Alright, I am going to be as constructive as I can, promise. In a nutshell, the class as it sits now, is not so much "broken" or "under/over-powered", but rather it sits as an over-designed, jumbled mush of poor concepts.

 

To start, I will address the notes left on the patch:

 

Designer Note: Vanguard ranged potential is currently too strong for a class that is intended to be played as a close-quarters combatant. Vanguards are melee assault specialists and should be encouraged to engage their targets in close proximity. By reducing the range of Explosive Round and High Impact Bolt, we place the Vanguard’s range potential closer to its design as a close-quarters combatant and further define their unique style in various combat scenarios.

 

I must start right off and say, that these notes show that whoever wrote them has a fundamental lack of understanding of what this class really is, nor what it is was "intended" for. Firstly, this class, was not at launch, nor recently, nor now is it, a strictly melee class. It is is THESE current devs who have slowly been attempting to force THEIR vision of this class onto the existing specs. That is not what THE CLASS was intended as originally, it is what someone is trying to force it to be now. And it simply cannot work that way.

 

Points in support of this:

-Unload, 30m range by original designers, removed by current devs

- Explosive Dart, 30m range by original designers, reduced to 10m by current devs

-Missile Blast, 30m range by original designers, reduced to 10m by current devs

-Rail Shot, 30m range by original designers, reduced to 10m by current devs

-Basic Attack, 30m range

-Death From Above, 30m range

 

You know, that is a LOT of ranged ability for a class that is supposedly never "intended" to be effective at range. It also that is a LOT of revisionism going on to try and state that the vision of the spec NOW is what the vision of the spec was BEFORE, it simply is not the case, and the claim that it was "intended" as what you change it to is simply an untrue statement and a logical fallacy. It is like taking a red apple and painting it green, and then saying that you painted it green because it was always intended to be that way, because it is green now. Uwotm8? Anyways, true melee classes have nowhere near the same amount of skills at range. This class was clearly designed as a hybrid class that could be at least somewhat effective at any range.

 

Further point:

-Jet Charge (gap closer) was only available to tanks, as tanks truly need a way to close into melee distance quickly, as Juggs have Force Leap, and Sin tank use Force Speed. This gave each tank class an effective, yet still unique way to initiate combat. It could very well be argued that DPS specs on Powertech had no such need to close a gap quickly, as they were able to initiate combat at range and pursue the enemy, closing the distance and becoming more effective as they did so. If immediate, full scale effectiveness was needed, that's what grappling hook was for.

 

Powertechs were designed to be effective at any range, starting at 30m, then gaining effectiveness as they transitioned to melee range. That is what made the class unique, that is what gave the class its' strength. Could they beat a Sniper at 30m? Weren't supposed to. You would just get in their face and beat them up. Could they outshine a Mara or Jugg at melee? They weren't supposed to. You would hit them a few times, get out, finish them at range. The key to the class was OPTIONS and VERSATILITY, not being a "master" at a particular role.

 

Another point in the notes was that Powertechs needed encouragement to get in close. Powertechs already had several incentives to close in to a target already. Close and Personal, the passive was one, as well as the fact that at 30m, a Powertech was going to be nowhere near as effective as say a Sniper, Merc, or other true ranged class. This was the way the skill trees were created, they simply were not and are not full range trees. The point was that they COULD combat at range, albeit inefficiently, and they became full potential in close quarters.

 

Which brings me to my main complaint: the most common and popular Spec for Powertechs right now (AP) simply makes no logical sense with the changes made to range. Here is a prime example: there are still 30m skills, such as Explosive Dart that WERE an integral part of the Spec, but are now redundant.

