I think this is the important distinction. FlatTax is correct that a person who stacks both Experience Point boosts and Renown boosts will earn renown crates faster than someone who does not utilize both, or consumes all their free Experience boosts.

 

Where FlatTax is not correct is in the presumption that a player earning renown crates will gear faster. That is entirely random, and since we don't know the extent of all the sources of amplifiers yet, we really can't conclude that renown crates will be the fastest or even a decently efficient way to acquire these. Whatever the "Charles Points" or "Chux Bux" are going to be will factor in heavily.

 

RNG-protection, as it has been presented in the live streams, seems to apply to gear, and not amplifiers.

 

We also know that the CXP boosts you purchase now with command tokens are as effective in magnitude, if not duration, as the Market ones. I doubt that Renown point boosts bought via in game currency are going away, even if the Command Tokens are. I haven't needed a Market CXP boost in well over a year, I could probably buy at least 30 if not 40 boosts right now with all the Command Tokens I have saved up, which should last me well into 6.0.

 

All that being said, I think FlatTax's argument that "progression is double monetized" is a sensational headline, but not completely without merit. We don't know exactly how much the ratio of Renown XP to Experience Points will be, which of course could lessen the impact of an XP boost (if you only get one renown point for every 1000 xp, for example, then a 15% xp boost won't matter except for big mission turn-ins.) It's something to consider, sure, but its not the clear pay-to-win outcome that FlatTax is claiming.

Let’s talk about that XP-to-CXP conversion:

Using an XP and CXP boost together will net you a 2.5x advantage gearing with Renown crates, regardless of the percentage of XP converted to CXP.

Here’s the math for a 10% conversion, and a 50% conversion, on a 100 XP award. The 1.25 multiplication represents the XP boost, and the x2 multiplication is the CXP boost:

EDIT: Improved the presentation of my math; the conclusion remains unchanged:

10% Conversion:

100x1.25=125 XP (boosted XP value)

125x.1=12.5 CXP (10% conversion)

12.5x2=25 <- Final P2W CXP award (boosted CXP)

25 is two-and-a-half times better than 10 (10% of 100)

50% Conversion:

100x1.25=125 XP (boosted XP value)

125x.5=62.5 CXP (50% conversion)

62.5x2=125 <- Final P2W CXP award (boosted CXP)

125 is two-and-a-half times better than 50 (50% of 100)

Paying to Win: A Cost Analysis! Let’s get some numbers on the board:

Cartel Coins, Low-Efficiency Purchase (250 CC @ $2.99): 83.61 CC/Dollar

Cartel Coins, High-Efficiency Purchase (5500 CC @ $39.99): 137.53 CC/Dollar

XP Boost, Minor (1hr): 60 CC; @ Low/High-Efficiency Exchange Rate: $0.72/$0.44

XP Boost, Major x5 (3hr ea.); 360 CC @ Low/High-Efficiency Exchange Rate: $4.31/$2.62

Major XP Boost cost per hour @ Low/High-Efficiency Exchange Rate: $0.29/$0.17

Sup. CXP x1 (3hr); 300 CC @ Low/High-Efficiency Exchange Rate: $3.59/$2.18

Sup. CXP x1 cost per hour @ Low/High-Efficiency Exchange Rate: $1.20/$0.73

Sup. CXP x5 (3hr ea.); 1050 CC: @ Low/High-Efficiency Exchange Rate: $7.63/$12.56

Sup. CXP x5 cost per hour @ Low/High-Efficiency Exchange Rate: $0.84/$0.51

(Feel free to check my figures; if you believe they’re in error, please show the math, and I’ll be happy to make corrections where warranted)

What’s that tell us?

It lets us calculate our hourly pay-to win costs!

P2W per Hour, Low-Efficiency Purchases: $1.91/hour

P2W per Hour, High-Efficiency Purchases: $0.68/hour

This means less than seven hours of paying to win could double the monthly cost of SWTOR for a subscriber, while delivering 2.5X the Renown gear drops.

If you’re a month-to-month subscriber, your 500 CC ration works out to less than 1 hour 20min of low-efficiency pay-to-win time per month, if that’s how you choose to spend it.

It also shows us paying to win via low-efficiency purchases is almost three times as expensive as high efficiency purchases...

Why would anyone do that (low-efficiency purchases)?

The barrier to entry: Maximum efficiency requires an initial $39.99 purchase of 5,500 CC, to be used for 1,360 CC worth of consumables. The low-efficiency option only requires 360 CC.

Our intuitive assumptions about economies of scale are being taken advantage of to justify low-efficiency sales. It’s a psychological trick (no one’s incurring costs manufacturing individual consumables for shipping, for instance).

