Ah no don't worry, it's just so easy to get heated up on the internet lol, sorry. Internet is such a blessing and a curse.

 

True, I made assumptions about you as well and that's on me, sorry for that, that was my mistake.

But since Jackie said that the h+4 is not part of the weekly I think it's good for everyone right? The H+4 will give blue rep token which will make reputation grind faster but isn't part of the weekly for the shard as far as I understand.

 

I thank you for understanding.

 

Oh, you'd be quite right about that The internet can be a source of happiness and just about everything else too. No worries about anything at all. Casira pointed out to me, that I'd still be able to participate and earn things, and while I like to see everything once, I suppose I can live without a heroic 4. Maybe once I get decent enough gear, I'll take a go at it, if I can cajole the hubby into playing again lol.

Now I do wonder, if you can alt grind the reputation things? Or once I've ground them on my main, that'll be it for the week, or whatever.

Oh, you'd be quite right about that The internet can be a source of happiness and just about everything else too. No worries about anything at all. Casira pointed out to me, that I'd still be able to participate and earn things, and while I like to see everything once, I suppose I can live without a heroic 4. Maybe once I get decent enough gear, I'll take a go at it, if I can cajole the hubby into playing again lol.

 

Now I do wonder, if you can alt grind the reputation things? Or once I've ground them on my main, that'll be it for the week, or whatever.

Reputation have a cap Luna but from what I've seen on the PTS it is a pretty high cap as I was able to do 3 characters and reach the first rank and was still able to do more. Not sure how far you can go as I didn't play again for awhile on PTS but it is legacy wide.

So to clarify our design goal a bit more, we will still have [Heroic 2+] missions on Ossus. There will be just 1 [Heroic 4] Mission.

 

The plan is not to force anyone to play the [Heroic 4] Missions, it's to provide an option for people who want to play group content. There will still be soloable [Heroic 2+] Missions. The heroics are also not a part of the dailies/weekly's that give masterwork shards so playing the heroics is not needed to obtain the higher tiers of gear. There is a Weekly Heroic Mission that will require players to complete 3 Heroics in a week, but the players are free to choose whichever Heroics they want to complete. You can in fact complete the same Heroic Mission 3 times to complete the Weekly Heroic Mission.

 

Thanks

 

Nice to see more people from Dev team on forums!

 

-Jackie

As long as the Heroic is meant for 2 ppl with companions and CAN BE soloed by a 252 skilled player im fine with it

Following the most recent update, the daily heroic Hold the Line is still extremely overtuned and impossible to solo.

Not really behold.

Hey everyone,

 

I’m Jackie, one of the world designers working on Ossus. I’ve been reading feedback on the Ossus Daily Missions and have seen concerns about balancing for Heroics (such as the above quote). I want to clear up any confusion and highlight the design goals we have for them.

 

For Ossus, we want to have some more difficult content that encourages group play, something to add variety among the soloable content we have. To achieve that goal, we’re reintroducing [Heroic 4] Missions which some of you may remember from the base game. These are Heroics that will be balanced for 4 players or 2 players and 2 companions. [Heroic 4] Missions are not designed to be soloed. Players who obtain higher tiers of gear or who are higher skilled may be able to clear them solo with a companion, which we are fine with.

 

We appreciate the feedback given so far, so keep it coming! Be sure to include in your feedback how many players and Companions were in your group, the level of your Companions, and the groups gear level.

 

Thanks everyone.

 

-Jackie

Here is some feed back. In this video I am playing sent combat spec bis 248 with Z0-OM in heal soloed it with not many issues so I think it's under tuned if you expect it to not be soloed in that gear level.

For Ossus, we want to have some more difficult content that encourages group play, something to add variety among the soloable content we have. To achieve that goal, we’re reintroducing [Heroic 4] Missions which some of you may remember from the base game.

Thanks for explaining this (and your subsequent clarifying post). As a founding player I do actually remember old heroics. Since I prefer to play solo, I liked them being made more soloable, but I don't mind some old-style more difficult heroics being reintroduced. When I've got to group, I group (like for the Rakghoul Tunnels heroic).

