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Expertise system


JackNader

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Yes, but it doesn't have to be gear. God forbid they make war zones actually enjoyable to all people in terms of content; not forcing automatic losses 95% of the time to people that queue solo whenever they go up against a premade. Well, we don't need "teh 1337 purpz" to be the goal of PvP, either. Gear is a lame way to reward a lot of PvP, and those that truly love it are the ones that have groups to PvP with so they can win all the time. Even the the worst baddies in the world can get the best PvP gear, because it's just a grind. It also makes the playing field uneven. There are all kinds of rewards they could make that don't involve MOAR ENDRRRANCE AND XPURRTEEZ. How about, normalize all of it so it's a fair situation that depends on skill, and not which person has teh better purpz?

 

Make sick-looking armor sets that you have to PvP a ton to get. Forget stats. Make PvP even. The mechanic is already in the game, just force normalization at all levels.

 

MMORPGs need to get away from the whole "gear is all that matters" mindset. I can't stand it, and it wasn't that way before WoW came along.

 

What you are describing is essentially GW2's s-pvp. I'm not sure how popular it is these days compared to wvwvw, but I did try it some and it was decent... but the maps kinda sucked and were smaller than swtor's if you can believe it. Anyways, been a while since I tried it.

 

And I'm basically not averse to looks being the carrot. Totally fine with me, I'm just not sure its too late in swtor's game to make such a fundamental shift...?

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All in all I can't say I'm not excited about the changes, I just hope that it doesn't put us back months in the past with the huge gaps between the players. Latest gear changes brought some stability to pvp, and I wouldn't like it to change for the worse. PVP in this game is fragile, and any change should be approached with care.

 

I think this is intended to resolve the issue of players who have full sets of EWH completely dominating those in lower tiers, without necessarily needing the skill to back it up. A player fully equipped in recruit is bound to be repeatedly steamrolled by those in WH/WEH in their attempts to build a PvP set. I think the idea is to have players focused on skill, rotations, and utility, rather than depending on gear. Which means people won't actively avoid PvP because of their lack of gear. This could possibly result in greater numbers of players getting involved in PvP.

 

For those who have full EWH and are displeased at the idea of losing that significant advantage, you'll still be able to destroy those who are clueless, and yet it won't be a complete, guaranteed faceroll anymore. Meaning, you'll still have a challenge (without it, it's boring) and you'll have to use actual skill.

 

I don't think this is a bad thing, and it sounds much more stable that the current set-up.

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Try to look at the big picture. Most new players, or PVE players, feel too intimidated by the gear gap in PVP to even give it a try. This leaves the PVP population at best stagnant, or more realistically declining.

 

As Rob pointed out, PVP gear will still be superior to PVE gear in PVP. Currently, you can use your PVP gear in PVE and do fine in everything but top end ops content. The same cannot be said for PVE gear in even regular WZs.

 

Ease of acquisition is arguable with ops having weekly lockouts while warzone having no weekly caps on commendations. Crafting skews things a bit, but is not exactly a viable method of gearing for majority of player base. Either way, it's an irrelevant topic when discussing PVP balance and viability of different gear in it.

 

Your insinuation that PVE'rs would only farm mats instead of trying to win is ludicrous though, since most efficient form of farming would still be winning.

 

Exactly.

 

I have heard countless times, everywhere from general to my own guild, that many won't bother to PvP because the gap between recruit and WH/EWH is so huge, that to even bother means getting steamrolled over and over until the player can get some decent gear. Meaning, a large part of PvP dominance is attributed to gear. Many enjoy PvP from 15-49, but stop upon hitting 50 knowing this. Leaving the active PvP populations at 50 stagnant, aside from the few willing to give it a go, despite knowing they'll be largely ineffective.

 

This change helps bridge that gap - meaning, your PvP gear will still be better. This will, however, increase the number players willing to participate in PvP, they just won't be as easy killed as they are now. They'll have somewhat of a chance.

