Well written.

 

 

As for the idea that Theron's death was for edgelords, what a derogatory term just because you don't like that it was an option. This game is based on killing people, be they npcs or pc's. The idea only edgelords kill anyone is ridiculous as you can't even get to that point without having killed a damn lot of NPCs. You have killed 100 of thousands of republic (or Imperial) personal and Jedi (sith), local security and definitely Chiss put in harms way by Therons actions. But his death is only for edgelords. Maybe if you think killing NPCs makes someone an edgelord, you have to ask have you killed any NPCs in the game. And if you have that makes you one, I think it makes everyone an edgelord. So the game is only for edgelords who see it as part of the game to kill NPCs and those that don't want to be an Edgelord need to find a different game to play, one without any killing in it.

There is a big difference in killing a companion, who this far has been major character in the story, and who on top of that is LI, and killing as a game mechanics. We kill mobs because killing hitboxes would be very boring. You know this, of course, but lets pretend that someone needed to tell you this. Theron had to die because writers trashed his character as a plot device in their crap plot full of holes, and then certain amount of people wanted him dead because certain amount of people just are like that. It was well-known fact that kill-option will lead Theron being as good as dead for everyone, and people didn't care because you know what, surprisingly big amount of people like to take things away from others. It gives them an illusion of winning.

There is a big difference in killing a companion, who this far has been major character in the story, and who on top of that is LI, and killing as a game mechanics. We kill mobs because killing hitboxes would be very boring. You know this, of course, but lets pretend that someone needed to tell you this. Theron had to die because writers trashed his character as a plot device in their crap plot full of holes, and then certain amount of people wanted him dead because certain amount of people just are like that. It was well-known fact that kill-option will lead Theron being as good as dead for everyone, and people didn't care because you know what, surprisingly big amount of people like to take things away from others. It gives them an illusion of winning.

I've bolded a bit cause its spot on.

The writers trashed his character, in what we all agree was a plot hole infested mess. You are given far more reason to kill him than say a republic trooper who just so happens to been sent to Iokath because of faulty intel. It seems that as soon as someone is a love interest, anyone that kills them is suddenly an edgelord and the only reason its even an option is cause of those emo's. Hell I'm pretty sure those that wanted Arcann dead were branded as Edgelords, though strangely didn't seem the same accusation thrown around when Baras or Saresh or many other NPCs that have kill options against them.

It seems there is a claim he was only a kill option because edgelords demanded it, was an attempt to make seem like it was only edgelords that could possible have wanted to kill him. Anyone that selected the kill option was a petty minded emo that does it cause they want to come off as extra edgy or whatever. Yet killing lots of other NPCs is good honest moral upright non edgelord slaying.

The whole explanation for the traiter arc never made sense to me.

I suspect Theron really did betray me, cause he thought the Alliance was becoming too powerful.

After he had figured out what the Order of Zildrog was after, he didn't really need to give them the map.

And he joined me on Nathema just a little too late to stop Zildrogs activation.

At the end the throne, most of the eternal fleet and the gravestone where gone, so the alliance lost most of it's strength.

Maybe that was Theron's plan all along.

The Alliance was formed to fight the Eternal Empire and after that threat was gone, maybe Theron thougth I would start taking over the whole galaxy or something.

His joining me on Nathema was just a plot to get back into my good graces, so he could stay close to me and keep an eye on things to come.

Or it's just a giant plot hole

I don’t find it so complicated, in Iokath is not Theron on the throne thing, must be someone else and he just uses that as a token opportunity to get the bad gang’s attention. They are only finding out they are being watched. Gemini leading everyone to Iokath makes obvious sense cuz she is built from there. Mind you, we should have gotten more help there if you chose to save Scorpio but alas.

Anyway, Theron finds out we are being watched and finds out they are recruiting. How? He’s a spy and thats what he does, his contacts must have told him about the recruitments the order of zildrog was doing. Now the Umbara mission wasn’t so much about needing those crystals, it was more of a mission Theron had to do to prove the bad guys he was on their side. Basically the Umbara mission is just an orchestration. Something that would lead our commander to do a holomessage across the galaxy that would prove Theron does want to betray him. Also, I think it was pretty obvious he was not betraying you in Umbara when the line “I’ll do anything to protect you” is followed by the longest kiss possible if romanced. There’s also the fact what he shot hardly harmed Lana, the window, etc.

