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"All DPS specs have the same target" same with Healing & Tanking


Niil

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So from the 4th Q&A...

 

Without getting too long-winded on the subject, what we're aiming to do with any class change is get a class or spec as close to target as we can. These "targets" are objective math-based goals that apply identically to all like-roles. By that I mean that all DPS specs have the same target because they are all the same role: damage dealing. Tank roles have their own targets, and healing roles have their own targets. When someone is off target (too high or too low), we try to find non-invasive ways of bringing them closer to target. We don't try to bring classes closer to target because we're mean - we do it because the global game math assumes everyone hits their target. When someone doesn't hit their target, it has an adverse effect on the game at large. And since rebalancing the entire game to accommodate an outlying spec is completely infeasible, we address the outlying performers with class changes, individually, as appropriate. It's an ongoing experience that we'll never be done with, so prioritization is based on what we feel is the most egregious in any given patch. How we identify outliers and how we determine which is the most egregious is... another bigger topic.

 

This applies to every role, but for the love of all that is holy, can we please get this stickied in this forum. That way whenever someone says, "but I have 3 damage specs therefore I should do more damage than AC's with tanking and healing options!" or "I should tank better than you I wear heavy armor!" we can just point them to the sticky and tell them that that is not how the game is designed.

 

For the sake of discussion, I think it's very apparent who the outliers are at this point. I'm very happy to hear the developers use the Q&A's to answer design intent questions, even if the mark isn't being hit for everyone. It at least gives us an idea of where you want things to be. I understand early on in games balance is usually wonky as some classes scale better than others at end game or classes don't perform as well as the developers thought they would. Most of us who have played mmo's for years are understanding of that.

 

I'm expecting marauder nerfs in the future and buffs to some classes (operatives are low on fights that require a lot of mobility but solid if they have good uptime, mercs are on the low end of performance now by a large margin due to resolving bugs and attempts at rebalancing their priorities). I just hope that you (Bioware) respect the reactions of players when you make heavy handed changes to things. I don't want marauders to be nerfed into the dirt and I don't want to see mercs doing 20-40% more damage than other classes. Please don't make drastic sweeping changes. Small tweaking frequently is much better than 2+ months of nothing and then a massive list of nerfs/buffs that all hit at once.

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Obviously they want all classes/specs to perform as similarly as possible, that's what balance is. What bugs me is that they keep making changes that dont seem to follow that design theory - some changes may increase or decrease a class' damage output as a whole, but those same changes dont effect different specs equally.

 

For example I'll use my sniper - I've used the test dummies and combat parsers to try out half a dozen different skill builds so far, including heavy marksman, heavy engineer, heavy lethality, hybrid marksman-engineer, and hybrid lethality-engineer. Between all of them, the heavy lethality build pulls -much- higher damage than any heavy engineer, heavy marksman, or hybrid build can.

 

On average I'm doing 13-15% more damage per second - both in tests and on actual raid encounters - with heavy lethality than I do with any other build, which ends up being around 150-200 dps difference. Over the course of a 5 minute long boss fight, if I'm doing 150 higher DPS than a marksman sniper, I'm going to have dealt almost 50,000 more damage than him. On most bosses that's around 2.5% of the boss' total health bar, and you know how often people wipe at 1-2% when doing progression raiding.

 

 

It seems to me that Bioware is focusing on some kind of average output between any particular AC's different skill builds, rather than focusing on each individual build as a different class altogether, and that's why we're seeing such a huge discrepancy in performance.

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Problem that someone else pointed out with a dps class is heavy does more damage than medium and medium does more damage then light. The dps needs to be switched around.

 

That is contrary to their stated design.

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Why sticky it when its complete bullocks. Dps classes couldn't be further apart the healers are totally imbalanced as well. Just because bioware says it doesn't mean its true in any way. The reality is that there is a BROAD difference between dps classes and balance is nothing but some nebulous goal bioware talks about while avoiding speaking plainly about the overpowered ACs and the ones they have broken into uselessness.