 

Here is how it used to work:

If you needed to proc your Prototype Particle Accel, you had four options, depending on your range and situation:

- If you were in melee range of 4m, you would use Rocket Punch

- If you were midrange of 10m, (or RP was on CD) you would use Magnetic Blast

- If you were at full range of 30m, you would use Explosive Dart

- Of if you were in an AoE situation in melee range, you could use Flame Sweep

 

Now, Explosive Dart is only 10m, but yet still applies to PPA. This begs the question, why? Why even bother having ED do anything with PPA? If you are at 10m, nobody is going to use ED over MB to proc PPA. That would only leave an AoE situation, which again, would be better served by a situationally superior skill, FS. Furthermore, Thermal Detonator is still at 30m, which is a core skill for the spec, which adds even more range confusion.

 

There simply is no cohesion with this class, as it is being forced by a dev team to use use specs that were never designed in the first place to work the way they want them to work, and at this point, they have such a flawed concept on their hands there is no way fix it. Instead of a versatile hybrid class that could transition into and out of any range they wanted, we are being told that we really just Maras with a gun. Sadly, the changes they have made probably won't be reversed, because reasons (pride), and they don't have the gumption to re-invent the entire spec (fanboy rage incoming if they did amirite?), so where does that leave us?

 

 

 

TL:DR

1. The devs think this class was "intended" as a melee class, it wasn't.

2. Advanced Prototype makes no sense at all with these changes.

Edited June 3, 2016 by Cortimi

ok, I have a few counters here. PT's have always been melee class to be honest. they've never truly been anything else. Many of those abilities you have listed were never a part of an AP rotation (my experience is from a PvE perspective 2.0 and after for this, so I'm going to comment from that point on.

 

1) Unload: was never in the rotation (at least since during the 2.0 phase of the game)

 

2) Explosive Dart: I've never felt any need to use this ability past level 10 EVER. It cost to much heat, and did to little damage)

 

3) Missile Blast: again not used in any AP rotation even during the 2.0 state of the game.

 

4) Rail Shot: Yes a main stay in the rotation, but honestly doesn't need the 30 meter range since you need to be closer for all of your other abilities in your rotation anyway.

 

5) Basic Attack: yes it's used often, but more due to the fact it's to keep your heat low. (range again is meaningless since your always in melee range for your primary rotation)

 

6) Death From Above: as an AoE this should be at range.

 

The whole reason this class is honestly a melee class is for 2 more points.

 

1) Your using Rocket Punch on CD for your rotation (melee move only)

 

2) Granted you got this recently, but you do have a gap closer now, so being at range should be irrelevant.

 

so the fact they are reducing the range on some abilities for PT's isn't an issue what so ever, since you should be up close and personal with your opponent anyway.

The whole reason this class is honestly a melee class is for 2 more points.

 

1) Your using Rocket Punch on CD for your rotation (melee move only)

 

2) Granted you got this recently, but you do have a gap closer now, so being at range should be irrelevant.

 

so the fact they are reducing the range on some abilities for PT's isn't an issue what so ever, since you should be up close and personal with your opponent anyway.

 

That's the problem, the gap closer was only added to the DPS classes after the fact. And since we are talking about rotations, in PvP, there are very few times where going through a fixed set of motions for 20+ GCDs is going to be possible, on any class let alone a melee class. Second, there is not even really a "set rotation" for this spec, as this one in particular follows a priority system based on heat management in GCD blocks around PPA, so there is no "reason" to remove the OPTION of using Unload as a heat dump on a target that has darted out of range so you can pop a quick ED and RS follow up. See how that synergy works? That was the point, they are a melee priority class, but the whole fun was being able to have utility at any range.

 

Taking away that ranged versatility, and then giving it a gap closer "because melee" is really a poor excuse. This class was not over-performing BECAUSE OF THE RANGE AND UTILITY, it may have been overperforming because of specific procs/skills, but not because of the fundamental role and/or nature of the class. Thus, no real reason to change it.

 

My main point is: the devs have changed the way the class plays because they have stated "it was design" which I have shown ample evidence of that being not the case. If someone then says "well itr was because overpowered", then I argue that skills and procs should have been changed, not fundamental characteristics of a class.