Anyway moving to traitor among the chiss, NOW that Theron proved himself to these bad guys he is sent on a mission to find the map of the weapon they are going to use. It was crucial for Theron to do this because he would then know the location of where the bad guys are heading. If Theron had not infiltrated, gemini or someone else they would hire, would find the map, and activate zildrog while everyone is chillin in Odessen and then rip everyone, the end.

Now that he has a location and all information of these bad guys, Theron has to prove to you what he has been doing and what is going on. And thus he left all that info on that ship.

The problem with this story that makes it confusing is the timetables I would say. And then is also the big question, why didn’t he tell you? Well Gemini is shown to not fully trust Theron whe she says “I warned you about him” when Theron betrays them. This means Gemini must have been following his every path once he comes into play for them. That’s why he lets you find all that info on your own in the ship. So in summary, Theron telling you would risk the whole operation, he wouldn’t be the one to get the map, and the order would have succeeded fully.

Now they shouldn’t have been a kill/leave death option in the first place because it makes 0 sense to do so. You would have been dead and everyone you loved if he had not done what he did. So yeah its an edgelord option. Now the decision to make him leave the alliance later makes sense and should be more of a common options for comps instead of kill ones but alas.

Why would a kill option not make any sense?

I mean... I spared Theron with my main because, even though I had put a price on his head, I remained in the end sensitive to his explanations (and my dear Arcann had asked me to spare him ) but I can easily see a less magnanimous character deciding to let him die there in punishment. Anger and resentment are not very controllable and rational feelings, especially for a Sith that would embrace the dark side more fully that my own character.

Theron gave the map, therefore he is responsible for Gemini 16 and Atrius having access to Zildrog. Maybe they would have found it anyway, maybe not, but in this specific scenario, he is deeply responsible for the loss of the fleet and the Gravestone which are key to a power-thirsty character. And he betrayed the Commander's trust, a Commander that he considered not worth the knowledge, or not trustworthy enough. The whole thing can be seen this way too and could make a character that is naturally inclined to anger veeeeeeeeeeeery angry indeed. And this kind of character would not rationalise and try to find reasons not to let him die.

As for the idea that Theron's death was for edgelords, what a derogatory term just because you don't like that it was an option. This game is based on killing people, be they npcs or pc's. The idea only edgelords kill anyone is ridiculous as you can't even get to that point without having killed a damn lot of NPCs. You have killed 100 of thousands of republic (or Imperial) personal and Jedi (sith), local security and definitely Chiss put in harms way by Therons actions. But his death is only for edgelords. Maybe if you think killing NPCs makes someone an edgelord, you have to ask have you killed any NPCs in the game. And if you have that makes you one, I think it makes everyone an edgelord. So the game is only for edgelords who see it as part of the game to kill NPCs and those that don't want to be an Edgelord need to find a different game to play, one without any killing in it.

I didn't say that only edgelords kill people, but I don't think it's a spurious idea that some of the deaths in this game are for that population. We've had plenty of people posting here about what big bad Sith lords they are and how they can't wait to stick their lightsaber through (name a companion) , or they've described how they want to graphically kill other companions, or they've proudly posted art of the dead companions, and they do seem to get off on it above and beyond someone going through a normal course of gameplay that has to knock off companions here and there.

Take Quinn. I personally think he should have been killable or able to be exiled in the vanilla story, because it made no sense for my Sith Warriors to smile and say "Sure, you just engineered a plot to kill me, but come right back on board, my good man!" But on Iokath, when my Sith Warrior was randomly talking to him and turned around and stabbed him, and they made SURE they got a nice closeup of his face while he writhing in pain and moaning in agony, did that seem not a bit like it was catering to a particular group of players? Not only that but Sith Warriors who remain with the Empire aren't even given a choice to just tell Quinn to leave because they won't work with him or put him in prison, if they want him gone the only way to accomplish it is to kill him.

In terms of Theron, we had several places where we could have killed him on Nathema, and heck, they could have had him brought back to the Alliance for a trial and execution, or had the PC kill him then and there, but instead it seemed like a bit much. I don't like Theron. I can't stand him and most of my characters actually ask him to go away once they get back to the Alliance. But it seemed like an overly and needlessly gratuitous moment to me to leave him in the cave and then show him sitting there alone groaning as he died.

What bothers me the most is that the entire flippin' fleet was near Odessen at the time. Why on earth would you do that!? Hylo says she pulled the entire fleet there, but that still makes no sense. If you have an empire you would assume a lot of the ships would have been on some mission or the other. Just as you were able to isolate a ship in KOTFE when Arcann stil commanded them. A few shots and BAM the entire fleet gone...rly!?