Of all things, a Terry Pratchett novel introduced the ‘Boots Theory of Socioeconomic Unfairness,’ which became popular with economists for its plain-English explanation of how small, low-efficiency purchases make being poor more expensive than being better off. It’s worth looking up.

We’re left with the practical effect of SWTOR structured to take advantage of children and other poor people, bringing more disrepute onto products that shouldn’t exist.

Let’s talk about that XP-to-CXP conversion:

Using an XP and CXP boost together will net you a 2.5x advantage gearing with Renown crates, regardless of the percentage of XP converted to CXP.

 

Here’s the math for a 10% conversion, and a 50% conversion, on a 100XP award. The 1.25 multiplication represents the XP boost, and the x2 multiplication is the CXP boost:

 

10% Conversion:

100x.1=10 CXP <-Base CXP, no P2W

10x1.25=12.5

12.5x2=25 CXP <- Final P2W CXP award

25 is two-and-a-half times better than 10

 

50% Conversion:

100x.5=50 CXP <-Base CXP award, no P2W

50x1.25=62.5

62.5x2= 125 CXP <- Final P2W CXP award

125 is two-and-a-half times better than 50

You are wrong, sorry.

You are first ignoring the fact that CXP boost are available to everyone without CC. Then you are double the 25% xp bonus and that is just wrong.

CXP Boost has never, EVER worked like that.

You are using the base as if CXP will double all your gains as if they multiply all other bonus, it does not. It ADDS.

Multiple bonus stacking do not work like Base x 1.bonusA x 1.bonusB x 1.bonusC. They work like this:

Base + Base x 0.bonusA + Base x 0.bonusB + Base x 0.bonusC

To give you some perspective. All the current CXP bonus like Character Perk, Legacy Perk and Guild bonus are NOT doubled by CXP boost. Neither the double Exp event. All are additive. You can test this easy with bonus packs from command crates.

So basically, all your math gets your so called advantage cut by half, then you can even diminish that more because every other bonus available makes the 25% exp bonus from even more tiny. I imagine it would be more closer to 5% extra gain or even less as CXP (renown) conversion from XP will probably mean very little (still testing).

You'd be right if we were stacking bonuses for a single value, but we're not. It's two separate operations.

XP boosts apply only to XP, and XP must be determined before conversion to CXP can occur.

CXP is then doubled by its boost. (And yes, any additional CXP bonuses would be additive only)

The math has to occur as I present it.

EDIT: Improved the presentation of my math; the conclusion remains unchanged:

10% Conversion:

100x1.25=125 XP (boosted XP value)

125x.1=12.5 CXP (10% conversion)

12.5x2=25 <- Final P2W CXP award (boosted CXP)

25 is two-and-a-half times better than 10 (10% of 100)

50% Conversion:

100x1.25=125 XP (boosted XP value)

125x.5=62.5 CXP (50% conversion)

62.5x2=125 <- Final P2W CXP award (boosted CXP)

125 is two-and-a-half times better than 50 (50% of 100)

Is OP assuming that everyone feels P2W is bad? Honestly most games should offer the ability to purchase anything in the game for either cash or via completion of content. Time spent is time spent. Some players have more free time to play, but less money. Others have more money, but less free time due to jobs.

Oh boy. It'd be nice if I could keep a pinned summary at the top of each page for this thread. I have a summary appended to the front of the first post, on page 1. Let's dig in:

When gearing is monetized with MTXs, the un-monetized experience is de facto sabotaged to incentivize financial transactions.

It's offensive for a publisher, after taking $155.88, year over year, to provide a sabotaged 'Premium' experience, and then offer to rent us a solution to a problem of their making. It's reminiscent of the way organized crime used to shake down neighborhoods.

There're also larger moral and cultural concerns associated with paying to win.

The result is an unethical business model, with a vast pool of subscribers having a second-class experience, while Electronic Arts goes whaling.

See above about the 'Boots Theory of Socioeconomic Unfairness,' four posts up.

Dude why did you bring this back to the first page? Just let it die and go back to the 2nd or 3rd page. All you are doing is giving him the exposure he wants. Let it go. Honestly, it is time the mods do their freaking jobs and either lock this thread, or put it into the suggestions folder or off topic. I know this is the last time I am responding to it, help us out here.l

Mods are too busy warning people over little stupid stuff to deal with this :rolleyes:

Oh boy. It'd be nice if I could keep a pinned summary at the top of each page for this thread. I have a summary appended to the front of the first post, on page 1. Let's dig in:

 

When gearing is monetized with MTXs, the un-monetized experience is de facto sabotaged to incentivize financial transactions.

 

It's offensive for a publisher, after taking $155.88, year over year, to provide a sabotaged 'Premium' experience, and then offer to rent us a solution to a problem of their making. It's reminiscent of the way organized crime used to shake down neighborhoods.

 

There're also larger moral and cultural concerns associated with paying to win.

