Any spec can be viable in regs, even PTs and Rage juggs.

For solo ranked.. umm yes and no. Juggs are often focused first, as they have no real escape to speak of, and they will do a lot of damage and possible guard / taunt if let alone. Don't do ranked with Rage though. It is very susceptible to stun and has less DR than vengeance.

For group ranked vengeance is occasionally outright requested, as they are good in cleave matches.

In 8 man wz they are one of the best (in my opinion the most fun class)

Solo ranked they are the worst if its 4dps vs 4dps.

If youre lucky and you have a heal in the team and maybe a tank its quite a good class:D

In 8 man wz they are one of the best (in my opinion the most fun class)

 

Solo ranked they are the worst if its 4dps vs 4dps.

If youre lucky and you have a heal in the team and maybe a tank its quite a good class:D

I would still prefer a jugg to a PT or even a sin. With all these mercs looming about, it is basically impossible to play a sin in ranked. Of the 8 sins/shadows in top 100 I suspect most of them are running as tanks.

I would still prefer a jugg to a PT or even a sin. With all these mercs looming about, it is basically impossible to play a sin in ranked. Of the 8 sins/shadows in top 100 I suspect most of them are running as tanks.

I hear Dps Sins they aren’t too bad in granked. But solo is a killer for most. I tried for a week to see if it was only my lack of ability, but it’s was bad or I was bad or both lol

In 8 man wz they are one of the best (in my opinion the most fun class)

Yeah, I love my Rage Jugg in 8 man. People always tell me it’s a poor mans fury. But I play both classes and both play differently with different tactics.

It just comes down to what you prefer and what’s fun. I think both classes are fun and its why I swap between them.

I would still prefer a jugg to a PT or even a sin. With all these mercs looming about, it is basically impossible to play a sin in ranked. Of the 8 sins/shadows in top 100 I suspect most of them are running as tanks.

I hear Dps Sins they aren’t too bad in granked. But solo is a killer for most. I tried for a week to see if it was only my lack of ability, but it’s was bad or I was bad or both lol

In my opinion, sins are much better in solos than juggs. The reason is that sins can choose when they engage at the beginning of a fight, they can choose when to engage again once they stealth out and heal, and they have the ability to off guard effectively if they so choose. Juggs do not get the luxury of stealth, or any kind of escape or kiting ability really. Obviously juggs can technically off guard too, but it is almost never a good idea for them, because they are targeted first anyway.

Echoing Lundorff's words, any spec can be totally viable in PVP. It just depends on your knowledge with the class and how well you can play it, how well you can kite and LOS etc. Juggs can most certainly be good in PVP, if you know your strengths and boundaries of the class. I.e. when you're out of DCDs, you better be prepared to run and kite.

This is unfortunately a little misleading. In solo ranked you are free to play whatever you want, but every spec is not created equally. Vengeance is in a pretty good place in terms of damage and cc resistance, but the lack of an anti-focus ability means the entire enemy team is going to go for you because they know you don't have an escape. Contrary to what people are telling you no amount of kiting is going to save you from being tunneled in a 4 DPS vs 4 DPS comp. Your only hope in this matchup is to convince your team before the match starts to actually attack the people that are attacking you.

Rage, while fun, is in an even worse position because it lacks the damage reduction and cc immunity that Vengeance has. Both can be played ( I still play both specs in solo ranked from time to time ) but know you need to bring your A game and know how to play against mercs, snipers, operatives, and marauders to even stand a chance.

On the flip side DPS Jugg is a blast in solo ranked with a healer and a tank to guard you. If you're left alone you can do some serious damage. They're also a blast in 8v8s since you typically have a healer and other players to take some of the heat ( or an objective to capture ). Again I can't stress enough if you're going to play DPS Jugg you need to know how to fight ranged classes, operatives, and marauders. You can win most 1v1s if you know what you're doing.

In my opinion, sins are much better in solos than juggs. The reason is that sins can choose when they engage at the beginning of a fight, they can choose when to engage again once they stealth out and heal, and they have the ability to off guard effectively if they so choose. Juggs do not get the luxury of stealth, or any kind of escape or kiting ability really. Obviously juggs can technically off guard too, but it is almost never a good idea for them, because they are targeted first anyway.

Well yes they can delay combat for as long as they want, but that leaves the rest of the team 4 v 3. If your team has a jugg or pt, then yes the other side might opt burn either down first, but sin/shadows are often always second in line, as the defenses are almost as terrible as PTs. And cloaking out and healing up is often easier said than done, and even when you do manage to run, the rest of your team often dies while healing. (This is all for sranked).

PTs are still worse though: only 3 PTs/Vangs in top100. In comparison there are 16 juggs / guardians in top 100.

Defensively without a healer by far the best dps is merc. In second is the sniper due to its multitude of roots stuns rolls, knockbacks, entrench, and of course dcds and diversion.

The rest of the classes are somewhat midtier with mara having a slight edge over the others.

Of course pt is still the pathetic wretch of a class it has been for 2 years but that's ok. At least they didn't give merc dcds to pt when 5.0 launched or pt would be the FOTM class.