Yes, what happened to all the Eternal Fleet ships that were supposed to be patrolling, or doing peacekeeping work on other planets if you're a peacekeeper?

Hylo shouldn't have even been able to pull the fleet anywhere. They make such a big deal of it in KOTET that the only person who can control the fleet is the person who is the current occupant of the Eternal Throne.

Why would a kill option not make any sense?

 

I mean... I spared Theron with my main because, even though I had put a price on his head, I remained in the end sensitive to his explanations (and my dear Arcann had asked me to spare him ) but I can easily see a less magnanimous character deciding to let him die there in punishment. Anger and resentment are not very controllable and rational feelings, especially for a Sith that would embrace the dark side more fully that my own character.

Theron gave the map, therefore he is responsible for Gemini 16 and Atrius having access to Zildrog. Maybe they would have found it anyway, maybe not, but in this specific scenario, he is deeply responsible for the loss of the fleet and the Gravestone which are key to a power-thirsty character. And he betrayed the Commander's trust, a Commander that he considered not worth the knowledge, or not trustworthy enough. The whole thing can be seen this way too and could make a character that is naturally inclined to anger veeeeeeeeeeeery angry indeed. And this kind of character would not rationalise and try to find reasons not to let him die.

Sure I get that but if that type of character is just going to kill off anyone that angers them, they are just going to end up kiilling their alliance. Like imagine letting you kill Lana because your angry she didn’t do her job during this and therefore you don’t trust her to do her job well either. There’s some limits to how much the story makes sense with the choices given really. And is not that he didn’t trust the commander, is that if he did tell the commander, that’s it, Gemini would know he told the commander. They would cover their tracks, find the map without Theron and there goes the alliance. Him giving the map would have happened with or without him, given that it was Nathema, it wouldn’t have remained secret for long.

The whole explanation for the traiter arc never made sense to me.

 

I suspect Theron really did betray me, cause he thought the Alliance was becoming too powerful.

 

After he had figured out what the Order of Zildrog was after, he didn't really need to give them the map.

 

And he joined me on Nathema just a little too late to stop Zildrogs activation.

 

At the end the throne, most of the eternal fleet and the gravestone where gone, so the alliance lost most of it's strength.

 

Maybe that was Theron's plan all along.

 

The Alliance was formed to fight the Eternal Empire and after that threat was gone, maybe Theron thougth I would start taking over the whole galaxy or something.

 

His joining me on Nathema was just a plot to get back into my good graces, so he could stay close to me and keep an eye on things to come.

 

Or it's just a giant plot hole

Ahahaha this explanation is like a first one that would make some sense with the story given.

But yeah, Sonicphoto did very good wrap up right after your post so i am torn again. I might have to come back after every new story episode to ask both you to explain it to me

The whole explanation for the traiter arc never made sense to me.

 

I suspect Theron really did betray me, cause he thought the Alliance was becoming too powerful.

 

After he had figured out what the Order of Zildrog was after, he didn't really need to give them the map.

 

And he joined me on Nathema just a little too late to stop Zildrogs activation.

 

At the end the throne, most of the eternal fleet and the gravestone where gone, so the alliance lost most of it's strength.

 

Maybe that was Theron's plan all along.

 

The Alliance was formed to fight the Eternal Empire and after that threat was gone, maybe Theron thougth I would start taking over the whole galaxy or something.

 

His joining me on Nathema was just a plot to get back into my good graces, so he could stay close to me and keep an eye on things to come.

 

Or it's just a giant plot hole

This makes more sense than what BW came up with. He got involved in a conspiracy because of a reasonable objection to how the PC was behaving [it works better with Emperor PCs] then got cold feet when he saw what he was being asked to do and tried to rejoin by sending Lana that code.

An alternative [and completely crazy] theory is that Lana and Theron planned it together as a thought experiment that got out of hand. They basically created a game theory to test how effective the Alliance would be against insurgents, and what controls [ie. surveillance] the PC would agree to for the sake of Alliance security. As time went on, they lost control / got carried away of the experiment, or perhaps discovered a real homegrown conspiracy hiding under their fake conspiracy. Or maybe there was no loss of control, they knew what they were doing almost every step of the way: a manufactured war to divert attention from the fact that no one in the Alliance knew how to run an empire effectively. That would make the Umbarans Iraqis in this scenario, I guess.

