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The Expertise stat has to go...

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
The Expertise stat has to go...

DarylMusashi's Avatar


DarylMusashi
01.27.2012 , 04:47 AM | #1241
Quote: Originally Posted by dannythefool View Post
Well, if you remove it then one of two things is going to happen

Either 1) PVE gear will beat everything PVP players have, so players who don't like the PVE endgame will be forced to still go through it to gear up for PVP,
Or 2) PVP gear will beat PVE gear in PVE, annoying the PVE players who suddenly see PVP players being more sought after for their ops than longtime PVE players.
OR... you can just bolster everyone to a set standard regardless of gear or levels. Now there is no advantage gained by the raiders and their gear. Its the easiest fix, and most elegant solution. The most people will have fun this way, and keep their subs going.

It amazes me that yet another company like BW would make this same mistake when there was already ample evidence of gear chase based PvP failing hard core in other MMOs. Didn't anyone at BW do any research? Maybe they will listen to the overwhelming majority in the ToR community who are stating quite loudly that gear chase PvP is bad for the game, not fun for the players, and leads to non participation, and even canceled accounts.

Exoteis's Avatar


Exoteis
01.27.2012 , 05:08 AM | #1242
Quote: Originally Posted by Husanak View Post
There was a time when every one of us was not a PVP player... admit it none of us came to PvP first.
What you say is disgusting. It seems you think everyone started MMOs with WoW, just like you. And never done PvP before.

This is madness.

Many PvP players are actually coming from old school MMOs where PvP was the main topic.

Shame on you for daring to say such bad things.

Almghty_gir's Avatar


Almghty_gir
01.27.2012 , 05:13 AM | #1243
well, to be fair... anyone who came to SWTOR expecting it to be the next big pvp game was a bit silly.

however, many proper oldschool pvpers (my self included) came here just because it's something new. it's okay for us to be disappointed with the current stat of the game, however we shouldn't go out with pitchforks just yet.

there are many things they could do to fix pvp in the game, removal of expertise is just one of them, although by most counts it's probably the most important one.

the game has a long ways to go... and if i'm honest, i doubt it'll ever get there because after all, PVP is not the games primary concern, it never was, it never will be. it was built around PVE, and because of that it will always have PVP limitations.

sad but true. the days of real pvp MMO's is gone, and that's largely because it was a niche within a niche, and when everyone wants to win, nobody likes to lose, and if they keep losing because the pvp is purely skill based (ultima/daoc etc.) that's a bigger hit to their ego than "i lost because i'm undergeared... so let's grind some more gear!".
Bruglir Fellblade - Dark Jedi.
Guild leader - Vulgar Display of Power
Tomb of Freedon Nadd

endikux's Avatar


endikux
02.02.2012 , 11:57 AM | #1244
The argument of who starts a game with PVP in mind versus PVE is completely inconsequential and sidelines the true issue.

New people getting into the game are deterred from PVP and therefor deterred from playing in general.
That is the real issue.

Even as young as SWTOR is, there is already a Strong PVPer Population which is growing rapidly. This strong population (SPP) is naturally made of the most competitive people. They buy the game early, the play intensely early, they hit 50 within days, they gather valor at crazy amounts, they even take advantage of "bugs" or the lack of fixes like the pre-50-bracket days and Ilum spawn camping days. I'm not impugning their motives or tactics, I'm saying they exist.

New people who are more casual or for whatever reason more late to the game, will have a steep uphill climb to enter the PVP portion of the game. They have to face those who are not only far more experienced and better players, but also outfitted with stats that are incredibly superior. Expertise reduces damage taken, improves damage given and increases heals received. All of this on ONE stat? A stat which can only be received through an immense amount of PVP played.. against a community composed of those who already have the stat in abundance?

This is like saying that everyone who hits driving age this year can get a license but next year only those who have an existing license can apply for one? Huh-what?!?

BioWare take heed. For simply marketing reasons you are going to restrict your customer base instead of increase it. There is a huge untapped market of both competitive and casual players out there who would enjoy SWTOR. Both groups are dissuaded by the expertise system.

Starbuckx's Avatar


Starbuckx
02.02.2012 , 12:01 PM | #1245
The question is will more people play a game that has gear in it or that doesn't have gear in it?

The majority should be how most mainstream games are designed and only niche games for the minority of players.

I alway slook for games with no gear and no levels.

Fierystrike's Avatar


Fierystrike
02.02.2012 , 12:05 PM | #1246
Quote: Originally Posted by Almghty_gir View Post
using the tool i made here:
http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=240685

to see the difference in damage between two people, where one has expertise and the other doesn't, input the same offensive stats on both set one and two, then input an expertise amount (500 is a good average) into the offensive stats of set one, and the defensive stats of set two.

in my example, both have:
1200 primary stat (strength/aim/willpower/cunning)
600 force/tech
600 power
250 crit rating
100 surge rating
100 accuracy
306-459 weapon damage

both hitting the same defence values:
4000 armour

the guy with expertise hits for 1254 damage per second
the guy without expertise hits for 1022 damage per second

that's per second, not per ability use, so the damage on individual abilities is actually inflated beyond that value. it also means that the actual difference in damage is 464 per second, so the guy without expertise is going to be burned down a lot quicker.

here's the thing though, the majority of fresh 50's won't have anywhere near equal stats to the guy with 500 expertise, so the difference in damage per second is likely to be a lot higher.

