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Struggling to hold aggro


Godzillamax

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level 50 Jugg tank. Current spec is 33 Immortal/8 Vengeance. I'm in mostly Columi/Tionese gear, with 3 oranges (saber, helmet, gloves - though all 3 are modded with high-end purple mods).

 

My unbuffed stats are:

Health = 17,490

Armor Rating = 6,967

Damage Reduction = 45.21%

Defense Chance = 22.70%

Shield Chance = 39.46%

Shield Absorption = 21.76%

 

The problem I am having is maintaining aggro. I have no problems with rage or generating rage, and my gear gives me sufficient health and mitigation to keep me up in most hardmode flashpoints. The problem for me is that the usual guild members I run with (who are mostly in PvP gear) rip aggro from me all the time. Even when they hold off for a few seconds at the start of a fight they still seem to easily surpass me on threat.

 

I'm constantly taunting just to get a mob back to me after it b-lines for one of the DPS. My rotation usually consists of starting with Saber Throw, followed by Force Charge (this combo builds 6 rage for me). Then I follow-up with Backhand then Force Scream (for Sonic Barrier). Next I do Crushing Blow followed by Sundering Assault (this gives me 5 stacks of armor reduction). After that I use Ravage, and when it procs I use Retaliation. I rarely use Assault unless everything else is on a cooldown or I need to build rage (which I usually have plenty of). Then I just rotate those attacks based on cooldowns.

 

I feel like the problem is that since the DPS do far, far more damage than me they are simply producing more TPS than me, thus causing me have to use Taunt constantly. Backhand is my only attack that states it does a "high amount of threat," but it's on a 1 minute cooldown so its effectiveness IMO is greatly diminished.

 

Are any other Jugg tanks experiencing this issue? Maybe something wrong with my rotation, spec, or opening sequence? Gear-wise I don't feel like I'm being outclassed by those I tend to group with, but with how often I have to use my taunt I'm feeling like I'm doing a poor job tanking.

Edited by Godzillamax
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Im a jugg tank around the same gear level, and i have te same issue but it"s mainly with snipers. Their burst is outragous, i put my guard on him and it hlps the issue a lot. But it is a constant battle to hold agro, tanking is not an easy task.
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The only way I have managed to hold aggro in flashpoints and operations is to

 

a) ask everyone to sit on their hands for 5 seconds after the pull so I can get 5 sunders up, then everything is ok.

 

b) weave taunt into my rotation.

 

This appears to work reasonably well unless early in the boss fight someone crits, after the 1st taunt period ends.

 

Caveat: This is for guild runs where everyone is understanding and works with our Jugg tanks.

 

On the other hand in flashpoints with pugs. My only solution was to stop tanking with pugs as dps just either did not understand/listen.

 

I would set CC targets, set kill order: normal mobs 1st. then move to silvers, then dps down the 2 golds I have. I ask for the team not to split dps and to focus fire down the mobs so we work as a team.

 

What happens? DPS routinely attack anything and everything at random via AoE attacks and leaving normal mobs up.

 

Result, I lose aggro, dps end up taking a dirt nap and the rest you can imagine.

 

Personally I quite enjoy the mechanics in this game insofar as we need CC we need to specify targets, set kill orders and work as a team.

 

What I do not enjoy, is the fact, there are far too many people in game who are using their experience from other MMOs and attempting to translate it into this game.

 

In summary:

 

Our threat modifiers, are at best, only just above the dps and healers.

Our rotations, if you can call it that, require us not to make a mistake ie missing a big hitter that comes off CD.

Communication is key, unfortunately people will do their own thing and in PUGs the only analogy I can use to equate with this situation is: Most PUGS are like 'Herding Cats'.

I make no assumption I am a good tank, I consider myself average at best. I simply try my hardest and do my best to work within a team.

Whilst playing a Juggernaut Tank and working with the mechanics of the game, what I see sadly, is a community who have become accustomed to a number of accepted conventions in other MMOs which have not translated into this game, yet persist in their application. to the detriment of the game play.

 

What saddens me, is we may have a situation whereby people will simply stop playing the game largely due to the conventions the game has implemented which have steered away from traditional MMO norms.

 

I am sure there will be people who will find fault with my observations. However these comments are anecdotal and subjective, and before my 1st coffee of the day.

Edited by Oldbuster
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don't add taunt to your rotation, taunt is a threat reset not a threat increase with an added affect that makes the mob attack you for 3 seconds. Only use it when someone else has taken threat. Edited by Cassp
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don't add taunt to your rotation, taunt is a threat reset not a threat increase with an added affect that makes the mob attack you for 3 seconds. Only use it when someone else has taken threat.

