I guess it can't be helped with all classes sharing the same storyline, but don't you agree that the DS play has become diluted too much towards lesser evil while LS play has stayed more or less the same in KOTFE?

I'm sure many players who have been playing as DS would share the following sentiment:

My DS female sith lord had known Scorpio would betray all along and wanted to have her killed as soon as securing the Gemini prime. She would have ordered Koth executed for deserting after Scorpio had been driven back from the system of the Gravestone; she wasn't sure if Koth would betray, but would have killed him for a precaution. She knew that Senya might try to save her son and daughter, so would have left her back at the base or try to execute her if she doesn't comply.

I'm not crying about the player's power fantasy not being served on plate; I'm rather saying these actions I've listed would have been in accordance to what my DS sith lord has been acting like in her class story. If you have played as a DS Sith Inquisitor you know you are the one who usually stabs people in the back rather than the one being stabbed in the back. In KOTFE you are the one who always gets betrayed and fooled to no end. Koth sneaking into the Gravestone undetected with a full crew members of his own and taking control over the Gravestone with such a small force(or did he smuggle an army in unnoticed?) was the culmination of this tomfoolery. Senya escaping at the end with Arcann couldn't be prevented at that point so it's sits fine for me, but other misfortunes(in fact including Senya' interference from the start) could have been prevented had my character acted more like a sith lord she always was instead of a LS character with a vile tongue.

Senya reminded me of the player being able to refuse LIara from seeing her mother in Mass Effect 1. I know DS and LS options can offer nothing more than an illusion of choices due to budget reasons, but make it appear less apparent at least. Let players have an option to order Koth killed after Gravestone is back online, and let Koth overhear it through comm channel and later take over the Gravestone, blaming the player for stabbing him in the back first. This way the result is the same but at least the DS players don't feel like a wussy who is all words and no actions.

For now being a DS is all about throwing insults and killing insignificant side characters from time to time, and getting duped all the time same as LS options. It would have been OK had it been this way from the start, but the extent of evil deeds and cunning by the player in each class story was much greater.

My DS female sith lord had known Scorpio would betray all along and wanted to have her killed as soon as securing the Gemini prime. She would have ordered Koth executed for deserting after Scorpio had been driven back from the system of the Gravestone; she wasn't sure if Koth would betray, but would have killed him for a precaution. She knew that Senya might try to save her son and daughter, so would have left her back at the base or try to execute her if she doesn't comply.

Yeah, and I'm sure there are plenty of chaotic-evil SWs who would have loved to flip Baras the two-finger salute and fly off with Vette to have their own adventures, or lawful good SWs who saw the error of their ways and run off to the Jedi temple, but there simply isn't any way to program that level of freedom into a video game while still having an in-depth story the way you can with a tabletop RPG and a very skilled (and forgiving) DM who can accommodate a story that jumps the rails.

I remember a few that made a really good stab at that level of freedom, like Geneforge, but that had sprite-graphics and no voice-acting, something a dedicated and talented dev could do by themselves. Even that didn't have a lot of complex characterization, because the more time you spend adding plot-paths, the less time you spend developing the ones already there. It's a trade-off we have to accept if we want beautiful graphics and professional voice-acting.

I've only played it with a full LS JC, but I feel the same way as you in reverse... like my Light JC was forced into 'darker' decisions than she would have otherwise made. For example, my level 65 JC who was so powerful that she healed the Jedi Plague and made her own holocron and so on and so forth... are they really telling me she would just roll over and let the V-man inhabit her brain without doing anything to kick him out? All you get if you don't want him there is some very weak, half-hearted protests that you won't use his power... and then you use it anyway, whenever you need it, like at the end when Arcann tries to kill you and V's power protects you. Sorry, my JC thinks some things are more important than winning, or even living, and staying away from the Dark Side, from what V represents, is one of them.

The problem is that in KOTFE, grey side is transcendent. There are no real light or dark options, there is only grey. Think about the end of Chapter 16. If you opt to kill Arcann (twice), he lives. If you opt to save him, twice, you don't actually 'save' him... you just don't try to kill him. Your character is forced into a neutral (w/r/t LS and DS) stance in almost every chapter. This means that to a DS character, it feels like you are being 'too light,' and to a LS character, it feels like you are being 'too dark.'

This is the problem of grey side... it doesn't satisfy people who want to go Dark *or* Light.

I've only played it with a full LS JC, but I feel the same way as you in reverse... like my Light JC was forced into 'darker' decisions than she would have otherwise made. For example, my level 65 JC who was so powerful that she healed the Jedi Plague and made her own holocron and so on and so forth... are they really telling me she would just roll over and let the V-man inhabit her brain without doing anything to kick him out? All you get if you don't want him there is some very weak, half-hearted protests that you won't use his power... and then you use it anyway, whenever you need it, like at the end when Arcann tries to kill you and V's power protects you. Sorry, my JC thinks some things are more important than winning, or even living, and staying away from the Dark Side, from what V represents, is one of them.

