So what does everyone think have they got it right? Or are you like me and think for the most part *** this is meant to be hard mode?

 

First of all I am not some super serious raider so I would think that HM ops should provide some challenge for the likes of me but for the most part the newly levelled ops seem super easy so far

 

EV and KP are just a bit of joke. What they have scaled them to seems more like it should be a story mode. I mean they were never that hard at launch, apart form the bugs on SOA, but what they have given us is just wow I mean e.g. foreman crushers frenzy is a complete joke.

 

EC this seemed about right tbh

 

TFB poor tfb this is just a complete faceroll as well

 

S&V complete faceroll until Styrak

 

DF didn't think it was too far off maybe a little easier than it should be but not bad

 

DP love raptus he hits hard actually have to heal yay for Raptus

 

Ravagers oh my god poor bulo is he too drunk to hit now? I mean had tanks pointing him all over the place and was lol easy to heal, did they forget to buff torque at all . Yay for M&B that hits the tanks hard

 

I mean they stated their aim was to always keep all ops relevant but is doesn't seem like they have achieved this.

 

So do you guys agree should they buff some of the HM content to keep it relevant and fun to do for the future? As at the moment its getting old fast because of how easy it is.

 

Oh and I know we can run the Nims for now but since they said there will be no new nims ever I think its important they pitch the difficulty of the HM ops properly. And as I stated I was never a hard core raider so I am not someone who used to clear nims within a week of release if ever

 

Ducka and takes cover

Yup, TFB and SAV are really easy except the last bosses which just need a bit of gear to beat the DPS checks like they did when they were new.

Haven't done DF, DP or EC.

We did Sword Squadron and failed cos of too many melee but it seemed easier than before. Our tank did SS, and Lurker in a pug but they couldn't get past Revanites. The last phase might have been buffed a bit.

Edited November 10, 2015 by DarthZaul

Numbers likely weren't properly tuned, though I'd say they're in a good-ish spot for first timers going from SM to HM ops - which was likely the design goal. this entire expansion is being made for the flood of casuals that may come with the movie release.

Hm ops feel about like they did on level with the top tier gear at the time...

*offers a 25 yo single malt to WheresMywhisky*

 

EV and KP are by far the worst offenders, we cleared them undermanned with half geared people. I mean, LOL!

 

But yeah, if I compared how Rav and ToS felt at launch and for months after with the upscaled ops...different worlds altogether.

 

Already knowing the mechanics instead of having to figure out how things work best for you makes a big difference of course but it's not just that. Styrak was the only boss we've done so far where we could say: yep, we need more dps. We haven't tried DF, DP and Rav yet, but so far the only one that felt like a true hardmode challenge was EC. And I can't stress enough how so *not* hardcore we are lol

i had the same impression, pugged a bit around since GM's upset with going rav/tos undergeared..somehow i agree that knowing the mechanics helps a lot, but the only dps check i've met is styrak, and most probably it's a gear check..

can't wait to try again rav or dp but if they are like the others the first bosses will be a breeze..and btw this would have been a great time to release nim rav/tos, i hope they stop with solo crap for a while to deliver a solid ops.

 

anyone tried monolith or TC HM?

anyone tried monolith or TC HM?

 

TC HM felt good. After 2 pulls we did scoundrel cheese strat since it was the end of the night but doing actual mechanics seemed tuned appropriately.

S&V complete faceroll until Styrak

 

DF didn't think it was too far off maybe a little easier than it should be but not bad

 

DP love raptus he hits hard actually have to heal yay for Raptus

 

Ravagers oh my god poor bulo is he too drunk to hit now? I mean had tanks pointing him all over the place and was lol easy to heal, did they forget to buff torque at all . Yay for M&B that hits the tanks hard

Styrak: Gear/dps check, mostly gear. 3 geared dps can carry it altogether, for carrying drunk guys on off-toons we grabbed one more dps instead of a tank.

 

DF? Well, in old 198 gear it was _somewhat_ hard to take just one person not carrying his weight properly. In new 216 set is a joke.

