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Consolidated: Consular Sage Melee should scale with Willpower Thread


Samaul

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Please put your thoughts concerning Consular Sage melee or Lightsabre damage should scale with willpower here.

 

The concept is simple

 

Consular Sage melee or Lightsabre damage should scale with the willpower stat or Sage melee damage should increase with our willpower stat. Sages should have more than just autoattack melee damage.

 

Please request a sticky for this thread by clicking the FLAG button and saying "Request Sticky".

 

Edit: Clarifications on what we are looking for and whether it would affect class balance

 

1. The Sage is a Jedi not a mage. The sage weilds the force as his or her primary weapon. The lightsabre is a support weapon for the Sage.

 

2. The Lightsabre is arguably the most powerful melee weapon in any MMORPG, ever. In lore jedi are able to cut through hardened alloy steel with their lightsabre. Therefore, the lightsabre should not hit like a wet noodle as it does for the sage.

 

3. The sages Lightsabre should be a last resort melee weapon with limited effectiveness at close range.

 

4. Sage lightsabre attacks should hit for a fraction of the damage of melee dps classes.

 

5. The Sage's lightsabre attacks should hit for more than auto-attack damage.

 

6. The Sage's current melee lightsabre abilities should be sufficient for the Sage. There is no need for additional sage melee abilities.

 

7. The Sage could use a single ranged Lightsabre throw and recall ability.

 

8. The Sage's lightsabre attacks should have added utility such as Force generation.

 

9. The Sage desperately needs a melee finisher. It is ludicrous that we are defenseless in melee range. A melee dps at 5% health can easily finish a sage at half health while they wait for the cd of the next cc, lockdown, shield or escape ability.

 

10. There is no precedent in lore for a lightsabre that is set on low or stun.

 

Some say that scaling sage melee attacks with willpower cause class balance issues. This is pure hyperbole. First we have only two weak lightsabre attacks. Second, our melee damage is so low that it hardly registers on targets in pve much less pvp. Current sage melee damage is quite literally weapon damage with an occaisional crit. That means at level 25 we are hitting for about 50-100 damage on a target with 5-6k hp in pvp. Even if Sage melee damage were doubled it would hardly register on any damage parse.

 

The fundamental question for sage melee is this

 

Is the Sage a Mage or Jedi?

 

I came to SWTOR to play a Jedi, not a Mage. If I wanted to play a Mage, I would have stayed in RIFT.

 

Sage melee damage reality check

 

Even if Sage melee damage did scale with willpower and were buffed by as much as 100%, it would still be a fraction of that of dedicated melee dps classes and tanks. Even with double our current melee damage, for any sage to attempt to stand toe to toe with any dedicated melee dps class or tank would be suicide. This change would be largely symbolic but important in that it would be an acknowledgement by BioWare that the Sage is not just another cookie-cutter archetypal mage or priest, that the sage is in fact a Jedi. The Lightsabre is the Jedi's weapon.

Edited by Samaul
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Yeah no.

 

I see where you're coming from and from a cosmetic/artistic perspective I do agree. I would like my sage to use his saber more. However I made a choice to play a "mage" (which is what the Sage's role).

 

Granting the Sage bonus melee damage from willpower would be immensely overpowered, if you gaev too small of a boost "not making it op" it would be useless, since everything in the Sage's rotation, skills and trees encourages him to stay as far away as possible.

 

 

The only solution possible is some sort of saber throw spell, but since guardians have it we will probably not get it either.

 

 

 

I do in no way mean to sound insulting or such, but you might consider rerolling before its too late - cause you didnt pick a saber "wielding" class, you picked a force wielding class.

 

Cheers

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Yeah no.

 

I see where you're coming from and from a cosmetic/artistic perspective I do agree. I would like my sage to use his saber more. However I made a choice to play a "mage" (which is what the Sage's role).

 

Granting the Sage bonus melee damage from willpower would be immensely overpowered, if you gaev too small of a boost "not making it op" it would be useless, since everything in the Sage's rotation, skills and trees encourages him to stay as far away as possible.

