Hey folks,

 

You may have been participating in the other story thread in GD which got a little derailed based on the discussion of feedback, criticism, and the SWTOR team (well everyone, but especially the SWTOR team). If you want to continue that discussion, please do so in this thread. This is a topic that we as a team are very interested in from your perspective, so keep it coming.

 

Standard reminder, please keep it civil! I know we are talking about criticism and feedback and those topics can get heated. Just please remain respectful.

 

-eric

 

Could we perhaps get your or Keith's thoughts and feelings on the topic to perhaps kick things off ... as I posted in my last post in the old thread ...

 

I would be interested in your thoughts on forum decorum with examples as I often myself find it hard to find that line between vehement arguing and possibly going a little bit too far into the realms of rule breaking.

 

Often it's like "well they are clearly making personal remarks so I will too" yet one person just ends up over line (not talking outright abuse here) and gets sanctioned or has posts removed whilst the other other does not. Where is this line? Ideally many of the posts that outright seem to attack Charles and yourself in this thread as opposed to the content itself should be deleted should they not? Warnings issued? I get you have painted yourself into a corner by actually responding now and it would seem heavily bias to do so but ... rules are rules are they not?

 

I guess the last part isn't pertinent as much now as new thread and all but it would still be nice to know why perhaps those posts weren't jumped on?

What made them any less personal and not warranting moderation vs perhaps posts I've seen/experienced moderation on in the past (again not talking blatant rule infractions , I accept and own those but some post deletions imo are iffy when others get to stay and I'm sure Ive had some that stay and others have theirs removed that are equally iffy)? What is the line?

I'm gonna skip the topic of the originating thread for the moment to say that I appreciate the attempts by the team to communicate and try to reconcile desire with what can be reasonably done within time constraints. I may not always agree with what is said, but I hope that you will continue to do so, and that you have access to excellent health care because high blood pressure is no joke... ok, maybe a little joke.

 

I know tempers can flare and tension is already high, BUT overall I believe we all want the game to succeed and be the best it can be. That said, I hope that those given to lashing out at "opponents", regardless of what side of any argument they are on, will try to hold off on that for the sake of the game.

 

How you say things can be more damaging to your point than what you say. Do it for the good of the game, contribute thoughts in a way that makes it easier for people to focus more on the concept and less on defending themselves. By the same token, don't worry. If you are making a valid point, you don't have to wage war to defend yourself. A valid point can stand on it's own.

 

Hopefully going forward everyone will be able to contribute to the upbuilding of the game regardless of what they feel is more important to the game.

 

That said, I'll stop speaking in general and let the thread continue normally.

If we are going to start fresh, and in the spirit of what Keith posted in the original story thread, might I suggest the community do is come together and draft a rules of etiquette for the forums, above and beyond what the terms of service state.

 

Even though not everyone will agree, if we can come to enough of a consensus then perhaps we can start to police ourselves, with the help of the Forum moderators.

 

If anyone wants to attempt this I'll throw in my rules first and people can follow up with their own and we can hash them out and discuss them.

 

1) Criticism of an idea or a concept is not the same as a personal attack, nor is a personal attack a valid criticism.

 

2) Tone matters when posting. Posting in a derogatory manner even when free of typical banned forum words, should be reported to the moderators if the derogatory post is made in an effort to personally demean someone else.

 

3) Putting someone down or regarding them as inferior is not a valid way to win an argument and instead contributes to a toxic Forum atmosphere.

 

4) Pointed attacks, i.e. phrases beginning with the words "You Are" should be shouted down and disregarded as a personal attack on a person. If our form is to be an exchange of ideas then all ideas should be welcome, and all ideas should be subject to criticism. But at no point should the person doing either be subjected to he pointed attack. In debate terms these are often referred to as a straw man attacks or ad hominem.

 

2) Tone matters when posting. Posting in a derogatory manner even when free of typical banned forum words, should be reported to the moderators if the derogatory post is made in an effort to personally demean someone else.

 

 

You can not discern tone from text. Tone is applied by the reader. if you're in a pissy mood or just a plain ol drama queen you'll apply whatever tone you want and most likely take the comments out of context.