Edited June 3, 2016 by Cortimi

The devs did this so that they could say that they did something. I have not seen any drastic drop in my numbers. Yes, when I gap close I often do a hammer shot instead of an HiB because it still does more damage than storm (especially when you consider hammer shot comes in separate ticks each on their individual crib roles, whereas storm gets on crit role. this makes hammer shot more reliable.) So it changes the class a little bit, but if it breaks you......play an easier spec.....and it doesn't get much easier than AP/Tactics. They did it to say they did something, but it really isn't changing much of anything. A maybe 50 DPS loss in a boss fight where you end up out of 4/10/12 meters. For a competent raid group, a 50 DPS loss......well let's say for some odd reason you're running 4 Tactics VG's.....a 200 DPS loss really shouldn't cause you to wipe on enrage 9 times out of 10. If this range "nerf".....I call it a change is that big of a deal to you and it's going to break your play style, role another class. If you are questioning why they did it, lol no there isn't a good reason. They just had to find something easy to do that they can call "a big change". How easy is it to edit out 30 to 10 in a code? Very easy. 10 seconds tops. What we need to change the game is new ops not ******* story chapters. If BioWare wants to make KOTFE, make KOTFE it's own single player story. To be quite honest they'd make more money doing that. Not every Star Wars fan wants to get into an MMO, but lots of Star Wars fans want to get into a story like that. And that game they could make simply without lifting a finger. You don't really need any gear to run KOTFE as it is, so they don't need to design a gear portion of that game. I say they should go make money off of KOTFE in a new game, and make this MMO a real MMO. They are trying to pretend this is still an MMO, that's why they did it.

That's the problem, the gap closer was only added to the DPS classes after the fact. And since we are talking about rotations, in PvP, there are very few times where going through a fixed set of motions for 20+ GCDs is going to be possible, on any class let alone a melee class. Second, there is not even really a "set rotation" for this spec, as this one in particular follows a priority system based on heat management in GCD blocks around PPA, so there is no "reason" to remove the OPTION of using Unload as a heat dump on a target that has darted out of range so you can pop a quick ED and RS follow up. See how that synergy works? That was the point, they are a melee priority class, but the whole fun was being able to have utility at any range.

 

Taking away that ranged versatility, and then giving it a gap closer "because melee" is really a poor excuse. This class was not over-performing BECAUSE OF THE RANGE AND UTILITY, it may have been overperforming because of specific procs/skills, but not because of the fundamental role and/or nature of the class. Thus, no real reason to change it.

 

My main point is: the devs have changed the way the class plays because they have stated "it was design" which I have shown ample evidence of that being not the case. If someone then says "well itr was because overpowered", then I argue that skills and procs should have been changed, not fundamental characteristics of a class.

 

You did read my comments were strictly for PvE right? for the PvE priority list all of my comments are correct. As for a PvP perspective I haven't PvP'ed since 2.0 on my sorc. I found PvP a joke in this game, and don't waste my time on it, so others will have to post more accurately on that for PT's/Van then I can. I was only speaking from a PvE point of View where PT's are strictly Melee, and have been for a very long time.

ok, I have a few counters here. PT's have always been melee class to be honest. they've never truly been anything else. Many of those abilities you have listed were never a part of an AP rotation (my experience is from a PvE perspective 2.0 and after for this, so I'm going to comment from that point on.

 

1) Unload: was never in the rotation (at least since during the 2.0 phase of the game)

 

2) Explosive Dart: I've never felt any need to use this ability past level 10 EVER. It cost to much heat, and did to little damage)

 

3) Missile Blast: again not used in any AP rotation even during the 2.0 state of the game.

 

4) Rail Shot: Yes a main stay in the rotation, but honestly doesn't need the 30 meter range since you need to be closer for all of your other abilities in your rotation anyway.

 

5) Basic Attack: yes it's used often, but more due to the fact it's to keep your heat low. (range again is meaningless since your always in melee range for your primary rotation)

 

6) Death From Above: as an AoE this should be at range.

 

The whole reason this class is honestly a melee class is for 2 more points.

