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Class changes: Nerf vs. Buff


Kaldron_Fell

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EXACTLY how I feel. The Decoy change to Mercs was 100% needed...the nerf to damage was not.

 

You see... I'm of a different mindset here, based on an expectation of the utility pass in August.

 

I have a feeling that the utility pass in August will add in some of the lost damage for mercs at the same time as addressing the DCD issues. I'm entirely expecting utility-backed burst to go up to mildly offset the brutality of the damage nerf now. I also think that's the reason they're holding off on Lightning changes, because most of that ACs problems stem from underperforming CDs and not from base damage numbers. Same with sorc heals; I have a feeling that they'll add some of the lost HPS in by tweaking utilities and CDs in August ( which is what they did with Operatives when their heals got nerfed into the ground ). Madness is likely going to get a raw damage buff this time around, with tweaks to the utility backing its offheals in August.

 

All in all, it's a really stupid way of going about the problem because they're slow-burning it whilst alienating large chunks of the community. Player numbers ARE dropping right now, and this approach to balance is only going to make that issue worse. It's a shame, because we might find that September brings fresh balance and a good overall place to be in... but their mismanagement of this entire affair is glaring ( no matter how much Eric tries to spin it ).

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If you want to understand the impacts of changes on complex systems, you make them in small increments and small groups; which is what this looks like.

 

Regardless of overall effectiveness, some specs are overperforming against the expected raw DPS baseline against dummies; that's being addressed first , probably because it's the easiest thing to tune and see the effects of. Once that baseline is laid down, then they can take a look at why performance against bosses is out of line with design.

 

If they make too many changes at once, they don't know what or why the end state happened. This is all part of diagnosing complex systems; you start with the simplest and easiest changes, then move deeper into the weeds.

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If you want to understand the impacts of changes on complex systems, you make them in small increments and small groups; which is what this looks like.

 

Regardless of overall effectiveness, some specs are overperforming against the expected raw DPS baseline against dummies; that's being addressed first , probably because it's the easiest thing to tune and see the effects of. Once that baseline is laid down, then they can take a look at why performance against bosses is out of line with design.

 

If they make too many changes at once, they don't know what or why the end state happened. This is all part of diagnosing complex systems; you start with the simplest and easiest changes, then move deeper into the weeds.

 

The problem isn't the approach, it's the burn rate. They're making the easy changes first, but it's taking them an age to achieve those changes. I agree with the idea of making the easy changes first, but not at a pace that would make my grandfather complain. And my grandfather can't walk. Because he's dead.

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dot spread is way overrated. most bosses are single target....no one to dot spread to. Who cares about dot spread. It does nothing. Most bosses dont stand next to their adds.

 

If your tanks are good then no, dot spread isn't useless.

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dot spread is way overrated. most bosses are single target....no one to dot spread to. Who cares about dot spread. It does nothing. Most bosses dont stand next to their adds.

 

Malaphar, Sword Squardron, Revanite Commanders, Bonecrusher, Sparky, Gharj, Foreman Crusher, Karagga, Warlord Kephess [Kinda, sorta], Writhing Horror [When people screw up heh], Dash’roode, TITAN 6 [if people are smart], Grob’thok [depending on strategy used], Corruptor Zero [like a mofo], Bestia [when people aren't fast enough], Torque. Just off the top of my head. Some of these some group strategies may mitigate this some.

 

DoT spreading in PVP is just all sorts of lame if your just padding your numbers with fluff damage. Like people are idiots and don't realize heh

Edited by WayOfTheWarriorx
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DoT spreading in PVP is just all sorts of lame if your just padding your numbers with fluff damage. Like people are idiots and don't realize heh

 

Yeah. The reason you see Juggs topping the Damage numbers is because we spam Chilling Scream (with Piercing Chill). We spam it for the buff/debuff (and the unstealthing), not just the damage, but the damage just adds up because we literally always have it up on someone (if the Jugg isn't an idiot anyway). On an individual basis the damage is very small - ~500 DPS - but spread over everyone it's on, the numbers add up over a match.

 

Oh, if you're an Immortal Jugg and you're not taking Piercing Chill, you're simply wrong, IMO. Unless you don't like a 35% movement speed buff and having Chiling Scream destealth enemies, anyway; in that case you're extra wrong.

Edited by stoopicus
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Yeah. The reason you see Juggs topping the Damage numbers is because we spam Chilling Scream (with Piercing Chill). We spam it for the buff/debuff (and the unstealthing), not just the damage, but the damage just adds up because we literally always have it up on someone (if the Jugg isn't an idiot anyway). On an individual basis the damage is very small - ~500 DPS - but spread over everyone it's on, the numbers add up over a match.