If we are going to start fresh, and in the spirit of what Keith posted in the original story thread, might I suggest the community do is come together and draft a rules of etiquette for the forums, above and beyond what the terms of service state.

 

Even though not everyone will agree, if we can come to enough of a consensus then perhaps we can start to police ourselves, with the help of the Forum moderators.

 

If anyone wants to attempt this I'll throw in my rules first and people can follow up with their own and we can hash them out and discuss them.

 

1) Criticism of an idea or a concept is not the same as a personal attack, nor is a personal attack a valid criticism.

 

2) Tone matters when posting. Posting in a derogatory manner even when free of typical banned forum words, should be reported to the moderators if the derogatory post is made in an effort to personally demean someone else.

 

3) Putting someone down or regarding them as inferior is not a valid way to win an argument and instead contributes to a toxic Forum atmosphere.

 

4) Pointed attacks, i.e. phrases beginning with the words "You Are" should be shouted down and disregarded as a personal attack on a person. If our form is to be an exchange of ideas then all ideas should be welcome, and all ideas should be subject to criticism. But at no point should the person doing either be subjected to he pointed attack. In debate terms these are often referred to as a straw man attacks or ad hominem.

 

Can I also add "If you disagree with someone, don't call them names." But, I guess that goes with #3 or #4.

 

Joke: Actually, I think we should just talk like HK. That way we can convey our tone without misinterpretation!

 

Musing: Although that might get frustrating after a while.

My 2 cents. I will say what i have said in original thread. Focus on major story this time. Do it fully, greatly, and make it epic. Leave companions as a side stuff this time.

If we are going to start fresh, and in the spirit of what Keith posted in the original story thread, might I suggest the community do is come together and draft a rules of etiquette for the forums, above and beyond what the terms of service state.

 

Even though not everyone will agree, if we can come to enough of a consensus then perhaps we can start to police ourselves, with the help of the Forum moderators.

 

No, I feel we've got more than enough rules in place to ensure conversations, discussions and arguments flow fine. There is a report button for anything deemed to breach rules, we don't need more rules and restrictions on free speech.

My 2 cents. I will say what i have said in original thread. Focus on major story this time. Do it fully, greatly, and make it epic. Leave companions as a side stuff this time.

 

I both agree and disagree with this, I want a major story. But I always want to see those companions we're missing come back in a meaningful way (IE I want to see what Risha has to say to my Smuggler for romancing Lana). BWA could bring back non romanceable companions*** through Alliance Alerts, but players are going to want to see the romanceable companions return in the "normal" story, and the dev's know that.

 

***Except Khem Val. For Khem's situation, maybe a return in the normal story might be good.

Edited July 2, 2017 by LtGeneralGezlin

You can not discern tone from text. Tone is applied by the reader. if you're in a pissy mood or just a plain ol drama queen you'll apply whatever tone you want and most likely take the comments out of context.

 

I COMPLETELY AGREE! or ... I completely agree? or I completely agree

 

ARG, what do I mean?!

4) Pointed attacks, i.e. phrases beginning with the words "You Are" should be shouted down and disregarded as a personal attack on a person. If our form is to be an exchange of ideas then all ideas should be welcome, and all ideas should be subject to criticism. But at no point should the person doing either be subjected to he pointed attack. In debate terms these are often referred to as a straw man attacks or ad hominem.

 

"You are" taking this too far. "You are" taking this personally. Now, are those critiques or are they personal attacks or are they just insights from a third party? I say insights. if you say personal attacks that's on you. Which also leads me back to discerning tone in text. If you read into it what's not there, that too is on you. That's you hearing what you want to hear.

 

I agree with the rest, but sorry, I can't accept your rules.

Edited July 2, 2017 by kodrac

Can I also add "If you disagree with someone, don't call them names." But, I guess that goes with #3 or #4.

 

Joke: Actually, I think we should just talk like HK. That way we can convey our tone without misinterpretation!

 

Musing: Although that might get frustrating after a while.

 

That's ideally already against forum rules. If encounter this then report. If nothing is done then maybe question if it really was name calling or personal attacks.

 

And yes they most certainly do police forums, fairly well too though my first post questions where the line is at times.

I know from personal experience posts get deleted and worse (both posts I've made and posts I've reported).

I actually disagree with a post before mine.