 

1) Your using Rocket Punch on CD for your rotation (melee move only)

 

2) Granted you got this recently, but you do have a gap closer now, so being at range should be irrelevant.

 

so the fact they are reducing the range on some abilities for PT's isn't an issue what so ever, since you should be up close and personal with your opponent anyway.

 

Your kidding about unload aren't you? I always used it with my PT tank as something to keep agro while letting heat dissipate. It was useful for both.

As for explosive dart. I use it all the time on my PT tank to do damage and also to help keep agro. Also using it on an Adv. Prototype PT/Vanguard tactics is a no brainer, it procs the cool down for rail shot very very useful in a boss fight if you need to keep some distance from the boss and still be able to some damage at the time. I myself don't understand why you wouldn't use it.

Myself I don't do much pvp but I would agree with the OP's post as it is somewhat relevant to PvE as well as PvP.

 

You did read my comments were strictly for PvE right? for the PvE priority list all of my comments are correct. As for a PvP perspective I haven't PvP'ed since 2.0 on my sorc. I found PvP a joke in this game, and don't waste my time on it, so others will have to post more accurately on that for PT's/Van then I can. I was only speaking from a PvE point of View where PT's are strictly Melee, and have been for a very long time.

 

Haven't pvp'd on your sorc in 2.0?. Does this mean that you have never played a PT/Vanguard in pve as that seems like a very strange thing to bring up in a topic about PT's/Vanguards.

Edited June 4, 2016 by GolgoXIII

Just a little correction, explosive dart retains its 30m range, they never even spoke of changing this.

This range reduction for railshot and missile blast(as if any powertech used missle blast), is one of the smallest changes they could've made, and it makes very little difference. I still think it's a shame they removed unload. But this class has always been a 10m ranged class with a rotational melee ability. And it still has some options at 30m range, at least more than the melee classes in this game, with explosive dart and spammable ranged attack, in addition to thermal detonater/incendiary missile for both dps specs respectively.

Edited June 5, 2016 by AdjeYo

Your kidding about unload aren't you? I always used it with my PT tank as something to keep agro while letting heat dissipate. It was useful for both.

As for explosive dart. I use it all the time on my PT tank to do damage and also to help keep agro. Also using it on an Adv. Prototype PT/Vanguard tactics is a no brainer, it procs the cool down for rail shot very very useful in a boss fight if you need to keep some distance from the boss and still be able to some damage at the time. I myself don't understand why you wouldn't use it.

Myself I don't do much pvp but I would agree with the OP's post as it is somewhat relevant to PvE as well as PvP.

 

 

 

Haven't pvp'd on your sorc in 2.0?. Does this mean that you have never played a PT/Vanguard in pve as that seems like a very strange thing to bring up in a topic about PT's/Vanguards.

 

Why would you use explosive dart if not at 30m range? Flame burst/sweep will outdamage it, being elemental damage and don't have any delay on them. As for unload, from a PvE perspective it was marginally useful at best. If you're in 10m range, you've got better abilities to use, making it again only useful if you have to be out of range, which makes its removal a small nerf at best. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a shame they removed it, but it never was very useful in PvE.

 

All that said, I wouldn't mind giving up charge for dps and translocate to get 30m railshot and unload back. But having charge, grapple and railshot available at 30m just makes it a little bit too good at killing fleeing opponents. (also pl0x gib shorter hydraulics cooldown, I miss the cheese )

Edited June 6, 2016 by AdjeYo

Really, it's just a quality-of-life nerf to the class' versatility.

 

I submit, however, that the core strength of both Bounty Hunter ACs has always been their versatility (obviously realised very differently between the two ACs) along with their damage + off-tanking (and/or off-healing for DPS Mercs).

 

The class is now, for me at least, noticeably less fun to play for being more generic and one-dimensional.

 

It just seems....it just seems so petty and small-minded, ya know?

 

I have no way to prove this of course, but it just says this to me, too: Spiteful and genuinely mean-spirited.

