What the title said.

Care of Angelsfluttershy.

Reference: page 13 post #124

First off I'd like to say I'm not picking on Paowee or anyone else, just his above posts hold a theme that a few posters seem to be supporting.

 

I'm getting the feeling that some of the players are supporting the brainstormed change to Laze Target that the Devs threw out because they'd take anything over nothing. As Paowee said, they threw us a bone on a string and we're chasing it, but is that how we really want to treat this opportunity? The Devs answered our question about Laze Target and showed that they'd be open for altering the ability a bit to better fit its designed purpose, but many of you are acting like the whole combat team sat down and gave us an ultimatum. I'm sure whoever sat down and wrote that question put that out there just to show us something they could do with it, not something they would or wanted to do with it in the first place.

 

I would suggest we take advantage of this opportunity, not just stop here. The community team gave us the platform to ask questions, the combat team answered our questions with an open-ended response for us to retort, and now its up to us to continue the discussion. Why stop at a suggestion they just came up with to flesh out their answer? Why can't we have a developing conversation about the purpose of Laze Target and what alterations could make it fit its designed purpose better? We already know that class balancing won't be coming until 2.5-2.6, so we have a lot of time to hold a strong discussion that would help the ability develop into something we can all be very happy with.

 

Let's put in the extra effort the combat team is and continue the discussion so we can go back to them with some really great input. Not only could this improve Laze Target beyond what was initially suggested, but this would set a precedent for the future where more back and forth between the combat team and player community could take place. We've got nothing to lose here and everything to gain.

Great post by Angel, which are my thoughts but not able to articulate

 

Really appreciate how much time and effort Paowee spend to support the Sniper/Slinger community. Also, we have a great collection of level headed people in here. Kudos to you all!

I think the best way to go about this is to submit it alongside http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=674592. From experience they usually respond a week later.

In order to have effective, easy to read suggestions, this post details the format and parameters of Laze Target/Smuggler's Luck suggestion submission. If you're interested in submitting your own suggestion for changing our offensive cooldown, please read the following before posting. Following this post will help me, you, and everyone else (including the devs).

Suggestion Parameters: While brainstorming ideas for your change to LazeTarget/Smuggler's Luck, please keep the following in mind:

• Keep to the purpose of Laze Target: From how the combat team answered our top three questions for 8/2 and how the ability operates in PvP and PvE, we can infer the intended purpose of Laze Target:
  
  • The purpose of Laze Target/Smuggler's Luck is to offer extra burst, give an additional push when focusing a target in PvP, and increase a Sniper/Gunslinger's sustained damage in PvE with perfect play.(additional wording thanks to B-Dick, post #133 in the Sniper/Gunslinger Initiative thread)

  Before submitting your suggestion, please make sure that it fits the designed purpose of Laze Target. If it does not match the purpose, then it isn't Laze Target.

  [*]Do not re-purpose Laze Target: Keeping the above in mind, please do not try to re-purpose Laze Target in your suggestion. This ability already has a designed purpose and we are not looking to change that, we're only trying to improve Laze Target so it accomplishes its job reasonably.

  [*]Reasonableness in terms of Class Balance: Remember Sniper and Gunslingers, there are still 6 other classes and 14 other Advanced Classes in this game. While we want Laze Target to be a good cooldown worth its place on our quickbars, we don't want to upset the delicate balance that the combat team is trying to achieve/maintain. If your suggestion boosts the damage of Snipe as well as making it auto-crit, there has to be a drawback, like a longer cooldown. This process is give and take, don't expect the cookie jar to still be full after enjoying a few tasty treats.

  [*]Reasonableness in terms of Technical Implementation: Sadly, the sky isn't the limit when it comes to implementing changes to the game. While having Laze Target do five different things looks cool on paper, it could become a nightmare to implement with the possibility of causing more bugs, lowering game performance, and whatever else is susceptible to break. The Hero Engine isn't unbreakable, please be gentle with it.

Submission Format: Formatting will make your suggestion easy to follow, clear, and help me a ton in organization. For the purpose of fairness clarity, I require that all suggestions meet the following format and have all points listed here covered in your posted suggestion. If something little like Laze Target buff duration is left out, I'll assume you want to keep the default. However, if something important like the duration of the cooldown is absent from your post, I will not put it up in notable suggestions.

I will not post suggestions in the notable column that do not meet the format. This isn't me being picky, I want to ensure that I don't read a suggestion and post it without knowing the author's feelings (i.e. someone may be still brainstorming and drafting a suggestion and I take their rough draft and put it up instead of their final). Below is the format for which I'd like all submissions to be submitted in:

Laze Target/Smuggler's Luck Suggestion

• Cooldown Duration: <How long will Laze Target be set on cooldown after activation?>
  
• Buff Up-Time: <How long will the window of opportunity be to use Laze Target after being activated?>
  
• Ability Description: <What will your Laze Target do? What abilities will it effect and how?>
  
• Reasoning and Explanation for the Change: <How does your Laze Target fill the ability's designed purpose? Why is this change necessary? Why is this change not too strong? Does this improve Laze Target for PvE and PvP?>
  

Example Submission using the current Laze Target/Smuggler's Luck:

Laze Target/Smuggler's Luck Suggestion

• Cooldown Duration: 1 minute
  
• Buff Up-Time: 25 seconds
  
• Ability Description: Increases the critical hit chance of your next Snipe by 100%
  
• Reasoning and Explanation for the Change: Having an offensive cooldown with a minute cooldown duration offers much in the form of utility. A minute cooldown prevents this ability from being up too often in PvP, but usually allows it to be available when needed. It also regulates the sustained damage increased in PvE so that it doesn't create a large gap between other DPS classes.
   
  The auto-crit of Snipe will help to push well defended enemies into execute range in PvP. The critical itself will assist in bypassing some of a tank player's defenses. The cooldown can prove useful in PvE burst damage situations too. When used in conjunction with relics, adrenal, and Tactical Advantage it can help push through an Operation boss burn phase. However, the one guaranteed critical on Snipe every minute is very small DPS boost over the course of an Operation encounter. so it will create little to no DPS disparity between other DPS classes.
  

Thanks for reading, if you have any suggestions for the format or parameters for making the notable suggestions, please feel free to post in this thread and I'll get back to you ASAP! If you have any questions please see the FAQ below before asking me. Remember, this thread is also a discussion zone, so please don't hesitate to talk about suggestions with each other and refine your own ideas so we can come up with something awesome!

FAQ for "Formatting and Parameters" section:

Below are player suggestions for changes to Laze Target which are reasonable, well-written, and actively discussed by other players in this thread or its partner thread, [sniper Gunslinger Initiative] An opportunity to change Laze Target presents itself.

Purpose: The purpose of this section is to help readers get a quick synopsis of the Sniper and Gunslinger communities' ideas without having to read every post in this thread.