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What you are describing is essentially GW2's s-pvp. I'm not sure how popular it is these days compared to wvwvw, but I did try it some and it was decent... but the maps kinda sucked and were smaller than swtor's if you can believe it. Anyways, been a while since I tried it.

 

And I'm basically not averse to looks being the carrot. Totally fine with me, I'm just not sure its too late in swtor's game to make such a fundamental shift...?

 

I know a number of avid PvP players who left SWTOR that are in love with GW2's pvp system. Which does effectively bolster stats, making it about PvP and not entirely about gear. Isn't that the point of PvP? Strategy, skill, response timing, utility, knowing your class to prove yourself. You can still acquire better items, better gear, but the system isn't entirely dependent on gear.

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This is my first post since being subbed for over a year, and have not felt passionate enough to comment on anything that anyone has posted on the forums to date....until now.

 

From my understanding of all this, PvP gear is still BiS for PvP, but only MARGINALLY. :rak_02:

 

I think some more explanation is needed because I am utterly confused. It seems that to counter expertise, the dev's are using other stats, mainly endurance (Check Rob's post). What am I going to work for? Are you telling me that EWH is how gear is going to be from now on? +1 stat to this, +3 here. ***. I don't like trading minimal stat gains for expertise. I want to WORK my butt off in warzones and EARN my AWESOME gear that puts me in the ELITE category. And being ELITE, I want to roll over a newcomer that just beat the hardest operation in the game. That is PvP!!!!! Oh you want it to be about skill? Do the WORK and get the GEAR, and then lets do the skill game. You can't get the SKILLS without the WORK. Stop giving people that don't put in the WORK a crutch to use to be viable in PvP. Dont be lazy people....and give me my amazing stat increases on my PvP gear!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Silly - the gear, as it exists, makes skill unnecessary. Unless you're a complete failure, which is unlikely as you'd be too demoralized at that point to get the gear. So, to clarify, you want to use skill to earn gear that in turn makes skill unnecessary? PvP isn't about being able to knock everything over with minimal effort or skill. That's PvE, my friend*. The point of PvP is to go against other players, that are responsive and smarter than NPC ai (hopefully...sometimes...). It's about the challenge of defeating someone who can counter your actions. Outsmarting them, employing tactics to outmaneuver them. What's the fun in facerolling everything? It gets old, fast (we lose PvE players for the same reason). Plus, this means with all of that skill you honed, you'll have more fresh meat to grind.

 

This, because while they will receive the bolster, they still won't be as effective as someone with top tier gear. Meaning, if they beat you, you should probably be ashamed.

 

*Excepting a few Operations encounters

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This change would give me a reason to go back to PvP. I grinded out WH on my Main many months ago, and didn't bother with the EWH grind because I was solo queueing and getting facerolled by premades all day.

 

So when my 3rd toon recently hit 50 (leveled 10-50 on pvp only), I didn't want to bother with PvP after 50 because the gear gap would have made things frustrating (and being a fresh 50 healer commando, I was just a sitting duck in every situation), so I didn't bother with PvP after 50. So once this change hits, I think I can finally give PvP a shot and hopefully not get facerolled every match and have some actual skill-based combat instead of gear based.

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Silly - the gear, as it exists, makes skill unnecessary. Unless you're a complete failure, which is unlikely as you'd be too demoralized at that point to get the gear. So, to clarify, you want to use skill to earn gear that in turn makes skill unnecessary? PvP isn't about being able to knock everything over with minimal effort or skill. That's PvE, my friend*. The point of PvP is to go against other players, that are responsive and smarter than NPC ai (hopefully...sometimes...). It's about the challenge of defeating someone who can counter your actions. Outsmarting them, employing tactics to outmaneuver them. What's the fun in facerolling everything? It gets old, fast (we lose PvE players for the same reason). Plus, this means with all of that skill you honed, you'll have more fresh meat to grind.

 

This, because while they will receive the bolster, they still won't be as effective as someone with top tier gear. Meaning, if they beat you, you should probably be ashamed.