 

Well, that is kinda the problem!! I don't use Taunt in my rotation, but I have to use it often when a DPS pulls aggro off me. So in effect by default it is in my rotation.

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2 things i'd suggest you try:

 

1. let the normal mobs be, they go down in less than 2 seconds if dps and focusing them down. in packs with 6 mobs, you can't be bothered to hold aggro on all of them, and should focus only on strong and higher mobs.

 

2. dont use force scream or backhand right after a charge.

 

force scream after a few seconds. healing should be god enough at the start of a fight for you to use other abilities. plus, if you use force scream right after charge, it uses up your revenge counter, which is useless since force scream is already free (hopefully). much better to use revenge for smash. also, you can save your shield for when the healer is busy or casting a long heal or w/e.

 

 

backhand is better used after a taunt. i use this combo to get aggro and keep it right after dps has done their bursts.

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Ever since my last respec ive had far less issues with threat. My current spec is http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101cRG0urrozMZhGMMM.1 and it has served me well. The unstoppable talent has made it easier to establish threat since i cant get cc'd or knocked back etc when i engage a mob and the extra dmg reduction on a pull helps cushion the initial dmg you take for the healer.

 

I open with force scream and then go into a rotation of sundering assault, viscious slash, and retaliation when its off cooldown. Retaliation is a key to keeping threat, make sure to pop it whenever its off cooldown immediately.

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The only way I have managed to hold aggro in flashpoints and operations is to

 

a) ask everyone to sit on their hands for 5 seconds after the pull so I can get 5 sunders up, then everything is ok.

 

b) weave taunt into my rotation.

 

This appears to work reasonably well unless early in the boss fight someone crits, after the 1st taunt period ends.

 

Caveat: This is for guild runs where everyone is understanding and works with our Jugg tanks.

 

On the other hand in flashpoints with pugs. My only solution was to stop tanking with pugs as dps just either did not understand/listen.

 

I would set CC targets, set kill order: normal mobs 1st. then move to silvers, then dps down the 2 golds I have. I ask for the team not to split dps and to focus fire down the mobs so we work as a team.

 

What happens? DPS routinely attack anything and everything at random via AoE attacks and leaving normal mobs up.

 

Result, I lose aggro, dps end up taking a dirt nap and the rest you can imagine.

 

Personally I quite enjoy the mechanics in this game insofar as we need CC we need to specify targets, set kill orders and work as a team.

 

What I do not enjoy, is the fact, there are far too many people in game who are using their experience from other MMOs and attempting to translate it into this game.

 

In summary:

 

Our threat modifiers, are at best, only just above the dps and healers.

Our rotations, if you can call it that, require us not to make a mistake ie missing a big hitter that comes off CD.

Communication is key, unfortunately people will do their own thing and in PUGs the only analogy I can use to equate with this situation is: Most PUGS are like 'Herding Cats'.

I make no assumption I am a good tank, I consider myself average at best. I simply try my hardest and do my best to work within a team.

Whilst playing a Juggernaut Tank and working with the mechanics of the game, what I see sadly, is a community who have become accustomed to a number of accepted conventions in other MMOs which have not translated into this game, yet persist in their application. to the detriment of the game play.

 

What saddens me, is we may have a situation whereby people will simply stop playing the game largely due to the conventions the game has implemented which have steered away from traditional MMO norms.

 

I am sure there will be people who will find fault with my observations. However these comments are anecdotal and subjective, and before my 1st coffee of the day.

 

I feel your pain about the PUGs and everything you've mentioned here is exactly how I work with my guild, I'm the GM and I've actually got a few players new to MMOs, which can be surprising; yet as we crawl, walk and run through FPs now, it's been a nice transition to teach a new player basic game mechanics than berate an elitist MMO player who simply will not work as a team to better the experience for all.

 

I don't run with PUGs and that may set me back a bit but at least when I can control the environment it's that much more rewarding.

 

I won't say that most DPS players are egotistical or simply self centered, but when most are not in a controlled group they tend to go willy nilly all over the place and then it's "your" fault you lost aggro lol

 

Karmageddon

~YWK~

The Twin Spears

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don't add taunt to your rotation, taunt is a threat reset not a threat increase with an added affect that makes the mob attack you for 3 seconds. Only use it when someone else has taken threat.

 

Where did you get this information? Another thread on a sithwarrior.com states something different, it's quoted below.

 

"Also when you taunt you do not "steal" the other persons threat, you only match who ever is on the top of the treat list. These taunts also add a 6 second permenant aggro onto you, so its best to follow up a taunt with some burst damage to solidify your threat."

 

Your statement doesn't make sense anyway since if you use taunt more often and you keep aggro, you won't lose it.

 

Does anyone have a more official word on how taunt actually works?

Edited by nRGon
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More info from that thread...