Lazed Target/Smuggler's Luck Suggestion: Submitted by greg_biochem (aka Red'october); see post #8

• Cooldown Duration: 2 minutes 15 sec

• Buff Up-Time: 25 seconds

• Ability Description: Increases the critical hit chance of your next SoS / Cull channel by 100%

• Reasoning and Explanation for the Change: Larger on-demand burst without an overall buff to sustained damage (doubt that would ever happen), and *relative* balance between specs. A Lazed SoS / Cull channel would do a bit more than double the damage of a Lazed Snipe, so the suggested cooldown is more than twice the current one.

Lazed Target/Smuggler's Luck Suggestion: Created by B-Dick and formatted by Angelfluttershy; see post #125, post #133 and post #135 in the Initiative thread

• Cooldown Duration: 2-3 minutes

• Buff Up-Time: 25 seconds

• Ability Description: Increases the critical hit chance of your next Ambush, Series of Shots, Explosive Probe, Takedown or Cull by 100% and makes it unable to be intercepted, avoided or mitigated by abilities that provide partial protection.

• Reasoning and Explanation for the Change: (Summarized by Angelfluttershy) Flexible, on-demand burst that benefits all specs. The sustained damage benefit will not be altered for PvE while a significant utility boost for PvP is gained in the form of ignoring a target's Guard. This will assist in picking off well-defended targets in PvP. The increased cooldown will also ensure that the ability isn't up too often to become overwhelming.

Laze Target/Smuggler's Luck Suggestion: Submitted by Whojoo; see post #16

• Cooldown Duration: 2 minutes 30 seconds
  
• Buff Up-Time: 10 seconds
  
• Ability Description: Makes your next Ambush - Aimed shot usable out of cover and cast instantly.
  
• Reasoning and Explanation for the change: The first thought is to add more damage during movement. Second thought to add a bit more on demand burst.
  Both PvP and PvE contain a lot of movement. But some times there's still that one add wandering or there is that one guy with low health. This way you can run around and use Ambush - Aimed shot without having to stop moving.
  It can also help with a burst. If you need to take down that add quickly, use SoS - SS followed by an instant Ambush - Aimed shot to finish the add.
  I can see it help for PvP too in the same way. People will probably think of some strong bursts.
   
  There needs to be one more addition though for balance sake. Recoil Control (Tier 5 in skill tree Marksmanship - Sharpshooter) needs a change. It needs to add the following line.
  In addition a debuff will be activated when Laze Target - Smuggler's Luck is active. This prevents Recoil Control from triggering.
  This will prevent a huge dps increase for Marksmanship - Sharpshooter.
   
  Summery:
  This will give each tree an on the move ability which they can combine for an increase in burst damage. The cooldown is long enough to keep it out of the actual rotation.
  Marksmanship - Sharpshooter can't use it in it's rotation due to the debuff Recoil Control will give. Only option is on the move or to burst down an add.
  Engineering - Saboteur could use it in their rotation. The cooldown however prevents it from adding a lot of dps.
  Lethality - Dirty Fighting and Hybrid Can use it on the run or to finish something off after the second Cull - Wounding Shots.
  

Laze Target/Smuggler's Luck Suggestion: Submitted by artikulieren; see post #26

• Cooldown Duration: 1 minute and 30 seconds
  
• Buff Up-Time: 20 seconds
  
• Ability Description: Places 2 stacks of a non-cleansable debuff on target that reduce the energy cost of the next 2 Snipes on target by 5 and allows the 2 Snipes to be cast instantly and usuable only when out-of-cover(casting Snipe while in cover doesn't remove the debuff) The cool down timer begins when either;
  a) the 2 stacks are consumed or
  b) when the buff-up timer expires regardless of whether any Snipes were discharged.
   
  Also, the 2 Snipes this ability grants, ignore the global cool down and have an internal timer of 1 second between both shots, similar to how Shoulder Cannon works for PTs/VGs.
   
   
  
• Reasoning and Explanation for the Change: In the time I've played my Sniper I haven't yearned for more burst. But it seems that that's one of our concerns. And while I find the present Laze Target rather lackluster, I would be hesitant to request for a massive improvement. Hence this suggestion. While perhaps lacking and flawed in ways I haven't considered. I believe it would improve both PvE and PvP.

Laze Target/Smuggler's Luck Suggestion: Submitted by Angelfluttershy; see post #31

• Cooldown Duration: 1min 30 seconds
  
• Buff Up-Time: 25 seconds
  
• Ability Description: Increases the critical hit chance of your next Snipe by 100%.
  
  • When talent points are allocated into the Marksmanship tree, a talent also grants Laze Target the ability to make the next Snipe also deal an additional 55% more damage.
    
  • When talent points are allocated into the Engineering tree, a talent that also grants Laze Target the ability to make the next Snipe apply 3 stacks of Electrified Railgun and causes the Agent's next 4 physical effects to receive a 100% damage increase and have a 100% critical hit chance on the afflicted target (i.e. the next 4 ticks from Electrified Railgun will do 100% more damage and will be a critical hit for each tick on the target afflicted by Laze Target).
    
  • When talent points are allocated into the Lethality tree, a talent that also grants Laze Target the ability to cause the next Snipe to cull the target for XXX additional internal damage (this internal damage is identical to Cull's additional internal damage for one second plus 5% damage to the base internal damage) for each poison effect present on the target with a 100% critical hit chance (i.e. the Snipe and each culled damage attack has a 100% chance to critically hit the target).
    

  [*]Reasoning and Explanation for the Change: Augmenting the current effects of Laze Target to better suit each specialization will help to fill its purpose of offering extra burst while giving 36-point specializations more merit than Hybrids. This will also help to diversify gameplay style between the specializations making them play more uniquely.

   

  My goal with this suggestion is to prevent doubling the cooldown of Laze Target as I believe the shorter cooldown of this ability is what makes it useful and unique. Giving it only a bit more damage in exchange for a minimal cooldown increase should satisfy most parties.

Laze Target/Smuggler's Luck Suggestion: Submitted by BetaKiller; see post #32

• Cooldown Duration:
  2-3 minutes
  
  
• Buff Up-Time:
  10 seconds
  
  
• Ability Description:
  Laze Target places a Laze buff into self, next Ambush, Explosive Probe or Takedown consumes it. If Ambush consumes the buff, 2 stacks of Zeroing Shots are given to self. If Explosive Probe consumes it, a second Explosive Probe that deals 50% of the damage will be placed on the target. If Takedown consumes it, Takedown critical chance will increase to 100%.
  
  
   
  
  
• Reasoning and Explanation for the Change:
  
  
  The critical hit mechanic although rewarding is very simple and sometimes deceiving. As of now Laze Target increases Snipe crit chance to 100% which sounds good and looks good but in the end rewards little for smart plays. Snipe is a weak hitting skill and lacks additional gameplay value to feel anything but a filler and Laze Target as a skill is hurt by this.
  