 

The problems aren't as simple as buffs and nerfs. Yes marauders need a 20% nerf that's just a fact or take away some of the crazy utility they have. But 20% would square them up. Mercs are flat broken. Their trees are entirely basic and without any utility. Buffing merc dps wouldn't really solve the problem the tree is just far too easy mode and easy to counter. I would say merc needs a 30% boost to its burst and a 15% buff to its dps. Mercs also need a closer/mobility buff and some kind of snare/interrupt or both. That would square mercs up.

 

 

 

So from the 4th Q&A...

 

 

 

This applies to every role, but for the love of all that is holy, can we please get this stickied in this forum. That way whenever someone says, "but I have 3 damage specs therefore I should do more damage than AC's with tanking and healing options!" or "I should tank better than you I wear heavy armor!" we can just point them to the sticky and tell them that that is not how the game is designed.

 

For the sake of discussion, I think it's very apparent who the outliers are at this point. I'm very happy to hear the developers use the Q&A's to answer design intent questions, even if the mark isn't being hit for everyone. It at least gives us an idea of where you want things to be. I understand early on in games balance is usually wonky as some classes scale better than others at end game or classes don't perform as well as the developers thought they would. Most of us who have played mmo's for years are understanding of that.

 

I'm expecting marauder nerfs in the future and buffs to some classes (operatives are low on fights that require a lot of mobility but solid if they have good uptime, mercs are on the low end of performance now by a large margin due to resolving bugs and attempts at rebalancing their priorities). I just hope that you (Bioware) respect the reactions of players when you make heavy handed changes to things. I don't want marauders to be nerfed into the dirt and I don't want to see mercs doing 20-40% more damage than other classes. Please don't make drastic sweeping changes. Small tweaking frequently is much better than 2+ months of nothing and then a massive list of nerfs/buffs that all hit at once.

Edited by gattiman
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Why sticky it when its complete bullocks. Dps classes couldn't be further apart the healers are totally imbalanced as well. Just because bioware says it doesn't mean its true in any way. The reality is that there is a BROAD difference between dps classes and balance is nothing but some nebulous goal bioware talks about while avoiding speaking plainly about the overpowered ACs and the ones they have broken into uselessness.

 

The problems aren't as simple as buffs and nerfs. Yes marauders need a 20% nerf that's just a fact or take away some of the crazy utility they have. But 20% would square them up. Mercs are flat broken. Their trees are entirely basic and without any utility. Buffing merc dps wouldn't really solve the problem the tree is just far too easy mode and easy to counter. I would say merc needs a 30% boost to its burst and a 15% buff to its dps. Mercs also need a closer/mobility buff and some kind of snare/interrupt or both. That would square mercs up.

 

While I agree, class balance in the dps department is lacking right now, I'm just happy to hear the design intent is. I have several 50's that I've raided on (marauder, sorcerer, merc as a healer and dps) but my main is a mercenary. Trust me I feel your pain.

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Obviously they want all classes/specs to perform as similarly as possible, that's what balance is. What bugs me is that they keep making changes that dont seem to follow that design theory - some changes may increase or decrease a class' damage output as a whole, but those same changes dont effect different specs equally.

 

For example I'll use my sniper - I've used the test dummies and combat parsers to try out half a dozen different skill builds so far, including heavy marksman, heavy engineer, heavy lethality, hybrid marksman-engineer, and hybrid lethality-engineer. Between all of them, the heavy lethality build pulls -much- higher damage than any heavy engineer, heavy marksman, or hybrid build can.

 

On average I'm doing 13-15% more damage per second - both in tests and on actual raid encounters - with heavy lethality than I do with any other build, which ends up being around 150-200 dps difference. Over the course of a 5 minute long boss fight, if I'm doing 150 higher DPS than a marksman sniper, I'm going to have dealt almost 50,000 more damage than him. On most bosses that's around 2.5% of the boss' total health bar, and you know how often people wipe at 1-2% when doing progression raiding.

 

It seems to me that Bioware is focusing on some kind of average output between any particular AC's different skill builds, rather than focusing on each individual build as a different class altogether, and that's why we're seeing such a huge discrepancy in performance.

 

I understand your reasoning, but we got a more complicated issue here. How do we define target dps? Is it against heavy armored or other subjects. The entire lethality tree is buid arround longer set up time and stronger damage against heavily armored targets. Mm is the king of burst, and it can dominate squishier classes. If mm will be as effective as lethality agains heavy armored targets, than there will be absolutely no need to take lethality. Lethality will cease to be a sidegrade and be completely overshadowed by marksman.

