For those of you thinking about rolling an agent to be a damaging class, specifically operative. DO NOT. I am a 50 operative who's done a lot of pvp and pve and I am fed up with the lack of balance when it comes to the dps specs in this game. I have full BM and only missing chest and legs from the rakatta set all optimized, Valor rank 80.

 

This is going to be a wall of text, with an overview of our two damage specs, solutions that can easily fix it, also contains why we are weak in pvp and pve due to class imbalance.

 

Our Lethality so far is a joke due to the lack of TA generation without having to hybrid spec medicine, and then you will never be able to go up the tree all the way to get Weakening blast.. Which in itself is a joke. It does really weak damage, and the enhancing effect on our two dots does not work half the time. It's Suppose to work on cull, but due to the fact that we can only gain TA through shiv you can not effectively get cull's off without having to reapply your dots.

 

A simple solution to fix lethality, make Dots like Corrosive grenade have a % chance to give you a tactical advantage. That way, you have the TA generation of medicine and concealment, and improve its overall DPS.

 

Now, we get into our Main pve and pvp spec, concealment. It's high burst, especially coming out of stealth, but lacks key sustained dps like all the other damage classes have.

It also NEEDS a gap closer, and on fights where you can't start out in stealth, Example 3rd boss in Karagga who does an immediate AOE knockback, you are at a disadvantage. It also does not have good out of stealth defenses for being a melee class.

 

Solutions to fix: Either add to Sever tendon a 5/10 meter range increase and usable in stealth, OR give us a gap closer!!!!!!! Turn infiltration into a type of "force speed" or a grappling hook that pulls us to the target or something.

 

For an increase in sustained damage, make a talent high in the concealment tree that reduces the energy cost of overload blast and makes it so that our next Hidden strike is usable out of stealth.. I would even be happy if this replaced our knockdown talent.

That way, your so called "team of operatives" wouldn't be stun locking all over the place and would make most of us happy.

 

For a defense boost: First, remove the "when you dodge/resist" portion of energy screen, and instead put it something like the BH's defense, or Make that trait a baseline ability so that Medics and leths aren't sitting ducks after they use their cloaking screen and put in an entirely new talent that on a crit we get a certain % of damage reduction for X seconds.

 

Utility: WE HAVE NONE! we have an in combat rez, and we can cloak rez. ADD some to make us group worthy. Snipers have an armor debuff that they can put on targets, we should get something similar so that people will take us.

 

 

Now to the pvp part of this wall of text.

 

I have done a ton of warzones to earn my valor rank of 80 and from my observations, the majority of classes in warzones are, Warriors, Bounty hunters, and Inquistiors.. Once in a blue moon you see an agent.

 

Maurauders have too many defensive cooldowns, and can kill people faster than an operative could pre 1.1.1 yet bioware does nothing about them.

 

Juggs can survive anything that we throw at them while we barley clink away at their 20k + health. I have also witnessed full BM juggs crit for 7k (after removal of buff stacking)

 

Bounty hunters- Powertechs are usually pryo, meaning they have heavy armor, see stealth from miles away, and completely ignore armor, killing people faster than we ever could before 1.1.1. Does Bioware do anything to them? No.

 

Mercenaries- Healing is getting reduced in 1.2 but they will still be god healers in pvp. Tracer missile mercs are still owning post 1.2 and their sustained dps has INCREASED drastically due to more procs in their channel move and 10% more damage to their heatseeker missile which is already critting people for 6k in warzones.

 

Inquisitors- Assassins are all tank hybrids, giving them their stealth only move the ability to be used out of stealth, defenses, self heals, and a pull.. they also have stealth and a gap closer, a knockdown, at least one knockback, two stuns and have crit me for 7k in full BM gear. Yet Bioware does nothing to change them.

 

Sorcs-Well documented in other parts of the forums on how overpowered they are.

 

What makes me probably the most ticked off, is the fact that Bioware has publicly stated that agents are "on target" in terms of dps, yet, we struggle in pve. I have personally played through act 1 on a BH, A warrior, a knight, a sorc, and of course my agent. Out of all the "hard" fights in each of the stories, The agent was the most difficult, even fighting on level with stims and health packs pre 1.1.1. Every other class, I didn't break a sweat on, beating them 3-4 levels UNDER the target level and did not use any stims or health packs.

 

This is the underlying problem and is why there isn't a lot of agents in the game.. Does bioware even care about us? Signs are pointing to no. we were the last class developed, and the first to get "balanced" yet we weren't given anything in return. I am hoping that one day they will get their heads out of their rectum on our class, but for now, If you want to do damage.. DO NOT ROLL AN OPERATIVE.

 

Thanks for sticking through this wall of text, Which is probably going to be removed or deleted by a mod because they want to cover up how bad the agent class is.

Edited April 11, 2012 by Fallenturtle

Agreed.

 

This week i tried to pug some operations. The ops leader told me that 'operative DPS is so low that he would prefer to take 2VR8 over any operative DPS.