  
   
  
  
  The change proposed here is aimed at rewarding the player for choosing the right moment to use Laze Target. It will fill its purpose for both PvP and PvE and any spec will benefit. Burst will be possible as an opener with the 1.5s Ambush, the 150% Explosive Probe damage in 3 GCD or the auto-crit Takedown for finishing (or additional burst for Lethality). While improving the PvE sustained damage on skills that are important in each spec rotation. On a 5min battle MM would have a faster startup followed up by an EP or Takedown depending on boss health, Eng/Hybrid would have a gain in damage and energy regeneration since the second Probe would behave as a Probe applying Cluster Bombs while Lethality would have an increase in Takedown damage twice or thrice in the fight.
  
  
   
  
  
  On the technical side this seems doable since a buff consumed by a skill exists (FT), to change the behavior would be a conditional case in the program (possibly the most challenging part though) and a weaker version of Explosive Probe buff could be applied just like the weaker versions of Corrosive Dart/Grenade.
  
  
  Some points that do need discussion are the % damage of the second Explosive Probe, probably it needs to tone down to 30% given the extra regeneration another point is the 100% crit on Takedown, personally I would prefer an extra % on armor penetration like 30-50% it will act as a critical hit but not prone to surge stacking builds.

  
  

FAQ for "Notable Suggestions" section:

I think it would be nice if the change did something series of shots because it is a key part of every spec.

I would also like to thank Paowee for how much time and effort he has put into this class.

I think it would be nice if the change did something series of shots because it is a key part of every spec.

 

I would also like to thank Paowee for how much time and effort he has put into this class.

Problem is that this is a level 10 talent, so having it effect a lvl 36 ability is kinda counter intuitive

tbh changing this would make lowbie pvp derp easy, nothin like a free 10k hit. But who cares about lowbies lol

Lazed Target/Smuggler's Luck Suggestion

• Cooldown Duration: 2 minutes 15 sec

• Buff Up-Time: 25 seconds

• Ability Description: Increases the critical hit chance of your next SoS / Cull channel by 100%

• Reasoning and Explanation for the Change: Larger on-demand burst without an overall buff to sustained damage (doubt that would ever happen), and *relative* balance between specs. A Lazed SoS / Cull channel would do a bit more than double the damage of a Lazed Snipe, so the suggested cooldown is more than twice the current one.

In my opinion, there's no way Snipers are going to get a buff to sustained damage. So with any suggested change, I look for a way it could be balanced for spec equality and to avoid giving Snipers an overall buff.

According to these parses (each was in full 72 gear)...

... Lazed Snipe does about ~ 5.5 - 6k damage

Then...

An Ambush Crit does 8 - 9k damage (8.5 - 9.5k in MM)

A Takedown crit does 7 - 8k damage

An EP crit does ~ 7k damage (11 - 12k with crits to all 4 Cluster Bombs)

A SoS Channel with all crits does 11 - 12k damage (13 - 14k with MM surge talent)

A Cull Channel with all crits does 13 - 14k damage

... so ~ 1 min 20 sec CD (Ambush / Takedown / EP without cluster bombs) for balance?

Or ~ 2 min 15 sec CD (SoS / Cull / EP with cluster bombs) for balance?

One seems to benefit MM more than the other specs, the other benefits full Eng far less than the other specs. I voted in favor of the 'dev suggested' change in the other thread (my vote there still stands), but if it would be considered I would prefer the SoS / Cull suggestion - partly because full Eng already has Scatter Bombs.

Note: Not all attacks interact with armor the same way, so to figure out crit damage, I looked through my logs instead of simply multiplying the tooltip damage by 170%. Feel free to let me know if there is a more accurate way

I pretty much agree with red'october here. I think though, that we should have:

Laze Target: 2.5 minute cool down

MM: Auto crit for all SoS hits

Engineering: EP crits, adds one scatter bomb

Lethality: Cull adds one bleed affect, or all it's hits crit. Whichever one. I also think to help kill Hybrid, they could make it where for Lethality instead of buffing cull it puts OS off cooldown, and makes it free.

Lazed Target/Smuggler's Luck Suggestion

• Cooldown Duration: 2 minutes 15 sec

• Buff Up-Time: 25 seconds

• Ability Description: Increases the critical hit chance of your next SoS / Cull channel by 100%

• Reasoning and Explanation for the Change: Larger on-demand burst without an overall buff to sustained damage (doubt that would ever happen), and *relative* balance between specs. A Lazed SoS / Cull channel would do a bit more than double the damage of a Lazed Snipe, so the suggested cooldown is more than twice the current one.

 

In my opinion, there's no way Snipers are going to get a buff to sustained damage. So with any suggested change, I look for a way it could be balanced for spec equality and to avoid giving Snipers an overall buff.

 

According to these parses (each was in full 72 gear)...

 

Hybrid: http://www.torparse.com/a/377263/2/0/Damage+Dealt

MM: http://www.torparse.com/a/377183/1/0/Damage+Dealt

Lethality: http://www.torparse.com/a/389673/8/0/Damage+Dealt

 

 

... Lazed Snipe does about ~ 5.5 - 6k damage

 

Then...

 

An Ambush Crit does 8 - 9k damage (8.5 - 9.5k in MM)

A Takedown crit does 7 - 8k damage

An EP crit does ~ 7k damage (11 - 12k with crits to all 4 Cluster Bombs)

A SoS Channel with all crits does 11 - 12k damage (13 - 14k with MM surge talent)

A Cull Channel with all crits does 13 - 14k damage

 

... so ~ 1 min 20 sec CD (Ambush / Takedown / EP without cluster bombs) for balance?

Or ~ 2 min 15 sec CD (SoS / Cull / EP with cluster bombs) for balance?

 

One seems to benefit MM more than the other specs, the other benefits full Eng far less than the other specs. I voted in favor of the 'dev suggested' change in the other thread (my vote there still stands), but if it would be considered I would prefer the SoS / Cull suggestion - partly because full Eng already has Scatter Bombs.

 

 

Note: Not all attacks interact with armor the same way, so to figure out crit damage, I looked through my logs instead of simply multiplying the tooltip damage by 170%. Feel free to let me know if there is a more accurate way

I agree with not buffing Laze Target's effect on sustained damage, it's unnecessary currently and could devalue some possible alterations. Thanks for throwing up some parsed numbers to back up your change, statistics are always appreciated here!

My only thought is the same as CJNJ's, Laze Target is a level 10 talent that would be effecting only level 30+ abilities with your suggestion. Would you think changing the level the talent is learned at to match the level Series of Shots is learned to be a fair trade for the new effect, or could it still apply to Snipe in addition to Series of Shots and Cull? Personally, I don't see moving the talent up 20+ levels to be a big issue, it was never crucial for leveling so the downside should be very minor.

Great suggestion though so I added it to the notables.