 

Or take engineering for example, what will be the point of MM if eng will do the same single target damage AND AoE damage on top if that?

 

All this design concept is flawed because of the operation bosses. You cannot ave all specs within one class equally effective agains single target dps, or you will basically kill the spec variety.

Edited by NoTomorrow
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Problem that someone else pointed out with a dps class is heavy does more damage than medium and medium does more damage then light. The dps needs to be switched around.

 

That isnt really a problem. Aside from a couple oddballs, heavy armor classes tend to be melee or near-melee, meaning they end up taking more damage from AoEs and boss mechanics than a ranged class will. A ranged class in light armor doesnt really need to do more damage than a melee class in heavy armor, the damage taken by both will even itself out.

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That isnt really a problem. Aside from a couple oddballs, heavy armor classes tend to be melee or near-melee, meaning they end up taking more damage from AoEs and boss mechanics than a ranged class will. A ranged class in light armor doesnt really need to do more damage than a melee class in heavy armor, the damage taken by both will even itself out.

 

In pve sure in pvp no.

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The "Hybrid" classes have to be balanced less than pure DPS ACs as their utility has to be taken into consideration.

 

Otherwise there will be NO reason to have pure DPS classes in the game.

 

I asked this question in another post, surprisingly no-one answered.

 

If all ACs when specced into DPS can do the same level of damage, Why take pure DPS classes to an Ops/HM if a hybrid healer can do as much damage and still have the utility of heals. cures and shields when needed?

 

Thats why the utility of hybrids has to be factored into the equation when balancing.

 

My sage is balance specced and can still throw out 5k+ heals.

 

Otherwise to balance hybrid classes to do the same damage as pure DPS classes, then the pure DPS classes need a viable utility outside of pure damage to compare.

Edited by kiwoo
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The "Hybrid" classes have to be balanced less than pure DPS ACs as their utility has to be taken into consideration.

 

Otherwise there will be NO reason to have pure DPS classes in the game.

 

I asked this question in another post, surprisingly no-one answered.

 

If all ACs when specced into DPS can do the same level of damage, Why take pure DPS classes to an Ops/HM if a hybrid healer can do as much damage and still have the utility of heals. cures and shields when needed?

 

Thats why the utility of hybrids has to be factored into the equation when balancing.

 

My sage is balance specced and can still throw out 5k+ heals.

 

Otherwise to balance hybrid classes to do the same damage as pure DPS classes, then the pure DPS classes need a viable utility outside of pure damage to compare.

 

The answer to that is very simple. The time it takes to throw those dispels and heals around is going to reduce damage done. Thus, the more someone does secondary functions, the less dps they do. You're pretending they do the same damage AND also heal and dispel when that's absolutely not the truth.

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The answer to that is very simple. The time it takes to throw those dispels and heals around is going to reduce damage done. Thus, the more someone does secondary functions, the less dps they do. You're pretending they do the same damage AND also heal and dispel when that's absolutely not the truth.

 

Incorrect. There should be a price to be paid by being a hybrid with two sets of strong abilities. Having huge options should come at a price as compared to a pure dps that can only dps.

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Incorrect. There should be a price to be paid by being a hybrid with two sets of strong abilities. Having huge options should come at a price as compared to a pure dps that can only dps.

 

Incorrect isn't the appropriate response here. You're not stating a fact, you're stating an opinion. One that is not shared by Swtor developers as is clearly indicated in the Q&A. I respect that you have that opinion, feel free to disagree, but my actual experience playing mmo's over the past 14+ years shows the value of hybrids is actually very low when it comes to progression raiding, people don't want someone that can do 90% of the damage a dps can do and 90% of the healing, in either a dps or a healer spot. Support classes have prettymuch gone away in all modern mmo's. What we have left is a bunch of specs that have heals that aren't useful unless spec'd into, and even if they do use unspec'd heals they're going to suffer in the damage department.

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Incorrect. There should be a price to be paid by being a hybrid with two sets of strong abilities. Having huge options should come at a price as compared to a pure dps that can only dps.