 

You know there is a problem when stuff like this happens and they nerf dps even more. We know that some players whine about how 'good we are', but the single most obvious indicator of class balance is class representation. Operatives are the least represented class on my server. (Sorcs and assassins, on the other hand, are everywhere to be found).

 

I understand that BW is trying to make changes to reduce our immediate out-of-stealth burst and stun capabilities, but they need to understand that is pretty much the ONLY thing we could do well.

 

The problem is they are going about it the wrong way. They are just flat-out killing their viability in PVE.

 

I think one possible solution would be to turn hidden strike into a soft hitting move with bleeding DOT+stun, but increase its overall damage. This could reduce our burst and increase our sustained DPS. You could do the same with backstab too.

i just got done playing hut ball total of 5 snipers took 4 min to kill one jedi councler we all off loaded everything we had on to him , 4 freaking min to kill him his heals out done us all as well as his shilds helped , if were one of us we wouldnt last 3 seconds and all it would take is one jedi or trooper to smack us down and out.

While we're not great at the moment we're still viable. Anyone that says otherwise is buying into the Chicken Little hype.

They need to forgo this Tactical Advantage BS and remove it from Cull.

While we're not great at the moment we're still viable. Anyone that says otherwise is buying into the Chicken Little hype.

Viable? Yeah, sure.

 

You know what else is viable? Only taking 7 people to complete 8 man HM ops. (aside from very few fights that require 8 for mechanical reasons) That's right, taking NO ONE in place of deciding to take an operative DPS is "viable," as the content can be completed that way.

 

"Viable" does not mean "acceptable."

"Viable" does not mean "desirable."

"Viable" does not mean "worthwhile."

"Viable" does not mean "appropriately approaching balanced."

"Viable" does not mean "well designed."

"Viable" does not mean "fun to play as in a social setting where you are rejected based on your inability to perform due to only being 'viable' and not functional."

"Viable" does not mean "fun to play with, when their presence means you will be working extra hard to clear content, have less room for error and spend more frustrating time wiping because they are 'viable' instead of functional."

It's true. I like a challenge. I find the class very challenging because it's frankly lacking in any kind of coherent design and has one entirely useless skill tree. Medical is about all you want to try hard mode with, so you can off heal, but then you're denying the group someone that can actually dps.

 

The lack of a knockback hampers the class in pvp. That, along with the lack of sustained damage means that you are basically a vulture. You lurk on the edge and try to get off a backstqb on an already damaged target.

 

The idea that they would nerf hidden strike is ludicrous. It's about the only chance we have to actually land a killing blow, and that's because the target is already heavily damaged.

All i can think of is that ops get hate from people because after using adrenals/pots/etc they kill them as fast as marauder/pyroBH/etc. In a few globals. Its just same thing like with sorcs-People only actually see the fact they got stunlocked/shocked with lightings to death. They only see Stunlock! Its because this class was MADE to start fights like this! Did rogues in WOW got nerfed because they could stunlock people? NO-it was considered working as DESIGNED.

But no. Ops are still overpowered! Theres tons of them playing this game, and teams full of operatives wreck pvp. Yeah, gg.

I feel like BW doesnt know what they actually want classes to be and try to appeal some vocal whiners on forums. Pretty sad tbh.

Unfortunately, Operatives are a perfect example of PvP having a negative impact on PvE.

 

Once we get out DPS logs in 1.2, we'll be able to better formulate our opinions, and thus our suggestions to the game developers. At the moment, they can dismiss what we say based on their internal metrics which we cannot refute. In less than a week, we'll have a true DPS tier list, with full knowledge of every specification's level. Yes, many seasoned players can formulate an opinion based on their instinct, but soon we'll have fact.

post full of fail and half truth.

@OP

Have you played pre 1.1 concealment?

Current maras/pt don't kill people faster or as fast as pre nerfs concealment. Basicly, with luck and appropiate gear you were able to kill people in 2 gcds (especially sorcs and sins). And do it on regular basis. Sure, PT with luck can output insane burst, but again, it happens not so often. Sins/shadows don't have 2 stuns and 2 knockbacks and to crit for 7k in darkness tree... Maybe it will happen once in a month on a target with a lot -armor debuffs and with adrenal/relic used. Maras? 80% of them are anni, they don't really have burst you claim they have.

 

Im not saying that I don't agree with you on overall evaluation of operative both in PVE and PVP (especially PVE), but you should at least try to be objective with claims you do about other classes.

We got Ilummed.

 

Let me explain:

 

Ilum was an obligatory open world PvP area which Bioware progressively applied band-aids to to try to make it viable and fun. In the end, they removed all incentive to go there (but you still can, if you want) while they dream up what they want Ilum to be when it grows up.

 

Operatives got Ilummed, as well: progressively applied some reactionary band-aids based on out-of-what specs by the tippity-toppity folks geared in the best stuff and swinging for the fences. 4 or 5 band-aids, both across the board (although hitting us disproportionately hard, i.e., Surge nerf-herding) and with our class specifically in Conceal.

 

They have apparently given up on making Conceal fun or compelling (but you can still do it) given us a better (read: mostly fixed) medical line, and thus Concealment has been Ilummed, waiting to figure out what it wants to be...someday.