I pretty much agree with red'october here. I think though, that we should have:

Laze Target: 2.5 minute cool down

 

MM: Auto crit for all SoS hits

 

Engineering: EP crits, adds one scatter bomb

 

Lethality: Cull adds one bleed affect, or all it's hits crit. Whichever one. I also think to help kill Hybrid, they could make it where for Lethality instead of buffing cull it puts OS off cooldown, and makes it free.

Would these effects be innate to Laze Target, or would you have to spec into the alterations within each tree? I'd imagine the latter as these effects being innate would vastly benefit the Lethality/Engineering build as it would be double-dipping (i.e. can use Laze Target to effect the right ability in the needed situation). Also, would the Scatter Bombs be auto-crits as well or just EP? If the Scatter Bombs auto-crit adding one additional bomb would be a bit overkill.

Putting Orbital Strike off cooldown and making it free would warrant a larger downside for the ability, the cooldown would have to be greater than three minutes for sure as you could have two OS's up back-to-back. This would be a huge sustained DPS and damage increase, and I don't think the negatives would outweigh the positives here.

EDIT: I also added B-Dick's suggestion from the initiative thread to the notable suggestions with my own formatting. If you'd like it changed in any way B-Dick, please let me know by sending your suggestion in the same format.

There is only one 's' in Angelfluttershy.

Second suggestion is cringe worthy. Not because it is a bad idea but because it would require a lot of code tweaks to ignore things such as guard. And the more code tweaks the more chance to introduce bugs. First idea is very well thought out.

Second suggestion is cringe worthy. Not because it is a bad idea but because it would require a lot of code tweaks to ignore things such as guard. And the more code tweaks the more chance to introduce bugs.

I'm not sure how exactly these things are coded, so I can't tell if it would be hard or not.

But there is a large number of attacks that ignore protective abilities, primarily seen in PvE, and PvE is also home to a lot of far more esoteric mechanics. If a boss fight effect can be done this way, I suspect a player attack can be too.

Either way, whether it is difficult to code or not, I believe it would be up to the developers to shoot it down - "Sorry, hard to code" - if it is hard to code. As players we should care about what we would like done.

A SoS Channel with all crits does 11 - 12k damage (13 - 14k with MM surge talent)

A Cull Channel with all crits does 13 - 14k damage

For MM, that surge talent is mandatory, you can't skip it, so let's count SoS as 13-14k if used on-spec.

This just goes to the point that applying it to Cull is not OP. For one, Cull is a considerably more expensive, less reliable and overall less versatile talent.

* Cull has to be set up and timed - so both poison effects are applied, and not cleansed - to do full damage.

* Cull with setup consumes a lot of energy - 10 for CG, 16 for CD, 25 for the Cull itself - a total of 41.

* Cull is rear-loaded - you do the most damage between 3 and 6 seconds.

* Cull against adds or low-HP represents a DPS loss - poison effects spent on now-dead targets.

There are times you won't be able to use or fully benefit from Cull, because your DoTs have been cleansed, or because you ran out of energy, or because the target was killed while you were setting up. And you will hurt your DPS and energy management by spreading Cull on mobs or using it when you're in the lower bracket.

In contrast, you're never going to be so low on energy that you can't afford Series of Shots, it starts at its full damage right away, it's cheap to switch targets, and its cooldown can be instantly reset by Sniper Volley.

This goes to show that anything that affects SoS should affect Cull. Anything less would be nerfing the Leth spec even further (as shown by the parse, it's the lowest sustained DPS, and other practice confirms it), only helping MM. I just wanted to preempt any suggestions of removing Cull from the list.

This said, for flexibility's sake, I'd prefer it to affect other talents - including EP, Snipe, Ambush. One reason is that, indeed, Laze is a low level ability, so it should affect low level attacks, it can't just sit there till much later.

Another reason is flexibility; using LT on Ambush would be a waste of DPS, but let players choose if they want to waste that DPS in favor of what it is they deem more important.

1. I am not aware of any current player ability that ignores a guard and/or all moderate defensive cooldowns (some ignore a few because of attack type). If none currently exist, giving Snipers one would be a huge buff that I'm sure other classes would be upset about... I just don't think it is realistic.

2. If the new Lazed Target increases the crit of nearly everything (Snipe, Ambush, Takedown, EP, SoS, and Cull) players would only use it for SoS or Cull (maybe Ambush?) because the other abilities do significantly less damage. The only time you would ever activate it for a different attack would be while leveling...

3. As for CJNJ's point: I wouldn't mind having the ability learned at a higher level, or even including Ambush to make it somewhat useful for leveling (opening on an elite with an ambush crit should be helpful, right?)... but I don't think it adds to the overall effectiveness of the ability.

1. I am not aware of any current player ability that ignores a guard and/or all moderate defensive cooldowns (some ignore a few because of attack type). If none currently exist, giving Snipers one would be a huge buff that I'm sure other classes would be upset about...

Yes, it would be a buff for PvP (and PvP only). That's the idea; snipers and gunslingers have been being phased out of competitive PvP since 2.0 if not 1.7, Arenas are just finishing them off.

Juggs and Maras have their overpowered Smash. Powertechs have their Shoulder Cannon that can be used out of stun (nothing else can). Operatives have their super-roll and stealth. If implemented, it will give Snipers their special something that you might consider a Sniper DPS composition for. It's just one shot, you're not going to kill people left and right with it, just occasionally catch an overconfident opponent who let his health get into execute range.

The three classes left behind - Sorcerers, Assassins, Mercenaries - should work on suggestions for their own strong points that will make them worthwhile. All denying Snipers any special PvP talents accomplishes is keep the list of PvP classes down to just 4 instead of 5, and who really wants that?

2. If the new Lazed Target increases the crit of nearly everything (Snipe, Ambush, Takedown, EP, SoS, and Cull) players would only use it for SoS or Cull (maybe Ambush?) because the other abilities do significantly less damage. The only time you would ever activate it for a different attack would be while leveling...

Pretty much. I don't see anything wrong with it. It's just how every other early-game offensive buff works, at first you don't have quite as much use for it.

Yes, it would be a significant buff for PvP (and PvP only). That's the idea; snipers and gunslingers have been being phased out of competitive PvP since 2.0 if not 1.7, Arenas are just finishing them off.

 

Juggs and Maras have their overpowered Smash. Powertechs have their Shoulder Cannon that can be used out of stun (nothing else can). Operatives have their super-roll and stealth. If implemented, it will give Snipers their special something that you might consider a Sniper DPS composition for.

My concern is that avoiding guard and all moderate defensive cooldowns would be too powerful, at least for a 2 - 3 minute cooldown as the suggestion states. Such an ability would necessitate a cooldown of at least 3 minutes, probably 4 in my opinion, making it useable only twice per arena match, but that would end up reducing sustained damage and hurting PvE.