 

I honestly have gotten steamrolled at the early stages, but I paid my dues, and earned my gear the good old fashioned way. When you finally get that kill on that WH geared smash monkey and your in half Battlemaster (at the time the grind was harder than right now) it feels GREAT! What a sense of accomplishment. Ha I beat you, you better geared fool, and now wait until I get gear! This feeling will go away.

To people who quit PvP because they can't take a beating, please, don't PvP. I hate complainer's and quitters in Warzones. People ask me "Why are you still attacking the node, we lost?" I say "Never Give UP!!!!!" War is War, not meant for lazy people who want things given to them on a silver platter. Woe is this PvP community when PvE'ers get involved. I LOVE PvP against EWH geared players because I LOVE challenges. Sure, pugs are sad, but you know what, they are earning their due. Come into the higher echelon of people who've taken a beating to get where they are now, and when you stand on their head and spit at their corpse, you can laugh and feel a sense of pride and accomplishment, for not being a pansy and complaining and quitting. I welcome YOU regular PvP community, not the new PvE community integrating into PvP!!!! You never start out in the service as a general, you start as a recruit!!!!!! EARN IT!!!

Edited by Jagangla
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I really dont like the expertise system. While it is in game I think it will turn a lot of casual players off PvP and stop a lot of PvE players trying it. I have read the developer posts about expertise but I think it will take a lot to convince people new to lv 50 (or soon to be 55) to think PvP is something they can just jump in and have fun and not just be killed over and over due to being completly out geared, same goes for experianced PvE players who might want to try it.
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Expertise (and all other stats of similar bent) was implemented to prevent people in high-end raiding gear to walk in and dominate a WZ. With Expertise there's a clear definition between PvE and PvP gear - your raiding gear isn't good enough to play with the big boys.

 

With that definition though, you now had to grind twice as much if you were into both aspects of the game. Fortunately, EWH gear can substitute for most tiers of raiding gear, so you can still use your PvP gear in raids and not feel gimped.

 

The reverse doesn't hold true. PvE gear has 0 Expertise, which is the most important stat in a WZ. The new bolster system means that all but the best PvE gear will gain some measure of Expertise, allowing them compete. They're not gonna be as good as a dedicated PvPer, but they won't get repeatedly rolled either.

 

Why keep Expertise then? Because it is currently the easiest way to make sure that PvP gear is better than PvE gear without making PvP gear totally overpowered in PvE.

 

Without Expertise, the only way to make EWH better than DG is to make EWH have more stats than DG, which will then make EWH way better for PvE as well. So they introduce Expertise, which allows them to make EWH gear competitive for raids (but not the best) and DG gear competitive for WZs (but not the best).

 

That's my theory anyway.

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I understand that it takes time to do the things you love. So you want to Raid...awesome..really happy for you! Go raid and put in the time and get the gear. Oh now you wanna do some PvP too? Go out on the battlefield and earn your due. You'll get rolled at first. But you know what, maybe that separates the good from the bad. You put in the time and get the gear. People argue that "OMG im so bored I maxed out blah blah blah" Well then...stop asking for smaller gear differentials in PvP and work and put in TIME to get gear. You'll play the game longer and stop complaining about end game content. PLUS you'll become a master PvP'er and welcome death and destruction. I love death and destruction..Did I mention I love death and destruction...k just checking :D
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I understand that it takes time to do the things you love. So you want to Raid...awesome..really happy for you! Go raid and put in the time and get the gear. Oh now you wanna do some PvP too? Go out on the battlefield and earn your due. You'll get rolled at first. But you know what, maybe that separates the good from the bad. You put in the time and get the gear. People argue that "OMG im so bored I maxed out blah blah blah" Well then...stop asking for smaller gear differentials in PvP and work and put in TIME to get gear. You'll play the game longer and stop complaining about end game content. PLUS you'll become a master PvP'er and welcome death and destruction. I love death and destruction..Did I mention I love death and destruction...k just checking :D

 

It's a game, it shouldn't be work.