FYI, i'm running almost 600 expertise, and it's VERY obvious to me when i'm hitting someone who has none. it's like a hot knife through butter... and i'm tank spec lol.

Please delete your post because it assumes equal stats on pvp and pve gear and this is incorrect.

Fierystrike's Avatar


Fierystrike
02.02.2012 , 12:19 PM | #1247
Quote: Originally Posted by endikux View Post
The argument of who starts a game with PVP in mind versus PVE is completely inconsequential and sidelines the true issue.

New people getting into the game are deterred from PVP and therefor deterred from playing in general.
That is the real issue.

Even as young as SWTOR is, there is already a Strong PVPer Population which is growing rapidly. This strong population (SPP) is naturally made of the most competitive people. They buy the game early, the play intensely early, they hit 50 within days, they gather valor at crazy amounts, they even take advantage of "bugs" or the lack of fixes like the pre-50-bracket days and Ilum spawn camping days. I'm not impugning their motives or tactics, I'm saying they exist.

New people who are more casual or for whatever reason more late to the game, will have a steep uphill climb to enter the PVP portion of the game. They have to face those who are not only far more experienced and better players, but also outfitted with stats that are incredibly superior. Expertise reduces damage taken, improves damage given and increases heals received. All of this on ONE stat? A stat which can only be received through an immense amount of PVP played.. against a community composed of those who already have the stat in abundance?

This is like saying that everyone who hits driving age this year can get a license but next year only those who have an existing license can apply for one? Huh-what?!?

BioWare take heed. For simply marketing reasons you are going to restrict your customer base instead of increase it. There is a huge untapped market of both competitive and casual players out there who would enjoy SWTOR. Both groups are dissuaded by the expertise system.
Wrong, new people to this game are discouraged from doing anything because they can't directly join their friends without first gearig up(according to you).

People can be carried through lower difficulty with friends or guilders and can be carried in pvp by those same people by getting wins.

Anyone who says expertise deteres people from joining pvp please stop postin because your points are flawed and irrelevant. You clutter this forum with useless posts and bring nothing to the pvp discussion. Expertise is fine a fresh 50 cant do hard modes just like said person can't compete against top geared pvpers but you will eventually get the gear even by losing and they can use pve gear just like the pvers do to get started to help you do better.

Once the next tier is out that will decide if pvp gear needs to be easier to get because everyone will be working on the next teir of gear that makes the old starting point to far behind. But if they don't add new pve gear that helps people skip a step then pvp hell week will always exist and everyone will have to go through it just to pve

Tamanous's Avatar


Tamanous
02.02.2012 , 12:53 PM | #1248
I already posted my opinions on this but look at the game a year from now:

New players hit 50, they join pvp against tier 4 or 5 geared pvp players ... imagine the carnage.

There would need to be a new pvp tier: 8 new level 50 players join a raid vs 1 pvp geared player. Titanic Raid boss encounter ensues as the is exactly what would be needed to compete against that tier of player.

This is NOT pvp. Pvp is an e-sport. Pvp does not need to hyper inflate to allow progression like pve. Bioware needs to start thinking outside the box ... for once ... and not further clone failed systems.

Pvp needs to be about equality so skill can shine. Competitive games/battles is the only incentive needed behind sports and pvp competition. Rewards do not need to be power gains or minimal at best. People will still pvp! More so than blocking out huge segments of the population as is shaping up now.

My suggestions:

1. Anyone engaged in pvp automatically is scaled to a standard at level 50 based on their chosen stats through gear. This would be an easy cap and calculated upon engaging with players.

2. The benefit to pvp gear and pve gear are optional looks and perhaps the SLIGHTEST edge to scaling for pvp in limited stats. This rewards those so choosing to grind through pvp but minimal impact on a one on one basis. Set benefits would favour pvp style combat where possible.

3. Real rewards granted though titles, cosmetics, vendors and unique pve perks like own lounge, diff ships etc etc that are cool but have no real impact to pvp performance.

There are TONS of things Bioware can do to ensure pvp is fun, accessible, competitive yet rewarding to the hardcore.

endikux's Avatar


endikux
02.02.2012 , 09:54 PM | #1249
Quote: Originally Posted by Tamanous View Post
This is NOT pvp. Pvp is an e-sport. Pvp does not need to hyper inflate to allow progression like pve. Bioware needs to start thinking outside the box ... for once ... and not further clone failed systems.
Exactly.

Quote: Originally Posted by Fierystrike View Post
Wrong, new people to this game are discouraged from doing anything because they can't directly join their friends without first gearig up(according to you).
Again, do you require people who play sports to "not gear up" before they can compete?

To put it in more relevant terms, does a online FPS require gear ups to play? Some of the best FPS games don't work by progressive gear-ups. Even the ones that do give gear rewards (BF3) don't give drastically better gear but simply different gear. A Starter machine gun kills you just as dead as a high rank machine gun. The differences are so minor as to be cosmetic or personal taste.

If I had the ability to gain gear that gave me 10% more damage to my saber throw vs 10% more damage to my smash; granted a little more health or even some special perk ability; that doesn't nearly equate to the expertise system while it still gives me a reason to farm pvp rewards. You can design gear which is interesting and worth getting but doesn't have to bracket out people like PvE gear does.

PvP is NOT PvE, it is silly to treat them the same.

Artthen's Avatar


Artthen
02.03.2012 , 03:31 AM | #1250
Because this thread has exceeded our threshold for maximum thread length, a new version has been created here. Please continue discussion within the new thread. Thanks!