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What's wrong with Revan/Vitiate story

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
What's wrong with Revan/Vitiate story

OverDrone's Avatar


OverDrone
12.09.2018 , 09:53 PM | #1
Hi All!
I have been thinking a lot about what went wrong with SWTOR story. Specially in light of solid rich KOTOR 1,2 story.
In K1,2 Revan is a charismatic brilliant strategist and a leader. Galaxy level leader.
In SWTOR Revan is some crazy dude always screwing things up
  1. Spoiler
  2. Spoiler
I was reading some lore to understand when it went wrong. And found one moment:
Revan discovers Star Forge (I'm not sure about chronology. At this moment Revan visited some Star Maps and was aware of Star Forge existence for sure)
Revan unconditionally defeated Mandalorians.
Hid Mandalore's mask, strip mandalorians of weapon and armor to prevent this from ever happening in any forseeable future.
Discovered Sith conspiracy from dying Mandalore that brought Mandalorian Wars.
Discovered Nathema, a place where Vitiate first performed his ritual and became immortal.
What our brilliant strategist, who has no problem sacrificing half the fleet to win the war, decides to do next?
Infiltrate hostile territory HIMSELF with a help of couple of friends!
Then even more crazy:
He decides to assassinate Emperor HIMSELF with a help of couple of friends AGAIN!
Really? Didn't it occur to him that something might go wrong and better have some contigency plan?
I can't imagine how great tactician that raised from simple jedi knight to a whole republic army commander (earning every promotion with countless victories) could do something so stupid.
I'm not buying to the whole dark side corruption, ego, overconfident crap. When somebody gains that much power he starts sacrificing other lives left and right and value self well being more than anything else. More power you have - more you force others to do the job (killing/dying) for you. Even Darth Acina from KOTET acknowledges that:
Quote:
Among the sith being on the front lines just makes it easier for someone to stub you in the back
Yes, Revan is not a sith at that time. But he is very close judging by his actions.
Again, maybe I'm contradicting official lore but no Vitiate's influence/corruption yet. It's more like Star Forge to blame.
Real Revan, victorian of Mandalorian wars and commander of big part of ENTIRE REPUBLIC FORCES would probably do:
  1. Send Malak or other jedi (other spy, hired gun, you name it), better several, even more better millions of mini spying drones to spy on Sith empire
  2. Carefully analise received intel
  3. Starts huge political/propaganda campaign amoung entire Republic, jedi order, hell even amoung survived mandalorians about new even bigger real threat
  4. Gain control of Star Forge if he didn't do it already (not sure about official chronology)
  5. Using combined Republic/Jedi/Mando/Star Forge Droid armada unleash it's full power on unsuspecting Dromund Kaas
  6. Win the war in couple of weeks, accept unconditional sith empire surrender.
  7. Publicly execute the Sith emperor. Somehow make sure he stays dead or at least without followers.
  8. Being familliar wtih sad rakata race's fate dismantle Star Forge for good
  9. Do not hand over power to Republic senate with excuse of "future possible threats like sith empire"
  10. Rule the galaxy until overthrown/tired/bored/dead whichever comes first
I hope you agree with me that hardest part of the plan starts AFTER empire's defeat.
Yes, emperor might be quite a thorn in a side (immortal after all) but you even don't have to kill him. Just imprison and humiliate him like you've done with Mandalore. There is no emperor without empire.
Yes it might be tempting to keep Star Forge
Yes it might be very hard to keep a galaxy ruler position for long
But all this a whole other story we would never hear because some guys needed to exploit KOTOR franshise and make MMO.

fughsa's Avatar


fughsa
12.21.2018 , 02:49 AM | #2
Ok lets just get the timeline kinda sorta right enough to start and im assuming at least familiarity with both kotor games, reading the wiki for "Revan" (or reading the book) and beating all content up to the war for iokath. Now Vitiate sees that the time for the sith to return is close and wants to weaken the republic before then. Sith agents coerce Mandalore the ultimate to invade the republic to test their strength as fighting is what mandalorians like to do so they attack and kill billions to force the entire republic to fight them. Revan leads the jedi that choose to fight in the war to final victory but at the cost of almost all the forces he led either following him to the dark side or dying at malachor V. He finds out that the sith were behind the mandalorian aggression before killing mandalore and hiding his helmet to prevent another mandalore from rising. Trayus academy was an old sith empire outpost that revan discovered on malachor V and he and malak went searching for the rest of the empire. They found it and were led into a trap where vitiate corrupted both of them to lead their forces against the republic to further soften it for his empire. He told them that the star forge could help them muster the forces to defeat the republic and so off they went to find it with both claiming the Darth title now.