 

so a hybrid who takes 2 button pushed (2 GCDs) to do 2k dmg and 2k heals should not be equal to the DPS class who can take 2 button pushes (2 GCDs) to do 2k dmg and another 2k dmg...

 

 

right...

 

 

*cough*

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If all ACs when specced into DPS can do the same level of damage, Why take pure DPS classes to an Ops/HM if a hybrid healer can do as much damage and still have the utility of heals. cures and shields when needed?

 

If a DPS AC decides to throw out some heals, then that will severely affect their DPS and most likely piss off the healers because it throws triage out the window so your "question" has a completely false statement in it and is therefore invalid.

 

There is no such thing as a "Hybrid" class. You can have a hybrid spec but I certainly would not bring a hybrid spec to a raid, I would much rather have a fully spec'd healer and a fully spec'd DPS and have them concentrate on their job and do it properly.

 

The reason you have classes with three DPS specs is usually because each spec tree has it's niche sub-role, like a PvP spec, AOE spec, single target spec, utility spec etc, etc. This is the way almost every MMO is made these days. Just because some classes have their PvP or AOE spec replaced with a tank or a heal spec does in no way mean they should do less DPS when spec'd as such.

Edited by Kallti
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so a hybrid who takes 2 button pushed (2 GCDs) to do 2k dmg and 2k heals should not be equal to the DPS class who can take 2 button pushes (2 GCDs) to do 2k dmg and another 2k dmg...

 

 

right...

 

 

*cough*

 

Exactly. All things being equal a healer should be stronger than a hybrid healer and a dps should do more dps than a hybrid dps. The ability to fill two rolls at a whim should come at a price. Bioware obviously agrees look at mercs. We can dps and throw out paultry heals or heal and throw out paultry dps but never do both strongly.

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It is impossible to balance the game by just giving everyone equal dps on x target. DPS should NOT be equal as many classes sacrifice utuility/defense/burst for higher DPS. Here is are SOME of the discrepancies between classes.

 

PVP-

 

1. Some damage specs are fully mitigated by armor or shields, but other damage specs are not. When it comes to killing a tank in PVP. See Pyrotech > MM Snipers

 

2. Some classes have much higher defense then others. See Tanksin > Operative.

 

3. Some classes have much higher utility(Pull/Taunt/Gaurd/etc). See Tanksins > Marauders.

 

3. Some classes are much easier to interrupt their damage. See Powertechs > Troopers.

 

4. Some classes are based around having burst damage instead of constant dps. See Sniper > Sorcerer

 

PVE-

 

1. Some classes are ranged and don't have to deal with most bosses aoe. See Trooper > Operative.

 

2. Some class can reliably offheal/offtank at key points in fights. See Sorcerer/Juggernaut > Sniper/Marauder.

 

 

If you give everyone the same damage then the only classes that will be viable will be the ones with high defense + utility + ranged as well. What would be the point of bringing an Operative over a Tanksin given equal damage?

 

Balance is about far more then just equal dps. Every class should have their strengths and weaknesses, and some classes doing more dps then others is a VERY viable strength/weakness.

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It is impossible to balance the game by just giving everyone equal dps on x target. DPS should NOT be equal as many classes sacrifice utuility/defense/burst for higher DPS. Here is are SOME of the discrepancies between classes.

 

PVP-

 

1. Some damage specs are fully mitigated by armor or shields, but other damage specs are not. When it comes to killing a tank in PVP. See Pyrotech > MM Snipers

 

2. Some classes have much higher defense then others. See Tanksin > Operative.

 

3. Some classes have much higher utility(Pull/Taunt/Gaurd/etc). See Tanksins > Marauders.

 

3. Some classes are much easier to interrupt their damage. See Powertechs > Troopers.

 

4. Some classes are based around having burst damage instead of constant dps. See Sniper > Sorcerer

 

PVE-

 

1. Some classes are ranged and don't have to deal with most bosses aoe. See Trooper > Operative.

 

2. Some class can reliably offheal/offtank at key points in fights. See Sorcerer/Juggernaut > Sniper/Marauder.

 

 

If you give everyone the same damage then the only classes that will be viable will be the ones with high defense + utility + ranged as well. What would be the point of bringing an Operative over a Tanksin given equal damage?