Suggestion Parameters: While brainstorming ideas for your change to LazeTarget/Smuggler's Luck, please keep the following in mind:

• The purpose of Laze Target/Smuggler's Luck is to offer extra burst, give an additional push when focusing a target in PvP, and increase a Sniper/Gunslinger's sustained damage in PvE with perfect play.

Before submitting your suggestion, please make sure that it fits the designed purpose of Laze Target. If it does not match the purpose, then it isn't Laze Target.

Adding a new ability like they did with Powertech's Shoulder Cannon would be the better option for making Snipers more attractive as arena teammates in my opinion. I just don't think reworking Lazed Target for that purpose is the way to go.

Mentioned this idea in the other thread too, but now with some balancing

Laze Target/Smuggler's Luck Suggestion

• Cooldown Duration: 2 minutes 30 seconds
  
• Buff Up-Time: 10 seconds
  
• Ability Description: Makes your next Ambush - Aimed shot usable out of cover and cast instantly.
  
• Reasoning and Explanation for the change: The first thought is to add more damage during movement. Second thought to add a bit more on demand burst.
  Both PvP and PvE contain a lot of movement. But some times there's still that one add wandering or there is that one guy with low health. This way you can run around and use Ambush - Aimed shot without having to stop moving.
  It can also help with a burst. If you need to take down that add quickly, use SoS - SS followed by an instant Ambush - Aimed shot to finish the add.
  I can see it help for PvP too in the same way. People will probably think of some strong bursts.
   
  There needs to be one more addition though for balance sake. Recoil Control (Tier 5 in skill tree Marksmanship - Sharpshooter) needs a change. It needs to add the following line.
  In addition a debuff will be activated when Laze Target - Smuggler's Luck is active. This prevents Recoil Control from triggering.
  This will prevent a huge dps increase for Marksmanship - Sharpshooter.
   
  Summery:
  This will give each tree an on the move ability which they can combine for an increase in burst damage. The cooldown is long enough to keep it out of the actual rotation.
  Marksmanship - Sharpshooter can't use it in it's rotation due to the debuff Recoil Control will give. Only option is on the move or to burst down an add.
  Engineering - Saboteur could use it in their rotation. The cooldown however prevents it from adding a lot of dps.
  Lethality - Dirty Fighting and Hybrid Can use it on the run or to finish something off after the second Cull - Wounding Shots.
  

And a little side reason. It has that animation of improving aim. So I thought why not make it so that your aim improves enough to use Ambush - Aimed Shot out of cover? And since you already started to aim with the animation, let it be instant too

But that was just what made me think of this idea

So please give your feedback, I can always change it a bit to balance stuff

There is only one 's' in Angelfluttershy.

I am everywhere, I judge all, I am Harbin-wait wrong game.

Second suggestion is cringe worthy. Not because it is a bad idea but because it would require a lot of code tweaks to ignore things such as guard. And the more code tweaks the more chance to introduce bugs. First idea is very well thought out.

I'm not sure how exactly these things are coded, so I can't tell if it would be hard or not.

But there is a large number of attacks that ignore protective abilities, primarily seen in PvE, and PvE is also home to a lot of far more esoteric mechanics. If a boss fight effect can be done this way, I suspect a player attack can be too.

 

Either way, whether it is difficult to code or not, I believe it would be up to the developers to shoot it down - "Sorry, hard to code" - if it is hard to code. As players we should care about what we would like done.

While my knowledge of the code is limited, I can see where Dreselus is coming from here. Guard interacts differently than most abilities in the game so there could be many exceptions it has we're not aware about. However, I don't think it would be unrealistic to implement an ability that could bypass guard, but like B-Dick that's up for the Devs to decide. If something breaks, whatever, something is always bound to break with every patch.

2. If the new Lazed Target increases the crit of nearly everything (Snipe, Ambush, Takedown, EP, SoS, and Cull) players would only use it for SoS or Cull (maybe Ambush?) because the other abilities do significantly less damage. The only time you would ever activate it for a different attack would be while leveling...

Overload Shot, anyone? There are times where an elite would knock the player out of cover, what then? Overload Shot. I know this can be a handy ability in the Engineering tree with Calculated Pursuit, but it's still nothing more than a bandage. My point is there will always be a lesser option, but at least we have the choice whether or not to use it.

3. As for CJNJ's point: I wouldn't mind having the ability learned at a higher level, or even including Ambush to make it somewhat useful for leveling (opening on an elite with an ambush crit should be helpful, right?)... but I don't think it adds to the overall effectiveness of the ability.

I think adding an Ambush to the effects list would be okay. It's not likely to be picked over SoS at end-game/most PvP circumstances, so it shouldn't have a negative impact on anything. Options are always good.

Yes, it would be a buff for PvP (and PvP only). That's the idea; snipers and gunslingers have been being phased out of competitive PvP since 2.0 if not 1.7, Arenas are just finishing them off.

 

Juggs and Maras have their overpowered Smash. Powertechs have their Shoulder Cannon that can be used out of stun (nothing else can). Operatives have their super-roll and stealth. If implemented, it will give Snipers their special something that you might consider a Sniper DPS composition for. It's just one shot, you're not going to kill people left and right with it, just occasionally catch an overconfident opponent who let his health get into execute range.

My concern is that avoiding guard and all moderate defensive cooldowns would be too powerful, at least for a 2 - 3 minute cooldown as the suggestion states. Such an ability would necessitate a cooldown of at least 3 minutes, probably 4 in my opinion, making it useable only twice per arena match, but that would end up reducing sustained damage and hurting PvE.

 

Adding a new ability like they did with Powertech's Shoulder Cannon would be the better option for making Snipers more attractive as arena teammates in my opinion. I just don't think reworking Lazed Target for that purpose is the way to go.

I think by "moderate cooldown" it should only be accuracy reducing effects. This means if the Sniper is using this Laze Target that ignores guard, it won't miss the target unless the target is using a 100% chance cooldown (like Evasion or Force Shroud). Effects that reduce damage period should still effect the lazed shot, so abilities like Energy Shield and Taunts on the Sniper should reduce the damage done by a lazed attack. This would be fair as usually a guarded player in PvP, typically a healer, doesn't have extremely powerful defensive cooldowns to begin with, and the auto-crit ability would now be SoS or Cull typically it would still be a lot more damage than a Snipe. There is still the question of how it would interact with abilities like Defense Probe/Screen and Static Barrier/Force Armor. Personally, I think abilities that absorb incoming damage should still work against this Laze as Defense Screen and Static Barrier are one of few defensive abilities Operatives and Sorcerers have.

I wouldn't expect a new ability for any class until the next expansion which at the earliest won't roll around until mid to late next year, so I'd like Snipers to see a bit more PvP assistance before then.

Mentioned this idea in the other thread too, but now with some balancing

 

Laze Target/Smuggler's Luck Suggestion

• Cooldown Duration: 2 minutes 30 seconds
  
• Buff Up-Time: 10 seconds
  
• Ability Description: Makes your next Ambush - Aimed shot usable out of cover and cast instantly.
  