 

Besides, what difference does it make if some raider gets a bit of a boost in a WZ? You're in full PvP gear, you're twinked and min-maxed and optimized, you'll still roll all over his face. The bolster system in no way devalues what you've achieved - you're still in top-end PvP gear.

 

And think about the other scenario. When you've just hit 55 and are still walking around in Recruit, the bolster system means you won't get instantly wrecked by the EWHs. You'll also be benefiting from this new system, let's not forget about that.

Edited by Zakmonster
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And I still maintain that the "gear gap" is nearly meaningless as it is *now*. If you are a skilled player, it rarely matters if you are wearing recruit mk2 or war hero. If you're in a situation where you are getting smashed in 5 seconds, no set of gear in this game is gonna save you. Sadly, that situation happens a *lot* because of the OTHER more important imbalances in the game. If you are somehow in a 1v1 deathmatch in huttball against someone with an identical build and identical class... then you may have a point (and also please get out of my wz.) But otherwise, the 'gear gap' has become a straw man.

 

So go all the way... make everyone a cookie cutter. Scrap bolster completely, just put everyone in a template. Then all you people who are so worried about gear gaps will have nothing to worry about.

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Assuming we remove gear from the equation and everyone has a template, how will you allow for optimization of stats? Let's say a Commando wants less Accuracy and more Alacrity, how will that work?

 

And sure, let's make the reward for PvP to be purely cosmetic gear, or some PvE gear to make your dailies and stuff go a lot smoother.

 

The problem is that aesthetics is subjective. I still prefer the look of the Guardian legacy armor over anything else she gets at endgame (it all looks horrible). I have no faith in BW to make a set of armor that looks really nice and exclusive. Therefore, the desire to achieve these rewards might vary based on whether you personally think the gear looks nice.

 

Stats, on the other hand, is not. More stats is good, less stats is bad - everyone can agree on this.

 

Yes, the gear gap now is quite meaningless. The gear gap in 2.0 will become even more meaningless. It's not ideal, but it's a pretty good facsimile of.

 

In short, I don't really a see a problem.

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For anybody playing on the PTS, there's a bug with the bolster system right now where you can boost your stats to insane levels. I've really enjoyed the 35k+ shocks I've taken. Screenshots from the PTS forum:

 

http://oi45.tinypic.com/24nmpsp.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/54l2Kql.jpg

It is obviosly still in testing... but still that is huge, how could that happen? Makes me worry what will be missed durring testing and lead to exploits.

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Thanks for the ideas! We are actually making some changes to the expertise system and how bolster interacts with the players in an upcoming Game Update (more info on this Update coming VERY soon), and this seems like a reasonable place to reveal some details about it, so buckle up and hold on!

 

To give everyone a common base of knowledge, let me briefly discuss how bolster and expertise work on the live servers as of right now (Game Update 1.7). Expertise is pretty easy, it is a diminishing returns rating that increases the damage output against other players, gives damage reduction against other players, and increases healing on targets who are in PvP. As you get higher in value of expertise, you need more and more rating to achieve the same increase (hence, the diminishing returns). Expertise only comes on PvP items, but inside PvP expertise is designed to be better bang for your buck than normal "PvE" stats.

 

The bolster system looks at a player's level and makes an assumption of the stats a player at that level would have and increases them to a target level defined by the designers. Bolster totally ignores what the player ACTUALLY has for stats, it doesn't matter if you are naked or fully geared out, it will give you the same bonuses either way. Notably, bolster will *not* give any expertise stat in Game Update 1.7.

 

In a major upcoming Game Update, everything changes, woo! Expertise still touches the same 3 functions (damage out, damage in, and healing out), but is no longer is a diminished return value, you get the same increase in power for the same increase in expertise, regardless of going from 0 to 20 or 2000 to 2020. We've also cranked up just how much expertise enhances each of these functions, so having good expertise is more important than ever. Additionally, expertise is no longer a stat that will grow throughout a tier of items, all PvP gear will generate the same total of expertise (caveat: This statement only applies starting with the new gear in the new update. Previous PvP gear will not quite have the fully intended expertise totals).