Revan and malak however forgot of their encounter with vitiate and believed that they were simply acting of their own accord. Through the star maps they found the star forge and replicated the republic ships left in their fleet to overwhelm the republic. The jedi and republic soliders that fought with him became dark jedi and sith soldiers to spread revan's sith empire throughout the galaxy. Revan did somehow remember the encounter with vitiate and left all the factories and shipyards he would need to fight against the vitiate's empire intact as he fought the republic. As the star forge fed on the dark side until it consumed the one commanding it. He did not want to rely on a machine that would cause his destruction (an opinion he later decides to ignore...twice). GO-TO and dark bastila attest to his tactics and reasoning in kotor 2 btw. But malak wasnt as strong willed as revan, betrayed him and kotor 1 happens. Malak see did not remember the sith emperor and simply began destroying all that looked at him wrong. He is slain by a redeemed but memory challenged revan. Revan and bastila then marry laying the seeds (hehe) for Satele and Theron to exist and his memories of the emperor begin to finally resurface again and he sets off to fight him after ensuring that canderous ordo will be the next mandalore.

So he goes once more to nathema and is captured by a dark council member and scourge. He gets to enjoy a few years in prison with the occasional chat with scourge while the jedi continue to die in the republic ala kotor 2. So the jedi exile eventually is led onto revan's trail by T3 and bastila. She also finds nathema as T3 had escaped with the ebon hawk when revan was captured and somehow the exile meets scourge? Its been awhile since i read "revan" so yeah bit fuzzy on the middle parts. Eventually Surrik, Scourge, and Revan go to fight vitiate as they all possess enough will of their own to prevent instant corruption but Scourge has a vision that they will not succeed and kills surrik during the fight with vitiate to prove his loyalty long enough to find the one that WILL defeat vitiate. Revan is imprisoned and tortured by the dread masters for 300 years while Tenebrae begins to set up his "eternal empire".

Revan is rescued by the pub classes with the help of surrik's ghost and he sets off for the foundry. He is contacted by the revanites who give him back his mask around this time but he doesnt use them as an army yet. HK-47 helps set up the extermination droids at the foundry and malgus recruits the imp classes to kill revan and take the foundry for the empire (malgus' empire that is). At this time revan is not in a great mental place after being tortured and fed upon by the emperor for centuries and is willing to kill the whole empire to prevent vitiate from repeating nathema on a galactic scale. He is falls into darkness before being defeated by the imp strike team and quotes malak's last words before partially dying. The jedi knight meets scourge after and defeats the true voice of the emperor severely weaking vitiate but not killing him as his soul was busy also being valkorian. But as light ghost revan says that only part of him was ready to be one with the force the part that didnt kept revan's body moving and formed the revanites into an army to resurrect and permanently kill vitiate. However this time revan had neither an empire of his own or close allies to rely upon and being only his darker half he could only see his revenge instead of what was actually a trap.

Failing to decapitate republic and imperial leadership over rishii dark revan is defeated but not before empowering vitiate from all the death he caused with his machinations through the revanites. The light half of revan confronts the dark and they agree to merge once more to be simply revan again. And he issues some spooky warning before going off to do ghost things. Vitiate absorbs ziost and finally achieves the power to exist as an almost permanent force entity, finally shedding the need for a body to contain his essence. So he goes back to valkorian before being killed by an outlander. Kotfe and kotet happen and Tenebrae is killed in a force limbo as his soul fails to take the outlander's body. So revan was unintentionally needed to make tenebrae strong enough that he would make himself vulnerable at the last moment. I think revan has a decent enough arc and nothing that happens to him over the course of the game breaks from his character...that being said...

People love Revan because HE IS A MARY SUE. Name one thing he sucks at before his swtor appearances. Well one probably cant as he is apparently the greatest, strongest, cunningest, smartest, handsomest, wisest jedi/sith to ever wear a robe. And he can understand every alien language under the galactic core cuz why not. People like to say that revan should have just been freed, killed vitiate permanently and everyone can just go home or some such. Well vitiate let him be freed or at least didnt care anymore now that zakuul was established and the eternal fleet was under his control. Revan was not strong or balanced enough upon his second prison break to succeed at simply fighting the empire single handed. And so he was defeated and the burden of ending vitiate was left to new heroes. Twice. The first time he couldnt do enough introspection to see that maybe exterminating the ENTIRE empire was a bit dark. And would have fueled a premature ziost scenario from the loss of life and allowed valkorian to rule the galaxy as he would have no outlander to kill him and only the republic to fight.

