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I am so angry at the Sith warrior main story. (Spoiler inside)

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
I am so angry at the Sith warrior main story. (Spoiler inside)

KendraP's Avatar


KendraP
07.28.2020 , 01:46 PM | #11
Maybe we should just call everyone it to avoid both gender inflammation and potential confusion over plural vs singular. "Can you kill Quinn?" "Can you kill him?" "Can you kill them?" "Can you kill it?" Oh how language evolves.

Sorry couldn't resist - /sarcasm if it wasn't obvious, I find the whole argument silly.

eldefail's Avatar


eldefail
07.29.2020 , 12:07 PM | #12
This "gender neutral pronouns/don't assume Quinn's gender" bs is the funniest crap I've read all day.

@OP I had a similar issue being forced to keep him. At least I got to force choke him. I kind of had to headcanon it that he's too valuable alive and owes the warrior his life and more importantly, his career! In development you could kill off certain companions but players didn't like having to go forever without a healer or messing with their crew skills. Instead of offering substitute companions (or just outfit the ship droid to replace them) it was probably cheaper to just get rid of those dialog options. So now your by the book bounty hunter can't say no to Gault and the warrior can't punish Quinn.
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Severith's Avatar


Severith
09.09.2020 , 08:25 AM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by ceryxp View Post
One can not misgender by using gender neutral pronouns. They are simply not specifying a gender. That is quite different from gendering someone with a gendered pronoun that does not align with that person's gender. When someone has identified their gender and their preferred pronouns it is polite to use those pronouns, but continuing to use gender neutral pronouns is not the same as misgendering someone, and most certainly not the same as continuing to misgender someone after they have identified their gender and pronouns. People who do not align with the gender binary often feel more comfortable using gender neutral pronouns rather than assuming a person's gender based upon their gender expression.

It can not be rude to refer to a video game NPC by a gender neutral pronoun. That would be like someone getting angry because someone called their car a "she" when the owner has decided that the car is a "he." While Quinn is referenced with male gender pronouns throughout the game, when the game launched it catered solely to the heteronormative, cisgender crowd. All characters of male sex were a "he," and all characters of female sex were a "she." But sex is not gender. While several other BioWare games are much more inclusive, for example the mono-sexual and mono-gendered Asari in Mass Effect, and Cremisius "Krem" Aclassi from Dragon Age, a transgender character, SWTOR was not very inclusive at launch. Some progress has been made with the inclusion of same-sex romances, but the game steers quite far from the topic of gender. Characters are identified by their sex and within the context of the game sex is a binary (except for Hutts). But sex is not gender, and deciding on gender based upon sex can lead to misgendering.

The use of "they" as a singular, gender neutral pronoun is not a new convention in English. "They" has been in use as a singular pronoun consistently since the late 1300's. From Geoffrey Chaucer's The Canterbury Tales in the later decades of the 14th century, to Shakespeare's Hamlet around 1600, Jane Austin's Pride and Prejudice in 1813, to Emily Dickinson in 1881 when they wrote: "Almost anyone under the circumstances would have doubted if [the letter] were theirs, or indeed if they were themself." The usage of "they," "their," and even "themself" as singular, gender neutral pronouns is not new; only their use as non-binary pronouns is new. It was only in the mid- to late-18th century that male pronouns, "he" and "him," began seeing usage as gender neutral pronouns, but studies have shown that when "he" or "him" is used as a gender neutral the listener does not hear it as gender neutral, instead they think about a man. As reported by The Guardian, a study published in 2019 found that using gender neutral terms reduced gender biases that favor men and produced more favorable attitudes towards women and LGBTQ+ people[1].
The Guardian is an extremely biased source to quote from. From Wikipedia "The paper's readership is generally on the mainstream left of British political opinion, and its reputation as a platform for social liberal and left-wing editorial has led to the use of the "Guardian reader" and "Guardianista" as often-pejorative epithets for those of left-leaning or "politically correct" tendencies."

I talk to strangers on a daily basis, both as part of my job and my social life. Except in perhaps some extremist social circles, more offense is caused by intentionally "gender neutering" an individual then is caused by the accidental misgendering of an individual. "Regular" people are going to think of you as a weirdo if you insist on tiptoeing around their gender. They're not going to respect you, because you've just disrespected them. If someone doesn't present as their chosen gender well, it is on them to somehow indicate which pronoun they prefer to be referred to. A polite introduction goes a really long way.