 

The bigger change is in how we bolster and add stats to players to even out the playing field. Instead of focusing on player level, now the bolster system will take a look at each individual item on your character and use that as the baseline assumption of power for that item slot. We then bolster each slot up to what we feel is the "entry level" of PvP power, at which we think everyone can be happy playing without getting simply out geared to death. Effectively, we bolster players to something like what our recruit gear set tries to do now in 1.7, but with much better accuracy and effect. Additionally, the bolster system will now grant players expertise when it feels it is necessary, bringing our entry-level power gap even closer to the end-game PvP power.

 

 

All of this put together should make our Warzone matches much more about skill in this future game update, and less about people who simply aren't in the correct gear, while still giving our PvPers some better gear out there to strive for.

 

Thanks for listening!

 

and yet expertise still doesnt work outside of warzones

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Assuming we remove gear from the equation and everyone has a template, how will you allow for optimization of stats? Let's say a Commando wants less Accuracy and more Alacrity, how will that work?

 

He's sol. That way it's all fair and everyone's equal. Isnt that what everyone wants?

 

i suppose you could have a couple templates for each class, you can choose, like healer or dps template for your sorc, or whatever. But the whole point is that there is no customization of stats at all. Even out that playing field... those who want to take the time to learn the system and grind out a better set up need not apply.

 

Which is where this road leads. If you dont have a problem with it, cool. i dont *really*, except that's not what I started playing swtor pvp for. I signed up expecting there to be differences in gear, along with all the other differences in a warzone. There's other games that go the template route, including your basic console fps shooters, and i dont particularly care for them. This homogenization of players makes for a boring game, imho. But if that's what will stop the hue and cry about a gear gap, then, so be it....

 

Get it out of the way, then maybe they can address some of the *actual* issues.

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Yeh, I dont really see this change making much, if any, difference to the ENJOYMENT level of warzones.

 

 

Lets face it, at the moment bolster works fine 10-49. People that put in the effort to twink get a minor advantage but that advantage is nothing in comparison to simply being high level and having all your skills!

 

At level 50, there is no bolster, only a gear gap. There is a gear gap between recruit and war hero, accentuated by the fact that most newbies dont augment their recruit gear. However, a week of grinding warzones and you are in full war hero gear and the gear gap is gone. EWH is barely better than WH. So basically, at 50 there is no gear gap.

 

The primary problem at 50 is the short time-to-kill that people experience in pug warzones. Newbies attribute this to a massive gear gap but that is simply not the case. EVERYONE suffers from low TTK regardless of gear. What this means is that for new / bad players, the amount of time actually *playing* i.e. having fun is extremely short because they die so quickly. Combine that with CC and new players just dont have fun.

 

 

So, whilst I think having a flat expertise value across all sets is a good thing, it isn't actually going to address the core issue regarding new pvpers having fun. They will still get stomped because TTK is very short, they will still blame it on gear because there will still be gear differences and they wont have fun so they wont continue.

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I don't want to benefit from this system, I want to have to have fun getting wrecked and wrecking. If I benefit from this system, that means the highest tier is....nothing to shoot for. You say it's a game not work. I guess in Skyrim no one had to put in the time to get to max level. I don't understand, it's a game when it levels and such. If you don't like work, then I bet you never do dailies, b/c thats surely WORK!!!!! Ridiculous, you pick and choose in a game what is work and what is not. Getting rolled while earning your gear is work? Dont play it. Please quit...please for my sake unsub. Im becoming annoyed at people thinking it's an awesome idea b/c simply they are too lazy and dont pay thier dues. I could yell all day that no one starts out as a general, but as a recruit, and no one cares. They want to be insta god mode. GROW UP And if you don't like it UNSUB or dont PvP. Not like we cant find people to PvP anyways, the real soldiers of the game. The ppl who put in the time and effort. Edited by Jagangla
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