There is no Cult of Zildrog, Gemini 16 was selected at random to participate in the exercise, Valls and Mr. Horizon Guard were patsies [perhaps the Ascendancy CDF were somewhat involved, trying to figure out a nice way to clean house with Valls and House Inrokini], and the Chiss map was a heist, they weren't specifically looking for Zildrog. Zildrog itself would be the question mark. But I can see Lana having reasonable concerns that the flagship for their fabulous fleet is this piece of alien technology that they don't really understand at all, and proceeding from there.

@paulsutherland

 

I answer this one time to you, so enjoy. I don't normally feed forum trolls.

 

Theron is not stupid. He never was, and he still isn't. Suddenly writers of SWTOR lost their mind and decided to trash his character. It is bad writing. How about we stop pretending that Theron Shan is a real person who is responsible for anything, because he isn't. He is a fictional character, thus he can't be responsible for what he does. The people who write him are the responsible ones. They created him. Theron didn't do anything. Writers did.

 

Now that we got that cleared, we can go to them wanting to write some drama. That is well and all. Traitor-arc has plenty of it. In order to get the drama they seemed to want, they trashed Therons character and made him to be a total idiot. To accomplish that they had to create a story so stupid and so full of plot holes a kidergardener can see them without any effort. People can of course rationalise that story to their advantage (like you just did) because it servers their biases, but it is still irrational, illogical nonsense from beginning to the end. It is simply bad writing. You can show that plot to anyone who is a professional writer and they will agree with me.

 

People like you are the reason we lost Theron for good. You embraced the steaming pile of turd that is the Nathema-storyline, just to get rid of Theron. Your hateboners are now taken care of, I would assume, but still you can't stop bringing it up and gloating about it. Theron is not in your game anymore, so what do you care? To top of that, he is not in our game either. So it is a win/win for you, right?

 

Yet only people I really want to blame about all this are the writers of this travesty. They should've known better. They once created a very good character called Theron Shan. For some reason some of the writers decided it is time to throw Theron under the bus. Because Theron Shan is an imaginary character, just pixels, they could do whatever they wanted to do with him, and this is what they wanted.

They did the same to Quinn in my opinion. I know people had wanted to kill him. But by the time Quinn comes back in Iokath, it's been almost 7 years since the betrayal. You some way or another forgave him. Then you betray him and your faction by siding with the Republic. Since he's defending the Empire, you know, the thing he worships more than Sith Lords? You dub him a traitor again and kill him. (not YOU, but general you)

I call all players who want any companion to die, for any dumb reason, a troll. And not a very intelligent troll. Why? Because once Bioware caves into their desires, they then **** up the game for the rest of us. I want Quinn alive and well and still my husband. I want there to be more face time with Theron. But because they are now killable for really dumb *********** reasons, we may or may not get them in anything but letters or small bits here and there. I mean, where the hell is Koth? All of my Koth are still alive, but I haven't seen him since early-mid KOTET. I'm tired of players wanting companions dead. Not only that, but they gave us people to romance that I never wanted to. WHY AM I ABLE TO ROMANCE KHEM-VAL??? That is *********** gross. And Jaesa knows I married Quinn, why the hell is she suddenly hitting on me?

This is fuzzy for me as well. To be honest i still really don't understand what the heck happened in there alltough it is possible it was explained but i just didn't get it. Why did my PC sat on the throne even it was already proven twice it's not a good idea? And if she stubbornly wanted to sacrifice herself to save everyone why didn't Theron try to stop her but even was telling her to sit there even he had seen what is does? Who was the hooded figure and what was the meaning of triggering those explosions around that throne, did it save us or was it attempt to kill us?

The PC has no agency, that's why. We're made to look stupid when obvious red flags are waving in our face (it all becomes too egregious for me the moment we meet the leader of the Zildrog cult in the Scorpio recruitment chapter, and it gets worse and worse and worse from there).

The writers are literally taunting our lack of both agency and intelligence when they do that little mustache-twirling turn by Scorpio where the chapter slowly closes with a zoom-in on her face. It makes me wonder what grade they think they're main players are in elementary school. It's like they wanted to take their thick (mostly blank) writing notebook and bash us over the head with it, but telegraphing everything so absurdly obvious was the next best alternative

There is a big difference in killing a companion, who this far has been major character in the story, and who on top of that is LI, and killing as a game mechanics. We kill mobs because killing hitboxes would be very boring. You know this, of course, but lets pretend that someone needed to tell you this. Theron had to die because writers trashed his character as a plot device in their crap plot full of holes, and then certain amount of people wanted him dead because certain amount of people just are like that. It was well-known fact that kill-option will lead Theron being as good as dead for everyone, and people didn't care because you know what, surprisingly big amount of people like to take things away from others. It gives them an illusion of winning.