 

The problem is that in KOTFE, grey side is transcendent. There are no real light or dark options, there is only grey. Think about the end of Chapter 16. If you opt to kill Arcann (twice), he lives. If you opt to save him, twice, you don't actually 'save' him... you just don't try to kill him. Your character is forced into a neutral (w/r/t LS and DS) stance in almost every chapter. This means that to a DS character, it feels like you are being 'too light,' and to a LS character, it feels like you are being 'too dark.'

 

This is the problem of grey side... it doesn't satisfy people who want to go Dark *or* Light.

That's not really the same thing. There's nothing you can do about having Valkorian in your head. He's stuck there whether you want him gone or not. And I got the sense that suing his power in the final Arcann fight was an involuntary reflex, not a choice the Outlander makes.

That's not really the same thing. There's nothing you can do about having Valkorian in your head. He's stuck there whether you want him gone or not. And I got the sense that suing his power in the final Arcann fight was an involuntary reflex, not a choice the Outlander makes.

Well, hardly any of it is a choice you make. That's part of the problem.

But I would argue that my pure-LS character 'reflexively' using V's very clearly dark side powers is pretty darn out of character for her, and a pretty dark episode, even if it is not a 'choice' I get to make as a dialogue option.

Again, BW made this a grey-side-only story. Even the choices you get, which are supposedly LS/DS, either are not really LS/DS choices, or if they let you make them in the convo wheel, they negate the results in a cutscene anyway.

The end result of the story progression and what your character actually does on screen, is that dark characters end up behaving 'lighter' than they should (either via cutscene or wheel choice or what have you), and light characters end up feeling 'darker' than they should.

 

But I would argue that my pure-LS character 'reflexively' using V's very clearly dark side powers is pretty darn out of character for her, and a pretty dark episode, even if it is not a 'choice' I get to make as a dialogue option.

 

My pet theory is that Valkorion not only intends nothing good, but that if we keep borrowing his power at the end of Season 3 he'll make us kill our love interest against our will.

I hope not but... that certainly would make choices matter right?

Well, hardly any of it is a choice you make. That's part of the problem.

 

But I would argue that my pure-LS character 'reflexively' using V's very clearly dark side powers is pretty darn out of character for her, and a pretty dark episode, even if it is not a 'choice' I get to make as a dialogue option.

 

Again, BW made this a grey-side-only story. Even the choices you get, which are supposedly LS/DS, either are not really LS/DS choices, or if they let you make them in the convo wheel, they negate the results in a cutscene anyway.

 

The end result of the story progression and what your character actually does on screen, is that dark characters end up behaving 'lighter' than they should (either via cutscene or wheel choice or what have you), and light characters end up feeling 'darker' than they should.

Not that I think your larger point about a overly grey story is off base, but I still don't see activating the buff Valkorian gave you to be part of the issue. The Outlander is clearly surprised when it happens. They didn't know that would happen or that they even could do that. Valkorian never specified what the "final token of his favor" was, so there's really no way they could have anticipated it.

Using the Force to create a telekinetic shield isn't Dark anyway.

For the Force-using classes (especially Sage/Sorcerer) instinctively throwing up a Force Barrier to block Arcann's lightsabre swings feels more like remembering "Oh yeah, I have the Force and I can be awesome again!"

Obviously for the tech classes, it can only be Valkorian's "gift" rather than regaining some of our old power.

Using the Force to create a telekinetic shield isn't Dark anyway.

For the Force-using classes (especially Sage/Sorcerer) instinctively throwing up a Force Barrier to block Arcann's lightsabre swings feels more like remembering "Oh yeah, I have the Force and I can be awesome again!".

Well there is that, too. Satele could do it before you even made your character up (she does it in the old promo movie of her vs. Malgus). So my uber-powerful JC should be able to do it. But, it's clearly meant to be interpreted in that cut-scene that V gave my JC that power, not that she always had it herself.

Well there is that, too. Satele could do it before you even made your character up (she does it in the old promo movie of her vs. Malgus). So my uber-powerful JC should be able to do it. But, it's clearly meant to be interpreted in that cut-scene that V gave my JC that power, not that she always had it herself.

It was my understanding that the abilities we used against Arcann were linked to the weapon we forged on Odessen with Satele and Marr. As for the first blow that got deflected, it had more to do with Valkorion protecting us than us using his power.

I guess it can't be helped with all classes sharing the same storyline, but don't you agree that the DS play has become diluted too much towards lesser evil while LS play has stayed more or less the same in KOTFE?

 

I'm sure many players who have been playing as DS would share the following sentiment:

 

My DS female sith lord had known Scorpio would betray all along and wanted to have her killed as soon as securing the Gemini prime. She would have ordered Koth executed for deserting after Scorpio had been driven back from the system of the Gravestone; she wasn't sure if Koth would betray, but would have killed him for a precaution. She knew that Senya might try to save her son and daughter, so would have left her back at the base or try to execute her if she doesn't comply.