One question I do have is whether the Imperial equivalent (or at least what looks like the Imperial equivalent), Supply Heist, is meant to provide the same level of difficulty as Hold the Line does for the Republic. For me, Supply Heist was a doddle. This made me assume the Hold the Line was going to be brought down to the same level of difficulty, but now I wonder if Supply Heist is instead going to be raised to the difficulty of Hold the Line?

Not really behold.

Perhaps you've forgotten my username, but we interacted on this subject on a different thread a few days ago. You've already shown off to me plenty.

Anyway, I managed to solo it with my sage healer main since then, using different tactics (mainly kiting and using every available consumable). All in all, I'd say it'd be a lot quicker and more fun in a group, so I think that's what I'll tend to do.

Ah no don't worry, it's just so easy to get heated up on the internet lol, sorry. Internet is such a blessing and a curse.

 

I didn't say you are wrong just because I disagree with your sentiment. Hell, I could be wrong, that's why we are talking right? I can only say what I believe but that doesn't mean I am right.

As you stated to Luna above, things do tend to get heated on the internet. I am generally a lurker, who at this point, has a lot of pent up frustrations. I think you are catching some of that, and for that, I apologize too. I'll see if I can't control that a little better.

I was just saying that solo players shouldn't be rewarded as highly as people who do challenging group stuff. You came across to me like you didn't care why an MMO shouldn't be that afraid to give gentle pushes towards casual group stuff.

I do happen to be one of the few solo players who disagree with your first point, but it is one I am willing to concede for the sake of the community as a whole. My primary draw to the game is the story, which I enjoy immensely. I need nothing more than that to continue to play the class story and the expansions over and over again. I can create new characters with new personalities to play, which keeps the content fresh and interesting. The replay-ability for me there has so far been unending. The dailies and the heroics are a break for me from that when I am too tired to engage with story, and just want to zone out. But in order for me to gain any real sense of fulfillment or accomplishment from them, I need to have some sort of feeling of progression. I get that through CXP gain, and the slow process of upgrading my armor. But, the dailies and heroics are at this point, mindnumbingly boring. Much like my job, they are only worth doing if I'm getting a decent paycheck.

To your second point, I am all for the game providing incentives to draw people in to try out the content they haven't played yet. Make the incentives big, make them desirable, and make them take enough time so that new players can really get a feel for flashpoints, PvP, Operations... so the players can really start to understand whether they enjoy that content or not. What I take issue with is when the 'incentive' becomes a push that creates a requirement to engage with content that a player already knows they do not want to do, as they did with Oricon and Iokath, and as some of us were afraid might be happening with these new H4's.

I suggested a break because it appeared like this one 4+ heroic was enough to make you basically skip everything of Ossus, because of one h4. That made it appear to me like you were in a strained relationship with the game.

A requirement to group would be enough to keep me from running through the Ossus dailies. I probably would have done the soloable dailies once or twice, and then never set foot in them again. That would have been a huge disappointment, because I have been looking forward to having a new daily area to learn and add to my rotation. But not being able to enjoy the new content does not change my enjoyment of the old content.

I am very happy that the H4 will not be a requirement to complete the weekly, and I do really hope that they can come up with ways to create incentives for people to do them, that do not end up penalizing those that choose not to.

Reputation have a cap Luna but from what I've seen on the PTS it is a pretty high cap as I was able to do 3 characters and reach the first rank and was still able to do more. Not sure how far you can go as I didn't play again for awhile on PTS but it is legacy wide.

Ok, good to know, thanks! I've just been tinkering around with the one and haven't really had as much time to tinker as I'd like. Might be an experiment for the weekend.

I would like to draw your attention to a recent dev post by the person responsible for the new Heroic content coming in 5.10:

 

It cannot get any clearer than that.

 

And did you miss my direct response where my first point is that the devs themselves have gotten confused over the years (as it's almost certainly not the same devs now...)

Tell me this, if H4s have always been 2+2, what influence level do I need on my companion to press the right buttons on the H4 Macrobinocular quest? (and I believe the original Section X H4 was the same way, before changes)

There isn't, of course, which means that those H4s cannot be 2+2s. It cannot get any clearer than that.

And where does this leave H2s? Are you claiming H2s have really always been meant to be 1+1s? But that makes no sense, because nothing else is done like that. Other than starter planets, you're always assumed to have a companion out for solo content--some random guy gives you a quest on Tatooine to kill 10 Tusken Raiders, it's not a "Quest 2" it's just a quest, why would a solo heroic suddenly start counting companions?