• Reasoning and Explanation for the change: The first thought is to add more damage during movement. Second thought to add a bit more on demand burst.
  Both PvP and PvE contain a lot of movement. But some times there's still that one add wandering or there is that one guy with low health. This way you can run around and use Ambush - Aimed shot without having to stop moving.
  It can also help with a burst. If you need to take down that add quickly, use SoS - SS followed by an instant Ambush - Aimed shot to finish the add.
  I can see it help for PvP too in the same way. People will probably think of some strong bursts.
   
  There needs to be one more addition though for balance sake. Recoil Control (Tier 5 in skill tree Marksmanship - Sharpshooter) needs a change. It needs to add the following line.
  In addition a debuff will be activated when Laze Target - Smuggler's Luck is active. This prevents Recoil Control from triggering.
  This will prevent a huge dps increase for Marksmanship - Sharpshooter.
   
  Summery:
  This will give each tree an on the move ability which they can combine for an increase in burst damage. The cooldown is long enough to keep it out of the actual rotation.
  Marksmanship - Sharpshooter can't use it in it's rotation due to the debuff Recoil Control will give. Only option is on the move or to burst down an add.
  Engineering - Saboteur could use it in their rotation. The cooldown however prevents it from adding a lot of dps.
  Lethality - Dirty Fighting and Hybrid Can use it on the run or to finish something off after the second Cull - Wounding Shots.
  

 

And a little side reason. It has that animation of improving aim. So I thought why not make it so that your aim improves enough to use Ambush - Aimed Shot out of cover? And since you already started to aim with the animation, let it be instant too

But that was just what made me think of this idea

 

So please give your feedback, I can always change it a bit to balance stuff

Sweet idea, and I like that you're taking buff-up time and tree abilities in to consideration when balancing Laze Target. This is definitely the most balanced version of an out-of-cover version I've seen suggested yet.

The only downside to this alteration is it still benefits MM/SS more than the other specs as their Ambush/Aimed Shot will naturally do more damage. However, since your Laze Target will prevent Recoil Control from triggering on the instant Ambush, I think the difference would be marginal. Your suggestion would still be an improvement for all specs as the burst set-ups would be great (e.g. Engi's could do EP > Laze + Ambush > SoS + Cluster Bombs; Lethality could do Cull > Laze + Ambush).

As for the technical side, I think having a debuff/additional effect to the Laze Target to prevent Recoil Control from proccing isn't asking much since it won't interact with other abilities or targets. I'm adding yours to the notables.

Good feedback and suggestions everyone, keep it coming! If I have the time I'll try to submit my own suggestion later.

My concern is that avoiding guard and all moderate defensive cooldowns would be too powerful, at least for a 2 - 3 minute cooldown as the suggestion states.

Well, mostly I'd settle for "cannot be intercepted". That's the big thing - a PvP-only boost with zero effect on PvE.

Adding a new ability like they did with Powertech's Shoulder Cannon would be the better option for making Snipers more attractive as arena teammates in my opinion. I just don't think reworking Lazed Target for that purpose is the way to go.

A new ability is more work and more balancing. Realistically, we aren't going to get any new abilities in 2.4 or probably even 2.5. A tweak to Laze Target is closer to earth.

[*] Cooldown Duration: 2 minutes 30 seconds

 

[*] Ability Description: Makes your next Ambush - Aimed shot usable out of cover and cast instantly.

While quite useful in its own right, I'm not sure if the numbers support a 2:30 cooldown for it.

Instant shot abilities still consume a GCD - so you're talking about doing Ambush in 1.5 seconds instead of 2.5, given zero alacrity. Snipe and Ambush look slow due to the animation, but only cost as much time as 1 or 1.6 default attacks respectively. Since you still spend 15 energy, and since your other CDs are still ticking, and since it doesn't reset the Ambush CD, it's about 0.7 extra cheap attacks you can squeeze in compared to just plain Ambush.

That averages to 1 extra normal attack per 225 seconds. It's about 1400 damage, maybe 2700 if you're Marksmanship and can always spare energy for a Snipe. Either way, it's a DPS gain of 0.4% for Mark or 0.2% for all others.

In comparison, per MM parse above, current LT gives about +2000 damage to Snipe every 60 seconds. That's a DPS gain of 1.1% for Mark or in the 0%-1% range for other specs depending on their use of Snipe.

I could think of this ability as a 60-second cooldown... then it would be +1% for MM - still a 10% decrease in DPS - or about 0.5% for other specs, also about what they have now if they use half of their LT's.

This effect just isn't powerful enough or bursty enough to be worth a long cooldown. As a 60-second one, yeah, useful for PvP.

That is without considering the RC debuff, which would make for a further DPS loss, since you've wasted a trigger of your single highest DPS ability, except for Takedown. With the RC debuff, the average DPS gain for Marksmanship is 0. The ability would be strictly situational, sacrificing DPS for urgency, and not even need a cooldown, since Ambush itself is on a long enough one already.

Now, if it also reset the cooldown on Ambush, we could be talking. In perfect rotation you'd be using it right after Ambush, and since it doesn't proc its own FT, it's mostly one extra Ambush instead of Snipe, or a 3000 damage gain per cooldown, minus the DPS loss from that slightly delayed Ambush CD.

That's about an extra 1000-1200 per minute, so about a 0.6%-0.7% gain. Still 40% less powerful than the current LT for MM. The numbers would support a 1:30 cooldown for it to match LT at +1.1% as it stands today for Marksmanship, but unlike the current LT the new ability would also give +1% to other specs.

The above was generous in assuming you don't use double snipe to proc FT, else it would be a nerf.

While Snipers don't need buffs to sustained DPS, you have to understand that we can't spare a loss of it either. Nightmare Mode bosses still need killing, and the clearance rate at 55 is low even for HMs, for NiM it's literally a few top players. Snipers matter in operations, and with bosses enraging while down to 1% HP and kills barely edged out by rapidly dying remains of the raid, even the slightest nerfs to sustained damage can turn these Pyrrhic victories into wipes.

OK, that's perhaps overly dramatic. But the short version is, however we change Laze Target, sustain can't be sacrificed. I don't want raiding to go back to EV and KP days, but classes overall are in need of a little more DPS, not less, to deal with present and upcoming content.

My suggestion was for putting in the specs. And, the reason why i let it do OS for lethality is OS is currently hard to put in lethality rotation. This makes a lot of people more favorable to Hybrid, as OS does more dmg anyway in hybrid with 20% dmg boost. It might be too hard to code new spec stuff until the next expansion, but i'm fine with the change then. If we get BW suggested change before than, it wouldn't be that bad to wait a few more months for a huge change.