 

I'm not crying about the player's power fantasy not being served on plate; I'm rather saying these actions I've listed would have been in accordance to what my DS sith lord has been acting like in her class story. If you have played as a DS Sith Inquisitor you know you are the one who usually stabs people in the back rather than the one being stabbed in the back. In KOTFE you are the one who always gets betrayed and fooled to no end. Koth sneaking into the Gravestone undetected with a full crew members of his own and taking control over the Gravestone with such a small force(or did he smuggle an army in unnoticed?) was the culmination of this tomfoolery. Senya escaping at the end with Arcann couldn't be prevented at that point so it's sits fine for me, but other misfortunes(in fact including Senya' interference from the start) could have been prevented had my character acted more like a sith lord she always was instead of a LS character with a vile tongue.

 

Senya reminded me of the player being able to refuse LIara from seeing her mother in Mass Effect 1. I know DS and LS options can offer nothing more than an illusion of choices due to budget reasons, but make it appear less apparent at least. Let players have an option to order Koth killed after Gravestone is back online, and let Koth overhear it through comm channel and later take over the Gravestone, blaming the player for stabbing him in the back first. This way the result is the same but at least the DS players don't feel like a wussy who is all words and no actions.

 

For now being a DS is all about throwing insults and killing insignificant side characters from time to time, and getting duped all the time same as LS options. It would have been OK had it been this way from the start, but the extent of evil deeds and cunning by the player in each class story was much greater.

my DS SI is arrogant and can be very nasty when he wants to ,generally nasty is acceptable, he has a very high opinion of himself and what he expects off others and takes traitors and useless people as ones to be killed or flogged for punishment.

For the most part up to the final final chapter, it suited him over all the storylines, he it been possible he would of had Arcann killed and Senya along with him because Senya is a traitor putting her family before her duty and arcann is just useless at the point of defeat. strictly for head canon, the c16 plot point makes no sense for my DS SI.

Sorry, my JC thinks some things are more important than winning, or even living, and staying away from the Dark Side, from what V represents, is one of them.

Honest question, if they wrote in the choice to choose to die rather than accept what offered options are available, would you take that even if it meant your character was permanently killed or locked out of the storyline and any future content?

Let's be honest, DS writing in the vanilla game was so embarassinly childish evil power-fantasy at times it's really a step-up if DS characters feel too "gentle" in KOTFE...

Except that childish evil power-fantasy can be fun. I never truly enjoy being "evil," even in a game, but I enjoy the power fantasy of it.

The issue (which is kind of their own fault) is that in the vanilla game, you were largely operating on the strength of "the system." Whether it be republic or empire. With the way KOTFE is written, it's impossible for you to have that kind of leeway, so everything is fragile and childish evil is a sure way to get yourself killed and the galaxy crushed under the heel of your enemies. In other words, they kind of wrote themselves into a corner, where the only sensible way for your character to act is with some amount of moderation.

Honest question, if they wrote in the choice to choose to die rather than accept what offered options are available, would you take that even if it meant your character was permanently killed or locked out of the storyline and any future content?

Absolutely, yes, I would take that choice, even if it meant the character had to be retired. (I would appreciate being able to move all her stuff into the legacy vault first, or perhaps having it all auto-end-up there....). I so thoroughly despise the story at this point I would not care if I was unable to continue it. In fact I am unsure that I will regardless.

Case in point.... In one of the early chapters, remember that scene where V-man freezes time, and tells you that unless you accept his power, Lana will die? I like Lana. As a player, I didn't want her to die. And at this point I still believed their whole PR shtick about 'choices have consequences.' I sat there looking at the options and thought, darn, I am going to have to play the rest of this story without Lana now if I reject his help. I know this did not happen but at this stage I honestly believed this would probably be a consequence.

I still rejected his power.

Now, we both know it had no effect, but I couldn't have known it would at the time, with all the hype about choices mattering and all... I believed I could be majorly screwing myself not just story wise but gameplay wise without this important follower. But I still did what I thought my character would do.

For all intents and purposes, Li-Ya, my only level 65 and my only character who will ever go through KOTFE, is a 'retired' character now. After all, in-character, she cannot reasonably interact with any pre-KOTFE character since that would involve time travel 5 years into the past. Meaning there is no point to doing anything else with her BUT the next story (KOTET), and as I said I don't like KOTFE and KOTET is supposed to be more of the same. So it would be zero skin off my nose to have her 'die' in game, or even be unplayable (though I would appreciate if she is not deleted outright, so I can still screenshot her and stuff before never being able to log into her again).

So yeah, absolutely... I would be willing to accept perma-death as a consequence for a story option, if that were what it took to actually be able to make the right choices for my character.