 

 

The only solution possible is some sort of saber throw spell, but since guardians have it we will probably not get it either.

 

 

 

I do in no way mean to sound insulting or such, but you might consider rerolling before its too late - cause you didnt pick a saber "wielding" class, you picked a force wielding class.

 

Cheers

 

We have a sabre, we should be able to use it effectively, though not as effectively as a knight or shadow. Its that simple.

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The downfall is that we have very limited options of what to do as a healer when the group is topped off. You can't simple spam damage spells like other healers potentially can, due to the nature of our resource.

 

Having a ranged non-force requiring ability to throw some damage out during these times would be superb.

 

Another option is to give the Seer tree some sort of regen mechanic through usage of damage spells, not including Concentration in the TK tree, as you spend more force casting 3x Disturbance than you regen from 30% increased rate over 10 seconds.

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The downfall is that we have very limited options of what to do as a healer when the group is topped off. You can't simple spam damage spells like other healers potentially can, due to the nature of our resource.

 

Having a ranged non-force requiring ability to throw some damage out during these times would be superb.

 

Another option is to give the Seer tree some sort of regen mechanic through usage of damage spells, not including Concentration in the TK tree, as you spend more force casting 3x Disturbance than you regen from 30% increased rate over 10 seconds.

 

Yes, this is the problem and we are very vulnerable in melee range.

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sages can't have effective melee abilities, otherwise they'd be way too powerful. it's a pretty simple concept that some people can't grasp.

 

What you are doing is imposing rules from classes from other games that do not apply to star wars. No, we are not mages. There are no mages in the star wars universe.

 

I am not looking for a huge buff. Maybe 10-20% damage which isnt much considering our current pitiful melee damage.

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The downfall is that we have very limited options of what to do as a healer when the group is topped off. You can't simple spam damage spells like other healers potentially can, due to the nature of our resource.

 

Having a ranged non-force requiring ability to throw some damage out during these times would be superb.

 

Another option is to give the Seer tree some sort of regen mechanic through usage of damage spells, not including Concentration in the TK tree, as you spend more force casting 3x Disturbance than you regen from 30% increased rate over 10 seconds.

 

 

I think the best of both worlds here would be a ranged, no cost, basic attack like other healers have.

 

We often don't want to be in melee range, so what about a "Saber Toss" ability that does damage on the way there, and back. It would be equivalent to a Smuggler healer or Commando's basic attack.

 

Plus, we would be using our saber, but still in a very telekinesis/Sage way.

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I don't see why Willpower shouldn't affect the no-cost attack. I can understand the argument that the rest of the damage tool-set is balanced around having no viable no-cost attack at present but it would be easy enough to re-balance it accordingly.

 

One option would be to include something in the Seer tree that extended the range of Sabre Strike. It does have the drawback that Sabre Throw has become something of a class defining ability and so may not be given up lightly...

 

X

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I tried being constructive, I'm going to be as childish...

 

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO

 

 

For balance issues, NO.

Not supposed to be a mage? What are you smoking. Are you going to make (let me rephrase) a CASTER strong in melee? Yeah, NO.

 

 

Every class needs a weakness and youre trying to rid our class of it's weakness and make it void of skill, zzzz, REROLL.

 

 

This is not the saberwielding class youre looking for. Just spam doubble strike thats approximately 300-500 damage at higher levels which isn't really optimal but if you want to saber, go for it.

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I tried being constructive, I'm going to be as childish...

 

 

For balance issues, NO.

Not supposed to be a mage? What are you smoking. Are you going to make (let me rephrase) a CASTER strong in melee? Yeah, NO.

 

 

Every class needs a weakness and youre trying to rid our class of it's weakness and make it void of skill, zzzz, REROLL.

 

 

This is not the saberwielding class youre looking for. Just spam doubble strike thats approximately 300-500 damage at higher levels which isn't really optimal but if you want to saber, go for it.