 

I think it's better to focus on smaller scale storylines. I honestly think Charles Boyd's (it's my assumption though since Charles was the lead writer from 3.0 to 4.0) biggest strength is in creating interesting characters.Lana Beniko is a very solid character and I really liked Jakarro and the droid too. Theron is a bit more uptight but his romance and the romance with Lana in Forged Alliances and SOR was really well done in my opinion. Kai Zykken was actually funny and I liked Senya too.

And that's why I would suggest going forward with more character-driven filler plots.

I think it's time to take a break from the big plotlines like KOTFE and concentrate on more smaller-scaled plots.

 

For a example I really liked Rishi but I thought it would have been better to have a planet storyline focusing on the conflict of the native Rishi with the pirates. (perhaps in the end choosing which group the republic/empire will support.) Then we get perhaps a Rishi or pirate companion (depending who we choose) and 3-4 alliance-style conversations when raising their influence. Over.

 

Maybe more smaller plotlines that aren't important to the main plot would I think bring a breath of fresh air.

Edited July 2, 2017 by menofhorror

I both agree and disagree with this, I want a major story. But I always want to see those companions we're missing come back in a meaningful way (IE I want to see what Risha has to say to my Smuggler for romancing Lana). BWA could bring back non romanceable companions*** through Alliance Alerts, but players are going to want to see the romanceable companions return in the "normal" story, and the dev's know that.

 

***Except Khem Val. For Khem's salutation, maybe a return in the normal story might be good.

 

Wrong thread folks ... you want this one for story discussion:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9347976

No, I feel we've got more than enough rules in place to ensure conversations, discussions and arguments flow fine. There is a report button for anything deemed to breach rules, we don't need more rules and restrictions on free speech.

 

Agreed. The silent third-party company moderators that don't play the game have it covered. Yes that was a dig, but I do agree, we don't need more rules. These rules would only protect those loudest.

Edited July 2, 2017 by kodrac

As to understand current events one has to dig into the past.

 

We all know SW fans are passionate nerds. Some of them even have a better knowledge of SW than Gorge himself. As such comes the highest expectations.

 

SWTOR is, sadly, a game rigged with quite a few boulders.

To mention some of them: the initial team(s) had a know better attitude. The communication has been quite abysmal, too often leaving the players in the void till last minute. The game lacked a proper direction and suffered many poor decisions. Many times the decisions or communications split the player base in two very opposed and sometimes unfriendly exchanges. Lately the lack of content and aging engine is starting to show.

 

Many of us do know it's hard to be a dev and be criticized, even with constructive feedback. Still players kept hope for the game to become better but I'm afraid they also are loosing their patience.

When they have been saying for years the issues or dissatisfaction in regards of the game, it is unwelcome to feel, somehow dismissed. Again.

 

As a matter of fact SW fans don't have any alternative as MMO game. (Please don't mention SWG-EMU). So in a sense some are stuck with the current product. It does not mean they don't like it. Only they don't really have an alternative and certainly they'd love the game to become truly better.

 

What I'd like to highlight too is when, on the forums, you mention the forums represent only a (small) proportion of the population and get privileged feedback from streamers, you are alienating those fans. It feels feedback is weighted not against quality but likes on facebook, tweeter or else.

 

Finally while we do appreciate the feedback that greatly improved since your taking of the captain seat, Keith, guess it's time for true 2 way communication.

 

I'll take this post as example:

 

Hey folks,

 

For this week’s discussion topic, let’s talk about Bolster! This has been a hot-button item since the launch of 5.0 due to various changes which have been made. Here is a bit of a history on what we have done so far:

When we launched Eternal Throne Bolster increased everyone’s item rating up to 250 (which was 8 higher than the highest possible gear rating of 242 at the time). This meant that gear was irrelevant in PvP as Bolster made an equal playing field. However, it is our design intent that players in all gameplay have some form of gear progression and so in Game Update 5.1 we lowered the effect of Bolster in PvP to 232. To compensate for the launch of Tier 4 gear we increased Bolsters effect in PvP to item rating 238.