I think you're my new favorite poster

This is the reason I get so driven up the wall by people continually demanding characters be removed, whether through kill options or exile options. Not everyone deserves to be killed but when enough people find BS reasons to hate a character and want them dead, the writers have to make them do something OOC or deliberately stupid because there isn't actually a good reason to do it otherwise.

The same people harping about wanting Ashara's head because.. reasons(?) are the same ones who cheered when Arcann became romanceable and when Quinn returned. It's hilarious. I've seen it all throughout the years but nothing tops the level of companion fanaticism that's been exhibited the past few years on this forum in particular. I'm a RP'er and I understand wanting the actual story o be satisfying enough to give a better basis for my own but some people are downright delusional.

The same people harping about wanting Ashara's head because.. reasons(?) are the same ones who cheered when Arcann became romanceable and when Quinn returned. It's hilarious. I've seen it all throughout the years but nothing tops the level of companion fanaticism that's been exhibited the past few years on this forum in particular. I'm a RP'er and I understand wanting the actual story o be satisfying enough to give a better basis for my own but some people are downright delusional.

Why kill Ashara? She wasn't my favourite companion or anything but she did nothing worthy of death. Did I miss something in the story post-vanilla? I haven't taken my assassin into any content past the class story.

And then there is the gaming aspect... cheese tactics.

The good news, once I know a companion has been “used”, that toon is cleared for advanced gifting.

#1 comp, is HK-51..

The bad news, my BH Merc is having to play thru Zakuul, she is the light side of gray, basic chaotic good. I’d love to just jump straight to Ossus, but I can’t accept those autocomplete losses.

The same people harping about wanting Ashara's head because.. reasons(?) are the same ones who cheered when Arcann became romanceable and when Quinn returned. It's hilarious. I've seen it all throughout the years but nothing tops the level of companion fanaticism that's been exhibited the past few years on this forum in particular. I'm a RP'er and I understand wanting the actual story o be satisfying enough to give a better basis for my own but some people are downright delusional.

I for one didn't mind Arcann being romanceable. I wasn't in favor of it initially, but it wasn't a bad job. If you spare him, he kind of just floats around aimlessly; at least with a romance, he has a purpose for being alive other than the PC just being a saint.

He's also, incidentally, an example of a character that got bricked [because of his kill option], then got partially unbricked for the romance, mainly due to forum feedback. Meaning that there's no reason that other characters like Vette and Kothe shouldn't get more screentime if players ask for it, simply because they had kill options.

We are falling into the pattern of being angry that players wanted x character dead, when that is not the problem, the problem is BW's laziness in not continuing to write for characters that a percentage of players wanted dead. Being allowed to kill characters, even for stupid reasons like Quinn, is not a 'bad' choice, it's just bad when BW decides not to write for them because of that, and that's where the concern should be, not over a minority of players demanding something and getting it. It would be like getting mad at players who killed Ardun Kothe in Act 2 of the IA story, if that meant that he'd never come back and offer IAs who spared him a job. Whose fault would that be, again? The writers, obviously.

The same people harping about wanting Ashara's head because.. reasons(?) are the same ones who cheered when Arcann became romanceable and when Quinn returned. It's hilarious. I've seen it all throughout the years but nothing tops the level of companion fanaticism that's been exhibited the past few years on this forum in particular. I'm a RP'er and I understand wanting the actual story o be satisfying enough to give a better basis for my own but some people are downright delusional.

There is definitely an easy to spot pattern with some people. However, the reason I don't like them is because they know what Bioware will do to a companion/NPC when they get a kill/exile option, yet want it to continue for other people who did nothing to deserve it.

To be clear, I don't mind how any of them actually feel about any companion. I don't care that my favorite seems to be the whipping togruta and the one companion I can count on to be brought up out of the blue in every single unrelated negative companion thread even when there was no call or need to bring her up. I also get to revel in the fact she's not killable, but I have no illusion she will be included ever again because she is technically "exile-able". Hate anyone all you want, but the blueprint is that except in one extreme example, the companion is done going forward for everyone. We all know this yet there is still a cheerleading squad for letting it continue, and they're not necessarily the edgelord crowd, who belong more to the "just want to watch the world burn" crowd rather than the petty, must-make-up-nonsensical-BS-reasons-to-hate-in-order-to-justify-a-kill-option crowd.