Now some direct clarifications
1. Revan had VERY little in common with the jedi that didnt fight in the mandalorian wars after malachor V so would definitely not go looking to ask for their help or the republic forces that were not loyal to him. Atton Rand and HK-47 tell of revan's tactics when it came to dealing with jedi and it involved very little asking.

2. Only he and malak went to dromund kaas as they were the strongest and their forces were not in the best of shape by the end of the war and neither had any true concrete knowledge of what they would find. They were following a trail of sithy bread crumbs not intentionally looking for galaxy threatening empires.

3. The sith empire was READY to invade. They were also technologically superior to the republic, had a larger military, dozens of times more sith than were jedi (or dark jedi) and were unified under the emperor where the republic was enjoying the fallout of the mandalorian wars. Revan delays the invasion when he attacks again after kotor 2 and vitiate leaves governance to the dark council for a few hundred years more as he is paranoid of his own permanent death.

4. Vitiate tells revan and malak where to look for the star maps that lead to the star forge so revan cant just find the station without being corrupted by vitiate. Continuing that point is that his forces or the republic's are no match for empire's at this time even united. And the mandalorians have literally no navy or operational heavy weaponry so they are no use unless the republic arms them. *Spoiler* they wouldnt and couldnt.

5. I love kotor 1, 2, heck even swtor at times. But Kotor was a PART of revan's whole life and to assume from the time as him fighting his old corrupted army that he could just defeat vitiate as easy as he did malak is odd and lacking evidence or reasoning as to how he wouldnt fail as he did the first time.

6. Revan led from the front or at least example so sending endless legions of pawns to fight seems only a tad out of character and very unlikely to work. Hence his failure over rishii and at yavin as he only personally fought as a last resort. Or think saresh trying to command the alliance. We all know she isnt going to fist fight arcann or vaylin to the death as the person at the top needs to be capable and willing to fighting their foes personally. Hence why acina puts herself on the frontlines of iokath for the empire.

7. This is i think a stronger argument or point or whatever. Revan might have been able to fight the emperor had he not been betrayed by malak. He could have had the forces of the forge and the resources of the republic to rebuild and fortify before vitiate learned of his betrayal. Still it would be dark vs dark and since revan's forces shared a very similar philosophy to the empire it would be tough to see a reason why they would battle to the death rather than just merge empires. Before you say let them all know about vitiate's ritual revan took a long time to remember that fact and the sith empire was fanatically loyal to vitiate and would be very unlikely to believe some usurper's rumours.

So yeah there is really nothing wrong with Revan's story, it just did not end how you wanted it to.

(If I missed something that makes everything above wrong please let me know as i would be very curious to know what that would be!)

ApollosNight's Avatar


ApollosNight
12.25.2018 , 12:18 AM | #3
I donít think anything is wrong with his story really. How sane would you be if you were tortured in your soul for 300 years?

Mzuta's Avatar


Mzuta
01.27.2019 , 12:42 AM | #4
/
. At this time revan is not in a great mental place after being tortured and fed upon by the emperor for centuries you mean the emperor and the dread masters. also the exile visits bastilla. retraces revans steps finds the ebon hawk still on nathema with t3 goes to kass disguised as a bounty hunter pays sechel for info to meet scourge. revan starts influencing scourge/ teaching scourge about the force and bluffs to him that his friends are coming to free him. scourge meets meetra. they meet in the cave where she hid her jedi robes. she senses scourge and her and t3 dismantle scourges soldiers. as he did not come alone as instructed. explains that he's gonna help her. before they free revan scourge sets up darth nyriss as a traitor. imperial guard purge the dark council. scourge, meetra and t3 go to free revan, he's given his old mask and all his old memories flood back and revan goes out cold except for his rapid eye movement. electrocuted t3 flies down the steps and slams hard into a wall. darth nyriss overwhelms them , both scourge and meetra dodge her sith lighting. until meetra could no longer. revan pops up absorbs the sith lighting and says to darth nyriss " i am revan reborn and before me you are nothing" and shoots the lightning back at her turning nyriss to ash. they escape go back to the cave meetra gears up t3 shows revan the holo of bastila with their baby. revan teaches scourge how to have visions. scourge has a vision of someone striking down the emperor but the face is not clear.1st thing in the morning they invade the emperors citadel. with the majority of the imperial honor guard keeping the peace. there only was a light presence. they fight their way to the throne room. the emperor was waiting. meetra and revan are fighting with t3. t3 eat lighting from the emperor and explodes revan force pushes the emperor and responds with lightning of his own. scourge sees visions of all possible endings to the fight and (relives the imprint suffering that the emperor left him after their first meeting) in all possible futures they all die save one and that instance he see's the face of the person that will strike down the emperor. its not revan its the hero of tython. revan having the advantage about to finish vitiate ...in that instance betrayal strikes. scourge stabs meetra through the back killing her. the shock was the opening vitiate needed. he hit revan with powerful force lighting and singed revans mask to his face as well as burned through out his body. the rest you guys have pretty well covered. too bad we never got the emperor from the revan novel with his dead eyes that were like pools of the darkside