 

Oh, if you're an Immortal Jugg and you're not taking Piercing Chill, you're simply wrong, IMO. Unless you don't like a 35% movement speed buff and having Chiling Scream destealth enemies, anyway; in that case you're extra wrong.

 

Hey, I don't blame them, it's part of the rotation and there are resource managements issues in some cases, and some DoTs serve healing applications for certain specs. A lot of things are interwoven, and it's not always even about the damage persay, it could effect cool downs of other abilities, and have secondary effects like you mentioned. Utility choices often operate that way.

 

I just don't like when people talk smack about their DPS and lord it over others and pretend like they are such ******es when half their damage total comes from dot spreading. I see that a lot and it's maddening. Just feeds the toxicity when some people use it that way.

 

3 million from a Marksmen Sniper and 3 million from a Virulence Sniper are very different things.

 

I wish they would add a cateogory on WZ results that shows how much of the total damage a player does was from AOE/DoT spread. Wouldn't change the fact that they did legitimately do that much damage, but it would keep in perspective the contributions done by single target specs.

 

Or maybe I'm just an azz, I dunno heh. But the second I see a dot spreader talking smack to some single target spec player , "Git Gud", I hate knowing, that no matter what I do, I can't hit them heh Why say anything at all if they didn't do a thing to them?!?

 

Gotta love the ePen!

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And i repeat.. if my merc does not PvP at all - my computer is a garbage and i prefer to invest money in my motorcycle than in my computer - why should she be nerfed? Let's face it, everyone like to be in a flashpoint with a lvl 70 merc..

 

Why ? Because you are only one player with a particular playstyle. This is not a single player game. Others do pvp. Than again if a class is OP that goes against diversity as more and more players will gravitate towards its use on the expanse of other classes/content. This in the long run will hurt the game offering less replayability and fun what will lower interest in the game and lower sales. And while you may be fine with your solo merc pve, when queues start to take longer this will hurt you too. So it makes sense even for you to have a balanced game in the long run.

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Why ? Because you are only one player with a particular playstyle. This is not a single player game. Others do pvp. Than again if a class is OP that goes against diversity as more and more players will gravitate towards its use on the expanse of other classes/content. This in the long run will hurt the game offering less replayability and fun what will lower interest in the game and lower sales. And while you may be fine with your solo merc pve, when queues start to take longer this will hurt you too. So it makes sense even for you to have a balanced game in the long run.

 

Jaesa is OP, yet no one agrees that she HAS TO BE NERFED , so why should i agree that BH is OP ? And NO, I AM NOT OK WITH MY SOLO MERC PVE, i cannot solo Heroic + 2 Star Fortress, while a marauder with lvl 10 Jaesa can.

So cut the crap about class balance, if the developers have any common sense, the should NERF JAESA and leave mercenaries alone.

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The problem isn't the approach, it's the burn rate. They're making the easy changes first, but it's taking them an age to achieve those changes. I agree with the idea of making the easy changes first, but not at a pace that would make my grandfather complain. And my grandfather can't walk. Because he's dead.

 

What makes you think it can be done faster? Play testing is a long and tedious process, with few shortcuts.

 

Even if they are testing this round against target dummies, they still have to run their test cases thoroughly. Slapdash speed in development is one of the things that got us into this mess.

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And i repeat.. if my merc does not PvP at all - my computer is a garbage and i prefer to invest money in my motorcycle than in my computer - why should she be nerfed? Let's face it, everyone like to be in a flashpoint with a lvl 70 merc..

 

And that's why we seriously need to find a way to balance PVP and PVE separately. There's zero reason that PVE Raiders should suffer yet again because the PVPers are whining about merc DPS or Sorc heals instead of coming up with teambased ways to take them down. PVE Healers have had to adapt their play style time and again, it's time that PVPers learn to adapt.

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And that's why we seriously need to find a way to balance PVP and PVE separately.
Expertise was exactly what you're looking for...but it was never used properly. It became a flat boost/buff, not variable based on PvP performance. Expertise should have been calculated PER class and PER Advanced Class...not a static number like it was. Balance out PvE to their +/- 5%, then adjust Expertise bonuses as needed.
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Expertise was exactly what you're looking for...but it was never used properly. It became a flat boost/buff, not variable based on PvP performance. Expertise should have been calculated PER class and PER Advanced Class...not a static number like it was. Balance out PvE to their +/- 5%, then adjust Expertise bonuses as needed.

 

They could still do an expertise-like mechanic; it doesn't have to be tied to gear, or even visible.