As I recall, Esseles was originally listed as a "Group 2" and hopefully we can all agree that this was not something intended to be soloed at launch--so "Group 2" means two players, but "Heroic 2" means one player?

It seems to me that your best-case scenario is that Heroic missions suddenly take on a completely different numbering system from the rest of the game, where "2" means solo, and 4 sometimes means 2 players, or sometimes 4 players, but you don't know which one it is unless you play through it or have read spoilers beforehand.

My argument is that H2/H4 has been confusing terminology for years now, we've finally gotten rid of it other than a couple historical artifacts, and we should not go back to the bad old days where everyone is having the same argument we're having now.

This is a dev team that changed the name "Tactical" to "Veteran" because they thought "Tactical" was too confusing for players, yet they're OK with H4s that sometimes mean 2+2, sometimes require 4?

And did you miss my direct response where my first point is that the devs themselves have gotten confused over the years (as it's almost certainly not the same devs now...)

Wow.

Discounting a dev post because they're not part of the original team, and have "gotten confused over the years".

This is ... going to be a hard sell, I see. Whelp, I'll give it a try <cracks knuckes>

Okay:

Tell me this, if H4s have always been 2+2, what influence level do I need on my companion to press the right buttons on the H4 Macrobinocular quest? (and I believe the original Section X H4 was the same way, before changes)

You are absolutely correct in that these two H4s required 4 players to complete. But I've a few comments on this:

1. These are the only two heroics in the entire game like that.

2. These were added 11+ months after launch, so they weren't part of the original H4 design.

3. They require 4 people not because of combat balance, but because of puzzles.

That last one deserves a bit more attention. I entered this conversation when you claimed that the devs had "balanced" H4s for four players. In response to concerns about combat difficulty of an H4. Bringing up an out-of-combat puzzle that requires 4 clicks on a panel is not talking about "balance".

And where does this leave H2s? Are you claiming H2s have really always been meant to be 1+1s? But that makes no sense, because nothing else is done like that. Other than starter planets, you're always assumed to have a companion out for solo content--some random guy gives you a quest on Tatooine to kill 10 Tusken Raiders, it's not a "Quest 2" it's just a quest, why would a solo heroic suddenly start counting companions?

First, please recognize that what I'm about to say is opinion. I'm not (unlike your post I had an objection with) pretending to know what lived on the actual design documents of the game.

Planetary leveling, as far as non-heroic combat encounters go, appears to be tuned to be completely doable without a companion at all. I posited this theory to another player years ago, and then decided to actually test my theory to see if I was right.

"Heroic" is different. It implies more difficult content. H2+ is suggesting that it's balanced around two OR MORE participants in combat. Meaning that a player + companion will find it challenging. But adding more will make it easier. Do you remember running H2+ with two players plus two companions? It didn't feel challenging. Things died quickly and your health didn't drop much. So it feels to me like it was "balanced" to "feel heroic", if you could accomplish it with a player + companion.

Similarly, H4 is suggesting that it's balanced around four participants in combat. While a companion was less powerful than a player (until patch 4.0 at least ), two players plus two companions, if well geared, and if the players were moderately skilled, could tackle H4s.

Flashpoints are different. Surely you don't think that combat in an H4 is comparable to a boss fight in a flashpoint? A companion cannot be ordered to move away from the group to drop an LR-5 energy coil. A companion cannot pull Prototype B-16 out of A-14's energy shield. A companion doesn't notice the Prophet of Vodal's Crushing Affliction and cleanse it.

All of these things were "balanced" around 4 actual players who can observe the combat mechanics and engage.

And for what it's worth, during the early days of playing this game, while I could do H4s with a friend plus our companions, actual flashpoints played at level were too difficult for us, and we had to bring along two other real players to succeed.

As I recall, Esseles was originally listed as a "Group 2" and hopefully we can all agree that this was not something intended to be soloed at launch--so "Group 2" means two players, but "Heroic 2" means one player?

Story Mode Esseles was unlike the other flashpoints in that had very very few mechanics in them. Remember that level 10 players wouldn't have many unlocked skills (such as interrupts). As a point of fact, it was not uncommon for players to run solo + companion through SM Esseles, during the 1.x days. It was more difficult than an H2+, but it was easier than an H4.