 

I've always wondered if this dev-team has historically hated Bounty Hunters of all flavours, and as time goes by, I am more and more certain that they have, and do. (How long was it before we even got an interrupt, again?)

 

What problem was this fixing, really?

 

Take the theoretical maximum possible DPS it could do, how much of that would you then do if you were outside of saaaayy...oh, I dunno, 16 metres?

 

****-all, that's how much.

 

Missile Blast? On my Ptechs, I'd use it to stop caps from range. On occasion. That's basically it after about level 15-ish?

 

Seriously, what was broken here that needed "fixing"?

 

That versatility and overall quality of life, combined with the "easy/forgiving to learn, but difficult to truly master" is to me, the sign of a truly well designed class/build/spec/whatever your game calls them, and it started decently well despite its flaws, but it's just been getting worse and worse with every patch since 2.6 (when Barrage was made non-RNG for Arsenal Mercs. That, along with class-native Jet Charge were the last really good changes either flavour of BH ever got, IMHO)...

 

I've said this many time on these boards, I'll say it again, once again sincerely wishing I didn't feel that there was a need to say it:

 

It really does seem like these devs genuinely hate Bounty Hunters, and almost always have.

 

If true, then why is this?

Edited June 6, 2016 by midianlord

Explosive dart is 30m range still btw. i saw people saying this, but knew i didnt see it in the patch notes and its not in the game. AP for example (which was the only spec that would really ever be able to dps from range i PVE) only really lost rail shot. still have thermal detonator, explosive dart, rapid shots, at 30 yards. Sure it sucks and i wish it didnt happen, but in reality its not a huge deal. As said above to do ur full dmg u need to be upclose anyway. And for pyro.....it always had to be upclose, way too many of its abilities require it.

I've always wondered if this dev-team has historically hated Bounty Hunters of all flavours.[/i]

Were you around in 3.0, where 8 BH teams were OP and the best way to take down Revan HM?

And Pyro still has Incendiary Missile. And good thing about Combustible Gas Cylinder is that Rapid Shots can trigger it. The chance is small but it's there.

Haven't pvp'd on your sorc in 2.0?. Does this mean that you have never played a PT/Vanguard in pve as that seems like a very strange thing to bring up in a topic about PT's/Vanguards.

 

No, all it is saying is that I have not PvP'ed on a PT/Vanguard so I do not know what abilities are more used during a PvP priority list or situations (others as I said may know what I do not). I've used my PT in 2.0, 3.0 and 4.0 cycles in HM raids, and for PvE the class is melee with the range (very rarely) used when your away from the boss (which with a gap closer should be never). As a PvE class it is melee and has been so the loss of the range from 30 m to 10 m (or the loss of unload) is very minor in how the class works.

Edited June 6, 2016 by Toraak

The Railshot changes did little to PVE/PVP DPS PT's. Lost some range, but that wasn't the issue in PVP. It does impact PVE tanks. Losing a key ranged, mitigation building ability tends to do that. It's not that you're losing viability, it's more of a identity thing.

 

Nerfing healing on shoulder cannon? It has minimal impact on PVP or PVE DPS. Neither rely on it for anything meaningful other than damage. As for PVE Tanks? The nerf had little impact, since it only served as a "topping off" mechanism. I'm still unclear as to why this was ever thought to be something worth tuning.

 

So...to summarize, the only meaningful (identity) change came to PVE tanks building mitigation at distance. Was this ever an issue? Or, was this a misguided attempt to impact the PVP tank in DPS gear quandry? And, to be clear, none of these changes impacted anything serious about the viability of any role/class. No problems were resolved, no change addressed it. So...what was the point? The only change I perceive was to the identity of the class.

 

As for the identity, you can argue until you're blue in the face that PT's were never meant to be anything other than a "melee onslaught specialist"...whatever that means. But, common sense tends to dispute that notion just from the list of abilities one has had since it's inception. Melee missiles and rail guns? Does that even exist? Subjectively, being able to be mobile and range in and out of a boss was part of my core tanking identity. So...just because you played the spec one way does not mean everyone did as well...or more importantly...should.