 

http://sithwarrior.com/forums/Thread-Threat-***-is-going-on?pid=12665#pid12665

 

"Well taunt puts you at the same threat as someone else (who had 130% more then you in order to pull from range), who now has to get another 30% on top on of his previous threat to get the mob off of you. I call that "stealing" threat, but it's really semantics. My point was that when you're at the start of the fight 30% of your threat is maybe 2-3 abilities, but a minute in it's a ton of threat, so threat tends to only be an issue at the start. It also means that it's to your advantage to try to delay using a aoe taunt for trash, so long as you can do it without the dps dying, so that you can get relatively high threat on everything. For example on aoe packs I usually rush in, smash, do sweeping+enrage, then build rage as I start loosing most of the pack, and aoe taunt +ragedump after I've let the dps do some decent aoe damage. It's not perfect but you can hold most of the aoe packs most of the time this way.

 

As for gearing for threat - personally I've just stuck to the default sets up to now (out of lazyness), columni, and now 4/5 rakata, which includes some accuracy (ok) and surge (which is really worthless to a jugg). I'm biochem so if I really feel the need for threat I switch to the +str stim. Since juggs get no +crit chance or damage talents in the standard tank spec, I'd stack power for threat since crit/surge work best when you already have a fair bit of both along with talents that involve crit/crit damage. PTs however get some +crit and +crit damage talents which probably makes crit/surge better for you. Hard to tell how exactly without dps meters.

 

One thing I don't know - does guard reduce threat from range or not? I've always assumed that it only works in short range, which makes it nearly worthless on ranged in most fights."

Edited by nRGon
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Where did you get this information? Another thread on a sithwarrior.com states something different, it's quoted below.

 

"Also when you taunt you do not "steal" the other persons threat, you only match who ever is on the top of the treat list. These taunts also add a 6 second permenant aggro onto you, so its best to follow up a taunt with some burst damage to solidify your threat."

 

Your statement doesn't make sense anyway since if you use taunt more often and you keep aggro, you won't lose it.

 

Does anyone have a more official word on how taunt actually works?

 

His statement does make sense. Taunt will put you at the same threat as the top person on the threat table, however if you are at the top, then it will do nothing.

 

He was saying that there is no point working it into your rotation because most of the time you are at the top of the table, therefore it does nothing and is wasted.

 

Only taunt when someone rips something off you.

Edited by Kallti
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You don't exactly know if you're at the top of the table because there's no real way to tell. A person has to be at 130% more threat than you to pull it off so they could have generated more threat than you but not enough to pull aggro. My point is, it MAY not be wasted. I'm not saying use it on cool down but maybe use the single target taunt a couple times, preemptively, on a long fight. Edited by nRGon
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My Merc still pulls aggro sometimes when my Juggernaut friend is tanking, but it's rare.

 

With other tanks I can guarantee that I aggro the boss even with aggro reguction at some point of the fight. It's especially bad with Assassins and most rare with Powertechs.

 

But in a Raid setting enrage timers are still of concern so just taunt as soon as you lose the mob, it's your job to keep the mob on you, not to beat the dps in threat.

 

There is nothing bad about not being able to keep up and taunting back as long as you do it.

And Juggernauts imho are the best boss tanks thanks to their ridiculous cooldowns - especially when they have biochem to add another +15% HP increase.

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I find myself having no issues trying to hold threat from my party. I just tag a few with sundering assault and then just mainly focus on the strong or elite NPC. If I see weak NPC's not focusing fire on me I just either taunt or AOE taunt to get them back on my and tag them again. You have to keep yourself on your toes and look around to see whats going on and move accordingly.

 

Here is my current build: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101frG0ubrkuoZhGb.1

 

Stats if I remember correctly are:

 

Defense Rating: 6920

 

Defense Chance: 22%

 

Damage Reduction: 45%

 

Shield Rating: 39%

 

Shield Absorb: 36%

 

Accuracy helps generate threat alot for if your over 100% you're lowering the NPC's defense. But it only really needs to be at 96% minimum. Sundering Assault and Crushing Blow are your main attacks for threat generation so using those as much as possible helps I've noticed as well.

 

Other than that your party dps should be killing the weak NPC's first before they help you on the strong or elite ones. They shouldn't be pulling threat off you if they are killing what needs to be killed correctly.

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Ever since my last respec ive had far less issues with threat. My current spec is http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101cRG0urrozMZhGMMM.1 and it has served me well. The unstoppable talent has made it easier to establish threat since i cant get cc'd or knocked back etc when i engage a mob and the extra dmg reduction on a pull helps cushion the initial dmg you take for the healer.