At the time, I certainly wasn't skilled enough to succeed in a solo at-level H4, but solo Esseles at level 10 was doable (albeit quite challenging).

My argument is that H2/H4 has been confusing terminology for years now, we've finally gotten rid of it other than a couple historical artifacts, and we should not go back to the bad old days where everyone is having the same argument we're having now.

Sure, I can agree with that.

The fact that we're arguing about this is a testament to the fact that it is unclear.

Oh, you'd be quite right about that The internet can be a source of happiness and just about everything else too. No worries about anything at all. Casira pointed out to me, that I'd still be able to participate and earn things, and while I like to see everything once, I suppose I can live without a heroic 4. Maybe once I get decent enough gear, I'll take a go at it, if I can cajole the hubby into playing again lol.

 

Now I do wonder, if you can alt grind the reputation things? Or once I've ground them on my main, that'll be it for the week, or whatever.

Hei, sorry for my late response.

And yea, internet is amazing and in hindsight it's like only 20 years old and yet it became a part of all our daily lives. Always mind blowing when I think about it. Yea, I think overall this way, to have heroic 4 not part of the weekly for the shard but have it as part of another weekly for reputation is the best way.

Now, I am still waiting for the day when we can earn tunings in-game. At least some basic onces that gives a tiny bit of animation.

As you stated to Luna above, things do tend to get heated on the internet. I am generally a lurker, who at this point, has a lot of pent up frustrations. I think you are catching some of that, and for that, I apologize too. I'll see if I can't control that a little better.

 

 

 

I do happen to be one of the few solo players who disagree with your first point, but it is one I am willing to concede for the sake of the community as a whole. My primary draw to the game is the story, which I enjoy immensely. I need nothing more than that to continue to play the class story and the expansions over and over again. I can create new characters with new personalities to play, which keeps the content fresh and interesting. The replay-ability for me there has so far been unending. The dailies and the heroics are a break for me from that when I am too tired to engage with story, and just want to zone out. But in order for me to gain any real sense of fulfillment or accomplishment from them, I need to have some sort of feeling of progression. I get that through CXP gain, and the slow process of upgrading my armor. But, the dailies and heroics are at this point, mindnumbingly boring. Much like my job, they are only worth doing if I'm getting a decent paycheck.

 

To your second point, I am all for the game providing incentives to draw people in to try out the content they haven't played yet. Make the incentives big, make them desirable, and make them take enough time so that new players can really get a feel for flashpoints, PvP, Operations... so the players can really start to understand whether they enjoy that content or not. What I take issue with is when the 'incentive' becomes a push that creates a requirement to engage with content that a player already knows they do not want to do, as they did with Oricon and Iokath, and as some of us were afraid might be happening with these new H4's.

 

 

 

 

A requirement to group would be enough to keep me from running through the Ossus dailies. I probably would have done the soloable dailies once or twice, and then never set foot in them again. That would have been a huge disappointment, because I have been looking forward to having a new daily area to learn and add to my rotation. But not being able to enjoy the new content does not change my enjoyment of the old content.

 

I am very happy that the H4 will not be a requirement to complete the weekly, and I do really hope that they can come up with ways to create incentives for people to do them, that do not end up penalizing those that choose not to.

Hei, also to you, sorry for my late response.

And don't worry, I do understand you completely regarding having pent up frustration. I took a year break so that's why I appear fresh and positive. Nah, but I totally get you and I am no different either. I get heated up quickly in discussions, especially on the internet it's too easy to let loose of all your emotions. It's the curse of the internet somehow. It's an amazing thing, to be able to connect and talk to people who live on the other side of the planet. But it's also a curse to be able so. It can bring out the worst of us.

We don't have to worry about consequences, we can say the most despicable things to each other and yet nothing will ever happen to us and we also don't have to deal with guilt since we don't have to look each other in the eyes when saying that. It's honestly insane to me when I think abou ***.

I do however, now thinking more about it, agree with you on your statement regarding push/incentive. I think it's the hardest to balance it in a way to motivate players but also don't force them. I don't know how to do it the best way and how to make players feel satisfaction when accomplishing things. It's hard.