I agree with Androssan, this is Bioware's fault, not just some players' fault, and if they would continue writing for companions/NPCs that are killable, no one would ever complain. However, there is ample proof that some squeaky wheels have gotten the grease on kill options, so the fear is that Bioware, perversely and ironically, are not actually deaf to our demands. They just choose to ignore the sensible demands (continuing to include for some after death for some) and go with the lazy ones (kill them all so they are effectively dead for all. Sure is easy to write knowing you will not ever have to include them in your story branches going forward even if only one person in the game ever chooses the kill option).

For the Force's sake, we couldn't even get letters for each companion after Ossus. I got mostly nonsense from companions I never talked to or had a connection to and zero from any LI and zero from companions I did actually care to hear from after making the choices I've made for this arc. Don't want to waste all your time and resources making new cutscenes with amazing VA's? Do the least possible good thing you can do and start including more letters. Cheap, fairly quick, and is surprisingly easy-to-please for a lot of us. But put a little more effort into it rather than short little nonsense letters from Rusk and T7 and Qyzen on my imperial toons...

It's bad enough that they are disappearing people like Koth and the other killables and not even apologizing or pretending to care--if they just had them write simple letters it would chill out a lot of the bad blood flowing through here as you've noticed.

Why kill Ashara? She wasn't my favourite companion or anything but she did nothing worthy of death. Did I miss something in the story post-vanilla? I haven't taken my assassin into any content past the class story.

I'm sure they won't hesitate to enlighten you on it. Just do a search on her kill-demand thread and you'll see how it is. The short version is you (the Inq) manipulate her, kill her masters, use her to get what you want, Bioware doesn't allow you to tell her to go home if you don't want her on your ship, so please roll out the guillotine now and make sure it can cut through at least three montrals and a neck. You'd think she bullied her way onto your ship like Skadge, the way she makes some people froth at the mouth.

Bioware made it worse by pissing of DS Sith on purpose by allowing her to stand up for herself if she's been abused or hated by her Inq. Because the victim in that case deserves to die, right? How DARE she stand up for herself, especially in front of a former slave themselves!!

The same people harping about wanting Ashara's head because.. reasons(?) are the same ones who cheered when Arcann became romanceable and when Quinn returned. It's hilarious. I've seen it all throughout the years but nothing tops the level of companion fanaticism that's been exhibited the past few years on this forum in particular. I'm a RP'er and I understand wanting the actual story o be satisfying enough to give a better basis for my own but some people are downright delusional.

I was happy about Arcann-romance, and still am. I never asked for it though. I adore Quinn. I dislike Ashara. Yet, I have never, ever wanted to be able to kill or exile any characters. I always exile Kaliyo, I think my main even killed her, but I didn't demand the option to be given to me. It was there so I used it because Kaliyo irks me that much, but if that option wouldn't have been there I just wouldn't use her.

I don't see myself as that much of a role player, but I think I must be one. Still, in my mind the GAME comes always first, not my immersion, not my personal needs. This is a game. More important, it is a MMO, which means it is constantly living and developing and changing. Every change affects everyone, there is no room for selfishness and egotism. I always put game mechanics and understanding game as a medium first, and I have very high tolerance for bad writing in games. I don't have to go through hoops to rationalise and find explanations for plot holes, I just accept them as they are because very, very few games have even decent writing behind them. The plot in general might be great, there might be really interesging ideas and potential in the story, but video game writing isn't that great.

But Nathema-story arc went too far, and reached even my limits of tolerance for carbage. On top of that, I lost my favorite character. I have done several playthroughs just for him. I could've leveled my characters without doing all the story for hundredth time, but nope, got to see Theron again.

If what you (whit "you" I mean generally, not you who I quoted) want takes something away from others, and you still do your damnest to push it through, you are a narcissist POS who doesn't see anything else than themselves. Other people don't matter to you. You want what you want, and actually, taking something away from others gives you satisfaction. This is pathological. It is also impossible to get through to these people, so don't bother. Only way to save your character is to make writers see the light, and I don't know if that is even possible. I definitely would want to sit face to face with them and ask "What were you thinking?" and "Where is your spine?"

I understand peoples need to fill plotholes and explain illogical and abnormal character behaviour with their imagination, I do. It can also be seen as just having a conversation with others. But the problem lies here: It allows writers to keep writing carbage. You people never ask writers heads on the spike. You never call them out. You insult the characters, you have ideological wars, you demand that this or that character has to be punished because they are "bad", or other character must get special attention because they are "good". Yet they can't be anything because they don't exist! Every one looks at a character and have their own interpretion of that character. Only writers have the original knowledge of what they wanted to achieve when writing something. When people start to act like characters were real people with their own agenda and thoughts, they stop remembering that behind those characters and story are people who made them, and they are only ones who are accountable for characters actions and what happens in the story.