 

There have been numerous feedback threads on both sides of the fence on this topic, but it seems the larger consensus is that players would like to see a higher bolster rating in PvP to lower the overall gear gap. With that in mind we want to present 3 possible options and see what you think:

1. Bolster is equal to item rating 238. - This is how it works today, this effectively puts you slightly above Tier 2 gear.
   
2. Bolster is equal to item rating 240. – This would place Bolster equal to the start of Tier 3 gear. There would now be an 8 rating difference between Bolster and the highest tier of gear (248). For reference this is identical to the gap that existed for Bolster prior to 5.0.
   
3. Bolster is equal to item rating 242. – This would place Bolster at the top end of Tier 3 gear, meaning only Tier 4 gear is above it.
   

 

Let us know what you think? Do you like Bolster where it is? Do you want to see it go up?

 

-eric

If you read the feedback you'll notice most players don't like any of the solutions. In a sense you're telling them they're going to have a choice of 3 slightly different cakes as dessert when they want pie instead.

 

So whatever the choice among those 3 you are leaving them with a bitter taste in the mouth. They might have the feeling either suck it up or leave.

 

I'll take another example (clicky):

Addons only open up the game to more hacks. No thank you !!!.

Agreed, plus the amount of coordination it would take with any 3rd party developers could be horrifying. And, if they coded it wrong, it breaks the game. I think we do well enough on our own there. But, definitely interested with improving the UI to make it easier for us healers...I mean for everyone.

Some of us mentioned other AAA games like WoW, Rift, Elder Scrolls Online do have addons and yet it's ok.

 

Still no more answer from BioWare was made on the subject. Again bitter pill.

 

As such I would suggest a 2 way communication and well less a fire and forget methodology.

 

Respectfully,

D

Edited July 2, 2017 by Deewe

Charles, thank you for the interesting and thoughtful post on Vitiate. I enjoyed KotFE and KotET, and especially the Vaylin arc of the story. One of my favorite things about Star Wars is that it serves as great fuel for the imagination. A single character, a random scene, a single line - any one of these things served as the starting point for my own childhood explorations of that galaxy far, far away, and KotFE and KotET certainly fit that mold. Sometimes it is the stories hinted at but not quite told that prove the most fulfilling. Thanks for sharing these stories with us, and here's to many more to come.

Not much point in this thread. If we start criticising swtor team, we will all get insta banned and thread will be lost in the abyss of darkness..

 

did that once, got infraction. thx bw.

 

On topic:

Since its a thread for criticism of SWTOR team, that guy didnt appear on forums since 2013. Seems sad.

Hi Keith,

 

If I may I'd invite you to read the following article from Raph Koster (for those unaware, lead designer on SWG) on getting criticism.

 

Also in regards of SWTOR current situation you might find interesting to delve into that one: Did Star Wars Galaxies Fail? Especially the part "The error of good intentions"

Edited July 2, 2017 by Deewe

Hi Keith,

 

If I may I'd invite you to read the following article from Raph Koster (for those unaware, lead designer on SWG) on getting criticism.

 

Also in regards of SWTOR current situation you might find interesting to delve into that one: Did Star Wars Galaxies Fail? Especially the part "The error of good intentions"

 

Raph Koster. Wow, that's a name I haven't heard in a while, and frankly, he really pissed me off bad with SWG - it was a case of listening TOO much to the community post launch, and allowing the development team to be instrument of destruction to every single profession, simply because players of another profession demanded it to be nerfed.

 

That said, looks like he's finally learned some valuable lessons.

Not much point in this thread. If we start criticising swtor team, we will all get insta banned and thread will be lost in the abyss of darkness..

 

did that once, got infraction. thx bw.

 

On topic:

Since its a thread for criticism of SWTOR team, that guy didnt appear on forums since 2013. Seems sad.

 

 

They may be a little too "warning-happy" when receiving strong criticism from frustrated players. I don't think they've solved how to handle that yet.

Not much point in this thread. If we start criticising swtor team, we will all get insta banned and thread will be lost in the abyss of darkness..

 

did that once, got infraction. thx bw.

 

On topic:

Since its a thread for criticism of SWTOR team, that guy didnt appear on forums since 2013. Seems sad.

 

It's not a thread to criticize BWA at all. It's a thread to discuss our feed/criticism is given on the forums - so I expect Keith to post if he's going to support his other post of ...