But true, I think the way they do it now is the best way, having a weekly with the dailys and solo content and one weekly where the H4 is part of it.

Powertech Tank with L50 Gault.

Daily "missing pieces" did not complete, way points disappeared from the map and tasks greyed out as complete but no reward and still listed. I collected the closest data pad twice, once before battle once after battle.

Companion got stuck on top of the ruins, cords 969,-574

Heroic Supply Heist, the two Jedi Tank Droid 01 did not engage at same time as Jedi. Neither attacked me whilst being attacked.

Agree with previous comments that tokens should be legacy like reputation, real bind with having to grind Crisis on Umbara etc. Going to be terrible trying to gear if tokens are bound to toon.

Otherwise looks good and can we have a GSF Op against a capital ship please.

So to clarify our design goal a bit more, we will still have [Heroic 2+] missions on Ossus. There will be just 1 [Heroic 4] Mission.

 

The heroics are also not a part of the dailies/weekly's that give masterwork shards so playing the heroics is not needed to obtain the higher tiers of gear.

 

Thanks

 

-Jackie

To provide some context. I only do Heroic 4 missions on Section X and Black Hole on stealth characters solo for two reasons:

1) The organizational cost of finding a group to do that mission isn't worth the cost; and

2) The time it takes me to solo through on non-stealth characters isn't worth the benefit.

Look, it's fine that you want to promote group play in some circumstances, but the costs of getting a group to complete one measly H4 mission given the current reward structure isn't worth it. There is nothing on the PTS which makes me want to complete Hold the Line. As you note yourself, it is not part of the weekly.

As of now, I will most likely ignore it ignore it. The cost benefit analysis dictates so.

Dasty

Is the H4 going to be part of the 'normal' weekly quest (similar to Black Hole / Section X) that grants 10k+ command points?

Right now that's the ONLY reason to do the ones that exist, and that's only once a week.

i have a l50 koth and he feels like a level 10 . am bis atm from old gear.

the repawn time on the daily that u have to kill the 3 alien captains seem to long.

mobs hit very hard on a good mount. just 1 or 2 hits

blue daily board bugged out allot for me. i did nt see it in plan view. did nt get given the heroic mission i found 1

To provide some context. I only do Heroic 4 missions on Section X and Black Hole on stealth characters solo for two reasons:

 

1) The organizational cost of finding a group to do that mission isn't worth the cost; and

 

2) The time it takes me to solo through on non-stealth characters isn't worth the benefit.

 

Look, it's fine that you want to promote group play in some circumstances, but the costs of getting a group to complete one measly H4 mission given the current reward structure isn't worth it. There is nothing on the PTS which makes me want to complete Hold the Line. As you note yourself, it is not part of the weekly.

 

As of now, I will most likely ignore it ignore it. The cost benefit analysis dictates so.

 

Dasty

Oh come on now.It takes literally a second to write "lfg "mission name" " into the chat.

To provide some context. I only do Heroic 4 missions on Section X and Black Hole on stealth characters solo for two reasons:

 

1) The organizational cost of finding a group to do that mission isn't worth the cost; and

 

2) The time it takes me to solo through on non-stealth characters isn't worth the benefit.

Dasty

you know you can take of your gear and run throught the black hole h2? you have to die 2 times to reset the trash, but thats it. takes about 2min, with endboss.

in section x you dont even have to die, just run to the end, avoid the boss(hes not needed to complete the mission) and kill the last group. all other groups evade as soon as you reach the last room.

FEEDBACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

- FRAKING FRAKING FRAKING STUPID DAILIES.

I have done 1/2 of them and have had to look up fraking 3 of them already due to some form of ********.

- Scrapyard: failing over 9 straight times and additional 10 times just trying to finish the last 3.

- Mutated geno captains: Oh, you literally want me to assist ....., because there was LITERALLY NOTHING ATTACKING THEM. THANKS for having me run around.

- Scan the array.... oh...its a just a tiny bit showing over the mountain. MUCH ENJOYED.

- Killed named npc. Oh joy, more wait and possibly waiting more if people hit it first. THANK YOU AGAIN.

Honestly, what else can I expect then same old decade MMO BS from a F2P that can only manage to barely do content. Shove your crappy daily designs up your *****