Ardrossan's Avatar


Ardrossan
01.27.2019 , 12:40 PM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by OverDrone View Post
Hi All!
He decides to assassinate Emperor HIMSELF with a help of couple of friends AGAIN!
Really? Didn't it occur to him that something might go wrong and better have some contigency plan?
I can't imagine how great tactician that raised from simple jedi knight to a whole republic army commander (earning every promotion with countless victories) could do something so stupid.
He had contingencies, they just weren't particularly good ones judging from kotor2. He tried to make some alliances with the mandos and provide some kind of early warning system for the Republic, but he didn't count on the alliances needing to hold for 300 years, and he left the Republic while it was still trying to put itself back together.

I headcanon that the initial mindrubbing by the Emperor gave him brain damage, which got exacerbated when the Jedi pulled the same stunt later. In Kotor 1 and 2 we hear about all these impressive strategies Revan is supposed to have done, but they're all from the original mandalorian wars. In the first game, on the LS ending [which became canon], he basically rejects his past and tries to start fresh, which is great and all, but it means he lost a lot of his strategy and cunning. He still had all his powers, but it was left to characters who knew him at the time to tell us how smart he was; Revan as a PC is basically being jerked around from one battleground to another.

In some ways, this makes him a more consistent character through the Revan novel and the stuff in this game, because the portrayal is one of a crazy force-user obsessed with destroying his abuser at all cost, not the brilliant general who - from depictions in Kotor2 - also had no moral qualms about sacrificing whole battalions, but made sure they would be worth something. The Revan that people talk about in Kotor1 and 2 wouldn't have inadvertently woken up the Emperor on Yavin because it's not the same guy [you can throw in the whole Good Revan and Bad Revan thing too if you want; I just think brain damage from mental domination is easier to swallow].

Ultimately, I don't really care anymore about Revan, or the Exile, or any of the Kotor 1 and 2 lore [though I do like that BW, usually averse to using stuff from K2, recycled the living machine planet that Obsidian came up with]. That ship has sailed, and while it would have been great if they hadn't screwed up his story, the novel and resulting retcon did that well before he got screwed over in this game.

irrevelant's Avatar


irrevelant
01.29.2019 , 05:39 AM | #6
Well it's not that bad. I mean it started as pathetic on Imperial side, but the Shadow of Revan tried to make up for it a bit. Still a legend like him should have gone down as a legend. I think it would have been more apropiate, if he joins the Alliance, and takes mayor role until the very end of the Eternal Throne questline. He would have simply dissappeared after the Emperor's death stating. "My job is finally finished. I can finally return to the force."

VelvetSanity's Avatar


VelvetSanity
01.29.2019 , 11:18 AM | #7
IMO, the entire problem with the Revan/Vitiate story is that they did it in SWTOR as a prequel to Zakuul instead of making KOTOR 3 for the whole Zakuul storyline.
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Mzuta's Avatar


Mzuta
02.11.2019 , 04:28 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by VelvetSanity View Post
IMO, the entire problem with the Revan/Vitiate story is that they did it in SWTOR as a prequel to Zakuul instead of making KOTOR 3 for the whole Zakuul storyline.
I remember the rumor going around the revan was zildrog. Now imagine if like you said we skipped the revan arc in swtor and he instead was someone we would free during the fallen empire story arc.

Also I wonder how much revan was aware of valkorion. he was powerful enough to influence the emperor's mind while he was being tortured by the dread masters.

After playing the steamline eternal throne I wonder how many concepts were left unused due to all the people complaining about kotfe.