 

The result is an unethical business model, with a vast pool of subscribers having a second-class experience, while Electronic Arts goes whaling.

 

See above about the 'Boots Theory of Socioeconomic Unfairness,' four posts up.

Time is money. The Boots theory also applies to availability of time, in some respects. Those with more time available can spend their time however they wish - wisely or poorly (just like the rich people CAN purchase less expensive boots) - which can include finding optimal groups to gear up, complete achievements, etc. Much quicker - whatever their ultimate goal is. They can also use their free time (lack of obligation to a job) to still make money to or save money to be able to take advantage of the pay to llay option, were it available.

Personally, i believe if they did offer pay to play on items that actually impact play/balance, the p2p version should only become available after its acquired by at least 1 person via in-game means, as not to ruin the gaming experience.

I did some testing because I could.

On Ossus, on the PTS, the base renown for most missions is 6,657 points (as per the mission log) with no boosts or modifiers of any kind. I had a +25% XP boost (Major Experience Boost) and a +100% renown boost (Superior Renown Boost). Starting with no boosts applied completing a mission resulted in 6,657 renown, as expected. For kills I was getting 90 renown for a standard mob and 262 renown for a strong mob. Then I applied the +25% XP boost. Upon application of the XP boost the renown listed in the mission log increased to 7,611 points. Upon completion I was awarded 7,611 renown. Kills while under the +25% XP boost increased to 105 renown for a standard mob and 307 renown for a strong mob. I now applied the +100% renown boost on top of the +25% XP boost. Upon application of the renown boost the renown listed in the mission log increased to 13,988 points. Upon completion of the mission I was awarded 16,940 renown. Kills while under the +25% XP boost and 100% renown boost increased to 198 renown for a standard mob and 553 renown for a strong mob.

Here are those numbers again without the narrative.

[color="Black"].........................[/color]Mission:[color="Black"]..........[/color]Standard:[color="black"].........[/color]Strong:
Base:[color="black"].................[/color]6,657[color="black"]..............[/color]90[color="black"]....................[/color]262
+25% XP[color="black"]:...........[/color]7,611[color="black"].............[/color]105[color="black"]...................[/color]307
+100% RXP[color="black"]:......[/color]16,940[color="black"]...........[/color]198[color="black"]...................[/color]553

I'm no rocket surgeon or brain scientist so I'll let others argue and haggle out how 1+1=3.

Then I decided to run Hammer Station on VM (since that's where SoW is implemented). For that completion I received 121,911 renown with both boosts running (that's a cumulative total of mission reward, renown from kills, and bonus renown drops from bosses). Alone that is not enough to get you a renown rank as renown ranks are 180k points each level. So you'd have to run HS VM twice to get one renown crate. I already had some renown points so with what I received for that HS completion I did gain a renown rank. So what was the result. 18 pieces of gear from HS, several of which were actual upgrades (not pieces marked as an upgrade even though they're not). Included in there was a tactical item and a couple mods, and that doesn't take into consideration all of the mats that dropped, as well. What did I get from that renown crate? One piece of gear that was lower rating than what I was already wearing. Of the renown crates I have been getting, which have not been many because each rank is 180,000 points, most only have one piece of gear. One had two pieces of gear. I'm only counting those that I've received since renown crates were fixed and not the broken ones from phase 1 that would drop 15-20 pieces of gear.

So yes, while FlatTax is technically correct in that if one were to use both an XP boost and a renown boost in conjunction they would gain renown faster resulting in more renown crates and thus more gear; in practice... meh. With both boosts one would need to run HM vet twice to gain a single renown crate while a single HS vet completion would net between 10 and 20 pieces of gear and those two completions between 20-40 pieces of gear. Is the person who doubled up on both boosts getting more gear? Yeah, one to two pieces more. So is it worth it. Well that's up to each individual to decide. At the CC cost of XP boosts I absolutely think it is not worth it. If you want to do that because you want to get gear one or two pieces faster go ahead; it's your CC.

BTW, renown boosts can still be purchased in game in the same way that CXP boosts can now. They cost 190 tech fragments and 50k credits. Are you going to want to spend your tech frags on RXP boosts? Probably not because we'll be earning tech frags slower than command tokens, and tech frags are used to purchase gear at a cost of 250-375 per piece of random gear from Takanna and 1000-2000 per piece of gear (plus 500k-1mil credits) from Kai.

So can you do it FlatTax's way? Yeah. Should you? I don't see why you would when you're already going to get several pieces of gear from just running VM HS not to mention the gear boxes from doing Onderon. Are those one or two more pieces of gear worth it? Again, that's an individual decision, but I think it's a waste of CC and tech frags.

I did some testing because I could.