 

The balance agrument doesnt hold water because even if Sage melee damage were doubled, it would still be only a fraction of the shadow or jedi knight. A reasonable buff to sage meelee damge would have zero effect on class balance in SWTOR.

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The Sage class is balanced around both the fact of being a ranged caster and having no cost-free "auto-attack". Saber Strike and Double strike are mere relics from the first few levels, where a consular has yet to decide between the Shadow or Sage.

 

Bringing in a viable "auto-attack" would probably require nerfing on some other point, as the Sage is probably on the more powerful side right now, and further buffing would be uncalled for. I personally would prefer not to see any parts of my current toolbox butchered, just to see a gimmick raised to pseudo-viability.

 

These "auto-attacks" and "auto-heals" (Yes they're not automatic, but I tend to stick to that name because they correspond to auto-attacks in other MMOs) are a way for classes, that - per design - have downtimes either due to ressource mechanics or skill CD or both, to fill those gaps.

 

The sage has an - in comparison- enormous resource pool with a rather slow regeneration rate. Additionally he has spammable nukes and/or heals and a more strategic regeneration interplay. An auto-attack for regenerative (non deteriorating) use would be like trying to have intercourse with an oil pipeline. The size of the regeneration and the time spent simply don't match.

 

On another note: For simple style reasons while solo questing nobody's gonna eat your face for pressing saber strike once or twice to see the animation.

Edited by PossibleBit
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The Sage class is balanced around both the fact of being a ranged caster and having no cost-free "auto-attack". Saber Strike and Double strike are mere relics from the first few levels, where a consular has yet to decide between the Shadow or Sage.

 

Bringing in a viable "auto-attack" would probably require nerfing on some other point, as the Sage is probably on the more powerful side right now, and further buffing would be uncalled for. I personally would prefer not to see any parts of my current toolbox butchered, just to see a gimmick raised to pseudo-viability.

 

These "auto-attacks" and "auto-heals" (Yes they're not automatic, but I tend to stick to that name because they correspond to auto-attacks in other MMOs) are a way for classes, that - per design - have downtimes either due to ressource mechanics or skill CD or both, to fill those gaps.

 

The sage has an - in comparison- enormous resource pool with a rather slow regeneration rate. Additionally he has spammable nukes and/or heals and a more strategic regeneration interplay. An auto-attack for regenerative (non deteriorating) use would be like trying to have intercourse with an oil pipeline. The size of the regeneration and the time spent simply don't match.

 

On another note: For simple style reasons while solo questing nobody's gonna eat your face for pressing saber strike once or twice to see the animation.

 

Calling any Sage ability a "nuke" is a gross exaggeration. Again, even if sage melee damage were doubled, there would be zero effect on balance. At 25, we are talking about 50-100 damage per melee hit.

 

What is truly silly is giving a sage arguably the most powerful melee weapon in any game ever and then having it hit like a wet noodle.

Edited by Samaul
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Calling any Sage ability a "nuke" is a gross exaggeration. Again, even if sage melee damage were doubled, there would be zero effect on balance.

 

What is truly silly is giving a sage arguably the most powerful melee weapon in any game ever and then having it hit like a wet noodle.

 

^^ this truth

 

it is difficult to consider anything a sage throws a qualified big "nuke" since they're based around a rotation with DOT's that without the DoT's their dmg would be lacking.

 

Unlike say the Snip/Guns who with 1 major crit can almost say, pwned. Now those guys have "nukes".

 

There is nothing wrong with giving Sage a "viable" no-cost attack at the very least just for healers.

 

It is unbalanced for Commando / Scoundrel healers to both have no-cost abilities that scale with their primary attribute. Yet sage healers do not have this going for them. So while the Com/scoun heal they can still enjoy themselves with dmg especially in pvp where the more you do of dmg and healing the more medals you receive.

 

 

So i propose at the very least offering a talent in the Seer tree to offer 1 of either these 2 things and have it be combined with a already heal worthy talent.