Like others before me have sayed, it is irresponsible to bring up new romances and LI's and abandon the old ones. Again, this is on the writers. Of course I romanced Arcann when I could, I like complicated characters and from enemies to lovers stories. But Koth has disappeared. Also I have no idea how many other characters need more attention because I haven't romanced them, but it must be plenty. Bioware has a bad habbit now abandoning things when bringing something new on table. I'm sure Arcann-romance won't get more content btw.

I call all players who want any companion to die, for any dumb reason, a troll. And not a very intelligent troll. Why? Because once Bioware caves into their desires, they then **** up the game for the rest of us. I want Quinn alive and well and still my husband. I want there to be more face time with Theron. But because they are now killable for really dumb *********** reasons, we may or may not get them in anything but letters or small bits here and there. I mean, where the hell is Koth? All of my Koth are still alive, but I haven't seen him since early-mid KOTET. I'm tired of players wanting companions dead. Not only that, but they gave us people to romance that I never wanted to. WHY AM I ABLE TO ROMANCE KHEM-VAL??? That is *********** gross. And Jaesa knows I married Quinn, why the hell is she suddenly hitting on me?

It is as much BioWare's fault for 2 reasons: They kept telling us that choices mattered - so people surviving or dying was a choice - sometimes a brutal choice - such as Vette or Torian. - Or the prisoners we rescued.

The second is making a lot more companions romance-able. - That's on the players. I get that the stock choices are not to everyone's taste - and in heroic fiction the hero almost always gets the girl ( or boy or alien)

But going back to the continuing story, it would make more sense to have a new character be the spy/defectot/undercover agent. IT would make more sense for them to have sent minions to crash the train/ steal the plans and run around on Copero &c. Having it all depend on one person that a lot of people (myself included) liked as a character was a really dumb move.

Siome people ( and/or characters) will forgive Theron, others won't stand a traitor ( even if it wasn't actually real) to live - Which makes it hard to write for such differing outcomes and ongoing story.

I expect the community has hundreds of better stories to tell, chapter at a time, but knowing BioWare writing, they'll ignore everything.....Which is a shame, since they've really painted themselves into a corner so many times that it's starting to become comical as they twist and turn with every possible option, only to try to resolve everything at the same point for everyone.

-Would love some input from the writers at this point....

 

I call all players who want any companion to die, for any dumb reason, a troll. And not a very intelligent troll. Why? Because once Bioware caves into their desires, they then **** up the game for the rest of us. I want Quinn alive and well and still my husband. I want there to be more face time with Theron. But because they are now killable for really dumb *********** reasons, we may or may not get them in anything but letters or small bits here and there. I mean, where the hell is Koth? All of my Koth are still alive, but I haven't seen him since early-mid KOTET. I'm tired of players wanting companions dead. Not only that, but they gave us people to romance that I never wanted to. WHY AM I ABLE TO ROMANCE KHEM-VAL??? That is *********** gross. And Jaesa knows I married Quinn, why the hell is she suddenly hitting on me?

Its not just kill options its any 'optional' companion.

Any companion other than those who are forced on you, is never seen again or even mentioned. When you get the chance to try and recruit Darth Malora you completely forget that you have recruited Dr Lokin a geneticist whom she might be interested in working alongside and instead talk about the Hutt because he is forced on everyone and Lokin is an optional so never seen or mentioned again.

So it is not having the kill option that removes them from play it is them being removed or possibly removed from the alliance that removes them from play. So it is all the pro choice people that you are calling trolls. Anyone that says I don't think I should have a particular companion forced into my alliance after they x, y or most likely betrayed me is then causing them to be removed from the story.

How much time do you think Elara is going to get in the story moving forward after she made the choice not to join you because earlier you set off a bomb to cripple your enemy. Or Jaesa who has only returned to one class out of the eight, who can likewise be killed or refused to join.

So its not as some people are fond of saying Edgelords that have removed companions from the story it is the pro choice players that have removed them from the story. And that is not so much them doing it as the devs having so few resources after driving so many subscribers away that they can't afford to devote any time to possible companions when they have master modes and operation bosses to work on.