 

How about we start up a new thread about forum decorum (yah, I know, but it rhymed) where I'll be happy to participate.

 

so we can get Keith's thoughts on it.

 

If you have specific criticism to post perhaps make that topic separately?

Hi Keith,

 

If I may I'd invite you to read the following article from Raph Koster (for those unaware, lead designer on SWG) on getting criticism.

 

Also in regards of SWTOR current situation you might find interesting to delve into that one: Did Star Wars Galaxies Fail? Especially the part "The error of good intentions"

 

I have to interrupt this thread for a second.

 

Thank you so much for posting these articles. I found the article "Did Star Wars Galaxies Fail?" to be particularly insightful.

 

"Among the pieces of institutional knowledge lost was how to run the right sorts of metrics queries. Choices like the change to the auction house (which caused one of the single largest single-week drops of subs in SWG’s history) were the result of asking the wrong question: “how many Master Merchants are there?” rather than “how many people run a shop?” There was an almost identical situation with Creature Handlers (how many Masters, versus how many had a pet). Reducing the group size helped combat balance but devastated Entertainers. And so on.

 

Something like the group XP change was almost certainly an attempt to fix the extreme overpower of players (I mean, sum this to buffs and the rest of the combat problems, and it’s a recipe for running out of content really fast, which was the top reason for exit…). But it went to test, was loudly objected to by players, then was propped live with very little notice, then reverted too late, after it had already caused an uproar. This single event doubled the churn rate of the game, and even after it was all put back, it stayed 50% higher than it had been ever after. In fact, it was worse, in percentage terms, than the NGE was."

 

See, now I think I understand.

 

It's so easy, if you are not asking the right questions, to conclude that people leave your MMO once their characters are geared. So, put in a gear grind, and they'll stay. But that is not what happens.

 

When people's characters are geared, they play an alt.

 

The shorter the pathway to gear at max level in SWTOR, the more people stay. Why? Because in SWTOR, the 1-50 content is more compelling than the 50+ content. So the more that people are playing alts, the more likely they are to keep subscribing and spending money in the cartel market. If you want to minimize churn and maximize income, you should make it as easy as possible to get gear at max level, so that people will spend less time at max level and more time on alts.

 

The longer the pathway to gear at max level in SWTOR, the more quickly people unsubscribe or at least stop spending money in the cartel market. That gear grind makes them less likely to play alts.

 

But you won't catch that if you are asking the wrong questions.

 

It's too late now. The gear grind has caused the harm it has caused, but it is interesting for me, personally, to get some insight into how they made such a bad decision in the first place.

Dear all

 

First of all take my compliments for making everything what it is today. Swtor is on its way to many fine tuning and developments.

 

Just 2 issues i require your help. Server merge due to lack of group ups or pugs. Isn't it time to rearrange server categorizations as undeniably Progenitor's fleet population is on decline.

 

Secondly, class balancing... the most delicate of delicate. hehe. I read an explaination from devs' how they actually have a target dps in mind and how they raise and drop the buffs. Well at least that's what i understood. A class to me would be survivability or skills useful to ignore debuffs or dmg. Look at how many ultilities of sage compared to say a commando ( i play both classes) its absurb tbh. You kind folks cannot be serious that the sage most skills are defensive just to stay alive. And tons of mando skills are alacrity 15%? dmg xx%? i play TK sage and i couldnt do chapter 10 fireband at veteran level with a heal comp with 246/248 gears. i took one shot from the dual bosses in breaktown, zakuul. I was zapped to 85 to 90% out. meaning 10% left.

 

I have studied the changes made over time to sages. The "leaving us at version 4" has made the sage unbearable and terrible experience.

 

Dont take my word for it. create a sage and if it's possible for u to get past that zakuul fireband chapter. Inspire me and let me know.

 

With all said, please look into the 2 items i so asked of you guys to address and perharps look more into overall health of class balancing.

Hi Keith,

 

If I may I'd invite you to read the following article from Raph Koster (for those unaware, lead designer on SWG) on getting criticism.

 

Also in regards of SWTOR current situation you might find interesting to delve into that one: Did Star Wars Galaxies Fail? Especially the part "The error of good intentions"

 

That link to Koster's article should be required reading.