 

Balance is about far more then just equal dps. Every class should have their strengths and weaknesses, and some classes doing more dps then others is a VERY viable strength/weakness.

 

It's a design philosophy. You can cite all the examples of perceived class imbalance all you want, it doesn't change the fact that at the end of the day each class has a primary function they have to accomplish. The goal is not to have 10 classes that all dps at various levels because every one past the first is superfluous. The goal is to balance the remaining facets while trying to keep the role function at even levels. Differences in mobility, defenses, utility, fluff, and playstyle will differentiate the classes. Those things, inherently, are going to impact damage situationally anyways. You may see dps classes with different damage output levels as a viable way to balance them, I see that as a cop out so that developers don't have to do the hard job of balancing classes overall, to put it simply it's a demonstration of poor design.

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Problem that someone else pointed out with a dps class is heavy does more damage than medium and medium does more damage then light. The dps needs to be switched around.

 

Not true. The Medium and Light classes have better defense cooldowns and damage reduction to AoE talents to make up the difference, and often end up having MORE survivability than heavy classes in the right hands, while also having the same DPS. Just look at Marauder cooldowns - some are better than tank cooldowns and are available twice as often. The reason people claim Marauders are OP isn't DPS, it's survivability, but the Juggernaut on the flipside is considered balanced because while they do have heavy armor, skill with cooldown use can be more effective.

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There are no hybrids in this game. If you are specialised into a dps talent tree you are a pure dps. Though the disparity between some dps trees seems contrary to biowares design philosophy...
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In pve sure in pvp no.

 

Heavy Melee tend to have very weak CC to make up for their armor advantage, while light classes tend to have fast-recharging defense cooldowns and lots of CC and kiting abilities. Neither heavy melee class has an escape mechanic or very much in the way of hard CC, while all the light/med melee do.

Edited by Vid-szhite
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The answer to that is very simple. The time it takes to throw those dispels and heals around is going to reduce damage done. Thus, the more someone does secondary functions, the less dps they do. You're pretending they do the same damage AND also heal and dispel when that's absolutely not the truth.

 

You're making it a black-and-white comparison. Not all utility is tied directly into hybrid roles.

 

For example, compare... well anything in any role to an Operative/Scoundrel in the same role. The Op/Scoundrel's utility is practically non-existent.

 

As a DPS, they have no target debuffs or group buffs (except lolworthy group stealth), no gap closer/poor mobility, and a kit/mechanics that are cumbersome at best when they aren't outright working against each other.

 

As a healer (which I'll give you was addressed by nerfing Merc/Commando into the ground), they have no buffs or group synergy built into their heals, no damage mitigation abilities, and really nothing but sustained healing and rather mediocre HoTs.

 

It isn't just about what someone can do if they dip into one of their other available roles. It's a small part, yes, but you also have to consider the bigger picture - even if all roles were made to be within 5% of each other, the disparities in class design makes some class/specs woefully undesirable compared to others.

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You're making it a black-and-white comparison. Not all utility is tied directly into hybrid roles.

<snip>

It isn't just about what someone can do if they dip into one of their other available roles. It's a small part, yes, but you also have to consider the bigger picture - even if all roles were made to be within 5% of each other, the disparities in class design makes some class/specs woefully undesirable compared to others.

 

I'm going to respond to the gist of your post instead of the specifics, because honestly theorycrafting has no value in this discussion. We're not discussing how it is now, we're discussing what the design intent is. A lot of what you're talking about is subjective. Woefully undesirable to you may not be to me. As long as everyone performs their role comparably, the rest is just fluff. Some people prefer ranged over melee, other people prefer melee over ranged. Some like the playstyle of a particular spec/class and hate others. The inherent value of a given spec for a raid is the role it performs and whether it's ranged or melee where a variety is promoted but not required. Yes, specific fights may suit certain specs better than others, but it's not like the intent is that one spec/class does well in every single fight in the game.

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Heavy Melee tend to have very weak CC to make up for their armor advantage, while light classes tend to have fast-recharging defense cooldowns and lots of CC and kiting abilities. Neither heavy melee class has an escape mechanic or very much in the way of hard CC, while all the light/med melee do.

 

You think that balances things? Give me light armor and tons of mobility and CC anyday. Armor isn't worth squat in this game.

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