 

Did the changes impact how I tank Nim's? Not in the slightest. Does it serve as a source of constant irritation when I want to use Railshot at range? You bet your last nickel. So...if the goal was to irritate PT's tanks in Nim raids on a purely aesthetic identity change? Mission accomplished.

 

IMHO, my class was designed to be that "jack-of-all trades" magic bag of tricks Bounty Hunter who could use technology to counter those darn Jedi and their Force abilities. That technology represented a grab bag melee/ranged abilities. It's appeal was based on it's options, not it's "melee onslaught specialist" limitations. Now, it's just a run in and smack'em until they die class. It's a pale shadow of what it was for a very, very long time...

Edited June 7, 2016 by UberSamoyed

The Railshot changes did little to PVE/PVP DPS PT's. Lost some range, but that wasn't the issue in PVP. It does impact PVE tanks. Losing a key ranged, mitigation building ability tends to do that. It's not that you're losing viability, it's more of a identity thing.

 

Nerfing healing on shoulder cannon? It has minimal impact on PVP or PVE DPS. Neither rely on it for anything meaningful other than damage. As for PVE Tanks? The nerf had little impact, since it only served as a "topping off" mechanism. I'm still unclear as to why this was ever thought to be something worth tuning.

 

So...to summarize, the only meaningful (identity) change came to PVE tanks building mitigation at distance. Was this ever an issue? Or, was this a misguided attempt to impact the PVP tank in DPS gear quandry? And, to be clear, none of these changes impacted anything serious about the viability of any role/class. No problems were resolved, no change addressed it. So...what was the point? The only change I perceive was to the identity of the class.

 

As for the identity, you can argue until you're blue in the face that PT's were never meant to be anything other than a "melee onslaught specialist"...whatever that means. But, common sense tends to dispute that notion just from the list of abilities one has had since it's inception. Melee missiles and rail guns? Does that even exist? Subjectively, being able to be mobile and range in and out of a boss was part of my core tanking identity. So...just because you played the spec one way does not mean everyone did as well...or more importantly...should.

 

Did the changes impact how I tank Nim's? Not in the slightest. Does it serve as a source of constant irritation when I want to use Railshot at range? You bet your last nickel. So...if the goal was to irritate PT's tanks in Nim raids on a purely aesthetic identity change? Mission accomplished.

 

IMHO, my class was designed to be that "jack-of-all trades" magic bag of tricks Bounty Hunter who could use technology to counter those darn Jedi and their Force abilities. That technology represented a grab bag melee/ranged abilities. It's appeal was based on it's options, not it's "melee onslaught specialist" limitations. Now, it's just a run in and smack'em until they die class. It's a pale shadow of what it was for a very, very long time...

 

If you often find yourself wanting to use railshot at 30m as a tank, you're probably doing something wrong. As a tank you're nearly always supposed to be right in the boss face to be able to use rocket punch, as well as your 10m ranged abilities. So I'm not really buying the 'tanking identity' part of what you're arguing.

 

Now is it annoying when you're for some mechanics reason at more than 10m and can't use railshot. Hell yeah it is. But such is life. As for why they changed it, PT dps were a little too good at killing off fleeing targets since they got charge, and railshots can hit quite hard.

 

And Powertech tanks still retain the most options at range of any tank, whereas Powertech dps retain the most ranged options compared to their melee to mid ranged brethren.

If you often find yourself wanting to use railshot at 30m as a tank, you're probably doing something wrong. As a tank you're nearly always supposed to be right in the boss face to be able to use rocket punch, as well as your 10m ranged abilities. So I'm not really buying the 'tanking identity' part of what you're arguing.

 

 

I don't care if you buy it. I'm not selling it to you. I'm relating my experiences, and I can think of numerous examples where I'm farther than 10m and RailShot would be my #1 priority non-taunt ability. TBH...I question someone who can't envision the value of a relative high threat/mitigation building ability at range. And, as I stated in my post, it doesn't change the viability of the class. It changes the identity. I'm sorry if you can't comprehend the concept of that.