 

Either talent A: Have willpower scale with lightsaber dmg

 

or talent B: have willpower scale with lightsaber dmg along with allowing the "no cost saber attack" to be turned into a kinetic force dmg that you throw the dmg as you swipe. So all the normal saber moves just without a target directly in front of you. So you are "swiping" kinetic dmg their way similar to how a knight who Performs that same action but they only get 10m's for that on a CD ability.

 

Though i could care less if Option B was done i just wanted to share a fun idea.

 

And before people skim my post and reply, I am asking for this in the HEALING tree, so no it will not effect your dps rotation as a dmg specced sage so calm down it will be ok.

Some of us healers just want to be equivalent to other Heal specced classes and to have a no-cost attack that is as effective as other healers in between heals.

Edited by Strixs
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^^ this truth

 

it is difficult to consider anything a sage throws a qualified big "nuke" since they're based around a rotation with DOT's that without the DoT's their dmg would be lacking.

 

Unlike say the Snip/Guns who with 1 major crit can almost say, pwned. Now those guys have "nukes".

 

There is nothing wrong with giving Sage a "viable" no-cost attack at the very least just for healers.

 

It is unbalanced for Commando / Scoundrel healers to both have no-cost abilities that scale with their primary attribute. Yet sage healers do not have this going for them. So while the Com/scoun heal they can still enjoy themselves with dmg especially in pvp where the more you do of dmg and healing the more medals you receive.

 

 

So i propose at the very least offering a talent in the Seer tree to offer 1 of either these 2 things and have it be combined with a already heal worthy talent.

 

Either talent A: Have willpower scale with lightsaber dmg

 

or talent B: have willpower scale with lightsaber dmg along with allowing the "no cost saber attack" to be turned into a kinetic force dmg that you throw the dmg as you swipe. So all the normal saber moves just without a target directly in front of you. So you are "swiping" kinetic dmg their way similar to how a knight who Performs that same action but they only get 10m's for that on a CD ability.

 

Though i could care less if Option B was done i just wanted to share a fun idea.

 

And before people skim my post and reply, I am asking for this in the HEALING tree, so no it will not effect your dps rotation as a dmg specced sage so calm down it will be ok.

Some of us healers just want to be equivalent to other Heal specced classes and to have a no-cost attack that is as effective as other healers in between heals.

 

Great post. I would add to you ideas a melee attack that generates force. It sucks to be focused in melee range, all my abilities are on CD and I dont have enough Force to heal or sheild myself and I have no way to generate focus other than sacrificing already low health.

 

Again, we are talking about melee damage that is very low, essentially weapon damage. Even if that were buffed by 20%, it would still be suicidal to close with a strong or better enemy in melee range 1v1. What I am talking about is "last resort" melee damage, when all else fails and we are just trying to finish off a mob or player that is low health and is in melee range or generate enough force to survive.

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Because it shouldn't. We don't want someone with best spells, shields, heals, force speed, knockback, instant 8s CC if specced, stun, to also go toe to toe in melee?

 

Because this is what would happen: you will take on that champ mob with your pet, meleeing it for no force cost regening to heal pet, while still doing great dps on him.

 

Seriously is just an aesthetic for you guys, take it for what it is :>

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^^ this truth

 

it is difficult to consider anything a sage throws a qualified big "nuke" since they're based around a rotation with DOT's that without the DoT's their dmg would be lacking.

 

Unlike say the Snip/Guns who with 1 major crit can almost say, pwned. Now those guys have "nukes".

 

There is nothing wrong with giving Sage a "viable" no-cost attack at the very least just for healers.

 

It is unbalanced for Commando / Scoundrel healers to both have no-cost abilities that scale with their primary attribute. Yet sage healers do not have this going for them. So while the Com/scoun heal they can still enjoy themselves with dmg especially in pvp where the more you do of dmg and healing the more medals you receive.

 

 

So i propose at the very least offering a talent in the Seer tree to offer 1 of either these 2 things and have it be combined with a already heal worthy talent.