We are falling into the pattern of being angry that players wanted x character dead, when that is not the problem, the problem is BW's laziness in not continuing to write for characters that a percentage of players wanted dead. Being allowed to kill characters, even for stupid reasons like Quinn, is not a 'bad' choice, it's just bad when BW decides not to write for them because of that, and that's where the concern should be, not over a minority of players demanding something and getting it. It would be like getting mad at players who killed Ardun Kothe in Act 2 of the IA story, if that meant that he'd never come back and offer IAs who spared him a job. Whose fault would that be, again? The writers, obviously.

Yes to this!

I strongly disagree with the fact of wanting characters not to be killable. It makes sense that they are (and yes, I am team Arcann and dislike Ashara a lot... but I hate Quinn even more if this helps ). There can be many reasons for people to spare or like a companion and to want to exile or kill another one. This is part of the way each player sees their characters, depending on their past choices and so on. It makes sense for my character to spare Arcann and then slowly get an interest in him. It makes sense for her to be the kind to decide that Quinn will never be part of her alliance because of what he did in the past (and the fact that he would probably spy for Acina). And I do not care if others think differently, we all have our own story.

The issue is not that players want to be able to get rid of a character that does not correspond to their own story. This should definitely be possible. I find it worse to be stuck with characters that do not make any sense than to be able to kill them or simply tell them to go away. There should actually be other options than kill or let live. Theron could have been taken back from Nathema and put on the first cargo to Coruscant with the instruction to never ever come back to the Alliance anymore. Players should as well be able to decide that they do not leave him to die but instead finish him. I don't care how heartless this can appear, if that is what a player wants to do, it's not my business.

But that should not have an impact on what BW develops afterwards, because any character who can be dead for some can be alive and important for others. The issue here is probably a rational use of limited resources that I can fully understand as a professional. Why concentrate on characters that 10-20% of people still have (I do not say this is the case for Theron, I'd say that his chances to be alive for a player are much higher than that)? Making cutscenes, including the dialogues part is probably expensive. And when specific characters have to say specific things because of their very unique behaviour or position in the story, every single one must have their own, very specific, dialogue. Rationally, I understand that BW cannot do that. And as a player I am frustrated. And I clearly do not see any good solution to have something that pleases everyone that fits with a limited-resources situation.

After reading some posts, I say what I really think about what writes should do.

They should stop listening to players, and they should have never done it in the first place. I've heard often that listening to fans if Biowares strength. I say it is their weakness, and it has been with every game they have made after DAO. That is when they let people put their noses in what happens in the story, and I never liked the results.

Writers are responsible for the story, and it is not a democracy. They shouldn't act like it is.

Players don't know what they want (here I don't speak about game play mechanics, I speak about story content). They change their minds. They follow the hive mind. They are contrarians just to be ones. Today they want this, and tomorrow they want that. Every singe one of them want different things.

I can't phatom why writers let players to dictate what happens in the story. It is their job to write it. Only they know what direction the story is going to have in the future. I also can't phatom why players can't accept the story as the creators of the story make it, and keep demanding something different. This is a huge reason why we are having so damn bad writing now. When writers don't have spine to stay true to themselves and their story, they are constantly making decisions that will make their job even harder.

What makes sense to players doesn't matter. What they want to do with any given companion doesn't matter. Writers should stop trying to please the players. And this definitely includes all "choice matters" people. Choice is irrelevant. Every choice you make in your story is an illusion, if the story itself doesn't change fundamentally because of it. It doesn't matter if Vette or Torian dies. It just means there will never be a future where Vette or Torian will have any meaningful part in future story. I might like to exile Kaliyo, but I also recognise that this choice means that people who like her or romanced her will never experience a future where she has a bigger part in the story. Two years from now there might have been a good opportunity to include her in the main story again. Nope, because she isn't in everyones story anymore.

People who write for SWTOR are professional writers. They trained to be writers. They probably have a degree in it. They probably love writing and wanted to do it for living for that reason. When I blame them from this mess and swear at them for creating it in the first place, I still recognise that they are professional writers and I am not. I do respect them, a lot. Writing isn't the easiest job to have. You can't write without putting something of yourself into it. But yielding to fans demands of this and that you stop taking the responsibility of your writing. Eventually you paint yourself in the corner. Writing for an MMO is tricky because the story is constantly evolving. SWTOR in itself is tricky because it's story is complicated. Letting players dictate what will happen in it makes it just worse.

Or course, it is too late now to fix this. I just had to say this as I see it. They started to listen to players long ago and now we are in this mess. Every new part of the story will be more buggy nonsense than the last one. More companions will disappear, and more new ones will be pushed on us. Every time a new character is introduced, someone wants them as a companion. Writers listen to them, more buggy nonsense will follow. It is an endless spiral down.