Also I still believe it would have been great to have similar stories fro smugglers and agents sneaking onto zakuul or going undercover to get info you get to see the seedy old world as the agent working for Lana beniko sneaking into the zakuulan underworld culture via he heralds of zildrog. You do missions for The Exalted to expand their power in the underworld including entering the eternal championship. Winning the championship for the heralds would unlock the title "champion of zildrog". Eventually through your action the cultists begin to believe that you are really zildrogs chosen, not wanting to lose power the exalted leads you into a trap. You defeat the knight captain's but then are quickly defeated by arcann (pre facial scarring and mask) then you are frozen in carbonite.

The smuggler would have you work for theron shan going undercover as a procurer of illicit goods for indo zall and it would expose you to the wealthy elite on zakuul. Zall would later turn on you last boss would be an exarch prototype with mechanics having you to hit consoles to short circuit it similar to the star fortress and the fight on asylum with arcann.) You end up being juggled by thexan using the force and knocked out only to be frozen in carbonite. and you would end up frozen in carbonite.

Bounty hunters and Troopers defending core words from invasion ending up with you being frozen in carbonite . Bounty hunter and trooper story takes place during the twin conqueror invasion of the core words. Last battle for each before carbonite freezing would be the battle of dromund kaas and the battle of coruscant. Flashpoints that would be similar to the invasion of tython and korriban.

Then the non force users join the alliance later. depending on your alignment the commander would be dark or light or balanced. You as the emissary would go on recruitment missions etc. you would still have the star fortresses. But anything with your character using the force (if they are not a force user) would be omitted. at the end with your character and you and senya/ arcann etc. you could protect the commander as they fight with valkorion and fight maybe an exarch.

In order The smuggler & agent stories would be first (although they would span from kotfe into kotet and later ossus) as they would be gathering intel for their respective sides. Agent depending on how your class story ending might be also collecting info for the republic. Next the bounty hunter and trooper during the twin hunters invasion of the outer rim then core worlds. Then comes the story we have for our force user from kotfe to kotet. after our non force users get an extra option to leave the alliance as well as becoming a saboteur or loyalist. Leaving the alliance though would carry the consequence of losing access to the players gained in kotet and kotor not aligned with the faction you're joining although you could still access them in a new companion terminal at carrick or vaiken but they will have no further impact on your story. Again this is all IMO of course.

Swingkittie's Avatar


Swingkittie
02.13.2019 , 09:05 PM | #9
I am curious when they finally return Scourge, since he apparently went totally mute during Shadow of Revan, to explain to my Jedi Knight how his vision played out. If you recall in the knights story when you confront Vitiate, if you go light side Scourge is very upset and even if you go dark side he still doesn't sense the Emperor's death. So his vision that he went with before betraying Revan appears to have been wrong - that is unless they do tie it in with the Zakuul/Eternal Throne story.

I honestly like the description of the Emperor in the book Revan more than this game. The multiple voices he had, the black eyes, the way he used his power was far more scarier and evil. He used the force to torture people with his very thought like when he gave Scourge a mere taste of that power and it was enough to make Scourge fall down in excruciating pain.
Never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line!

Mzuta's Avatar


Mzuta
03.06.2019 , 09:24 AM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by Swingkittie View Post
I am curious when they finally return Scourge, since he apparently went totally mute during Shadow of Revan, to explain to my Jedi Knight how his vision played out. If you recall in the knights story when you confront Vitiate, if you go light side Scourge is very upset and even if you go dark side he still doesn't sense the Emperor's death. So his vision that he went with before betraying Revan appears to have been wrong - that is unless they do tie it in with the Zakuul/Eternal Throne story.

I honestly like the description of the Emperor in the book Revan more than this game. The multiple voices he had, the black eyes, the way he used his power was far more scarier and evil. He used the force to torture people with his very thought like when he gave Scourge a mere taste of that power and it was enough to make Scourge fall down in excruciating pain.
ironically there is some swtor game art that with valkorion with black eyes. I just imagine his eyes pitch black and when he uses the darkside something like the dread portals emanating from them. Also I wish that when the jedi knight strike team went to strike down the emperor (the true voice) instead of lightning they he should have lifted a hand and a darkside aura should have surrounded all of their heads and (the animation would be like when we our characters touch the ancient with relics on yavin 4 (like the helm of naga sadow, tablet of marka ragnos or the skull on the altar of the ancient threat) the characters would hold their heads like a presence is invading their mind and throw them back and they would be out cold.
Spoiler