or just a OP class / flavor of the month.
Really? I thought you were smarter than this. Please take your straw man out of this forum.

I, nor the vast majority of people opposed to stat-based gear rewards, want "to be as good as someone who has played the game longer, learned the ins and outs of maps, other classes, and whatever else they may or may not have gained."

In fact, you are 100% wrong - we want exactly the opposite!

If you play a lot, then you should be a better, smarter player, and your increased skill/experience/technique should be your only advantage over the "lazy" players. In fact, if you have honed these skills, it is precisely why you do not need a gear advantage. I don't see anyone saying otherwise, well, other than you and your straw man.

Let me flip around your example of people who "don't keybind, don't know how to LoS/Pillar Hump, etc." These are the type of people we want to expose! If you suck, and your competition is on your equal gear level, you will be exposed. You can't hide behind huge RNG crits or health pools.

You can't assume that all people who grind are good and all people who don't are bad. There are good players who don't grind, and bad players who do grind, and vice versa.

Your example goes both ways - with equal gear, both the good players and the bad players will be revealed - neither the grinders nor the casuals will be able to hide behind gear. Sounds reasonable right?

That is why if you are arguing for a gear advantage, it makes you look like you fear being exposed.

Gadian's Avatar


Gadian
03.16.2012 , 12:29 PM | #1215
Quote: Originally Posted by RealAeiouy View Post
There are two groups at work here though:

1) people who view it as a sport or competition

2) people who view it as a treadmill to get gear
This pretty much sums up the idealogical difference. I'm going to call camp #1 the PVP community. If you fall into camp #2, then there is a good chance:

1) You do both PVE and PVP
2) You prefer PVE to PVP
3) You don't play this game just to PVP

It all comes down to the philosophical question - who should Bioware cater its PVP experience to? I assert they should cater to the PVP community - including those who only play this game to PVP and have never set foot in a raid/operation. Not to say camp #2 shouldn't PVP, in fact the more the merrier. Just don't expect it to be PVE (wins based on repeatable, memorized mechanics and gear advantages), and you will be fine.

venjinze's Avatar


venjinze
03.16.2012 , 12:38 PM | #1216
Quote: Originally Posted by Richoshist View Post
I love these guys who compare PvE progression to PvP progression.

PvE: Needs progression because they fight mobs with increasingly higher stats.

PvP: Not the case.

PvE: Gets his big mighty lightsaber/blaster and shiny gear to fight PvE mobs and so PvPers don't care when he shows up in a PvP environment with his gear because usually he gets robo-smashed by those with PvP gear due to expertise. Or best-case scenario its a fair fight, so meh.

Don't bother comparing PvE to PvP, it's apples to oranges.
'Not the case' isn't a very constructive arguement, sorry. Would you care to elaborate as to why progression in PvE and PvP is mutually exclusive?
I'm a beast.

Varicite's Avatar


Varicite
03.16.2012 , 12:40 PM | #1217
Quote: Originally Posted by venjinze View Post
'Not the case' isn't a very constructive arguement, sorry. Would you care to elaborate as to why progression in PvE and PvP is mutually exclusive?
Look at the past 2-3 pages and it has been explained multiple times.

Probably why the person you posted opted not to say the exact same long-winded argument that they themselves probably already posted.
Quote: Originally Posted by JayPres View Post
Strap your digital dog to your digital roof and take your ideologies, lovely wife, and sweet little 8yr old girl to a PVE server where you fit best.

Seriasx's Avatar


Seriasx
03.16.2012 , 12:44 PM | #1218
Quote: Originally Posted by venjinze View Post
'Not the case' isn't a very constructive arguement, sorry. Would you care to elaborate as to why progression in PvE and PvP is mutually exclusive?
pve - I can fight a weak dragon in bad gear and win to get moderately better gear to help me beat the next tier of dragon, I gain gear for the next dragon to kill and so on...

gear grind pvp - I have to fight everyone, some have all their gear, some dont, in order to get the gear I need to beat my opponents, many already have their gear, many are getting more geared daily and new 50? Lolol good luck, you gonna die alot before you might get some gear.


gear grinds dont work in pvp, if anything I think the real problem is that the pve in this game sucks so all these people who are currently pvping for gear would be pveing for it if it was just a little more fun.

Gadian's Avatar


Gadian
03.16.2012 , 12:46 PM | #1219
Quote: Originally Posted by venjinze View Post
'Not the case' isn't a very constructive arguement, sorry. Would you care to elaborate as to why progression in PvE and PvP is mutually exclusive?

It's self-evident from the post. Once you hit level 50, PVP progression does not inherently require you to fight players with higher stats the way PVE does.

In a true PVP progression system, you fight players with better skill (rating/ranking). Contrary to popular belief skill =/= stats.

See my post about 5 pages back on the differences between PVE and PVP (if indeed these differences are not patently obvious), and why comparing progression between the two is apples to oranges.

Cyphen's Avatar


Cyphen
03.16.2012 , 12:48 PM | #1220
Quote: Originally Posted by origional View Post
Let them quit. I'd rather those type of people were not in the game to start with. Warzones need to be competative and not all about geeks who play 24/7 and have the best gear.
Geeks? Oh god this makes your argument sound so damn stupid. The world you are looking for is ''No Lifers'' since the implication of your post would suggest being a Geek is a bad thing, which it isn't.

Although I do agree with your post, even though you do NOT need to play 24/7 to max out on gear, that is shear nonsense and totally flawed argument.

PvP should not be about gear grind but rather about your ''skill'' (whichever way you interpret that).

Although getting higher Valor Ranks could reward:
  • Vanity Modifications to your gear such as colouring and different styles (see WoW RBG 2.2L +)
  • Vanity Titles, Mounts and Pets
  • Rank Ladders

... you get the drift
Your Blood shall become the Mantle to my Victory!