The real question is, in a room full of 100 people, why aren't you concerned with offending 99 of those people, but insist that offending that one person is somehow the worst thing that could possibly happen? Why are you willing to question the gender of 99 people, who give you no reason to question their gender?

Quinn presents himself as a man, and doesn't indicate in any way, shape, or form that he is not a man. He's a well written character, and at least deserves enough respect to be called by his chosen gender.

RikuvonDrake's Avatar


RikuvonDrake
09.09.2020 , 08:28 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by eldefail View Post
This "gender neutral pronouns/don't assume Quinn's gender" bs is the funniest crap I've read all day.
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Quote: Originally Posted by Severith View Post
Quinn presents himself as a man, and doesn't indicate in any way, shape, or form that he is not a man. He's a well written character, and at least deserves enough respect to be called by his chosen gender.
clearly you are making a mistake here, its irrelevant what Quinn wants to define himself as, whats important is what this troll wants to define him as :P

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Bocel's Avatar


Bocel
09.22.2020 , 11:59 AM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Varlak View Post
I kill people because they have failed to complete a task but I will let live someone who tried to kill me and worst. I'll keep him as an allied.

If I was a light side sith I might be able to see a reason to let him live, but keeping him on my ship ?

Sure I can sit him and don't even send him on crew mission. But every time I come aboard my ship I see his face and it makes me rage.
I completely get your frustration. Can't stand that annoying traitor face and still have him on my ship
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Hadsil's Avatar


Hadsil
09.30.2020 , 08:49 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by LD_Little_Dragon View Post
That is an outdated way of thinking. Language changes and evolves. In modern society I would say it is actually rude to use he/him to refer to a person who's gender is unknown to you. Acting as though everyone is male unless you are told otherwise can annoying. I don't bother correcting people who call me 'dude' or 'man' in chat, but too much of that sort of assumption being normal gets tiresome.

https://public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-...singular-they/

In this particular case it might not be technically correct to have used 'when they return' instead of 'when he returns', but it doesn't really matter.
It's not outdated. It's only a problem for the easily offended who insist everyone else speak the way they want.

ceryxp's Avatar


ceryxp
09.30.2020 , 10:04 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Hadsil View Post
It's not outdated. It's only a problem for the easily offended who insist everyone else speak the way they want.
And yet the ones who seem most offended are the ones who want the gendered pronouns. After all, this all started because someone decided to correct me when I used a gender neutral pronoun. Just look at the second, third, and fourth comments above yours.
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Fylimar's Avatar


Fylimar
10.27.2020 , 11:38 AM | #18
Ah - Malavai Quinn ... where to begin?

I'm playing a female SW, light side and romanced Quinn. I was so mad at his betrayal that I wanted to kill him. He is now parked on my ship with no chance of ever getting talked to again. I would have preferred to be able to get rid of him or at least punish him in some significant way - maybe end his career or something like that.
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turbomagnus's Avatar


turbomagnus
10.27.2020 , 01:53 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Fylimar View Post
Ah - Malavai Quinn ... where to begin?

I'm playing a female SW, light side and romanced Quinn. I was so mad at his betrayal that I wanted to kill him. He is now parked on my ship with no chance of ever getting talked to again. I would have preferred to be able to get rid of him or at least punish him in some significant way - maybe end his career or something like that.
You unfortunately have to tolerate his presence due to meta-issues, at least until you reach the "Knights" expansions.
(They decided not to allow permanently killing companions, Quinn in particular, because originally he was the Warrior's only healer and by the time they removed role-locks they were already done with the base game and doing expansions)
The good news is
Spoiler

Fylimar's Avatar


Fylimar
10.28.2020 , 11:25 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by turbomagnus View Post
You unfortunately have to tolerate his presence due to meta-issues, at least until you reach the "Knights" expansions.
(They decided not to allow permanently killing companions, Quinn in particular, because originally he was the Warrior's only healer and by the time they removed role-locks they were already done with the base game and doing expansions)
The good news is
Spoiler
Yeah, I know about the stuff in the spoiler - and I probably will do that. I get, why they made companions unkillable in the storyline, but I would have preferred it otherwise.
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