 

On Ossus, on the PTS, the base renown for most missions is 6,657 points (as per the mission log) with no boosts or modifiers of any kind. I had a +25% XP boost (Major Experience Boost) and a +100% renown boost (Superior Renown Boost). Starting with no boosts applied completing a mission resulted in 6,657 renown, as expected. For kills I was getting 90 renown for a standard mob and 262 renown for a strong mob. Then I applied the +25% XP boost. Upon application of the XP boost the renown listed in the mission log increased to 7,611 points. Upon completion I was awarded 7,611 renown. Kills while under the +25% XP boost increased to 105 renown for a standard mob and 307 renown for a strong mob. I now applied the +100% renown boost on top of the +25% XP boost. Upon application of the renown boost the renown listed in the mission log increased to 13,988 points. Upon completion of the mission I was awarded 16,940 renown. Kills while under the +25% XP boost and 100% renown boost increased to 198 renown for a standard mob and 553 renown for a strong mob.

 

Here are those numbers again without the narrative.

[color="Black"].........................[/color]Mission:[color="Black"]..........[/color]Standard:[color="black"].........[/color]Strong:
Base:[color="black"].................[/color]6,657[color="black"]..............[/color]90[color="black"]....................[/color]262
+25% XP[color="black"]:...........[/color]7,611[color="black"].............[/color]105[color="black"]...................[/color]307
+100% RXP[color="black"]:......[/color]16,940[color="black"]...........[/color]198[color="black"]...................[/color]553

 

I'm no rocket surgeon or brain scientist so I'll let others argue and haggle out how 1+1=3.

 

 

Then I decided to run Hammer Station on VM (since that's where SoW is implemented). For that completion I received 121,911 renown with both boosts running (that's a cumulative total of mission reward, renown from kills, and bonus renown drops from bosses). Alone that is not enough to get you a renown rank as renown ranks are 180k points each level. So you'd have to run HS VM twice to get one renown crate. I already had some renown points so with what I received for that HS completion I did gain a renown rank. So what was the result. 18 pieces of gear from HS, several of which were actual upgrades (not pieces marked as an upgrade even though they're not). Included in there was a tactical item and a couple mods, and that doesn't take into consideration all of the mats that dropped, as well. What did I get from that renown crate? One piece of gear that was lower rating than what I was already wearing. Of the renown crates I have been getting, which have not been many because each rank is 180,000 points, most only have one piece of gear. One had two pieces of gear. I'm only counting those that I've received since renown crates were fixed and not the broken ones from phase 1 that would drop 15-20 pieces of gear.

 

So yes, while FlatTax is technically correct in that if one were to use both an XP boost and a renown boost in conjunction they would gain renown faster resulting in more renown crates and thus more gear; in practice... meh. With both boosts one would need to run HM vet twice to gain a single renown crate while a single HS vet completion would net between 10 and 20 pieces of gear and those two completions between 20-40 pieces of gear. Is the person who doubled up on both boosts getting more gear? Yeah, one to two pieces more. So is it worth it. Well that's up to each individual to decide. At the CC cost of XP boosts I absolutely think it is not worth it. If you want to do that because you want to get gear one or two pieces faster go ahead; it's your CC.

 

BTW, renown boosts can still be purchased in game in the same way that CXP boosts can now. They cost 190 tech fragments and 50k credits. Are you going to want to spend your tech frags on RXP boosts? Probably not because we'll be earning tech frags slower than command tokens, and tech frags are used to purchase gear at a cost of 250-375 per piece of random gear from Takanna and 1000-2000 per piece of gear (plus 500k-1mil credits) from Kai.

 

So can you do it FlatTax's way? Yeah. Should you? I don't see why you would when you're already going to get several pieces of gear from just running VM HS not to mention the gear boxes from doing Onderon. Are those one or two more pieces of gear worth it? Again, that's an individual decision, but I think it's a waste of CC and tech frags.

Thanks for the contribution! The mission totals validate my math, and actually produced a x2.54 advantage. Perhaps rounding errors account for the variance (almost exactly 1%).

This is the monetized gearing system, so I suspect they're not putting all their cards on the table with the PTS. Renown crates will probably become richer after launch and, critically, be a source of tech fragments to facilitate direct purchase of set pieces and tacticals.

Time will tell!

Thanks for the contribution! The mission totals validate my math, and actually produced a x2.54 advantage. Perhaps rounding errors account for the variance (almost exactly 1%).

 

This is the monetized gearing system, so I suspect they're not putting all their cards on the table with the PTS. Renown crates will probably become richer after launch and, critically, be a source of tech fragments to facilitate direct purchase of set pieces and tacticals.

 

Time will tell!

Sure Bob.

Renown crates will probably become richer after launch and, critically, be a source of tech fragments to facilitate direct purchase of set pieces and tacticals.

 

Time will tell!

At thia moment there are more chances for renown system to be abandoned completely than to become relevant for gearing.