While we're not great at the moment we're still viable. Anyone that says otherwise is buying into the Chicken Little hype.

 

I agree with the OP but to this ^^ comment the ONLY reason we are viable (cause our dps REALLY sucks) is cause we can stun someone while another dps does you know, actual dps which stops heals, even that is being taken out in 1.2, making us useless, we USE to be good when the game released, but the problem is we are sorc / sages anti class (was) which is the most popular played class, we beat them, we got THAT many whingers to Bioware we got nerfed, and now apparently its still not enough (Even tho we can't kill healers 1v1 if they are the same gear or above or even close) they are going to nerf us further, no logic what so ever.

Unfortunately, Operatives are a perfect example of PvP having a negative impact on PvE.

 

 

I'd say that it's an example of poorly thought out class mechanics and balance effecting both. Balancing every class for both shouldn't be too difficult. DPS should be roughly equal, squishy melee who need to be up close and personal will need more DPS to make up for time off the boss or enough gap closers that it doesn't matter. If you also balance out utility, then expertise should take care of the rest. The problem is that bioware seems to think major class nerfs without any kind of re-adjustment are all you need.

@OP

Have you played pre 1.1 concealment?

Current maras/pt don't kill people faster or as fast as pre nerfs concealment. Basicly, with luck and appropiate gear you were able to kill people in 2 gcds (especially sorcs and sins). And do it on regular basis. Sure, PT with luck can output insane burst, but again, it happens not so often. Sins/shadows don't have 2 stuns and 2 knockbacks and to crit for 7k in darkness tree... Maybe it will happen once in a month on a target with a lot -armor debuffs and with adrenal/relic used. Maras? 80% of them are anni, they don't really have burst you claim they have.

 

Im not saying that I don't agree with you on overall evaluation of operative both in PVE and PVP (especially PVE), but you should at least try to be objective with claims you do about other classes.

 

I did, and yes we killed people fast. The issue is that our defensive cooldowns sucked, so we'd pop on someone, kill them, and then die unless we could vanish. I understand why this isn't desirable, so I understand the nerfs. The problem is that we didn't get any mobility, and our defensive cooldowns still suck. Nowadays, operatives are really easy to deal with because once they're outside 10m they're basically helpless. There's a reason that highly mobile melee classes with decent defensive CDs are the ones being complained about today (tankasins, marauders, etc.)

post full of fail and half truth.

 

I tend to agree must be my server where those nasty really good ops play 4 on 1 4 mins no one can stun or interrupt I heard of bad but damn I just delete now lol...

 

Sorcs-Well documented in posts on how overpowered they are.

 

 

You don't know a damn thing if you seriously think Sorcs are overpowered as an Operative.

 

Forgot everything you wrote after I saw that.

Edited April 9, 2012 by Wheelerific

It's crazy to watch a player on ops on my server just dismantle player after player and come here reading this just makes me /facepalm....

If he's "dismantling" people it's because he's waiting for the opportune moment to strike. I.e. They just used cooldowns, someone else is just starting to dps on them, or they are already damaged. Either that or he has so much gear advantage that he can backstab jesus.

 

save your escape move for debilitate and stop wasting it for the hidden strike knock flat.

If he's "dismantling" people it's because he's waiting for the opportune moment to strike. I.e. They just used cooldowns, someone else is just starting to dps on them, or they are already damaged. Either that or he has so much gear advantage that he can backstab jesus.

 

save your escape move for debilitate and stop wasting it for the hidden strike knock flat.

 

Then a lot of players are doing it wrong lol. We have quite a few well geared ops that do quite well contrary to all the crying its l2p issue.

 

The most fun was when Hallow dressed in sorc gear I should have screen captured that match he plays exactly how a ops should play this isn't a 1 vs 1 death match game.

Edited April 9, 2012 by LordbishopX

No matter what your opinions are though about how right the OP is (although it appears he's had a lot of experience to support his information), it still doesn't change the fact that dps Operatives are getting the shaft by the general population when it comes to being taken in group content. That has to say something about the current state of the Operative. And I can attest in my own experience.....I do a lot more dps in group content on my sniper than I do on my operative. But even then, I feel like my sniper isn't doing as much damage as mercs or marauders. (there was another thread about the sniper dps too)

Can't wait for 1.2 so some real parsing can be done instead of I feel...

It's crazy to watch a player on ops on my server just dismantle player after player and come here reading this just makes me /facepalm....

Speaking as one of the Ops that "just dismantle player after player", it's not because Operatives are overpowered, it's because there are so many players that don't have a clue what they're doing in a warzone. I'm very good at capitalizing on noobs.

 

If you're whining about Operatives, most likely it's a L2P issue, not an overpowered issue.

Speaking as one of the Ops that "just dismantle player after player", it's not because Operatives are overpowered, it's because there are so many players that don't have a clue what they're doing in a warzone. I'm very good at capitalizing on noobs.

 

If you're whining about Operatives, most likely it's a L2P issue, not an overpowered issue.

 

 

Speaking of which I never stated they were OP in the least just good players that know how to play why oh why do peeps read what they want to read....