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They could still do an expertise-like mechanic; it doesn't have to be tied to gear, or even visible.

Absolutely they could Ian. They SHOULD too. It allows a ton of flexibility that is PvP only, that they don't have right now.

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Absolutely they could Ian. They SHOULD too. It allows a ton of flexibility that is PvP only, that they don't have right now.

 

I agree that they should do it. However, I think they should do this after the dummy-parse balance pass and a hypothetical utilities balance pass. Which is a crying shame.

 

They're doing now stuff that should have been ongoing a lot earlier. But that's an old and tired rant of mine.

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  • 2 months later...
Hey folks,

 

Any time that nerfs happen during Class balance, there is a common question we receive “Instead of nerfing <insert Class>, why not buff all of the other Classes up to their performance?” This is a really good question and we want to try to explain to you why we handle balance this way. For starters, if you haven’t read our detailed breakdown of how we balance Classes, please start there. From that thread, the main point you need to understand is that we balance Classes/Disciplines based on specific DPS, HPS, and DTPS targets.

 

Now, those balance targets not only dictate Class/Discipline balance, but they dictate balance across all combat in the entire game. Every Mission, Operation boss, piece of gear, and more is all factored around those balance targets. Let’s say that our hypothetical target for Ranged Burst is 1000 DPS and that Arsenal Mercs are currently performing at 1,200 DPS. This means that they are killing everything in the game 20% faster than we intended them to. Again, that’s every boss and every Mission. The inverse is true of Classes that have lower than desired DPS.

 

If we took every Class and moved it so that it was equal to the highest performing one, now everyone would be way stronger than we intended based on our balance targets. PvE content in general would become too easy, the “time to kill” in PvP would go down quite a bit making for less counter-play. The only way we would be able to “move everyone up to the best Class” is if we simultaneously rebalanced the entire game to be equal to that new target. That kind of thing typically only happens when we increase the level cap, as it is a massive undertaking.

 

TLDR – The entire game’s combat revolves around balance targets. To keep things in-line we have to move Classes up or down to be around that target or it throws things off greatly from their intended balance.

 

-eric

After 5.3, 5.4 and what's coming in 5.5. Let's all take a time to appreciate how limited, short-sighted and flawed this view is. Yes, your game might be balanced out on certain numbers. But then you introduce new gear. Do you need to re-balance all the classes cause you put new gear in? Every time? Cause that's what you did here.

 

Nerfing a class by 1-2% can be understandable, if that one specific spec over performs and means you have a choice between nerfing one or buffing 15. Nerfing 8 different specs by 2-10%, 6 months into an update. This is not something that you can justify by "things are dying XX% faster than we intend them to", especially since you just introduced a new tier of gear.

 

So far you nerfed (and announced to nerf) 8 DPS specs (quite a few of them brutally) and 1 heal spec (while it being pretty clear there might be other heal nerfs coming). Buffed 6 DPS specs (with most of them being only small/insignificant buffs). This is no question an overall nerf. I can't talk much about PVP, but from my experience all these changes don't really do nothing to help the state right now (dem damn utilities). Maybe only the sorc change (too big) helped balanced the healers out a bit. Also 5% DPS isn't as big a deal in PVP. Anyway I must assume these were mostly PVE changes (for DPS anyway).

 

You basically introduced a new tier of gear (that we didn't really want in the first place but w/e, most don't have any strong feelings about it), and then started to nerf everything back so this new gear wouldn't make us OP (and in the case of quite a few specs post 5.3 numbers with 248 gear are lower than pre 248 gear). Anyway this approach is very wrong. It removes the sense of progress people have, makes them angry they can't kill stuff they used to be able to, and instead of content becoming more and more accessible as time goes on (like it happened in every other expansion), you're making it less accessible. This does not generate new content, it only frustrates players. You lost development time fixing things that weren't broken from a player perspective. You could've fixed the really under performing classes (DPS wise, so sorcs, pyro, hatred) and really overperforming (small arsenal nerf) in 5.3, and already have survivability issues done in 5.4 and have worked on more new content.

 

Hoped you learned from this and won't do this error again (if class balancing ever happens again). You can't dismiss player experience and only look at numbers when it comes to class balancing.

Edited by Eloi_BG
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Hey folks,

 

Any time that nerfs happen during Class balance, there is a common question we receive “Instead of nerfing <insert Class>, why not buff all of the other Classes up to their performance?” This is a really good question and we want to try to explain to you why we handle balance this way. For starters, if you haven’t read our detailed breakdown of how we balance Classes, please start there. From that thread, the main point you need to understand is that we balance Classes/Disciplines based on specific DPS, HPS, and DTPS targets.