In PvE. I don't have much of a problem squeezing a OS into my rotation. Granted, I have to sacrifice a SoS opportunity, but it's still a DPS gain over just continuing to use SoS. Still, I'd feel like this would be too substantial of a DPS gain unless it was on a four minute cooldown, which would only let you use it twice per Ops fight. I don't see it necessary in PvP either as you're interruptible in cover and the giant mark on the ground tells people to get out of there anyway. This would benefit PvE far more than PvP in my eyes.

BioWare has done skill tree alterations before expansions so we wouldn't have to wait a long time to see this change (technically speaking).

While quite useful in its own right, I'm not sure if the numbers support a 2:30 cooldown for it.

 

Instant shot abilities still consume a GCD - so you're talking about doing Ambush in 1.5 seconds instead of 2.5, given zero alacrity. Snipe and Ambush look slow due to the animation, but only cost as much time as 1 or 1.6 default attacks respectively. Since you still spend 15 energy, and since your other CDs are still ticking, and since it doesn't reset the Ambush CD, it's about 0.7 extra cheap attacks you can squeeze in compared to just plain Ambush.

 

That averages to 1 extra normal attack per 225 seconds. It's about 1400 damage, maybe 2700 if you're Marksmanship and can always spare energy for a Snipe. Either way, it's a DPS gain of 0.4% for Mark or 0.2% for all others.

In comparison, per MM parse above, current LT gives about +2000 damage to Snipe every 60 seconds. That's a DPS gain of 1.1% for Mark or in the 0%-1% range for other specs depending on their use of Snipe.

 

I could think of this ability as a 60-second cooldown... then it would be +1% for MM - still a 10% decrease in DPS - or about 0.5% for other specs, also about what they have now if they use half of their LT's.

This effect just isn't powerful enough or bursty enough to be worth a long cooldown. As a 60-second one, yeah, useful for PvP.

 

That is without considering the RC debuff, which would make for a further DPS loss, since you've wasted a trigger of your single highest DPS ability, except for Takedown. With the RC debuff, the average DPS gain for Marksmanship is 0. The ability would be strictly situational, sacrificing DPS for urgency, and not even need a cooldown, since Ambush itself is on a long enough one already.

 

Now, if it also reset the cooldown on Ambush, we could be talking. In perfect rotation you'd be using it right after Ambush, and since it doesn't proc its own FT, it's mostly one extra Ambush instead of Snipe, or a 3000 damage gain per cooldown, minus the DPS loss from that slightly delayed Ambush CD.

That's about an extra 1000-1200 per minute, so about a 0.6%-0.7% gain. Still 40% less powerful than the current LT for MM. The numbers would support a 1:30 cooldown for it to match LT at +1.1% as it stands today for Marksmanship, but unlike the current LT the new ability would also give +1% to other specs.

 

The above was generous in assuming you don't use double snipe to proc FT, else it would be a nerf.

While Snipers don't need buffs to sustained DPS, you have to understand that we can't spare a loss of it either. Nightmare Mode bosses still need killing, and the clearance rate at 55 is very low even for HMs, for NiM it's literally a few top players. Snipers matter in operations, and with bosses enraging while down to 1% HP and kills barely edged out by rapidly dying remains of the raid, even the slightest nerfs to sustained damage can turn these Pyrrhic victories into wipes.

You bring up a good point about consuming Ambush's cooldown and RC trigger opportunity. After reading what you put up, I'd say Laze Target finishing the CD on Ambush or not putting Ambush on CD would be a fair addition. Having a new Laze Target benefit MM a bit less and the other specs much more is a fair change.

As for the cooldown being 1:30, your math seems to strongly support that interval in terms of overall DPS, but the extra utility this brings could merit a longer cooldown depending on how strongly it effects PvP play. I think a minute thirty sounds fair, but paper is always different than practice when it comes to PvP. However, any cooldown for this ability longer than two minutes is too long for me.

While quite useful in its own right, I'm not sure if the numbers support a 2:30 cooldown for it.

 

Instant shot abilities still consume a GCD - so you're talking about doing Ambush in 1.5 seconds instead of 2.5, given zero alacrity. Snipe and Ambush look slow due to the animation, but only cost as much time as 1 or 1.6 default attacks respectively. Since you still spend 15 energy, and since your other CDs are still ticking, and since it doesn't reset the Ambush CD, it's about 0.7 extra cheap attacks you can squeeze in compared to just plain Ambush.

 

That averages to 1 extra normal attack per 225 seconds. It's about 1400 damage, maybe 2700 if you're Marksmanship and can always spare energy for a Snipe. Either way, it's a DPS gain of 0.4% for Mark or 0.2% for all others.

In comparison, per MM parse above, current LT gives about +2000 damage to Snipe every 60 seconds. That's a DPS gain of 1.1% for Mark or in the 0%-1% range for other specs depending on their use of Snipe.

 

I could think of this ability as a 60-second cooldown... then it would be +1% for MM - still a 10% decrease in DPS - or about 0.5% for other specs, also about what they have now if they use half of their LT's.

This effect just isn't powerful enough or bursty enough to be worth a long cooldown. As a 60-second one, yeah, useful for PvP.

 

That is without considering the RC debuff, which would make for a further DPS loss, since you've wasted a trigger of your single highest DPS ability, except for Takedown. With the RC debuff, the average DPS gain for Marksmanship is 0. The ability would be strictly situational, sacrificing DPS for urgency, and not even need a cooldown, since Ambush itself is on a long enough one already.

 

Now, if it also reset the cooldown on Ambush, we could be talking. In perfect rotation you'd be using it right after Ambush, and since it doesn't proc its own FT, it's mostly one extra Ambush instead of Snipe, or a 3000 damage gain per cooldown, minus the DPS loss from that slightly delayed Ambush CD.

That's about an extra 1000-1200 per minute, so about a 0.6%-0.7% gain. Still 40% less powerful than the current LT for MM. The numbers would support a 1:30 cooldown for it to match LT at +1.1% as it stands today for Marksmanship, but unlike the current LT the new ability would also give +1% to other specs.

 

The above was generous in assuming you don't use double snipe to proc FT, else it would be a nerf.

While Snipers don't need buffs to sustained DPS, you have to understand that we can't spare a loss of it either. Nightmare Mode bosses still need killing, and the clearance rate at 55 is low even for HMs, for NiM it's literally a few top players. Snipers matter in operations, and with bosses enraging while down to 1% HP and kills barely edged out by rapidly dying remains of the raid, even the slightest nerfs to sustained damage can turn these Pyrrhic victories into wipes.

 

OK, that's perhaps overly dramatic. But the short version is, however we change Laze Target, sustain can't be sacrificed. I don't want raiding to go back to EV and KP days, but classes overall are in need of a little more DPS, not less, to deal with present and upcoming content.

Like I said, please leave feedback One of the reasons is that I didn't have any math to support the cooldown.

So let's just change the cooldown to 1:30 wand let LT finish the cooldown on Ambush too. Then I have the following concern.