 

As for PVP PT Tanks, if you can't get out of range in 15 seconds for a second railshot, maybe you're (or your team) doing something wrong? It's not like it's an ability that can be spammed. And, that falls back on yet another point I made. The real issue there is the tanks running in damage gear that subverts the intended setup. It's clever. No doubt. But, if the Devs don't like it, perhaps there's a more effective change than shortening the range of Railshot...which does little to nothing for the problem.

 

The changes make little sense to me. They don't really change anything, other than the identity. You can disagree and that is your right. But, I made my case and I'm very comfortable with it's conclusions.

Edited June 7, 2016 by UberSamoyed

I don't care if you buy it. I'm not selling it to you. I'm relating my experiences, and I can think of numerous examples where I'm farther than 10m and RailShot would be my #1 priority non-taunt ability. TBH...I question someone who can't envision the value of a relative high threat/mitigation building ability at range. And, as I stated in my post, it doesn't change the viability of the class. It changes the identity. I'm sorry if you can't comprehend the concept of that.

 

As for PVP PT Tanks, if you can't get out of range in 15 seconds for a second railshot, maybe you're (or your team) doing something wrong? It's not like it's an ability that can be spammed. And, that falls back on yet another point I made. The real issue there is the tanks running in damage gear that subverts the intended setup. It's clever. No doubt. But, if the Devs don't like it, perhaps there's a more effective change than shortening the range of Railshot...which does little to nothing for the problem.

 

The changes make little sense to me. They don't really change anything, other than the identity. You can disagree and that is your right. But, I made my case and I'm very comfortable with it's conclusions.

 

It doesn't change the playstyle, it just changes the identity? That makes no sense, how can something that doesn't affect the playstyle change the identity? And what does identity even mean in this context?

 

And you're missing my point, railshot is a heavy hitter for the dps specs, powertechs dps are too good at chasing their opponents, reducing its range will make it harder to kill fleeing targets, because it's easier for them to outrage railshot. It has nothing to do with tanks running dps setups.

It doesn't change the playstyle, it just changes the identity? That makes no sense, how can something that doesn't affect the playstyle change the identity? And what does identity even mean in this context?

 

I said it doesn't change the viability...not the "playstyle." And, I described my perception (albeit perception is a ridiculously subjective term) of what I thought the identity was in the paragraph that started with "IMHO."

Edited June 8, 2016 by UberSamoyed

Were you around in 3.0, where 8 BH teams were OP and the best way to take down Revan HM?

 

Unless I'm very much mistaken, these were all veteran guild/pre-made groups who knew each other and how their strengths/weakness complimented each other, and had at least some experience --more probably, extensive experience, IE they knew the content backwards and forwards-- of high-end PvE?

 

In other words, the exception that does not prove the rule. That was almost certainly as much the group --IE, the players-- as the classes.

 

Yeah, 8 of anything that can all (subject to AC choice) tank, and off-tank, and heal, and off-heal, and do some pretty damned good DPS in the process is going to be OP.

 

Guess what:

 

Cheesing mechanics --which is really what this is-- is always by definition OP, no matter what/who is doing it. I'm quite sure that an "8 Sith Inquisitor" group could do the same thing..."8 Smugglers" might be pushing it (I'd think they'd want at least one real tank), but seems theoretically do-able. (Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not a progression raider...)

 

Like I said, the exception does not prove the rule.

 

And that's still not a good enough reason for what is ultimately only a spiteful and small-minded quality-of-life nerf, regardless.

 

If it was really that OP as you seem to think, then why were the raw numbers not nerfed, or the content tuned-up?

Edited June 8, 2016 by midianlord

Unless I'm very much mistaken, these were all veteran guild/pre-made groups who knew each other and how their strengths/weakness complimented each other, and had at least some experience --more probably, extensive experience, IE they knew the content backwards and forwards-- of high-end PvE?