 

Either talent A: Have willpower scale with lightsaber dmg

 

or talent B: have willpower scale with lightsaber dmg along with allowing the "no cost saber attack" to be turned into a kinetic force dmg that you throw the dmg as you swipe. So all the normal saber moves just without a target directly in front of you. So you are "swiping" kinetic dmg their way similar to how a knight who Performs that same action but they only get 10m's for that on a CD ability.

 

Though i could care less if Option B was done i just wanted to share a fun idea.

 

And before people skim my post and reply, I am asking for this in the HEALING tree, so no it will not effect your dps rotation as a dmg specced sage so calm down it will be ok.

Some of us healers just want to be equivalent to other Heal specced classes and to have a no-cost attack that is as effective as other healers in between heals.

 

Am sorry I was not aware ballance / madness are only dps trees for a sage / inq. What about Telekinetics / Lightning? Which are cast heavy nukes all over the place? The dot you use is only for a proc is not a major part of your dps. Don't tell me you use the dot on anything weaker than elites because you can 4-5 shot silvers 2-3 shot normal / weaks with your basic nuke seriously.

 

The other healer types - energy and heat / ammo based need the basic attack in order to keep their resource levels at bay, you as a sage / sorc do not, you regen same 8 force / s no matter how much of your resource bar is spent.

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Because it shouldn't. We don't want someone with best spells, shields, heals, force speed, knockback, instant 8s CC if specced, stun, to also go toe to toe in melee?

 

Because this is what would happen: you will take on that champ mob with your pet, meleeing it for no force cost regening to heal pet, while still doing great dps on him.

 

Seriously is just an aesthetic for you guys, take it for what it is :>

 

Im sorry, are we talking about the sage here?

 

I think the name of the sage advanced class should be changed to "Empire Bait" in pvp. There seems to be some sort of myth of the powerful sage. Doing great dps? The only thing the sage sems to be good at is PvE healing and that is because of the force shield. My sage gets 3-shotted by melee in pvp, even with the shield up. If the empire decides to leave me alone and let me heal in pvp, I can do great things, if they focus me, I go down fast. Lets face it, Sages have only one really powerful ability and that is Force Shield. Everything else is just meh.

 

No one said toe to toe, I said "last resort melee". This is not wow, the classes are not black and white. We are talking about a minor buff. You just need to read before you post.

Edited by Samaul
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Because this is what would happen: you will take on that champ mob with your pet, meleeing it for no force cost regening to heal pet, while still doing great dps on him.

 

Seriously is just an aesthetic for you guys, take it for what it is :>

 

Lol, Scoundrel / Commando who are heal specced already do what you described except their no-cost attack at least does moderate dmg because it is scaled with their stats...

 

And Then if its just aesthetic why is a Healing commandos gun still usable and a Healing scoundrels gun still usable for decent amounts of dps. Sure its not burst but it does help.

Edited by Strixs
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Please don't implement any form of melee combat aside from what already exists. I rolled a Consular Sage to heal and use Force attacks. If I wanted to be a Consular that uses a Saber for damage, I would have rolled Shadow, or more likely, rolled either Advanced Class that a Jedi Knight has.
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I definitely endorse the OP.

 

Shadow specced Consulars do have some viable ranged damage abilities, even if not as powerful as Sages. There's no reason for Sages not to be able to have some viable melee abilities, even if not as powerful as Shadows. Think out of the box once in a while, please.

And yes, I know, Shadows can't heal themselves. But they can go stealth, while sages don't.

 

You can have different opinions on this, sure. But stop stating that Willpower scaling in melee for Sages would be clearly overpowered as if it was a self-evident statment. It just ISN'T the case.

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Please don't implement any form of melee combat aside from what already exists. I rolled a Consular Sage to heal and use Force attacks. If I wanted to be a Consular that uses a Saber for damage, I would have rolled Shadow, or more likely, rolled either Advanced Class that a Jedi Knight has.

 

I am not asking for more abilities, just that existing abilities scale with willpower. That could hardly be considered OP.

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