Juggs are strictly mid tier unless we are talking rage which is the poor man's fury imo.

Well yes they can delay combat for as long as they want, but that leaves the rest of the team 4 v 3. If your team has a jugg or pt, then yes the other side might opt burn either down first, but sin/shadows are often always second in line, as the defenses are almost as terrible as PTs. And cloaking out and healing up is often easier said than done, and even when you do manage to run, the rest of your team often dies while healing. (This is all for sranked).

 

PTs are still worse though: only 3 PTs/Vangs in top100. In comparison there are 16 juggs / guardians in top 100.

But if they plan to focus the sin all out, and the sin delays, the enemy team will start on something else. Once you come out of stealth, if they switch to you, your team has had a big head start on focusing your target. Same thing for when you stealth out, heal, and re-engage. Your team should have secured a kill, assuming they continued to focus, while the enemy was split between focusing you when you were up and someone else on your team (and teams often flounder when the focus target disappears). If you play this way, and are consistently annoying to kill, there's a good chance the other team will opt to focus someone else entirely. Juggs can't do any of that.

Defensively without a healer by far the best dps is merc. In second is the sniper due to its multitude of roots stuns rolls, knockbacks, entrench, and of course dcds and diversion.

 

The rest of the classes are somewhat midtier with mara having a slight edge over the others.

 

Of course pt is still the pathetic wretch of a class it has been for 2 years but that's ok. At least they didn't give merc dcds to pt when 5.0 launched or pt would be the FOTM class.

 

 

Juggs are strictly mid tier unless we are talking rage which is the poor man's fury imo.

Fury mara is second to merc in my opinion, and there's a decent-sized gap between mara and sniper/operative. I'm not sure how Juggs can be mid-tier when they are the second worst class (at least for solos). Also, I don't play a jugg at all, for those wondering. But I do queue a lot of solo ranked and see juggs get crushed like bugs more than any other class (because pts don't even queue ranked).

But if they plan to focus the sin all out, and the sin delays, the enemy team will start on something else. Once you come out of stealth, if they switch to you, your team has had a big head start on focusing your target. Same thing for when you stealth out, heal, and re-engage. Your team should have secured a kill, assuming they continued to focus, while the enemy was split between focusing you when you were up and someone else on your team (and teams often flounder when the focus target disappears). If you play this way, and are consistently annoying to kill, there's a good chance the other team will opt to focus someone else entirely. Juggs can't do any of that.

While true in theory, this is not happening in SR.

While true in theory, this is not happening in SR.

I mean, I don't play a sin. I'm reporting what I see good sin players do. Dps sins have more success in solos than dps juggs. Granted, sins are the 3rd worst class for solos, but they are definitely better than juggs, is really my only point.

I mean, I don't play a sin. I'm reporting what I see good sin players do. Dps sins have more success in solos than dps juggs. Granted, sins are the 3rd worst class for solos, but they are definitely better than juggs, is really my only point.

I played definitely-a-mediocre sin in ranked for a while, and I'd agree with JMA. Maybe it was only because Juggers were always the first target in ranked, but I felt a little more useful than the mediocre juggs on my teams. When stealth-out-and-heal actually worked (i.e. I didn't get caught in combat) that was usually pretty effective. And there were definitely some sins that were way better than me, both in raw damage output and in being able to effectively get away and heal up. Oh, at the time I played, I was also usually without healers.

One thing about ranked though, and being able to open when you want from stealth... I found that harder than theory as well. Ranked players (experienced ones I guess) were way too darn good at guessing where I was going to approach from and knocking me out of stealth before I could start. It was really annoying.

But if they plan to focus the sin all out, and the sin delays, the enemy team will start on something else. Once you come out of stealth, if they switch to you, your team has had a big head start on focusing your target. Same thing for when you stealth out, heal, and re-engage. Your team should have secured a kill, assuming they continued to focus, while the enemy was split between focusing you when you were up and someone else on your team (and teams often flounder when the focus target disappears). If you play this way, and are consistently annoying to kill, there's a good chance the other team will opt to focus someone else entirely. Juggs can't do any of that.

 

 

 

Fury mara is second to merc in my opinion, and there's a decent-sized gap between mara and sniper/operative. I'm not sure how Juggs can be mid-tier when they are the second worst class (at least for solos). Also, I don't play a jugg at all, for those wondering. But I do queue a lot of solo ranked and see juggs get crushed like bugs more than any other class (because pts don't even queue ranked).

Sure I would love to see fury mara nerfed a bit too but snipers in my opinion are pretty decent and can be far better at controlling a mara than vice versa. You can't control a sniper you can only avoid one via LoS and hurt your own dps by doing so. Sniper stun resist is far better than fury stun resist. I suppose fury has a slight edge in being able to hop to them though.

Juggs are actually not entirely terrible, most people just don't use them correctly due to them being a mid tier easy to play class with obvious use cases for their dcds. When faced with higher tier classes they don't do well at all but if they face fellow midtier classes like sins, ops and dare I say pt, they will do pretty good.