 

In other words, the exception that does not prove the rule. That was almost certainly as much the group --IE, the players-- as the classes.

 

Yeah, 8 of anything that can all (subject to AC choice) tank, and off-tank, and heal, and off-heal, and do some pretty damned good DPS in the process is going to be OP.

 

Guess what:

 

Cheesing mechanics --which is really what this is-- is always by definition OP, no matter what/who is doing it. I'm quite sure that an "8 Sith Inquisitor" group could do the same thing..."8 Smugglers" might be pushing it (I'd think they'd want at least one real tank), but seems theoretically do-able. (Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not a progression raider...)

 

Like I said, the exception does not prove the rule.

 

And that's still not a good enough reason for what is ultimately only a spiteful and small-minded quality-of-life nerf, regardless.

 

If it was really that OP as you seem to think, then why were the raw numbers not nerfed, or the content tuned-up?

 

The point is, this composition was the best way to clear Revan. Because in 3.0 mercenary healers were preferable due to good burst and hydraulics, powertech tanks were King, due to good cheekiness and good mitigation. And then mercenary and powertech dps were doing mighty fine as well. This all makes it very unlikely that the devs "hate" bounty hunters

The point is, this composition was the best way to clear Revan. Because in 3.0 mercenary healers were preferable due to good burst and hydraulics, powertech tanks were King, due to good cheekiness and good mitigation. And then mercenary and powertech dps were doing mighty fine as well. This all makes it very unlikely that the devs "hate" bounty hunters

 

Still doesn't explain why they nerfed only QoL. What other reason is there, then, especially given their historical track-record with this class?

 

Until someone with a gold tag on their avatar comes here and says "this is why we did this," in a way that proves they actually have a clue...

Edited June 8, 2016 by midianlord

And you're missing my point, railshot is a heavy hitter for the dps specs, powertechs dps are too good at chasing their opponents, reducing its range will make it harder to kill fleeing targets, because it's easier for them to outrage railshot. It has nothing to do with tanks running dps setups.

 

Also, I'm not missing the point here. I'm holding to my main theme...and my point that you were countering. I don't agree that this scenario was an issue worth spending apparently very limited Dev resources on. So...the point here wasn't that fleeing a PT was burdensome (IMHO...it should be), it was that limited resources should have been spent on perceived gamebreaking issues that impact everyone, not a limited scenario that can be avoided with savvy individual and group planning.

bah a class with a ranged weapon like a blaster rifle or pistol is no 'melee class' even if the devs say so, or do so, and since they did, their design is flawed, not to flame just putting it blatantly. since this game already has melee classes that carry melee weapons the class with the rifles and pistols should either be full ranged or semi - ranged like before if i wanted to melee i would play a melee class now its restricted to commando / gunslinger / mercenary / sniper if u want decent range. i liked how vanguard was flexible like that where u had decent moves at range since you were carrying a rifle and had decent powerful shorter range moves that draw more power.

 

whats next are the devs gonna make snipe on operative 10m from 30m as well? lol.

 

seriously devs sorcerer / sage is whats overpowered not powertech / vanguard. but since you went ahead and did nerf vanguard / powertech im waiting for the sorcerer / sage nerf. and not just to healing either.

Pretty funny how you can tell the developers of a game how they intended to make their own game. Just because you don't like changes, or the class isn't as YOU envisioned doesn't mean that's what the developers envisioned as well. You're not a mind reader. Deal with it. Edited June 9, 2016 by Zero_Unlimited

whats next are the devs gonna make snipe on operative 10m from 30m as well? lol.

 

Not a good analogy. I'm only using snipe on conc at 4m(only in pvp) and never on lethality. And lethality has somewhat similar gameplay to Pyro and AP - the three specs have mostly 10m abilities and a rotational melee ability. Honestly I can't find any difference compared to previous patch but i've always played PT as melee mostly - if i was kiting it was in the 10m range to be able to spam magnetic blasts/flame bursts.