One thing I noticed is that you primarily talk from a MM (I will just stick with sniper stuff for now) perspective.

How will this work with Engineering?

Usually they can squish in one Ambush + some other GCD between Sniper and SoS. The GCD will most of the time be a DoT or maybe a EP every now and then. With LT you can do: Sniper -> Ambush -> LT Ambush -> SoS.

I am wondering if that, on a 1:30 cooldown, won't be a bit to much?

So I went testing a bit on my slinger and did some baby math. Primarily because I was curious about some numbers with Engineering. The result was a slight dps increase (my baby math will be below ). So in the end I can agree with the remove cooldown from Ambush and 1:30 cooldown on LT. Especially since the increase isnt noticable in my math. It will probably make make a difference if this was actually used. My guess is a small dps increase, but not much.

I do think a 1min cooldown will be to low. I don't think that that is something we can achieve.

So my baby math, please keep in mind that my slinger is still gearing up

I hit the dummy several times to test my damage. I only noted the non-crit Ambush avarage and ofcourse the avarage non-crit Snipe and crit Snipe.

Parse: http://www.torparse.com/a/403432/10/0/Damage+Dealt (not the best parse, but was for testing purpose anyway)

Ambush: 3.8k

Snipe: 2.1k

crit Snipe: 3.3k

With Snipe LT. Parse length 197s

Snipe damage: 29643 dps: 150.71

Ambush damage: 39807 dps: 202.38

dps: 353.09

Rough estimate with Ambush LT. Etimate parse length 200s (2 GCDs added through 2 Ambushes)

The following numbers are rough estimates using the above numbers. (Told ya, baby math )

Snipe damage: 23943 dps: 119.72

Ambush damage: 47407 dps: 237.04

dps: 356.76

As you see, an increase of 3 dps But this is just my baby math. It didn't acount for many variables.

In practice I think the playstyle would change, but the dps wouldn't change much. Again no math to support it This baby math is all the support I can get for now

So let's just change the cooldown to 1:30 wand let LT finish the cooldown on Ambush too. Then I have the following concern.

One thing I noticed is that you primarily talk from a MM (I will just stick with sniper stuff for now) perspective.

How will this work with Engineering?

Put simple, it won't.

Ambush cooldown is only relevant to Marksmanship aka Sharpshooter. Other specs only use it as an occasional filler or a tankless fight opener and it remains off cooldown.

I mostly just addressed how would the proposal need to change to match current LT in sustain.

As for a practical solution, I believe it could be merged into the currently leading Greg's proposal:

Cooldown Duration: 2 minutes 15 sec

Ability: Increases the critical hit chance of your next Ambush, Series of Shots, Cull or two Snipes by 100%. While this ability is active, your Ambush will activate instantly, out of cover, will not respect its cooldown and will not trigger Recoil Control.

That's just it. Ambush is considerably less powerful than SoS or Cull, but instant activation off cooldown makes it a bit more viable. Per figures above we can add ~3,000 to Snipe replacement effect, bringing it into the same 12k-14k range. As a MM, you would be picking between SoS for more burst and DPS or Ambush for utility or urgency.

Two Snipes are a little behind either in damage and about on par with the new Ambush, but Snipe is a low level talent, so this way you can benefit right away. And two Snipes reset the Followthrough; you still wouldn't pick them over an instant Ambush just for that, of course, unless you're one-shotting low level weaks.

Engineering and Lethality still generally wouldn't use their LT on Ambush, since they don't care about its cooldown. I suppose they're let down this way, since their SoS takes 3 seconds instead of 2, but I'm not sure if it can be helped.

More precisely, I'm sure it can be helped and can tell how exactly - have Laze Target also crit any Agent's DoTs on the target for the duration of this channel. It's not a big change, they only do 1,000 damage combined, but it would buff Engineering's up to 3 DoTs and Leth's 2 weaker ones, balancing the talent between all trees.

However, I'm not sure how "sellable" it would be. It doesn't even increase Sniper top DPS, but it sounds fairly comprehensive. It's a bit more burst too, for what it's worth, so if we can work out this merge, I'd agree to drop the more original concept of bypassing Guard. It would've been useful, and better for PvP, but I get that most people are more interested in PvE.

A merged ability could look like this:

Cooldown Duration: 2 minutes 30 sec (possibly 3:00, though that may lose DPS)

Ability: Increases the critical hit chance of your next Ambush, two Snipes, Series of Shots or Cull and all damage over time effect ticks during their channel by 100%. While active, your Ambush will activate instantly, out of cover, will not respect or reset its cooldown and will not trigger Recoil Control. Does not affect Orbital Strike.

However it's not quite as compact as as the previous version. It is pretty balanced however, giving Engineering's SoS the best boost out of all the trees with its good DoTs.

I'd settle for less balance, but a choice between instant but weaker Ambush and a slower but more potent channel would be a nice touch. All the while avoiding a buff or a nerf to sustain.

If simplicity is called for, just take away that Ambush cooldown ignore (and thus don't change anything WRT Recoil Control either), because Mark is good as it is and others don't worry about Ambush cooldowns.

We probably should try and simplify it without losing the gist of the idea.

I'd really like my suggestion's ability description to maintain its simplicity, so I would not be in favor of a 'merger.'

...

The other idea is very interesting though. I think if the Ambush in your suggestion didn't respect the global cooldown, it would become very interesting for all specs. It could still be instant, useable from out of cover, and not proc Recoil Control, but that would make it possible for all specs (including MM) to fit it in their rotation whenever they had excess energy or had AP/TA available. There would also be more potential for burst, which is the main reason for reworking Lazed Target in the first place.

It should be fairly easy to balance the extra damage with the suggested cooldown of Lazed Target. Since it currently grants about 2k every minute, and a non-crit Ambush does 4 - 5k, a flat 2 minute cooldown should do the job. It's a little more complex since I believe your Lazed Ambush would still cost energy, and the extra 2k on the current Lazed Target doesn't really cost the player anything, but I believe the chance for a crit might balance that out.

If you decide to add "does not respect the global cooldown" into the description however, it might make more sense to have the Lazed Ambush not put Ambush on cooldown instead of finishing its cooldown. It's basically the same thing, I just thought it fit better

Great feedback everyone, some of the suggestions here have been really growing with the back and forth between each other. I just wanted to remind everyone that I'll be unable to update the thread from tomorrow (8/30) until Monday night (9/2) or Tuesday afternoon (9/3) as I'll be away for the weekend.

Please continue the discussion and keep the suggestions coming. I hope to return to see many posts for me to catch up with!

Hello!

Angels is Friday next week a good time? We are going to clash with the Juggernaut questions submission (their deadline is 8/30). Since its going to be a long holiday weekend i think itll do well to submit this a little further down the line. Their next week will undoubtedly be very busy. I'm thinkig September 6 or September 9.