Played correctly with correct stats and utilities and usage of abilities you can actually do really well on veng jugg even though this takes significantly more knowledge than average players have... I cant say you do well vs higher tier like merc, sniper and mara. But mara is very squishy once their main dcds are down and you can take at least 1 down with you. Your dots will eat them alive and you have enough burst when you need it (when undying rage is off)

Sniper you can't leap to and can rarely stun and good mercs who still know how to kite instead of face tank are a pain. You have no chance vs them really.

Ops will wreck any class 1v1 as long as they know how to play but fortunately the very best ops seem to have stopped playing. At least on my server. And of course double net on ops by the huge prevalence of FOTM classes in ranked is to be expected and totally screws with ops.

Aside from mercs still being op as ever (for the past 2 or 3 years?) classes are actually somewhat balanced.

Sure I would love to see fury mara nerfed a bit too but snipers in my opinion are pretty decent and can be far better at controlling a mara than vice versa. You can't control a sniper you can only avoid one via LoS and hurt your own dps by doing so. Sniper stun resist is far better than fury stun resist. I suppose fury has a slight edge in being able to hop to them though.

 

Juggs are actually not entirely terrible, most people just don't use them correctly due to them being a mid tier easy to play class with obvious use cases for their dcds. When faced with higher tier classes they don't do well at all but if they face fellow midtier classes like sins, ops and dare I say pt, they will do pretty good.

 

Played correctly with correct stats and utilities and usage of abilities you can actually do really well on veng jugg even though this takes significantly more knowledge than average players have... I cant say you do well vs higher tier like merc, sniper and mara. But mara is very squishy once their main dcds are down and you can take at least 1 down with you. Your dots will eat them alive and you have enough burst when you need it (when undying rage is off)

 

Sniper you can't leap to and can rarely stun and good mercs who still know how to kite instead of face tank are a pain. You have no chance vs them really.

 

Ops will wreck any class 1v1 as long as they know how to play but fortunately the very best ops seem to have stopped playing. At least on my server. And of course double net on ops by the huge prevalence of FOTM classes in ranked is to be expected and totally screws with ops.

 

Aside from mercs still being op as ever (for the past 2 or 3 years?) classes are actually somewhat balanced.

I agree that aside from mercs and pts, classes are somewhat balanced, but I would also like slight buffs to juggs and slight nerfs to maras. Snipers do have a very high ceiling, but they are much harder to play effectively than maras. So is the best sniper better than the best mara? Maybe, but on the whole I still think fury maras outperform snipers the vast majority of the time in solo ranked. There are certainly a lot more of them queueing too.

We may have to agree to disagree on juggs. Out of the many many dps juggs I've faced, only a handful were really able to kite well enough to make a difference. And even then, that only worked because my team wasn't pursuing them properly. That's really the only difference between good and mediocre juggs, because it's not exactly hard to rotate jugg dcds correctly. Every top ranked jugg on the leaderboard plays tank (at least on star forge). I think if juggs got a slight survivability nerf (edit - I clearly meant buff here), they would be pretty balanced.

I mean, I don't play a sin. I'm reporting what I see good sin players do. Dps sins have more success in solos than dps juggs. Granted, sins are the 3rd worst class for solos, but they are definitely better than juggs, is really my only point.

Well that is not what I am seeing and neither is what the top 100 is saying (tank or no), so I guess we are just seeing it a bit different, and that is fine

Well that is not what I am seeing and neither is what the top 100 is saying (tank or no), so I guess we are just seeing it a bit different, and that is fine

As for our experiences, fair enough, though I wager I queue ranked a fair bit more than you. As for the top 100 argument, surely whether they are tanks is completely relevant when we are discussing dps juggs vs dps sins. I looked through the top 100 for star forge, and of all the juggs/guardians there, only 2 primarily queue dps, and both of them are past 70. The rest all queue tank the vast majority of the time (most exclusively). Maybe there are dps juggs on other servers that do really well, but they don't exist on star forge. On the other hand, I don't think any of the sins/shadows in the top 100 on SF queue as tank.

As for our experiences, fair enough, though I wager I queue ranked a fair bit more than you. As for the top 100 argument, surely whether they are tanks is completely relevant when we are discussing dps juggs vs dps sins. I looked through the top 100 for star forge, and of all the juggs/guardians there, only 2 primarily queue dps, and both of them are past 70. The rest all queue tank the vast majority of the time (most exclusively). Maybe there are dps juggs on other servers that do really well, but they don't exist on star forge. On the other hand, I don't think any of the sins/shadows in the top 100 on SF queue as tank.

Yeah, there was one guy who did last season but I dont think he is atm.

Jugg reflect isn't special in any way now, they'd have to buff it to like 10 second duration for it to be "special" again but only for dps juggs.

WTB MARA ability to vanish, that would solve many problems with getting away and getting HP back.

And how do you propose to get your health back. Mara vanish does not take you out of combat

And how do you propose to get your health back. Mara vanish does not take you out of combat

You use it to escape, then you run across the map/hide until you're out of combat and heal to full...