 

Raptus? Not even close to healing. I mean... How is it "yay, have to heal"? I see nothing in common between healing like on future portal in first phase of Calph, where you get to put ****ton of offdps and some hps in between (I sat at 5k-ish ehps and 1k dps) to kill dem add, and "healing" on Raptus where all you need to do is like channel innervate in tank at 90+ % hp and keep bubbling him on cd? Or something like that? It's purely a tank gear/coordination check as of now. Even healing 'challenge' can be soloed without too much effort.

 

M&B - same. It's mostly a tanking gear / overall coordination check. Apparently somewhat hard, appears even harder than was in 3.*.

 

Overall feeling? Yep, too easy. Feels like a big letdown, like, why raid at all if NiM doesn't even drop 224 and HM is steamrollable.

Personally, I think they got scaling all wrong. Given the fact they've almost completely redone stats since 1.0 (back when alacrity just gave increased resource regen and we still had crit/surge) it is pretty impossible to make the likes of anything pre DF feel on level again. I was personally hoping they would scale the players down to content level, back to the good old days where 25k hp was considered too much to take.

Another big problem with gear is in every expansion we had different gear levels dropping, for example EV and KP would drop Columni which was needed to stand a chance in EC. Then in 2.x we had Arkanian gear drop in story mode across all operations that expansion, but a gear divide between tfb/sv and df/dp for hard mode.

Also you have to consider tactics, I'm sure a lot of players that say the difficulty check isn't there already have extensive knowledge of how the fights work and have done them all a hundred times already.

Also you have to consider tactics, I'm sure a lot of players that say the difficulty check isn't there already have extensive knowledge of how the fights work and have done them all a hundred times already.

The only operation that was scaled for good was ToS HM, no matter what Revanchists are crying now.

 

How difficulty levels should work given you have three tiers:

1) SM - You literally have your hand guided, with big red letters on the screen, very informative debuffs, circles like on Nefra and so on. However, following them or not is up to you. Player should feel involved and in actual need in responding to mechanics (i.e. running out of red circles), but not in a very punishing way. Instakills are unfun as you lay dead for the rest of the fight, but you should feel motivated not to do such mistakes. Significant (~30% max hp) hits and loss of control (stuns, roots, 'silence' effects) work just perfect. You play the game to see cool animations of your character looking good and kicking ***es, and being stunned is a perfect way to tell you "if you keep staying in big red circles, no fun for you for a while!".

At the same time, it should be encouraging and certainly not leading to wipes to obfuscated reasons like lack of dps. Good team killing bosses notably fast is a good practice (provided by bosses are not too rewarding credits/gear wise). It's better to see boss being down in 2 minutes instead of 3 when you all improve your dps than when timer goes from 8 to 7. Lurker was a design flaw, but that's partly because there were only 2 tiers, and they mixed somehow.

Basic coordination checks should start on SM as well (assigning people, group leading basics).

2) HM - intermediate setting. At that point casual raider (a little bit of emphasis on raider here) should get the feeling it's a skill cap for him at which he's still feeling comfortable. You need to pull _some_ numbers and know game basics a bit and how stuff works, instakill mechanics start instakilling sometimes and so on. NOTE - complete removal of the mechanic on SM does NOT work. E.g. Machine Heartbeat should've pushed and pulled people couple of steps here and there on SM so they wouldn't be killed by just anything but they'll get the idea of how stuff works. Same goes for puzzles on many bosses. Certain mechanics can be NiM-only if there's NiM to not overcomplicate first experience, however. Main idea is to give people somewhat casual raiding where they stay involved and have to do some actual tasks but performance can be loose. That's also questionable but I think enrage timers should be a thing from HM on, there's no need in them in SM.

3) NiM Finally, less casual raiding requiring some finesse in execution, knowing classes, synergy, good coordination etc. 3.0 HM tier would make a pretty good NiM tier was there 1 more considerably hard boss.

 

What we have instead:

1) SM - I'll just leave my cat to walk over keyboard and farm me tokens. That's not hand-guiding, that's nerfhammering like you're a drummer in Dethklok and there's no tomorrow for this game. No involvement, nothing. Not that anyone would care for you if you get lost or die. You simply do not matter. Encouragement to do harder content? Hell yes, if you're new to raiding in the game and seeking challenge.