 

Now, those balance targets not only dictate Class/Discipline balance, but they dictate balance across all combat in the entire game. Every Mission, Operation boss, piece of gear, and more is all factored around those balance targets. Let’s say that our hypothetical target for Ranged Burst is 1000 DPS and that Arsenal Mercs are currently performing at 1,200 DPS. This means that they are killing everything in the game 20% faster than we intended them to. Again, that’s every boss and every Mission. The inverse is true of Classes that have lower than desired DPS.

 

If we took every Class and moved it so that it was equal to the highest performing one, now everyone would be way stronger than we intended based on our balance targets. PvE content in general would become too easy, the “time to kill” in PvP would go down quite a bit making for less counter-play. The only way we would be able to “move everyone up to the best Class” is if we simultaneously rebalanced the entire game to be equal to that new target. That kind of thing typically only happens when we increase the level cap, as it is a massive undertaking.

 

TLDR – The entire game’s combat revolves around balance targets. To keep things in-line we have to move Classes up or down to be around that target or it throws things off greatly from their intended balance.

 

-eric

 

See, this is the problem, Bioware are not just to arrogant to admit they are wrong. They actually think they are right. The stubbornness is an organizational wide problem. This games demise accelerates everyday because Bioware refuses to be critical of itself or listen to its customers.

 

If you keep doing what you've always done, you'll get getting what you've always gotten.

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Hey folks,

 

Any time that nerfs happen during Class balance, there is a common question we receive “Instead of nerfing <insert Class>, why not buff all of the other Classes up to their performance?” This is a really good question and we want to try to explain to you why we handle balance this way. For starters, if you haven’t read our detailed breakdown of how we balance Classes, please start there. From that thread, the main point you need to understand is that we balance Classes/Disciplines based on specific DPS, HPS, and DTPS targets.

 

Now, those balance targets not only dictate Class/Discipline balance, but they dictate balance across all combat in the entire game. Every Mission, Operation boss, piece of gear, and more is all factored around those balance targets. Let’s say that our hypothetical target for Ranged Burst is 1000 DPS and that Arsenal Mercs are currently performing at 1,200 DPS. This means that they are killing everything in the game 20% faster than we intended them to. Again, that’s every boss and every Mission. The inverse is true of Classes that have lower than desired DPS.

 

If we took every Class and moved it so that it was equal to the highest performing one, now everyone would be way stronger than we intended based on our balance targets. PvE content in general would become too easy, the “time to kill” in PvP would go down quite a bit making for less counter-play. The only way we would be able to “move everyone up to the best Class” is if we simultaneously rebalanced the entire game to be equal to that new target. That kind of thing typically only happens when we increase the level cap, as it is a massive undertaking.

 

TLDR – The entire game’s combat revolves around balance targets. To keep things in-line we have to move Classes up or down to be around that target or it throws things off greatly from their intended balance.

 

-eric

 

I'm not sure if you guys just don't care or you're just not understanding what you're doing, but your nerfs/buffs/changes are way off and the game is not played on some nerds spreadsheet. You're creating more problems than you're solving. It's very frustrating. I also do not think you guys understand just how lucky you are that there is litterally NO OTHER MMORPG OUT that's similar to this one. If there was, you'd have credit farmers and a handful of Star Wars fans playing this game and thats it. Anyone playing it for actual content or PVP would be gone.

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I'm not sure if you guys just don't care or you're just not understanding what you're doing, but your nerfs/buffs/changes are way off and the game is not played on some nerds spreadsheet. You're creating more problems than you're solving. It's very frustrating. I also do not think you guys understand just how lucky you are that there is litterally NO OTHER MMORPG OUT that's similar to this one. If there was, you'd have credit farmers and a handful of Star Wars fans playing this game and thats it. Anyone playing it for actual content or PVP would be gone.

Could not agree more. Very well said.

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Hey folks,

 

Any time that nerfs happen during Class balance, there is a common question we receive “Instead of nerfing <insert Class>, why not buff all of the other Classes up to their performance?” This is a really good question and we want to try to explain to you why we handle balance this way. For starters, if you haven’t read our detailed breakdown of how we balance Classes, please start there. From that thread, the main point you need to understand is that we balance Classes/Disciplines based on specific DPS, HPS, and DTPS targets.

 

Now, those balance targets not only dictate Class/Discipline balance, but they dictate balance across all combat in the entire game. Every Mission, Operation boss, piece of gear, and more is all factored around those balance targets. Let’s say that our hypothetical target for Ranged Burst is 1000 DPS and that Arsenal Mercs are currently performing at 1,200 DPS. This means that they are killing everything in the game 20% faster than we intended them to. Again, that’s every boss and every Mission. The inverse is true of Classes that have lower than desired DPS.