 

I open with force scream and then go into a rotation of sundering assault, viscious slash, and retaliation when its off cooldown. Retaliation is a key to keeping threat, make sure to pop it whenever its off cooldown immediately.

 

 

TY for the info - question for you. I've recently hit 50... just in the process of working on my gear (dailies etc... will be tanking this evening if all goes well)

 

I love the idea of your build... in principal I'm liking the look, and I've considered it a few times BUT.. couple of things....

  • what do you think of losing our top-tier ability? (does it make much difference in threat gen?)
  • what is your rage-gen like? Do you struggle at all with having enough rage?

 

Hoping the feedback is good... I'd like to tweak your spec just a litle to add in more damage on backhand and sweeping strike etc.... but I'll take your advice on this one.

 

Ultimately I want to maximise my threat potential (ideally good on AOE too... or as good as I can be)

 

Cheers

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I found that build to be a little intriguing as well and might try it out. Please post back on here to see how it goes for you.

 

Yeh me too... really liked the idea. HATE being knocked back or stunned when you charge in.... thats a quick way for your agro to go all over the place before you've even started your rotation. ..so... unstoppable would be awesome.

 

I'm just a bit nervous about

  • rage generation
  • losing the damage bonus to backhand and sweeping strike
  • missing out on the top tier ability

 

If I get time tonight to re-spec and give it a go...I'll do so and feed back on here.

 

If anyone is using this spec (or a variation) - please let us know your experiences... v curious :)

 

Cheers

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This is the build I'm currently using: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101cMGcdrrkuRZhG.1

 

Since my original post, I've upgraded some gear to mostly Columi/Tionese. Only orange item I have left is my saber, which is modded with highest epic mods I could get my hands on.

 

Unbuffed stats are now:

18,360 health

7,271 Armor Rating

46.33% Damage Reduction

22.66% Defense Chance

38.13% Shield Chance

27.17% Shield Absorption

98.88% Accuracy

 

My lesser geared guildmates are still ripping aggro from me. I resorted to asking them to hold off on pulls for 3-5 seconds. Typically I start with Saber Throw followed by Force Charge. Then Smash (for both single and muti-target packs unless using it would break CC) then Force Scream (for Sonic Barrier). After that I do one Crushing Blow and one Sundering Assault to get up 5 stacks of armor debuff. Next I usually do backhand. Normally before I can get this opening rotation off, I have to taunt because one of the DPS has pulled aggro.

 

The more I play my Jugg, the more I believe our threat modifiers need a boost. When we run EV the difference between how things go with our Powertech tank (who is about equally geared as me) versus me is night and day. The raid goes much, much smoother with the powertech tank. If backhand is going to remain our ONLY high threat attack, IMO it needs a much lower cooldown, like 20 seconds (versus its current 1 min), to help us hold aggro better. That, or make Crushing Blow a "high threat" attack as well.

Edited by Godzillamax
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From reading your post you're having issues holding threat on bosses, which is counter to my experience. You of course should work to maximize your DPS and non-taunt threat, but you should also being using your taunts as needed. If you're doing that and still having issues I have to ask who is pulling aggro from you, DSP (melee or ranged?) or healing? Do you have another tanking class that is DPS specced but still using the high threat stance/power?
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From reading your post you're having issues holding threat on bosses, which is counter to my experience. You of course should work to maximize your DPS and non-taunt threat, but you should also being using your taunts as needed. If you're doing that and still having issues I have to ask who is pulling aggro from you, DSP (melee or ranged?) or healing? Do you have another tanking class that is DPS specced but still using the high threat stance/power?

 

I lose aggro on trash, but that isn't an issue since its usually just the regular mobs that I'm ignoring and the DPS is burning down. On boss fights I'm losing aggro to DPS, both ranged and melee. Usually it's within the first 20 seconds of the fight that it happens. After that, I can usually maintain aggro.

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That can happen (to any tank) if your DPS bursts their damage ASAP. If you have a melee dps player then put guard on him, since he gets the highest threat modifier (1.3 versus 1.1 for ranged DPS). Also, don't taunt as soon as you engage wait until your DPS has opened up some and if they aren't getting trashed you can actually wait till one steals aggro. The mistakes I made at the start were:

 

1) Always putting guard on healers, who are often out of the 15m range

2) Taunting after leaping in, which wastes the threat from stealing from DPS if you wait a few seconds

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imo you should drop thrown gauntlet from you spec and pick up dreadnaught and it should help you threat alot also be sure to throw your choke and push whenever possible and start with sundering assault instead of crushing blow use crushing blow after that way youve frontloaded your rage and have alil extra for whatever you choose be it vicious slash or another crushingblow and after the initial charge make sure scream is used pretty much on cd and smash http://www.sithwarrior.com has a nice guide on maximizing threat and survival
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