2) HM Danger! Hammer just got loose and approaching your face! Holy Maker! Oh... I... Didn't mean that... Sorry *turns away sobbing and terrified*.

You come to HM and besides no bolster and a whole bunch of new mechanics NOT being introduced to you at all (3rd phase on Calph... Some floating orbs on Op9... What is this all about?..) you get a HUGE slap in your face by numbers. Apparently those cute droids from DF SM hitting for 3-6k with their red circles KILL, tentacles in TfB KILL (even tanks if they are stupid and healers sleeping), Raptus KILLS, Calphayus... I better just don't mention THAT guy again, ok? Ugh.

Tunneling Malaphar KILLS, everything on Squadron KILLS, Lurker SLOWS and KILLS, adds on mander KILL, Revan... Da*** is all this??!!

 

Bottom line: for a new guy in the game, merely stepping into HM unleashes the reign of TERROR PAIN ANGUISH HORROR AND DEATH upon him, and... Well, would I come to the game after 4.0 to see what is it like or what it has become and not having friend by my side/extremely strong resolve for the unknown purpose, I'd just quit. Immediately. Unless really bored with everything else and seeking extreme challenge.

Hold your #gameishard giggles to yourselves, for a guy who sees it for a first time that'd be really frustrating and in over 90% of cases turning him down from further trying. That is a huge chunk of bad game design.

 

3) NiM Huh, I survived HM (hell if i know how!), got some gear, but I bet in NiM you just get oneshotted unless you have over9000 APM, perfect reaction et cetera et cetera. Still, I've gotten tough as nails getting into all that hardcore raiding, let's see who are the real gods claiming game is easy and try NiM...

 

What? Is that it?!

 

Right. Another disappointment. It is only a tiny bit more punishing than HM. Harder, more mechanics, yes, but if you undertook a big step before, rushed to HM and prevailed, next step is going to be much much smaller as top tier is accessible for everyone who feels cozy in HM and with current scaling you're either rolling through HM just like it's SM (EV/KP, for an instance) or hitting the wall until one of you two breaks. If you win (presuming you started raiding in 4.0 for the first time), getting into NiM should feel like a piece of cake with a cherry at the top. Oh wait, no cherry (and that's another problem!).

 

At least that's how it looks from where I sit.

The whole point of the post was to see if other peeps thought the HM raids were severely undercooked as well and that's seems to be the case so far

 

As lodnin has pointed out the complete annihilation of any challenge in sm to the point where just like the story you pretty much need to just turn up to get gear does not help although at least in sm ops you need to actually use some abilities and not just let your companion just do it for you.

 

Lodnin the yays were just because undergeared tanks meant I actually had to pay attention and not just dps 75% of the time instead of healing but I agree once gearied will be lol easy as well.

 

What scares me is if I find it this easy and I am just a casual raider, I really feel sorry for the really good players as they must be bored to death already

 

Also I do feel let down by the fact they said all the old ops would become a challenge again but how can that be when even casuals like me are running EV HM as 16 man with 8 so we get more 224 gear I mean that's not much of a challenge if we can do that right? (and tbh I never expected ev or kp to provide much of challenge its the rest that make me sad)

Edited November 12, 2015 by WheresMyWhisky

i saw people so undergeared that some mechanics in EV oneshotted them, and still it was possible to clear it with zero wipes. why that joke gives best possible MH is beyond my comprehension.

Soa is so horribly undertuned that it stopped being funny anymore. You can 5 man 16m HM Soa with basic gear!

He could at least have a meaningful enrage or maybe an enrage on phase 2 added?

Compare that to Styrak who requires ~25k Raid DPS to beat the enrage in 8m and you know that tuning is all over the place.

 

Well at least you now have so many different difficulty levels on the HM bosses from EV to Ravagers that you have a training ground for almost all levels of players. The main Problem is though, that there is (and can't exist) no guideline that shows you in what order to progress up the difficulty scale, as that varies a lot even within the same operation.

 

No matter what the intent behind the tuning was, I'm sure BW will have to do a lot of retuning to evenget close to their goals.

Edited November 13, 2015 by meisterjedi