 

If we took every Class and moved it so that it was equal to the highest performing one, now everyone would be way stronger than we intended based on our balance targets. PvE content in general would become too easy, the “time to kill” in PvP would go down quite a bit making for less counter-play. The only way we would be able to “move everyone up to the best Class” is if we simultaneously rebalanced the entire game to be equal to that new target. That kind of thing typically only happens when we increase the level cap, as it is a massive undertaking.

 

TLDR – The entire game’s combat revolves around balance targets. To keep things in-line we have to move Classes up or down to be around that target or it throws things off greatly from their intended balance.

 

-eric

 

The whole problem being that your numbers are way off when you apply them to real fights or content.

The target dps for Hatred seems to be way too low, otherwise it could be able to clear almost every HM content, which isn't possible for now, and I'm just quoting one spec because I know it. ^^

You balance around target that aren't in any way like an operation boss or another player, your whole spreadsheets are wrong because they don't take into consideration the defensives ability of a spec, its mobility or even game mechanics. You choosed to fix something that wasn't broken (except for sorc healer but it didn't change much, the class has lost its initial goal of «on demand burst») instead of running to fix the very problem which is here since 5.0 : defensives ability

You would have fixed those first, the whole game would have been different. You would have increased bosses HP by a little, everything would have been different, because it didn't include «nerf everything» in the equation. I'd really like to know «why» you didn't do things in this order, and why your order and way of doing things is better for this game in your opinion.

Currently, if I take my madness sorcerer, with a somewhat 242-248 gear I can't complete all content or meet the required dps check for some fights. Could you care to explain why ? Is this intended ? If not, can we hope to see a solution to this who do not include a nerf of every class in the game ?

 

I think those are the questions you truly need to answer honestly before everyone quit this game for good. :rolleyes:

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Hey folks,

 

Any time that nerfs happen during Class balance, there is a common question we receive “Instead of nerfing <insert Class>, why not buff all of the other Classes up to their performance?” This is a really good question and we want to try to explain to you why we handle balance this way. For starters, if you haven’t read our detailed breakdown of how we balance Classes, please start there. From that thread, the main point you need to understand is that we balance Classes/Disciplines based on specific DPS, HPS, and DTPS targets.

 

Now, those balance targets not only dictate Class/Discipline balance, but they dictate balance across all combat in the entire game. Every Mission, Operation boss, piece of gear, and more is all factored around those balance targets. Let’s say that our hypothetical target for Ranged Burst is 1000 DPS and that Arsenal Mercs are currently performing at 1,200 DPS. This means that they are killing everything in the game 20% faster than we intended them to. Again, that’s every boss and every Mission. The inverse is true of Classes that have lower than desired DPS.

 

If we took every Class and moved it so that it was equal to the highest performing one, now everyone would be way stronger than we intended based on our balance targets. PvE content in general would become too easy, the “time to kill” in PvP would go down quite a bit making for less counter-play. The only way we would be able to “move everyone up to the best Class” is if we simultaneously rebalanced the entire game to be equal to that new target. That kind of thing typically only happens when we increase the level cap, as it is a massive undertaking.

 

TLDR – The entire game’s combat revolves around balance targets. To keep things in-line we have to move Classes up or down to be around that target or it throws things off greatly from their intended balance.

 

-eric

 

If you have to move classes down it means you previously Fked up and made them too high.

 

BioFail in either case.

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As true as that is, when the PvPers say "Mercs are really hard to kill right now" and Bioware responds with "okay we'll make it harder for them to kill bosses", it leaves a bit of a bitter taste..

Im sure it leaves a bitter taste when the tools are in place to negate the power of a merc, but players dont use the tools. Mercs really arent as powerful as people think, players just dont adapt very well. The dcd's can be overcome, but not in addition to excessive dps, so BW took away some of the damage output, and left the solution to killing a merc in the hands of the players who choose to use the effective tools already given.

 

Its a recurring theme - playerd dont take responsibility for solving their complaint, and often their only solution is to make the wrong thing easier.

Edited by olagatonjedi
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I think buffs would be better received too...but for some reason, I think it's easier for them to use the nerf hammer...it's probably less work somehow.

 

The reason I think buffs would be better, is because they're regarded more positively and it would bring up the classes that aren't as strong without diminishing anyone's fun, at least not straight away, until a new uber class emerges. Of course, that means, they'd have to up the difficulty on the bosses and such. Which might not be a bad thing, given what a face roll this game is really. I can 'one key' to death most things.

Edited by Lunafox
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